GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Weihrauch Airguns => Topic started by: wimpanzee on April 07, 2015, 08:02:43 PM
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I had been really really happy with my R9 I got for christmas. I had debated getting a pg2 kit, but it was smoothing out so well, I decided to pass.
However, the last few times I shot it, I seemed to be chasing a zero. It used to be able to make one nice hole at 25 yards, and it still would, but it would put 2-3 shot groups in holes several inches apart! I fist suspected the cheap bushnell scope it came with was dying, so I swapped scopes, and had the same issue.
It also rattled a little, but research indicated that was just the cocking linkage, and should be normal. However, it didn't sound like it was coming from the cocking linkage, it sounded like it was coming from the spring.
Well, after spending a couple hours watching disassembly videos, I bought a small punch set, some moly-graph, and was ready to "self tune" it.
It came apart as expected, except I had two springs! A nearly normal sized one, and a loop and a half tiny one - see below.
Then, digging further, I also discovered a cracked piston seal, and a munged up (i'm guessing from shooting with a broken spring) piston sleeve...
I guess I'm in for a pg2 kit now!
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Springs break unexpectedly from time to time for no apparent reason. That happened to me with an HW77k, except the spring was broken in three pieces. I installed a Vortek kit. Good luck with your installation.
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The Vortek PG2 kits work well I have them installed in my TX200 MK III PG2 SHO and my D460 PG2 HO the kits made both rifles better shooters
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The Vortek spring will last and last!
PG2 spring in my 97 lasted over 50,000 rounds.....while shooting 10.3s!
PG2 in the 98 lasted almost 40,000.
You are going to love the way your rifle will shoot.
Good luck and let us know how it goes!
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The Vortek spring will last and last!
PG2 spring in my 97 lasted over 50,000 rounds.....while shooting 10.3s!
PG2 in the 98 lasted almost 40,000.
You are going to love the way your rifle will shoot.
Good luck and let us know how it goes!
Hummm.....guess that I'll have to give the Vortek springs another shot since JM no longer winds the E1500 that I stockpiled years ago and I'm on the last one. Checking the Vortek web site I notice that I can have a spring wound similar to the E1500 (about 33 coils of .120 wire).
Several years ago I bought an early PG2 kit for my R9 and it sagged rather quickly after starting too strong for my taste before getting too weak before finishing up one case of CPLs. My early PG2 came with unclosed spring ends and a very heavy thick top hat giving a much too high CPL velocity of 950fps from my R9 using the supplied VAC seal. I disassembled the R9, set aside the heavy thick Vortek top hat and replaced it with a home turned thinner top hat which brought the CPL velocity down to a reasonable 910fps. After a box of CPLs the trajectory changed so I chronied the gun and the velocity had dropped to 880fps. Opening up the R9 once more I reinstalled the original Vortek thick top hat and the CPL velocity went back to 910fps. After shooting 3 1/2 boxes of CPLs I again noted a trajectory change and the chrony again read a CPL velocity of 880 so the original setup with Vortek top hat had lost 70fps in less than 3 months!
The PG2 kit to Vortek for inspection and Tom offered to replace the PG for free. I declined because the field target season was just starting and I didn't want to change out a spring mid season "just in case". Several other ft shooters mentioned that had used the early Vortek kits with the same results.
Anywhoo....I notice that the Vortek springs now have closed and polished ends plus I've read quite a few good reviews such as yours so perhaps it's time to again try a Vortek spring once again.
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Don't forget JM parts! I have had both Vortek and JM internals in my R9 .22. I like the shot cycle of the JM (Hornet) over the Vortek but I prefer the Vortek seal over the Hornet seal. The JM kit produced more velocity in my rifle too. I have the Vortek in service currently but the JM spring and guide are going back in soon with the Voretek seal. You can't lose either way you choose.
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Perfect timing on that info, Brett. I've been debating between JM and Vortek piston seals for the last couple days. Your post just convinced me to try the Vac seal first. Thank you!
Like you, I'm also running the JM Hornet spring in my R11, which I love. The oem HW seal seems to be getting tired, so a new Vac seal should give her some more life.
-Paul
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I am second owner of a late model HW50 (same piston seal as R9), which is also about 4 months old- original owner bought it in Dec. 2014. After maybe 500 shots, it was shooting strong, but had a 40fps spread. When I got it apart, the spring was fine, but the seal was cracked almost exactly like yours, and fit very loosely in the cylinder. Makes me wonder if HW had a bad batch of piston seals.
