GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Feinwerkbau => Topic started by: NTSOG on April 18, 2015, 09:21:32 PM
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G'day,
I would appreciate some advice as to the value [and historical worth] of a FWB 127 [.22] that is listed for sale on a used guns site in Australia. I am waiting for more detailed information about it such as its serial number and previous usage/ownership, but, from what I have read about the FWB 124 [.177] and the FWB 127 [.22], they are both representative of the beginning of interest in "adult" air rifles in the late 1970s/early 1980s in England and the USA. Would that be correct? Tom Gaylard extols the virtues of the FWB 124 : "the 124 was a wow in .177 but a relative dog in .22," It seems that both models are now highly valued, though the FWB 127 is somewhat rarer.
The model that is for sale is listed at $A225/$US175], but I do not know at this stage its state of repair internally. From photos it appears to be in good condition and comes with a scope on separate "rounded" mounts and has a leather sling. The stock appears to be of a lighter hued, fine grain timber. Logic suggests that a complete re-build would be in order now or in the immediate future should I purchase it.
Any comments would be appreciated.
Jim
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And G'day to you.
According to Blue Book of Airguns, Tenth Edition the Model 127 in .22, which produced 620 - 680 fps (depending on pellet), was discontinued in 1989. For what its worth, it has no available value for a 127 in 100% condition, but from 60% to 95% the value is pegged from $195 to $450. If it is fancy or custom select grade stock it is worth even more. You may have found a good deal.
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G'day Grauhanen [Gray man? - Swedish and German?],
Thank you for the information. That explains why Tom Gaylard stated it was "a relative dog in .22". Nevertheless I will have a good look at it. I suspect the light coloured stock is probably one of the cheaper timbers used - definitely not walnut!
Perhaps a re-build with more modern components would lift its power-output a little, but even 620+ would do for knocking over sparrows and other unwanted "imports" around the house.
Jim
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124's and 127's are kinda like land: they're not making any more of it. Sounds like you scored my man.
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"Perhaps a re-build with more modern components would lift its power-output a little, but even 620+ would do for knocking over sparrows and other unwanted "imports" around the house."
Had a GREAT time the other day plinking with an XS12! Getting maybe, 500fps with Hobby's? Had no trouble hitting stuff like bottle caps 25 yards away with the fiber optic sights. Weighs about 5 pounds and cocks with what seems like NO effort! Long second stage on the trigger but still very useful.
Power ain't the whole story. Have 4x 124s and would love to have a 127.
Thanks for the wake-up call, all you C models out there.
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At $175 US if it is in reasonable and rebuildable condition, that is a great price. They are known for their smooth operation and when first produced were medium powered adult air rifles. The power is more than adequate for 25 yard kills on everything up to about pigeon, squirrel, size. As far as I know very few had walnut stocks, the birch is found on most all of the units and the main factor in high grade vs standard grade is the grip cap and white butt pad spacer, plus the checkering on grip and fore end. In either case, get it, rebuild it, shoot it, you'll love it.
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Thank you both for your responses garczar6 and Yrok,
It does seem that the FWBs [124 or 127] are still highly valued still around the world. Hopefully I can get it. As you state Yrok power is not everything and I already have three magnums [.177, .22 and .25] that would not do well for shooting around the house, but would be better out in one of my fields on rabbits at longer ranges.
Yrok also wrote "Thanks for the wake-up call, all you C models out there" - I'm sorry, but I do not understand - I'm new to air gunning after being a bow-hunter for years until injury to my shoulder forced me to change.
Jim
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G'day PigButtons,
I think the asking price is very good even in Australian dollars, i.e $225. The stock is likely made of beech then and it has checkering on the grip [cannot see any on the fore-end, but the photos are not very clear] and does have a white spacer on the butt-pad and on the grip cap as well.
Hopefully I can get it.
Many thanks for your advice,
Jim
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Sheridan C Model. Vintage .20 pumper.
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Hi Yrok,
Now I understand!
I have read a lot about the old Sheridans and there is one for sale here in Queensland [up North from where I live]: Sheridan Blue Streak [SN 102849] for $A320/$US250. it has been listed since May 2014. Obviously the type is not as esteemed as in the USA.
Jim
P.S. Actually I found another couple of Sheridans listed in a large "armoury" held by a gun shop as well as two .177 air rifles attributed to Quackenbush who, I have read, was an original US innovator in air guns. I am assuming that they were built by the same H M Quackenbush. One is attributed to "Quackenbush" and the other to "M M Quackenbush".
