GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: IQRaceworks on June 07, 2015, 03:04:03 PM
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I've ran about 200 pellets through my new RWS 34. I'm using RWS super dome pellet, and my groups at 20yds are around dime size or less. I shoot on a bench with the rifle sitting on a soft sand bag shooting bag...with the rifle balanced on the bag that I have right in front of the trigger guard. I can get 9 or 10 shots that are all almost touching each other....and then I'll get one that is 1-1.5" off....could be high, low, left, or right. Then the next 9 or 10 shots are all right on target again.
Why causes those flyers? 1.5" off at 20yrds is huge......
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It could be you.
Different pull of the trigger for some reason or lost focus.
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It could be a damaged pellet, or under/over sized, or under/over weight.... Unless it's your hold, my guess would be pellet inconsistency....
Bob
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No more shooting jumpers from a sand bag for me! I had the same problem and switched to shooting off my Trigger stick. Now the only flyer's I have are the ones I cause myself. Because of an old arm and wrist injury I can not use the artillery hold shooting off the bag with my gun resting on my hand. Today I shot a three shot group one hole at 50 yards with my AA Pro Sport. If you have a Chrony you can check the FPS and see how close they are. This could also affect the flyer's.
Glen
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The list of possible causes is long, starting with the amount of lubricants in the rifle, the type and condition of the pellets, and ending with the scope internals. And that's without even considering the external factors like wind, your breathing or trigger pull. I hope some other shooters will pipe in with their favorites. Finding the real culprit may be a daunting and protracted process of eliminating one factor after another.
I'd start with these question. Do you visually check every pellet for deformation in the skirt before you load them? Do you feel that some pellets fit more snugly or loosely in the chamber than others? Can you correlate those with your flyers?
BTW, 200 pellets through a new rifle is usually not enough to break it in well. I noticed my D34 groups settling down after about 1000 shots. Also, despite the "family ties", my RWS D34 .177 did not like RWS pellets at all. You may want to try some of the JSB pellets that work best for me.
And finally, sometimes a flyer is just a flyer for no rhyme or reason and there is nothing you can do about it.
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Everything above could cause your flyers. I have the same problem, but would bet 99% of the time it's me.
Tom
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Flyers can be caused by all the factors mentioned in the above posts. The shooter is often responsible as it can be challenging to execute each and every shot the same way: breathing, hold consistency, trigger consistency, follow through. Add to that the problem of pellet to pellet head size consistency, meaning not all pellets in a given tin are the head size stamped on the tin (see, for example, http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=91927.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=91927.0) http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=82839.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=82839.0)) and pellet weight consistency, meaning not all pellets in a given tin weigh the same.
Even when shooting technique is mastered, it's hard to be assured that the pellet itself will go where it is supposed to. In fact it's a wonder that tight groups at distance are reported at all, let alone as often as they are.
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GREMLINS!
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Dang UFO's I say ;)
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Dang UFO's I say ;)
That's what tinfoil hats are for. ;D
Tom
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It could just be the pellet choice. Flyers from one variety of pellets doesn't necessarily indicate a problem with the gun or the shooter. Try different pellets and keep practicing.
Good luck and have fun.
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Doesn't sound like a rifle problem. More likely pellets but it can be anything. I think the biggest accuracy issue is wind. Who knows how many rifles have been sent back to Pyramyd Air due to people shooting in windy conditions and blaming the rifle. Even the slightest wind can have a big effect. If you don't believe me take notes on you shooting session for a period of time and include wind conditions. Sure the pellet gets to the target quick but it doesn't take much for the little, light pellet to be sent off course.
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Having a bad hair day, sometimes you can over focus on your target to the point of frustration and then the shots go everywhere. Just walk away and try later. I have days like that and it's not the end of the world or the rifle. Most of the time it's me and not the gun. Tomorrow will be a better day. Good luck and have fun. :D
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Me, or not holding my mouth right.
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!. Check skirts for dings -- see if they roll smoothly in a glass ashtray,
2. Seat pellets with seating tool,
3. Put the stock on the rest gently -- even a small bump putting a break barrel on the rest can loosen the breech,
4. Make sure the rest is solid with no tendency to "rock" the rest on recoil,
5. Try a shake of baby powder, or a used clothes dryer fabric softener sheet twixt the forestock, and finally . . .
6. Switch pellets.
My experience is that RWS Superdomes, while performing well in CO2 bolt guns, are suboptimal in almost every springer, including my Dianna 34 in .22 cal. Pellets with a softer skirt, particularly if you seat them carefully, should eliminate most of your flyers. A properly seated JSB Exact or Beeman FTS is almost sure to outperform the RWS Superdome in any springer. My favorite seating tool is a plastic swizzle stick with a small round ball on the end.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/index.php/topic,19353.0.html (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/index.php/topic,19353.0.html)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19353.0;attach=15730;image)
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Ian,
I agree with all of the above and may I suggest: Specify a specific "trash target" on each target sheet - A place where suspect sub-standard pellets are deliberately directed. After examining each pellet and properly seating it, those that have deformed skirts or poor fit can be carefully and intentionally shot at the "trash target". You could even designate two "trash targets", one for deformed pellets and one for poor fitting pellets. After each shooting session, compare the results of the "trash targets" with the targets representing the preferred pellets - Let us know if you learn anything.
JSB's work best in my D460 22 cal.
AR
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99% of the time my flyers are caused by the dummy runnin' the trigger........ :-[
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I know this is not a scientific test but.
I have a new (to me) .25 Marauder.
I always get an occasional flier with Benjamin 27.8 grain pellets.
Not so with the JSB with have a larger head and skirt.