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Dan D
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Perfect timing on that info, Brett. I've been debating between JM and Vortek piston seals for the last couple days. Your post just convinced me to try the Vac seal first. Thank you!
Like you, I'm also running the JM Hornet spring in my R11, which I love. The oem HW seal seems to be getting tired, so a new Vac seal should give her some more life.
-Paul
Hi Paul! The Hornet seal got brittle over time and ended up splitting on me. Maybe the new ones are better materials than the one I had. I went back to the factory seal until I started seeing HUGE velocity swings and I wasn't sure what the cause was so I replaced everything with the Vortek kit. I'm gonna put the JM spring and guide back in with the Vortek seal and see how that combo works together. I'm guessing that my power will go up. I would love to break the 700 fps mark with 16 gr pellets and keep the same firing behavior that it had with JM parts.
let's compare notes sometime and see what we come up with.
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the seal on my hw95 was pretty beat up as well. the vortek kit transformed the gun. love it.
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Find quite a few OEM HW seals ( The Dull Yellow ones ) nicked and sketchy on fit after some use.
Fitting a new seal after a good deburring does wonders.
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Scott, what are your thoughts on HW95 seals regarding oem vs. JM vs. Vortek?
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Scott, what are your thoughts on HW95 seals regarding oem vs. JM vs. Vortek?
Like ANY of the after market seals better than OEM.
Biggest QC issue in Seals & Fit it HW's wild variance on the spud size seal snaps over :P
Get a bigger spud, then some seals which are made tighter fitting the seals sizes grows requiring major sizing changes.
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This topic got off on springs and seals but first I will say the weather between Christmas and now is quite a bit different. Mainly wind. Do discount wind. It will drive you crazy into thinking your rifle is messed up.
Now as to springs. In my belief Vortek springs last 5,000-10,000 shots. When they die they die hard. I have replaced 5 springs in a friend's RWS 34 since we installed a PG2 kit the third week of June this past year. He does shoot a lot and to the best we can tell a Vortek spring last about 5000-7500 shots before it dies. I have another friend that shoots a TX200 with a Vortek 12fpe Kit in it and he has the same results. I really like the shot cycle in the Vortek kit and recommend them. In fact I have another RWS 34 on my dinning room table with a new Vortek 12 fpe Kit (first docile 34 Kit to install) I plan to work on tomorrow. My only gripe is I think the springs should last longer. I am tempted to see if JM has a spring that is a direct swap for the Vortek spring to see if it lasts longer. The Vortek springs have never broke. They suddenly loose power and loose it dramatically and fast. When you pull the spring out to replace it, it is about 3" shorter than the new spring you are swapping in.
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This topic got off on springs and seals but first I will say the weather between Christmas and now is quite a bit different. Mainly wind. Do discount wind. It will drive you crazy into thinking your rifle is messed up.
Now as to springs. In my belief Vortek springs last 5,000-10,000 shots. When they die they die hard. I have replaced 5 springs in a friend's RWS 34 since we installed a PG2 kit the third week of June this past year. He does shoot a lot and to the best we can tell a Vortek spring last about 5000-7500 shots before it dies. I have another friend that shoots a TX200 with a Vortek 12fpe Kit in it and he has the same results. I really like the shot cycle in the Vortek kit and recommend them. In fact I have another RWS 34 on my dinning room table with a new Vortek 12 fpe Kit (first docile 34 Kit to install) I plan to work on tomorrow. My only gripe is I think the springs should last longer. I am tempted to see if JM has a spring that is a direct swap for the Vortek spring to see if it lasts longer. The Vortek springs have never broke. They suddenly loose power and loose it dramatically and fast. When you pull the spring out to replace it, it is about 3" shorter than the new spring you are swapping in.
Hummm.....same experience I had with my PG2 kit so I'm wondering where those with "30,000 shot life" got their kits?
Anywhoo......when I bought my Beeman R10 decades ago I installed a JM kit called a "soft spring kit" and after 20,000 shots determined by counting empty pellet tins and boxes the spring was still strong. After installing the JM kit the R10 was shooting 7.9 grain pellets at 910fps and after 20,000 shots the velocity was still 900fps with the 7.9 grainers. I stopped counting shots after that and the same spring went into the first R9 I bought and shot thousands of pellets. I've been real satisfied with the service I've gotten from Jim's springs and I was hoping to get similar life from the Vortex springs since they can be ordered with a certain spring count and even a selection of a few different wire gages would on a few different diameters.
