GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: cclingma on May 08, 2015, 10:42:33 PM
-
I've never even touched a QB79 so I may need someone to talk me down to earth. I've read Bob's posts concerning his $200 Pcp along with other posts demonstrating the accuracy that many of these rifles produce. I've only dabbled in Pcp but Ive come to believe that aside from a good barrell, a regulator sounds like the key to consistant accuracy. So here we have what would be a inexpensive Pcp anyway, and when you add the luxury of being regulated, it seems like a must have. I realize it takes some tinkering to get to that 745fps range and a little more advanced tinkering to get into the 800s (.22 caliber). I'm a tinkerer so the phase one portion wouldn't bother me and I'd consider doing some of the valve mods. I just can't get past a $200ish regulated rifle that seems to potentially be soda can accurate way past 50 yards, maybe 80 plus. Should be absolute terror on our hardwoods squirrel population. I have a hand pump. Probably have to sell my Prod to fund this adventure if I dive in.
Ok, enable me or set me straight.
-
Don't know if I'll talk you out of one or not.
1. Will not shoot any better than it did on co2...barrel is the same either way.
2. Lot of pumping to fill 215cc's to 3K.
3. Hard to get the gun actually sealed and not leaking with air. Co2 tends to swell o-rings, air doesn't,so it's a fight to get one buttoned up with air.
4. To get the speeds you envision, will need to do some valve work, which is no big deal if you've the ability.
-
I'm not going to talk you out of it.
I've had mine for around a month. I bought it mostly to tinker with. I made a stripper for it and I will shortly be working on a partial shroud. Mine is in .177 and shoots pretty well - maybe even better with the stripper on. Biggest downside (to me) is that it's louder than I'd like.
I mostly punch paper, so I'm more interested in accuracy/shot count than power - so I may clean up the valve some but probably won't do much valve work. I ordered new o-rings for the gas block and barrel as these got buggered up when I took the gun apart to de-burr.
I think you'd be happy with purchasing one, I'm happy with mine. Oh, to clarify, I do have the Ninja Pro SHP bottle attached. As Ribbonstone noted, it does leak down some - but I'm hopping the new urethane o-rings will help.
Steve
-
Have to show my ignorance on the issue of C02 leaking vs air leaking. Hadn't even given that a thought.
I hear you on the part of air not making one of these rifles more accurate than C02. I've read guys making suggestions to try the barrell out on C02 before deciding if the rifle is a shooter. I like that way of thinking except that I don't have any C02 equipment to fuel one. I think id rather spend the money on the Ninja tank than on adapters to fit C02. Unless, maybe a paintball tank of the size that will thread directly to stock QB would be a wise accuracy testing avenue?
I understand extended pumping sessions would be in order. So far I'm acting all macho like its no big deal. Of course, the only thing Ive ever pumped up is the tiny reservoir on my Prod. But I'm young, not quite 40, and blessed with a healthy albeit not so mocho body.
-
Before taking the plunge, consider that the FDPCP and Discovery (refurbished) can be had for $160.00 and $200.00 respectively. rsterne's posts about both platforms make good reading.
If you're looking for significant power, you'll need to start with a QB78. Once you add in the tank, tank block and a new valve and you'll be up to $280 or so. I own a QB and hope to have success with my PCP conversion, so don't read this as discouragement.
-
I won't even try to talk you out of it. I'm awaiting mine as I type this.
I'm going "Maxed Out / Full Monty" on my .22, and am having it built by one of the fine members here who has had some very impressive results in tuning for accuracy, power, shot count, and efficiency.
We are expecting to see somewhere near 40 FPE with 18 gr JSB's... and squirrel head shots at 75+ yds should be so easy that they are boring.
I'm looking very forward to it's arrival,... and I'm confident the opposite holds true for the local Ground Squirrel population ;D
-
I've owned my QB 79 HPA(regulated) .177 for about a year and am very pleased with it. I've deburred, installed a cock on opening kit, installed an oversized bolt handle and did a little trigger work on it. Have not touched the valve yet. The accuracy has been predictable and when the groups open up, a cleaning will tighten them up again. I have had no issues with air leaks as of yet(just jinksed myself) and can get at least 75 consistent shots before it goes of the regulator.
