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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => Turkish AirGun Gate => Topic started by: zenonine on March 21, 2015, 03:05:17 PM
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Have decided to buy a Hatsan 125 Vortex ( not the sniper). My goal is to consistently hit a 9 in reactive target@ 75-100 yds. Which caliber would be best ?
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I have heard that the .25 is for longer shooting but I have shot acorns off of old grapefruit from 65 yds away !
I have the .22 sniper and was shooting off sticks while sitting in a chair! So to me it can be just as accurate!
using chairgun pro and knowing your fps is the key!
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The power plant is the main limiting factor for the weight that the rifle can put downrange.
They both use the same spring.
The smaller diameter projectile is a proven performer (on target) when they start to "run outta gas". The heavier and larger projectile starts dropping off fast. Wind/drop is an effect of time exposed to the elements.
If you are an expert USMC shooter, you already know the answer in your mind.
Use what you've learned.
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I have the 125 in both .25 and .22 and the .22 has the flatter trajectory as the lightest I can shoot in the .25 is H&H FTT 19.91 versus the .22 shooting the JSB 18.13 (heaviest). Also, there is variability in these rifles in the power plants, though close. The .25 is more reliable in its holdover than the .22 (both zeroed at 45yd) in wind but .22 requires less. I had the .25 first and picked up the .22 because I loved the .25 and wanted some flatter trajectory out to 75yd. I can hit soda cans 80+% off hand in no wind with the .22. For some reason it shoots better off hand than the .25, but the .25 shoots really well from a rest for a springer.
Chris
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The power plant is the main limiting factor for the weight that the rifle can put downrange.
They both use the same spring.
The smaller diameter projectile is a proven performer (on target) when they start to "run outta gas". The heavier and larger projectile starts dropping off fast. Wind/drop is an effect of time exposed to the elements.
If you are an expert USMC shooter, you already know the answer in your mind.
Use what you've learned.
I shot Expert with the M-14 rifle 52 years ago. Have not fired many high power rifles since. Apples to oranges. Justlooking for experienced shooters of both. You're right: I've already made up my mind.
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The .25 has still the most energy left on those distances and pellet drop you will have anyway...
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All pellets, bullets, and bricks Fall at the same rate. It's the velocity or better retained velocity that creates the trajectory. The lighter 22 will reach a point at range where its more rapidly diminishing velocity will cause it to fall short of the heavier 25. My two Mrods are both at about 880 fops and my 25 is flatter shooting at 100 yards than the 22. It's a matter of ballistic coefficient of the two pellets. You can prove this using Chairgun Pro. In other words, the heavier pellet will retain its velocity longer and farther.
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All pellets, bullets, and bricks Fall at the same rate. It's the velocity or better retained velocity that creates the trajectory. The lighter 22 will reach a point at range where its more rapidly diminishing velocity will cause it to fall short of the heavier 25. My two Mrods are both at about 880 fops and my 25 is flatter shooting at 100 yards than the 22. It's a matter of ballistic coefficient of the two pellets. You can prove this using Chairgun Pro. In other words, the heavier pellet will retain its velocity longer and farther.
True.
but...in this case the .25 starts off moving 200fps slower...
I personally at those velocities would pick .22 but there
is only about 5-8in difference(if I did my chairgun right..)
in the above situation were they both start at equal velocity then
I would go .25.
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The difference in these springers is the tuning capability. The limitation is the ability to produce energy to obtain maximum velocity, at least in this case as the 125 probably wont reach an unstable velocity at its best. However, you have more choices to reach maximum velocity in .22 with pellet choices, however you may be limited in .25 My 125 in .25 shoots both JSB 25 and H&N FTT 20 but it actually shoots a higher FPE in the FTT as the JSB are just too much for the power plant. My 125 in .22 shoots H&N and JSB in the 16-18.13gr very well but because of the velocity. Even though you may shoot a heavier pellet in the .25 your sacrofice in velocity may result in lower FPE at muzzle and subsequently down range, especially at those distances. The faster velocity exiting the rifle may also reduce human error/hold. You probably need to run some calculations to determine what will work best for you.