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Hi Folks,
Further to my pursuit of the FWB 127, I have learned that the SN is 52767 and it will fire a pellet!!!! [Of course I do not know how far the pellet travelled!] The Serial Number stated indicates that is was likely made between 1983 and 1984. Unfortunately it is missing or has "lost" its fore sight in part. It has a scope, but the details of scope and mounts were omitted in the response to my enquiry.
I am trying to get further information, but am beginning to think that air rifles are very much a "fringe" part of the business for gun shops in Australia because of the casual responses I have received from several, especially about used rifles.
Jim.
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A 6 month trial/evaluation test at my house would be be wonderful. ;D
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So Uglymike,
You think I should persevere? Actually at the price listed I really have little to lose!
Jim.
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Have you attempted to negotiate him down?
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I would by all means get the rifle, negotiate if you can, but that is still a good price by US standards.
A seal :https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-feinwerkbau-piston-seal-fits-fwb-124-air-rifle?a=3664 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-feinwerkbau-piston-seal-fits-fwb-124-air-rifle?a=3664)
a spring:https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-feinwerkbau-mainspring-fits-fwb-124-air-rifle?a=3665 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-feinwerkbau-mainspring-fits-fwb-124-air-rifle?a=3665)
can be had quite easily. Those listed above are stock factory replacements. Usually this site : http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/page/page/251327.htm (http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/page/page/251327.htm) has a wide variety of aftermarket springs from near magnum to super mild ( to avoid wear on older guns ( and humans )). But as you can see from the link, Jim had a heart attack and his shop is closed UFN.
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Thank you for all that technical information Duane. I will be ringing the dealer today to negotiate a price, though I am determined to get the rifle for sure even at the listed price. It will be fun to restore. My wife is soon to visit her family in northern Wisconsin so [if I can get the rifle in time to strip it down and check it] should be able to purchase the necessary components for me for a re-build while in the US.
Jim
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You will also want to decide what lubes you need. For the spring I use Lucas Red Tacky grease from the autoparts store. For the piston, cocking shoe, pivot pins, and main seal, I use Krytox from Dupont, any of them will do, I just happen to have XHTAC for my AR's but that isn't necessary for air rifles. There are other less expensive lubes for the piston, seal,.... I just have Krytox around so I use that and it lasts forever.
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The one I saw sell a year back was a delux in 90% condition and it sold for $700 with higher back up offers.
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G'day Grauhanen [Gray man? - Swedish and German?],
Thank you for the information. That explains why Tom Gaylard stated it was "a relative dog in .22". Nevertheless I will have a good look at it. I suspect the light coloured stock is probably one of the cheaper timbers used - definitely not walnut!
You're welcome. The name is Finnish.
Glenn
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Well 3 years ago I won off acution and paid $740 for mine but it was new in the box with the paperwork from 1976(Beeman San Anselmo). Then I paid $300 for a full tune from PW and $70 for the SS JM trigger. And then I added a custom full length walnut stock glass bedded as well. Then it got scoped with rings and a muzzle break. So Im over the $2K mark for that "dog" . Would I do it again. Absolutely. flat oput to 40 yds I pick off shells at the range off the ground . Its like a sheridan pumped 10 times in 22caliber with just a 5 second one break load. There is no new FWB in 22cal so the old ones are that much more special. You better run back to the store.
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Hi cvasquez and linoww,
I am staggered to hear that any FWB 127s [.22] could fetch $700.00 - or more!
I am getting the rifle at the price advertised [$A225] - I could not talk the gunshop down on price - any way it does have a mounted scope and a leather sling. I will be posting my cheque next Monday so will get the rifle in two or three weeks +/_ given the legalities of firearm transfer and ownership in Australia.
So cvasquez it clearly is not a "dog" as Tom Gaylard commented [in comparison to the FWB 124 (.177).] Your rifle is almost too beautiful to take out and shoot in the field. Did you put in a stronger spring or is it essentially rebuilt to original specifications but finely tuned? As you said there are no new FWBs in .22, but the old ones are not too common also apparently because the FWB 124 was more popular.
Many thanks to you all for you interest and advice,
Jim.
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I have a 127 and while it's no hot rod, it ain't no dog either. That comment is more or less Tom Gaylords slip not the marketing of the day when the ever pressing issue of the day,..and today still,...was a quest for higher velocity. With pinpoint accuracy of the fwb sporters, high velocity becomes an after thought with marginal importance.
As for "book" values, that's a subjective topic where one opinion can differ from another very little or a lot. It all comes down to what one individual person is willing to pay.