I have 4 PCPs and mostly only use a hand pump. A non issue with me, helps keep me in shape:)
Overall I would say it's my favorite PCP as of now and the least expensive one I own.
-
I gave great thought to one of these already made up from ^&$@_=s but decided on the Mack 1 tuned Disco instead, no tinkering needed. My last new rifle was a Bam B-50 and it took all the tinker out of me for awhile. If your up for the challenge, go for it and keep us a breast of your progress.
-
I want try to talk you out of it because I know nothing about them. I'm a tinkerer too so I'd buy one if I had the notion to. I would not sell a Prod to fund the project because if you decide you don't like it then you would not have anything to shoot. When I build my .25 rifle I started with CO2 and then later invested in a Ninja bottle.
-
Missed the selling the P-Rod part...probably won't do that, just keep saving until you could keep both.
Not sure about the repeater versions, not having played with one (more a single shot fan than a repeater fan), but have out together a few HPA QB's. Some were a real pain to get sealed and some were no trouble at all. Seems there is enough individual variation in mass produced parts (although the new ones seem a lot better about that than the old ones).
Accuracy does change as some pellets just like being pushed fast, so what did shoot well at sedate co2 speeds may not shoot well at higher speeds, so it's more a matter of pellets than barrels. However, if it never shot great as a co2 rifle, making it run on air won't cure that. A bad .22 QB barrel seems to happen less often than a bad .22 Crosman barrel, so the odds are with you.
-
So much good stuff here that I'm not sure where to start.
QB 78 vs 79 is a tough one for me. I guess the 78 is capable of more energy but it seems like ergo/balance of the 79 would be superior. Bottle looks soooo far out in front on 78. Now if Bobs reverse tank block makes it to us the 78 seems to the winner for sure. Plus, I think the 78 can be shot on carts (I do have) for accuracy check.
Selling the Prod only kind of concerns me. I'm in a very fortunate state right now with a fleet of vintage pumpers that I love and one springer for good measure. I am a little on the line about giving up repeater for single shot.
Asking that fella that's a member here and is producing some awesome hpa QBs is another option. I love to tinker but I'm also trying to build a house. Tinker time getting consumed and his final product is exactly what I'm dreaming about.
Hmm
-
I'm thinking about this too. I had considered getting a QB78 for the additional plenum, but that would require spending the money for a tank block. I've about decided that the way to go would be a QB79 and a replacement QB78 tube to cut down when I get ready to mod it. A replacement tube is cheaper than a tank block.
-
So much good stuff here that I'm not sure where to start.
QB 78 vs 79 is a tough one for me. I guess the 78 is capable of more energy but it seems like ergo/balance of the 79 would be superior. Bottle looks soooo far out in front on 78. Now if Bobs reverse tank block makes it to us the 78 seems to the winner for sure.
It's not very hard at all to make your own reverse bottle build. I paid like $10 for the on/off and less then $10 for the 2 fittings. Just tapped the original cap for 1/8 NPT.
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=81046.0;attach=99046;image)
-
I just can't get past a $200ish regulated rifle that seems to potentially be soda can accurate way past 50 yards, maybe 80 plus.
Ok, enable me or set me straight.
Disclaimer: My QB build is a custom build that has had barrel work done to it.
That being said, it is a 1 moa rifle out to 43 yards (farthest put on paper), but I have dropped pest birds out to 80 yards with regularity.
-
I have a QB78 + Ninja bottle built by Nervoustrigger here on the GTA forums. I love it, it is a great gun. After that, I purchased a .25 AT44 QE Long. That said, for the cost involved, I'd probably save up a little more myself and look at a refurbished Hatsan AT44 rather than the QB. I see currently the refurb .177 Hatsan WE can be found for around $360. So for an extra $100 over and above the cost of the QB79+bottle, you get a repeater with a nice lever action, and a quieter rifle.
There are plenty of threads on how the AT44 performs, and simple mods/tuning that can be done to it out there. I'm just using that as a comparison based on personal experience. I'm sure the same probably holds true for an MRod refurb as well for the most part.
