GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Anylizer on May 07, 2015, 02:26:04 PM
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Long story short, I have a Stoeger X20s, that has a non-removable plastic shroud around the entire barrel. I need to try and bed this barrel, because it shoots 9" low at 10yrds. Compensating scope mounts are a last resort. with this much droop, it will require 1/4" of lift at the rear of the scope. Not even sure I can get mounts with that much compensation in them...
Any how looking for ideas, or what others did to solve this problem!
Thanks
Tim
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If you just got it, send it back.
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Ya, that's not going to happen. I already put a trigger in it. When i talked with them on the phone, they will only verify with the scope that came with it, and it groups 3/4" 7 shot groups @ 30 yrds. with the OE scope. Not sure what they did... but their scope is internally compensated... even mounted on my RWS with near equal droop it was pretty close.
I have mounted 4 other scopes on this rifle, and all come in the same... 9" low 4" left @ 10 yrds. Stoeger doesn't sell just a barrel, only complete guns.
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Are you sure the barrel is bent?
Maybe the pellet is hitting the shroud on its way out.
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yes... i'm sure!! Absolutely, positively, no mind in my doubt!!! It's excellent with the OE scope... just not any others!!!
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Sorry, Tim, with a plastic shroud you can't remove, I don't know how you can bend the barrel without ruining the shroud.
Others may have better ideas.
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Thanks for Trying Benji' appreciate it! Walls every direction I turn! I'm starting to lean towards a custom built scope mount! $$$$ :'( :'(
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Tim,
I had the same problem with 3 different X20S's (refurbs) and the RWS compensating one piece mount solved the issue.
Easy fix and you can get them for $13-$20 on eBay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/331171232504?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/331171232504?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
If interested, email them and ask to supply 1" shims for the rings. They originally had them in 1" now 30mm only. The first ones came in RWS retail packaging, the 30mm version in generic packaging but the identical item.
Same unit from PA (for $30) When you see an orientation arrow on a mount it is droop compensating.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RWS-Lock-Down-1-Pc-Mount-w-1-Rings-11mm-Dovetail-Barrel-Droop-Compensation-/231425912311 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/RWS-Lock-Down-1-Pc-Mount-w-1-Rings-11mm-Dovetail-Barrel-Droop-Compensation-/231425912311)
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Thanks Packard... I just haven't been able to get solid info on how much lift most compensaters provide. I'm estimating 1/4 " at the rear of the scope. Were your Stoegers that far off?
From the info on the PA site, there is only .025" compensation... thats not even close to enough.
I used a laser bore sighter to guestimate the amount of lift that i need.
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Thanks Packard... I just haven't been able to get solid info on how much lift most compensaters provide. I'm estimating 1/4 " at the rear of the scope. Were your Stoegers that far off?
Pretty much. At 10 yds with a bullseye about 8" above ground the pells were impacting at the ground in front of the target. I think 1/4 " is way too much. The UTG compensating Weaver rail designed for my Diana 48 specs for a 17.1" elevation rise @ 30 yds and the slope is hardly noticeable looking at it.
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From the info on the PA site, there is only .025" compensation... thats not even close to enough.
I used a laser bore sighter to guestimate the amount of lift that i need.
1/4" still seems waaay too much to me. Why not experiment with shimming the bottom of the rear ring 1/4" (just lightly cinch down the scope) and see if that is in the ballpark? It should give you a pretty close estimate, at least for the first shot. Also, how did you use a bore sighter with the X20S? Do you have one that will actually go into the breach and allow you to close the barrel? Looks like just stuffing one into the muzzle of the sound suppressor would not be accurate at all.
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Thanks Packard... I just haven't been able to get solid info on how much lift most compensaters provide. I'm estimating 1/4 " at the rear of the scope. Were your Stoegers that far off?
From the info on the PA site, there is only .025" compensation... thats not even close to enough.
I used a laser bore sighter to guestimate the amount of lift that i need.