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My experience is the same as yours and these are all recent springs from this past year. In fact I just got two 34 springs and 1 TX spring in the mail. I like the Vortek design and springs are relatively cheap and quick to install. That said I don't believe them to last long. I honestly was looking at both the Vortek and JM websites earlier today to try and figure out if JM has a spring that would fit in the Vortek Kit. I do not know much about spring sizes but when I figure it out I want to try it. I plan to measure the new Vortek spring tomorrow before installing it in the 34 I am going to work on to see if I can match it up with a JM spring.
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This topic got off on springs and seals but first I will say the weather between Christmas and now is quite a bit different. Mainly wind. Do discount wind. It will drive you crazy into thinking your rifle is messed up.
Now as to springs. In my belief Vortek springs last 5,000-10,000 shots. When they die they die hard. I have replaced 5 springs in a friend's RWS 34 since we installed a PG2 kit the third week of June this past year. He does shoot a lot and to the best we can tell a Vortek spring last about 5000-7500 shots before it dies. I have another friend that shoots a TX200 with a Vortek 12fpe Kit in it and he has the same results. I really like the shot cycle in the Vortek kit and recommend them. In fact I have another RWS 34 on my dinning room table with a new Vortek 12 fpe Kit (first docile 34 Kit to install) I plan to work on tomorrow. My only gripe is I think the springs should last longer. I am tempted to see if JM has a spring that is a direct swap for the Vortek spring to see if it lasts longer. The Vortek springs have never broke. They suddenly loose power and loose it dramatically and fast. When you pull the spring out to replace it, it is about 3" shorter than the new spring you are swapping in.
Hummm.....same experience I had with my PG2 kit so I'm wondering where those with "30,000 shot life" got their kits?
Anywhoo......when I bought my Beeman R10 decades ago I installed a JM kit called a "soft spring kit" and after 20,000 shots determined by counting empty pellet tins and boxes the spring was still strong. After installing the JM kit the R10 was shooting 7.9 grain pellets at 910fps and after 20,000 shots the velocity was still 900fps with the 7.9 grainers. I stopped counting shots after that and the same spring went into the first R9 I bought and shot thousands of pellets. I've been real satisfied with the service I've gotten from Jim's springs and I was hoping to get similar life from the Vortex springs since they can be ordered with a certain spring count and even a selection of a few different wire gages would on a few different diameters.
My experience is the same as yours and these are all recent springs from this past year. In fact I just got two 34 springs and 1 TX spring in the mail. I like the Vortek design and springs are relatively cheap and quick to install. That said I don't believe them to last long. I honestly was looking at both the Vortek and JM websites earlier today to try and figure out if JM has a spring that would fit in the Vortek Kit. I do not know much about spring sizes but when I figure it out I want to try it. I plan to measure the new Vortek spring tomorrow before installing it in the 34 I am going to work on to see if I can match it up with a JM spring.
I bet if someone were to contact James Macarri and ask for a custom spring, he would make it. I have not ever asked for any custom work or been a bulk buyer of his products but I have always had a quick response from him with any questions that I did have. He has always been accommodating within reason and I think both of your thoughts are reasonable. Maybe I'm wrong but we will never know unless we ask. Just a thought. He makes quality stuff and has been around to know what works and what doesn't.....
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I bet if someone were to contact James Macarri and ask for a custom spring, he would make it. I have not ever asked for any custom work or been a bulk buyer of his products but I have always had a quick response from him with any questions that I did have. He has always been accommodating within reason and I think both of your thoughts are reasonable. Maybe I'm wrong but we will never know unless we ask. Just a thought. He makes quality stuff and has been around to know what works and what doesn't.....
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Well, I just read on another forum that JM is in the hospital. No details other than orders placed after the morning of April 4th are on hold until he gets back. Just thought that I would pass that on.
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Recently "Re-Tuned" a diana 34 with a Vortek PG2. Spring was canted, sacked and just done !
In figuring out what customers needs were, power wanted etc .... was able to use an OEM Air Arms TX spring with a custom length delrin top hat to get the fit correct preload reusing the PG guide/sleeve tube. This was a .177 "Panther" model which after some preload fiddling settled in @ 14 ft lbs shooting very very nicely.
** Generally has been my observation VORTEK winds SMALLER coil diameter to be able in using the Outer PG2 spring sleeves and still get inside the pistons spring cavity. This 34 was the first bringing attention to using OEM coil diameter with PG2 guides.