-
I'm thinking about this too. I had considered getting a QB78 for the additional plenum, but that would require spending the money for a tank block. I've about decided that the way to go would be a QB79 and a replacement QB78 tube to cut down when I get ready to mod it. A replacement tube is cheaper than a tank block.
That seems like some pretty sound logic.
I'm still unsure on whether I want to pursue this or not. You guys have helped me to understand what I'm potentially getting into either way.
-
I have a QB78 + Ninja bottle built by Nervoustrigger here on the GTA forums. I love it, it is a great gun. After that, I purchased a .25 AT44 QE Long. That said, for the cost involved, I'd probably save up a little more myself and look at a refurbished Hatsan AT44 rather than the QB. I see currently the refurb .177 Hatsan WE can be found for around $360. So for an extra $100 over and above the cost of the QB79+bottle, you get a repeater with a nice lever action, and a quieter rifle.
There are plenty of threads on how the AT44 performs, and simple mods/tuning that can be done to it out there. I'm just using that as a comparison based on personal experience. I'm sure the same probably holds true for an MRod refurb as well for the most part.
I also have the hatsan at44-10 qe short. It is a great shooting gun for the money. But it is a tank to carry around for a long day of hunting. I have been kicking around the idea of the reverse tank qb 78 in .22. Fairly light and affordable.
-
Hey cclingma,
I have the Hatsan AT44 Short & Long, Galatian and BAM B50/51's in addition to the QB79. Some are regulated and some not.
My opinion is to "buy the QB79 w/o hesitation" 8)
Please remember that my "point of view" comes from being able to do all the "work" necessary to modify the gun for HPA + add the stage 1 & 2 mods outlined by rstern, myself.
The QB fills a ever ............... widening niche which includes 60+ shots per fill, lightweight and great accuracy. This inexpensive gun with regulated HPA tank has a lower ES than my aftermarket regulated gun's and cannot be outshot by anything I currently own. I pump mine, which hasn't been a problem.
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n227/kirk_schwarz/Muzzle%20Brake2%20021_zpssybmn5sf.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/kirk_schwarz/media/Muzzle%20Brake2%20021_zpssybmn5sf.jpg.html)
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n227/kirk_schwarz/QB79%20Tune%20010_zpsamqddkts.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/kirk_schwarz/media/QB79%20Tune%20010_zpsamqddkts.jpg.html)
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n227/kirk_schwarz/QB79%20Tune%20009_zpsw36tdooo.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/kirk_schwarz/media/QB79%20Tune%20009_zpsw36tdooo.jpg.html)
My Two Cents .......................Kirk
-
My opinion is to "buy the QB79 w/o hesitation"
Still thinking on it. Lightweight, powerful, accurate all in one rifle does appear to be quite a find.
I don't currently have access to real machine tools. I am fortunate to have had machinist classes in the past and did some basic machine work at a former job. I do have a nice drill press and all my hand tools from my mechanic days in a factory. I think the stage one mods would be a sure thing for me and believe I could manage most of stage two.
I'm still very interested in that reverse tank 78. I appreciate the post above about making a reverse setup with common fittings but I know how particular I am and I really would want that tank right against the tube.
-
Do IT! Do IT! Do IT!
Seriously, if it doesn't work out just sell it and recoup at least most of your money. In the mean time, have fun with it and learn something.
Steve
-
Couple newbie questions about this
1. I assume you have to degas tank every time you go into the valve?
2. If 1 is correct, how do you degas?
3. Can I drill hammer for cock on opening with a good new bit in drill press or does it require end mill?
4. Can I drill end cap for RVA if desired with drill press?
-
Couple newbie questions about this
1. I assume you have to degas tank every time you go into the valve?
2. If 1 is correct, how do you degas?
3. Can I drill hammer for cock on opening with a good new bit in drill press or does it require end mill?
4. Can I drill end cap for RVA if desired with drill press?
Others should weigh in too, but I'll share my understanding.