Pellets are not flying on a flat plane but on an arc.
I only use 10 yards to get on paper. I move to 20 then around 35 yards to zero.
Any shots under that I hold under.
Over 35? I hold over. I hold over 4.25 mildots to go 75 yards or so.
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OK,cool... Jeff... Maybe you (or anybody) can help me figure this out then. If my POI is 9" low @ 10 yrds... what would estimated POI be at 30yrds.... shooting 7.33gr. @ 869fps .17 cal.
Packard... I made an adapter that fit clear into the barrel to hold my muzzle bore sighter. It's not perfect but allows me to get close on original sighting, then dial it in while shooting it.
Additionally, I just found out how to take apart the muzzle end of the shroud. The end cap just screws on, there is a spring and 3 baffles in there. The steel portion of the barrel is about 4" inside the the end of the shroud. I'll post pics if I can.
I also just spoke to "Tim" @ Mac 1 airguns, he said I should be able to bend the barrel no problem.... so guess we'll find out!!! lol he said the plastic actually helps in the adjustment.
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Get a copy of ChairGun. It's free.
;)
http://www.hawkeoptics.com/chairgun.html (http://www.hawkeoptics.com/chairgun.html)
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Jeff... I did, just haven't had time to process it yet.... 8)
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I find it weird that the scope that came with the AG is ok but others aren't.
Did you optically check and center the other scopes? Did you use different rings?
What scope came with the AG?
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Packard... I made an adapter that fit clear into the barrel to hold my muzzle bore sighter. It's not perfect but allows me to get close on original sighting, then dial it in while shooting it.
Additionally, I just found out how to take apart the muzzle end of the shroud. The end cap just screws on, there is a spring and 3 baffles in there. The steel portion of the barrel is about 4" inside the the end of the shroud. I'll post pics if I can.
I also just spoke to "Tim" @ Mac 1 airguns, he said I should be able to bend the barrel no problem.... so guess we'll find out!!! lol he said the plastic actually helps in the adjustment.
Interesting, learn something new everyday. I would have thought the plastic shroud would break when bending the barrel.
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Read that again Mate. He stated the shroud comes off somewhat.
;)
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Jeff... lol... same response I got from PA & Stoeger! I optically centered 4 other scopes... 2 UTG/Leapers, 1 Vortex Crossfire, & 1 Leopould. Using the V-notch method. I also used several different sets of rings, and switched them front to rear.( All having the same results) I sent the first UTG back to PA thinking it was bad... when i maxed out the Elevation & windage, only to get within 6" of the bull. The scope that was on the gun, was the Stoeger/China one that came with the gun. It is about 8" long and cannot be moved back far enough on the gun to create a comfortable shooting position.
Stoeger has to have figured out a way to compensate inside the scope. I think that is why it is so short. IMHO.
If I could get pics to post, I could show you the insane amount of droop this barrel has... it is visible to the naked eye, and even worse when using a straightedge for reference. I could see it when i first got the gun, but it zeroed and shot great... I figured it was probably just because of the shroud that it looked funny. I now know different! It is the gun... not the Glass!!
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Read that again Mate. He stated the shroud comes off somewhat.
;)
@ Jeff, I read that as Tim is opening the end of the shroud to expose the baffles and the end of barrel. The shroud goes the full length of the barrel and looks like is is heat-welded on. The scope supplied with the package is a Stoeger branded 4X32 illuminated with standard 2 piece mounting rings. Seems to me too that any scope should work with a compensating mount.
@ Tim, I would try the $13 eBay compensating mount before bending the barrel...too many bad case scenarios there...especially if Stoeger says they won't sell you a new one. Your gun, your decision, 'jes sayin'
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Packard... from everything I have searched, I am concerned about the shroud also! Being able to find the end of the barrel, and not break off the end of the shroud was good! lol But the bending should occur just ahead of the breech block, and the plastic is pretty thin there, so I'm hoping it will flex enough. i will probably heat the plastic a little with a heat gun, to make it somewhat more pliable.