YES, agree IMO the service life of a LOT of vorteks smaller diameter springs within PG2 sleeves is LESS :P
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Thanks, Scott.
This thread is becoming chock full of great information. 8)
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Recently "Re-Tuned" a diana 34 with a Vortek PG2. Spring was canted, sacked and just done !
In figuring out what customers needs were, power wanted etc .... was able to use an OEM Air Arms TX spring with a custom length delrin top hat to get the fit correct preload reusing the PG guide/sleeve tube. This was a .177 "Panther" model which after some preload fiddling settled in @ 14 ft lbs shooting very very nicely.
** Generally has been my observation VORTEK winds SMALLER coil diameter to be able in using the Outer PG2 spring sleeves and still get inside the pistons spring cavity. This 34 was the first bringing attention to using OEM coil diameter with PG2 guides.
YES, agree IMO the service life of a LOT of vorteks smaller diameter springs within PG2 sleeves is LESS :P
Years ago RWS offered the RWS94 (rebadged Cometa) and a fellow at the DIFTA field target club used one for a while. After a few months the RWS94 owner mentioned that the springs sagged quickly and he had gone through several replacement springs.
I have always preferred a main spring for my R9s to have a .540ish ID wound of .120 wire with 30ish coils and have gotten good service from JM springs with these specs. If my suspicions are correct (might be goofy), the Vortek replacement spring for the PG2-HW95/97 770120 and 780125 has an ID of about .530. This is assuming (we all know what as#-u-me does) that the part number means .770OD with .120 or .780OD with .125 wire giving a .530 ID. If this is correct then I really have no idea why my PG2 kit sagged so quickly since the ID is real close to the JM springs I've used for years so I'm a bit puzzled by the reports of sagging Vortek springs based on "wind geometry" alone!
This thread is pretty interesting in the since a small ID spring will fit in a tighter piston while giving higher output at the same (for a while), but it will also be higher stressed than the same spring wire wound on a larger ID.
I had never considered using a TX200 factory spring but this does seem interesting because the TX rifles do have a reputation for reliability! I do believe that the TX200 uses a .128 wire spring, does anyone know the dimensions of a factory FAC TX200 spring?
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Interesting Motörhead. I don't know much about springs sizes. It appears Vortek lists the OD of the spring, wire gauge, and number of coils. JM lists the ID of the spring, wire gauge, and number of coils. I would still like to swap out a Vortek spring and install a JM spring into the Vortek Kit. I plan to measure a new 34 PG2 spring and determine the ID of the spring and see if it matches up to any JM offerings. What I don't know is if the OAL between the Vortek & a JM spring would be the same if I ordered a spring from each with the same OD/ID, spring gauge, & number of coils. Seems to me number of coils may not determine OAL if one spring has coils tighter together (wrapped tighter) than the other. What you say though makes sense. In order for the Vortek outer guider to fit in the compression tube they have to use a small gauge spring and in turn it wears out faster. Therefore my experiment may not produce results.
I hope nobody walks away thinking I am slamming Vortek after reading my posts. I am not. They have a really good design and I recommend and use them. I am installing a Vortek Kit today for a friend who bought the Kit per my recommendation.
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I ordered the vortek kit based on several recommendations...now you have me thinking buyers remorse, and I haven't even received the kit yet! :)
I'm sure it will be good - better than the factory one - and it spurred me to go ahead and disassemble my R9 - something I was very hesitant to do, but it was easy, and now my confidence level is boosted as well. Now I'm almost itching to go buy a cheap ruger airhawk or something, just to tear it down and play with it!
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I ordered the vortek kit based on several recommendations...now you have me thinking buyers remorse, and I haven't even received the kit yet! :)
I'm sure it will be good - better than the factory one - and it spurred me to go ahead and disassemble my R9 - something I was very hesitant to do, but it was easy, and now my confidence level is boosted as well. Now I'm almost itching to go buy a cheap ruger airhawk or something, just to tear it down and play with it!
If you're not shootin' 1000shots per month like I did when I had my PG2 kit you'd probably never have any issues anyway. Springs (like seals) are actually "wear items" like tires on a car and will need to be replaced on occasion regardless. As you've learned, with the R9 a simple spring swap can be done rather cheaply in less than a half hour so the down time plus shipping charges to send it in for repair isn't an issue if you do your own repairs! Of course opening up the gun will void the factory warranty but no big deal since R9s ain't rocket science!