1. Yes
2. CAREFULLY, slightly unscrew the low pressure burst disk and bleed the air out. I've done this, it works.
3. I've READ that it's almost impossible to drill due to it's hardness.
4. I don't actually know, but I would think so.
Steve
-
Couple newbie questions about this
1. I assume you have to degas tank every time you go into the valve?
2. If 1 is correct, how do you degas?
3. Can I drill hammer for cock on opening with a good new bit in drill press or does it require end mill?
4. Can I drill end cap for RVA if desired with drill press?
1- NO, you do not have to de-gas the tank - just unscrew it - I usually unscrew 1 full turn from fully seated (this releases the pin valve allowing it to close) and then dry fire 3 or 4 times (until there is no pressure on the connection) and it is easy to unscrew. If you feel resistance on the connection when unscrewing, dry fire a couple more times and you should see the pressure drop off the connection.
2 - N/A
3 - I drilled my hammer for my 78 with a drill press - if you take a grinder and just put a small "flat" where you want to drill this should put you past the case hardening and it should drill pretty easily.
4 - I drilled my end cap with a drill press - the harder part is tapping w/o breaking the tap, go slooooooow and use tapping fluid
-
Great responses. Thanks!
Would you guys recomend 1200psi regulator or 1500psi? Looks like 55fps or so difference in .22 and a few extra shots at the lower setting.
-
Great responses. Thanks!
Would you guys recomend 1200psi regulator or 1500psi? Looks like 55fps or so difference in .22 and a few extra shots at the lower setting.
I'm using the Ninja Pro V2 SHP which is factory set to 1100psi with my .177 QB79. Works great, but I was only looking for about a 12fpe gun.
Steve
-
3 thoughts, and mostly folks reject the idea, as they are more power-hungry.
Thought #1:
I post this every so often just to remind folks that there is more than one reason to HPA a .22 QB79.
You can, with no major shop tools, convert on to run on HPA and manage +200 12 foot pound shots per tank fill. Now that energy level is pretty easy to reach on co2, but with HPA would be pretty independent of seasonal temperature changes.
Idea is to have a short barrel and only let out a little “blip” of air per shot to keep it at 12 foot pounds. That’s about the same speed/energy that a well pumped up Benjamin (312/342/392) MSP manages and generations of folks have used those for hunting.
But it is ugly:
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/QB%20mods/b6cc8eab-4138-4ee3-b2fd-9d7639c831b2_zps1c4a7e0f.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/QB%20mods/b6cc8eab-4138-4ee3-b2fd-9d7639c831b2_zps1c4a7e0f.jpg.html)
Found it easier to manage that trick with 850psi out put. Even though you have to release a little more air volume per shot, you get 2150psi with of air (in a 3K fill on a 13ci tank) for regulated shooting.
When I set up an AR2078 for 12 foot pounds, could only manage 160 shots per fill. Might be that more could be eeked out, or it might be that getting a .177 up to 12 foot pounds just takes more air than getting a .22 up to 12 foot pounds.
(As an aside: getting a 5,, up to 12 foot pounds petty much split the difference between the .177’s 160 and the .22’s 205, by getting 180.)
Thought #2:
Had been running 4 HPA converted QB’s for about 6 years. Have (oddly) found that the regulated bottles have all given problems at about 5-6 years use. That’s a pretty long time., but it’s pretty predictable. What goes is the odd-sized o-rings on the regulator piston. Could be use-cycles, but it appears to just be age (and age under a compressed air/oxygen environment).
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/QB%20mods/5eac6281-c60a-455f-bc1b-9e581cc424c6.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/ribbonstone/media/QB%20mods/5eac6281-c60a-455f-bc1b-9e581cc424c6.jpg.html)
Expect to rebuild the regulator about every 4-5 year. Good news is that a rebuild kit is about $11-12. BUY ONE when you order the bottle. Just keep the rebuild kit in a dark drawer in your climate regulated house (so sunlight and excessive temps don’t degrade it) and it will get good-to-go when you need it.