He also suggested hitting it with a hammer (rubber I assume)... just not sure I can bring myself to do that, would rather tweak it gently!
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Interesting.
I've been looking at that AG.
Do a check on the breech block. It may be out of square and need a tad of file work to close completely thus raising the POI.
Some Benji's have needed this.
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Packard... from everything I have searched, I am concerned about the shroud also! Being able to find the end of the barrel, and not break off the end of the shroud was good! lol But the bending should occur just ahead of the breech block, and the plastic is pretty thin there, so I'm hoping it will flex enough. i will probably heat the plastic a little with a heat gun, to make it somewhat more pliable.
He also suggested hitting it with a hammer (rubber I assume)... just not sure I can bring myself to do that, would rather tweak it gently!
Good luck with it Tim...I'll be looking the other way and cringing!
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He also suggested hitting it with a hammer
I wonder if that's the 'End of Options' suggestion?
"If all else fails? Beat it with a hammer till dead."
;D
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@ Jeff... I absolutely love the gun... great shot cycle, added the CDT trigger made it that much better. It's nice & quiet, without much spring noise. Until I ran into this issue, I would have recommended it to anyone! Now, because of the way Stoeger Cust. Service treated me... IDK
Nice gun, just ck it out thoroughly.
Going to talk to a gun-maker friend of mine and see about machining options... if I can wait that long!
@ Packard.... I know its only another $30 for the compensating mount... But right now i kinda feel like bending/breaking something. Stoeger all but called me an idiot, and only agreed to test it using the supplied optics... This is another reason I feel that there scope is internally compensated.
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He also suggested hitting it with a hammer
I wonder if that's the 'End of Options' suggestion?
"If all else fails? Beat it with a hammer till dead."
;D
ROFLMBO... might get me into a higher quality gun huh??? Kinda feelin' it right now!!!! :o
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@ Packard.... I know its only another $30 for the compensating mount... But right now i kinda feel like bending/breaking something. Stoeger all but called me an idiot, and only agreed to test it using the supplied optics... This is another reason I feel that there scope is internally compensated.
Actually Tim the one I linked on eBay is $12.99 shipped, that's assuming they will include the 1" sleeves (they did for me).
I like your idea of consulting with your gunsmith friend before bending and beating on things! ;)
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I'm going through withdrawls... the squirrels are out, I haven't shot my rifle in 3 weeks. What with shipping scopes back and forth... finding test equipment... and trying to figure out what is going on! Was really jacked about the new optics... I was gonna be a squirrel slayen' mutha! Ya... No !!! not so easy!!!
I'm not a real patient guy to begin with... about time to break something! Especially since I can't KILL something!
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Here is a profile pic of the rifle. Not sure if shows up clearly how bad this thing droops... no DROPS! lol
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Here is another with a straight edge laid along the shroud... notice the gap growing towards the butt end!!!
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It's not locking up properly for some reason.
I'd do some serious checking near the breech area to find out why.
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Here is another with a straight edge laid along the shroud... notice the gap growing towards the butt end!!!
I had one that bad when Cabelas had the refurbs on sale. I promptly returned it. Ordered 2 more (.177 & .22) and both were okay when used with the compensating mount.
Why not put the stock trigger back in and see about an exchange either through the retailer or Stoeger? Where and when was it purchased?
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One other option and not saying its the best . But you might want to file the barrel block. You may need to be careful in doing so. A little filling changes the POI quite a bit. JMO
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here are pics of the muzzle end of the shroud dis-assembled.
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It's not locking up properly for some reason.
I'd do some serious checking near the breech area to find out why.
It's locked up tight, seals well... I believe that the machined angle of the breech/comp tube are incorrect. They match, and the breech seal is doing its job, they are just not correct for proper POA. Obviously it has major droop! But... Stoeger knows this, hence why their scope is the only one that zero's on the gun.