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Everything went back together smoothly. A bit of a pinch getting the sleeve into the piston while trying to press and twist the end cap.
Clocking in around 14.5-14.9 fpe, depending on pellet - 8gr to 10.65gr, now that the dieseling is out of the way.
I totally understand what people mean now, when they say "there is no twang or buzz - it is just a solid thunk". Definitely buzzy before, but now its just smooooooth.
There is a bit of a squeak when I cock it, and the cocking shoe sounds to have a little grate - maybe I under lubed that part, but it's exposed, so I should be able to address that fairly easily.
Accuracy testing this weekend, weather holding!
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No worries with the Vortek Kit. Just shoot and enjoy. It is extremely good. If the rifle gets weak just swap the spring out only. You don't have to take the piston out, barrel off, etc. 10 minute deal and a new Vortek spring is $17-$18. I have installed a lot of Vortek kits. I have only one guy that I have replaced a spring for. He shoots 2x each day or approx 1000 pellets each week. I just replaced his 5th Vortek spring sine the end of last June. He shoots way more than the normal person.
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Hold up...he's gone through 5 springs in less than a year? Please tell me that's for more than one rifle.
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Everything went back together smoothly. A bit of a pinch getting the sleeve into the piston while trying to press and twist the end cap.
Clocking in around 14.5-14.9 fpe, depending on pellet - 8gr to 10.65gr, now that the dieseling is out of the way.
I totally understand what people mean now, when they say "there is no twang or buzz - it is just a solid thunk". Definitely buzzy before, but now its just smooooooth.
There is a bit of a squeak when I cock it, and the cocking shoe sounds to have a little grate - maybe I under lubed that part, but it's exposed, so I should be able to address that fairly easily.
Accuracy testing this weekend, weather holding!
Well jsb 8.44's and polymags are like lasers, once again. We've settled down to 900fps on the jsb, and 920fps on polymags, with about a 10 ES (about 1.3%!!!). The squeaking when cocking, and the sliding sound of the cocking shoe both worked themselves out - its just smooth clicks and solid thuds now. I'm pretty happy!
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With a squeek / squaak upon cocking would indicate somethings dragging or under a bind most times.
In said rifle ... DID IT HAVE a thin metal sleeve within piston spring cavity ? ... was it removed ?
As too the using of the OEM TX spring ... more than springs I.D. was that of O.D. so the PG kits outer sleeve/guide would be in contact with coils more so than the I.D. guide portion which are generally a tad undersize anyways.
It is OMO that most of the PG's Damping quality comes from the O.D. sleeve and the use of an synesthetic rubber buffer in compression between them.
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Yes. 5 springs in one RWS 34. Since June of 2014, that is when I installed his PG2 kit. I have installed every spring. He shoots 2x a day. Typically 800-1000 shots per week. Sometimes less when weather is bad.
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Yes. 5 springs in one RWS 34. Since June of 2014, that is when I installed his PG2 kit. I have installed every spring. He shoots 2x a day. Typically 800-1000 shots per week. Sometimes less when weather is bad.
Sounds like GUIDE issues ( Both ends ) more than the springs fault. Find if spring under compression is allowed to rock/cock sideways at any point along it's length it will go wonky in short order :P
Ideally set up the guide / top hat so as the guide bottom out in a position rifle gets upon cocking and getting safety set, the 2 are just about touching each other.
In this way when in full battery the spring coils are held in perfect alignment under compression and when released have less tendency to strum and vibrate over time.
Sadly springs are metal and given allowed motion will take memory to move the same direction especially if this undesired motion mechanically decreases there stress. :o
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With a squeek / squaak upon cocking would indicate somethings dragging or under a bind most times.
In said rifle ... DID IT HAVE a thin metal sleeve within piston spring cavity ? ... was it removed ?
As too the using of the OEM TX spring ... more than springs I.D. was that of O.D. so the PG kits outer sleeve/guide would be in contact with coils more so than the I.D. guide portion which are generally a tad undersize anyways.
It is OMO that most of the PG's Damping quality comes from the O.D. sleeve and the use of an synesthetic rubber buffer in compression between them.
I measured the spring, on an even coil at the base, wrapped around the little black end cap that goes where the original spring guide went, and for .690. The wire diameter came out to .127/.128 (my calipers are cheap).
The metal sleeve came out - it was damaged too, and there was no way the new spring would fit in the piston with it in there. The little instruction sheet also indicated it should be removed. The new spring, and the cap at the end, fit in the piston with no play, as well.