Thought #3:
I’m lazy in summer. With no game to hunt, am converting my AR2078 HPA back to co2. Have some 3.5oz.co2 tanks, which are a little smaller/shorter than the 13CI HPA bottles. So long as it’s warm outside and there are not game-critters (legal) to hunt, am going to just use co2 . Might see a few out-law tweety birds fall, but so long as I’m not hunting furry things, I’d prefer co2.
So you pretty much “pays yer money n takes yer chances”….high power for fewer shots, low power for a lot of shots.
If there were my only air-powered rifles, I’d probably take the first (high power). As I do have some PCP’s, am keeping them at the 2nd (lots of uniform shots).
-
Thanks for keeping the info coming.
Funny how predictable I am. I started reading up on these Qb conversions a few months back. The very first thing I thought was "dang, that's some pretty impressive energy from a little budget gun." I went all wide eyed and power crazy and wanted to go 1500psi and cut that valve down to a fraction of its original size. I'm still kinda there to be honest. I think I need two of these guns. One C02 for plinking up the yard and one maxed out HPA for long range and tree rats.
My situation is a little different. I have five vintage pumpers, one gas piston, and my Marauder pistol that in reality all make very similar power. I'm wanting to break out to a little higher power but most of the hard hitters get so big physically that I loose interest. Seems I could really enjoy QB on HPA. From my point of reference, 27 or so ftlbs is a hammer.
I'm torn, keep it modest or mash the throttle to the floor and expect poor fuel economy and bald tires.
-
I get 80 shots at 25+ FPE on 1200 psi with my QB79 with Stage 2 (shortened and hogged out) valve....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/QB%20on%20HPA/QB79NinjaString1200_zpsbf52d449.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/QB%20on%20HPA/QB79NinjaString1200_zpsbf52d449.jpg.html)
and it shoots like this at 25 yards.... Seems like the best of both worlds to me....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/QB%20on%20HPA/QB79Ninja001_zps59632639.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/QB%20on%20HPA/QB79Ninja001_zps59632639.jpg.html)
If you need more power, start with a QB78.... If you want less, dial down the pressure and hammer strike to suit your needs....
Bob
-
Hey cclingma,
Keep in mind, my QB79 (.22) has been on backorder for almost 2 months now :o. So there maybe a substantial wait ahead once you pull the trigger. It seems the QB79 in .22 cal. is the ideal way to go on the QB's, especially if you intend to do the work yourself and hunt. I think the QB78 or QB78D requires considerably more work and expense.
I think the QB79 is a great looking package (with all do respect to Ribbonstone). My Hatsan AT44-L / Galatian look fantastic, but a 9+ pound gun loses its luster when you've been carrying it in the field all day :P
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n227/kirk_schwarz/More%20QB%20003_zpsgxmaftsu.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/kirk_schwarz/media/More%20QB%20003_zpsgxmaftsu.jpg.html)
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n227/kirk_schwarz/Profile_zpszijdfetp.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/kirk_schwarz/media/Profile_zpszijdfetp.jpg.html)
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n227/kirk_schwarz/HatsanAT44-10WL1_zps6370a814.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/kirk_schwarz/media/HatsanAT44-10WL1_zps6370a814.jpg.html)
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n227/kirk_schwarz/Hammer%20Adjustment%20008_zpsbpnntvdf.jpg) (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/kirk_schwarz/media/Hammer%20Adjustment%20008_zpsbpnntvdf.jpg.html)
When it arrives, my Goal with the QB79 (.22), is to best rstern's 80 shots per fill @ 850 fps using JSB 15.9 gr.
God knows I can't outshoot the Dominion Marksman ;)
Good Luck ............ Kirk
-
Bob, I almost can recite your $200 PCP post. Thanks for taking the time to share all that and for posting here. I think I read your Ninja is the one sold as 1100psi but measures 1200? Are all the 1100s closer to 1200psi?
SpiralGroove, I thought that other guy had Qb79 .22 available but just checked, sure enough he doesn't.
May have plenty time to stew on this. Actually have one of my bows for sale and was going to jump in when it sells.
-
I have no idea what "most" of the SHP Pros are, but mine was supposed to be 1100 and was just about bang on 1200.... on two gauges....
Bob