If the breech end of the barrel were filed off some it would correct the problem... but I could screw that up really easy! Then that raises the question... if I did get it to match properly, would it lock up tight or will it be loose against the detent/chisel ??
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Given you can...
A. Bend a plastic part that may or may not break
B. Beat it with a Hammer. Which in my experience leads to excessive beatings with said hammer.
C. Attempt a file to the breech approach. (Then beat it with the Hammer if that fails)
(Should you damage the AG in anyway after reading my advise? I was never here.)
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Hey Packard !!!! you can look now!!!
So... here is how you do it!!!! be sure to get at least 4" from the muzzle end, this is where the barrel actually ends, the rest is shroud. A firm grip at the pivot point, and a few firm tugs/pulls. Easy peasy! really took very little effort to get it lined up!
Note: it is not clamped tight in the vise, just slightly closed up so there is less room for it to roll when pulling!
the plastic shroud never even groaned, actually not much movement int it at all! I did not even use heat to make it more pliable.
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Hey Packard !!!! you can look now!!!
So... here is how you do it!!!! be sure to get at least 4" from the muzzle end, this is where the barrel actually ends, the rest is shroud. A firm grip at the pivot point, and a few firm tugs/pulls. Easy peasy! really took very little effort to get it lined up!
Note: it is not clamped tight in the vise, just slightly closed up so there is less room for it to roll when pulling!
the plastic shroud never even groaned, actually not much movement int it at all! I did not even use heat to make it more pliable.
And...(Drum Roll) what is the result? How's she shootin' now?
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1) NEVER take a file to your barrel lock-up! This is permanent!
2) Once you GET OVER the newby fear of bending the barrel, you will wonder why you hesitated.
3) Most EXPERIENCED mechanics/techs know short cuts and hammers are more versatile than folks realize.
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A firm grip at the pivot point, and a few firm tugs/pulls. Easy peasy! really took very little effort to get it lined up!
This is the part where the other guy 'properly' used the hammer.
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.... and now, as Paul Harvey would say, Is The Rest of The Story..... After cocking and firing it 3 or 4 times.... it is right back to where it was!!!!
I'm really disappointed now. This gun is no harder to cock than my Diana, or any of the Gamo's I have worked on. I dont yank on it, I do my best to just latch the piston.
Guess I just need to try and get my $$$ back.... :'(
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Before you do that, why not try that $13 droop compensating one piece mount?
Worked for me an 2 different X20S's..........
http://www.ebay.com/itm/331171232504?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/331171232504?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Be sure to email them first and ask to include the 1" adapters.
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Well, I thought i would finish up this saga. Stoeger did replace my severely drooped rifle, and it only took them 4 weeks to get it done.
The replacement rifle does have some droop, but nothing like the original one. I have decided to keep this rifle even though I'm not completely satisfied with the outcome. In my opinion, the should have made a real effort to get me a "straight" rifle. Additionally, I think some communication as to their findings of my original rifle and how they were going to proceed, would have been good business!
I decided to pull this replacement completely apart and do a lube tune/inspection while I was installiing my CDT trigger. I was pleasantly surprised to find the internals in rather good shape. The entire receiver tube and compression tube has been de-burred & honed from the factory. The was a decent , not excessive, amount of lube, & the piston seal looked great. The breech seal, however, is another story. The breech seal is hard as a rock and mashed nearly completely flat.
A return call to Stoeger requesting a replacement seal along with purchasing additional breech seals, was met once again with a VERY VERY condescending jerk on the phone.
Why do these people have "Customer Service" jobs if they can't be polite ...and of service.
I will give this new rifle a chance to break in... hopefully it will be as nice a shooter as the original one was. If not, I will remove the usable parts( trigger,seals,piston, scope/mounts) then crush the rest in my 50 ton press, and ship it back to them with a very explicit note abut their service & product!
It's sad really, because I do like the gun as a whole. But I don't do well with people/companies who take my hard earned $$$ without service after the fact!
rant over... sorry >:(