The FWB Sporters, regardless of caliber, are fine quality rifles that any airy net would be proud to own. Good luck.
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Well congratulations Jim, we'll all be waiting to see some pics and get your first range report. For that price, folks here would be peeing themselves.
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Mine has the strong Everest spring from JM to power it up to 680fps with JSB Epress 14.3gr pellets which it loves. $225, is an absolute steal unless it was rusted. Note that the scope cross grooves of the reciever take the special scope rings with matching cross bars. I forget the exact model number but I believe they are from Sportsmatch. OR it can be milled with a normal round stop recess hole in the cross grooves. From the tolerances Ive heard on the maintubes you may only needs to have a mild crosshatching done as they are pretty trued from the factory . JM has the piston seals and breech seals . HE also carries the stainless steel trigger blade with a slight mod to the shape to gain a slightly lighter pull as well as stronger than the plastic one. ID get that for sure!!! Have fun.Should be able to take care of the rabbits out to 50 yds easily.
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Hello again,
As you say tjk, beauty [and value] is in the eye of the beholder. Of interest is that the gunsmith who examined the 127 I am purchasing stated that it was a "very well made gun" which is why I was interested in the first place. [I am also negotiating to purchase a FWB 300 and became aware of the 127 through my researching of the FWB 300 and numerous comments about FWB rifles generally being exceptionally well engineered and built in part because of the company's focus on top-of-the-line target rifles.]
cvasquez I have seen photos on an English site of the top of the breech area showing lateral grooves much like the grooves on Webley & Scott Patriots. The rifle already has a scope mounted, but I cannot say what the mounting area is like and what the bases of the twin mounts are like. I have seen the Sportsmatch mounts you mention with the cross bars to restrain movement. I will just have to wait and see ...
Many thanks to you all,
Jim
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G'day all,
I finally received my FWB 127 about a week or so ago and have found it to be a delight to shoot. It is definitely used and shows minor dings and scratches to the stock and some wear and minor damage around the scope mounts. [The fore sight is missing, but that is not a problem at the moment.] Overall it seems very tight. It came with a 4X Norinco [China?] scope on two mounts that were, at first, pointing the scope about 5+ degrees off centre. A single piece mount has rectified the issue of pellets missing even the back stop at 3o feet and it is surprisingly accurate. I was so surprised by its performance given its age and the likelihood that it had never had much tender-loving-care and probably had never been overhauled that I bought a chronograph to test it. Using H & N FTT .22 [14.66 grains] pellets the results on a cold morning were as follows:
581 fps
588
570
576
576
Average: 578 = 10.88 foot pounds
Spread: 18
Sd: 6
This suggests to me the following:
a. It is operating reasonably well in terms of consistency and accuracy in spite of its age.
b. It is likely that it has not been modified or overhauled and is basically as it was ex-factory.
c. I might as well leave it alone for the time being and go chase some rabbits as it has enough power and accuracy to knock some over if I can point it in the right direction.
I would appreciate any comments or suggestions from those who are more experienced in interpreting performance statistics than I.
Jim
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Hey Jim,
Good to hear you have it and it is at least consistent. I would think those numbers are a little low and more than likely it is because of the old seals. Bad seals can lead to other problems because there isn't enough counter force to the piston's rapid movement leading to stronger that spec'd impact at the end of the stroke. I would get new ones and since you have to open it up to get the main seal changed, I'd get a new spring as well. They aren't hard to work on, though you'll need to get or make a compressor. I'm not sure I'd opt for the trigger unless you are a belt and suspenders kind of guy. Especially if you find the trigger you have satisfactory. Good lube is important however.
Anyway, go shoot the daylights out of it, and have some fun.
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Thanks Duane,
I thought the fps figures were likely a little low and indicative of old and tired internals. I am building a compressor at the moment as my WS Patriot [.25] has stopped cocking so I will rebuild each rifle over the next couple of weeks.
I find the trigger [metal] right for me at my present level of skill. It can be lightened to the point that there is no room for any error so I will keep it at a slightly heavier setting for a while until my skills are better.
It is really fun to shoot even if it is running a little low on energy compared to factory settings. I can see why people like the FWB 124 and 127 so much!
Many thanks,
Jim.
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Jim,
If you already have a metal trigger there isn't anything to improve. The originals were all plastic as far as I know. Glad you're getting to enjoy your new unit.
Duane
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Just want to add that it also loves JSB GTO non lad domed pelleta 11.75grain. My 127 dog shoots those at 775fos . and they group tight.