Today I was doing a test where I had to remove the scope and bolt from the rifle and as long as the bolt was out, I ran three wet swabs (goo-b-gone) through the bore followed by three dry ones.
I put the bolt and scope back on the rifle and loaded one magazine with 8 Benjamin 27.8 grain pellets.
(I will shoot more when my new scope is here on Thursday).
The group you see measures .430 edge to edge at 20 yards (sorry, I live in the city)
Subtracting .250 for pellet size that gives us a .180 group.
I say again, that is eight shots.
When you get fliers......swab the barrel.
IMHO;)
(http://i1356.photobucket.com/albums/q733/barnydaddy/.25%20Marauder%20Clean%20Barrel_zpsny7eesnq.jpg) (http://s1356.photobucket.com/user/barnydaddy/media/.25%20Marauder%20Clean%20Barrel_zpsny7eesnq.jpg.html)
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Some call it hand loading , some call it reloading . In any case I'm 76 and been doing it since I was 16 . I have tried everything possible to get rid of the ever present flyer , even to the point of using the same casing . The flyer sooner or later showed up . I find air gunning the same . On any given day satisfaction or frustration. I don't shoot the powder burners any longer and 22 rifle ammo is too hard to find . I love my air rifles and flyers be darn . ------------Good Shooting to all ---------John -----AKA --Papa Smurf
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I shoot springers, front bag only, rear of stock lightly touching shoulder but free floating from bench. I commonly see the following as a big contributor to my flyers;
Not settled into the bag evenly at point of aim
I prefer my crosshairs sit naturally on the center of bullseye as opposed to setting up on the bag, then changing the angle of my rifle to line up crosshairs. If theyre not lined up, resettle into the bag rather than forcing the rifle into alignment after settling. If its close, slight front back shuffling of rifle will help re-settle into the bag on the spot. Having your rifle settled into the bag at the alignment point will give you a better chance of maintaining point of aim during the back/front recoil on the shot.
Not maintaining even pressure on the bag can result in torque that will shift point of aim/impact durung recoil
Also;
When firing the rifle, I have thumb on top of the grip area, trigger centered on index finger pad, then gradually squeeze index and thumb together. Perfect, direct alignment between the two and you have a good shot. If you get out of alignment between the two, you will be torquing/twisting the rifle and the point of aim/impact will shift during the back/front recoil resulting in a flyer
These are two of the most common for me. Being in tune to the feel of your rifle during setup can help you to recognize and correct before taking the shot.
You will begin to feel it when youre aligned and torque free. If it doesnt feel right, abort the shot and start your shot sequence over beginning with resettling into the bag. If it doesn't feel right, don't force your way through it. Springers don't react well to that ;)
Aside from these;
Breathing
Heart rate
Wind
Lack of focus
Anticipating and Plucking the trigger rather than a squeeze/surprise shot
And many more ;D
Steve
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Lack of focus
Anticipating and Plucking the trigger rather than a squeeze/surprise shot
2 biggies for me, especially the trigger program.
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Ian, after re-reading your post...I agree that 1-1.5" flyers every 9 or 10 shots is pretty radical at only 20 yards. My TX has done that when I'm starting to get lead fouling. They are radical, huge misses that make no sense on a shot where everything felt perfect.
I'm not saying that you have lead fouling, but your barrel might need a good cleaning. Did you give it a good cleaning when it was new before you shot it?
Steve
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Of course, if you don't ever want any flyers, you could just build yourself a high end PCP rail gun with an electronic remote trigger so you wouldn't even have to touch the rifle.
For me, I think there is an important difference between a true "flyer" and a "called flyer". If it's a "flyer" and you knew when you pulled the trigger it was going to be a "flyer", then it really wasn't a "flyer", was it?
Fix the easy things first. The closest thing to a precision hand load in a firearm is a properly sized, weighed, and carefully seated pellet in an air gun. Whatever else is going right (or not) eliminate the pellet as the probable cause. If you get REALLY serious about smaller groups off a gun rest on a bench (and if you have lots of extra $$$, then . . .
. . .one might consider a fore stock BR adaptor for your sporter stocks . . .
(http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/sinclairforearmx300.jpg)
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2007/05/fore-arm-adapter-for-sporters/ (http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2007/05/fore-arm-adapter-for-sporters/)
. . . a flat front BR bag . . .
(http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/p_749009463_1.jpg)
http://www.sinclairintl.com/shooting-rests-bipods/sand-bags/front-bags/edgewood-front-benchrest-bags-prod39557.aspx (http://www.sinclairintl.com/shooting-rests-bipods/sand-bags/front-bags/edgewood-front-benchrest-bags-prod39557.aspx)
. . . mounted on a solid windage and elevation-adjustable front rest . . .
(http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/l_749013850_3.jpg)
http://www.sinclairintl.com/shooting-rests-bipods/shooting-rests-tops/shooting-rests/sinclair-heavy-varmint-rests-prod57001.aspx (http://www.sinclairintl.com/shooting-rests-bipods/shooting-rests-tops/shooting-rests/sinclair-heavy-varmint-rests-prod57001.aspx)
. . . paired with a really solid rear bag.
(http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/l_749007755_1.jpg)
http://www.sinclairintl.com/shooting-rests-bipods/sand-bags/rear-bags/edgewood-rear-bag-original-prod37856.aspx (http://www.sinclairintl.com/shooting-rests-bipods/sand-bags/rear-bags/edgewood-rear-bag-original-prod37856.aspx)
After all, it's only money.
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Not trying to be a smart aleck, but "what doesn't!!"
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Not trying to be a smart aleck, but "what doesn't!!"
That reverse flyer phenomenon: when a totally ganked shot inexplicably ends up in the center of the group.
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out of phase harmonics across the shot string