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All pellets, bullets, and bricks Fall at the same rate. It's the velocity or better retained velocity that creates the trajectory. The lighter 22 will reach a point at range where its more rapidly diminishing velocity will cause it to fall short of the heavier 25. My two Mrods are both at about 880 fops and my 25 is flatter shooting at 100 yards than the 22. It's a matter of ballistic coefficient of the two pellets. You can prove this using Chairgun Pro. In other words, the heavier pellet will retain its velocity longer and farther.
True.
but...in this case the .25 starts off moving 200fps slower...
I personally at those velocities would pick .22 but there
is only about 5-8in difference(if I did my chairgun right..)
in the above situation were they both start at equal velocity then
I would go .25.
Why would anyone want to start 200 fps slower? ::)
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If you are shooting from a springer your fps is several fps slower for the .25. Vrs the .22!
900 ftps in .22 and 750 in .25 has a large trajectory difference favoring the .22 in trajectory!
60 yds the .25 drops 6 inches and has 20.16!
60 yds the .22 drop is 3" and delivers 10 lbs of energy!
If you shoot a lot .22 is the one I would go with because at 60 yds it will kill a rabbit dead withjh 10 ftlbs!
That is the legal limit in the UK 10 ftlbs and their are plenty of videos on you tube showing that!
But if all you are is a hunter go with the .25 it will deliver the goods but the pellets are twice the price!
I have a 125 sniper in .22 because I shoot a lot!
I will get another air rifle just for hunting in .25 so I can go after a larger animal like a coyote !
Pappywith4
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I agree with pappy, If I wanted to get a rifle to plink with Id go with the .22. .25 is great for hunting and plinking but ammo will cost you. Atleast in .22 you can grab a couple tins of cphp's to have on hand for emergencies.
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All pellets, bullets, and bricks Fall at the same rate. It's the velocity or better retained velocity that creates the trajectory. The lighter 22 will reach a point at range where its more rapidly diminishing velocity will cause it to fall short of the heavier 25. My two Mrods are both at about 880 fops and my 25 is flatter shooting at 100 yards than the 22. It's a matter of ballistic coefficient of the two pellets. You can prove this using Chairgun Pro. In other words, the heavier pellet will retain its velocity longer and farther.
True.
but...in this case the .25 starts off moving 200fps slower...
I personally at those velocities would pick .22 but there
is only about 5-8in difference(if I did my chairgun right..)
in the above situation were they both start at equal velocity then
I would go .25.
Why would anyone want to start 200 fps slower? ::)
With that philosophy may as well get a .177 ;D lol all kidding aside I myself am leaning towards .22 for the same reasons and for the flatter trajectory.
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All I can say is a .25 will shatter a Corona bottle at 70 yards where the .22 knocks it down.
:(
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All I can say is a .25 will shatter a Corona bottle at 70 yards where the .22 knocks it down.
:(
Even if the .22 is heavier? I cant imagine if it was traveling at the same speed that it would just knock it down! I would think with the same power and heavier weight it would smash through it!
If I could hit a bottle at 70 yds I would try it! Lol
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Every springer is experiencing pellet drop after 35yrds, so the answer is in a scope with a good (milldot) reticle to adjust to the pellet drop.
Personally I would go for the .25 which will hold the energy on longer distances. Just better for plinking.
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The .25 has still the most energy left on those distances and pellet drop you will have anyway...
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the heavier pellet will retain its velocity longer and farther.
Not necessarily. I don't think?
At least not based on my experience with my Hatsan Mod 125 Sniper .25s in NPSS & Vortex.
I've found that the above assumptions are only true if the .25 is capable of 'pushing' the pellet beyond a certain FPE. Both the NPSS & Vortex .25 shoot the JSB Exact King 25.39 at ~25 FPE which isn't a sufficient FPE to outdo my Walther Talon Magnum (125 clone) .22 spring rifle which outputs the JSB Exact Heavy 18.13 at ~28 FPE.
Inputting the necessary data into my Android Strelok app yields a higher residual FPE for the .22 than the .25s at 100 yards. Low 14s vs high 13s respectively. But ... when I swapped out the Vortex .25 for the stock spring, FPE jumped to ~28 & then the residual FPE at 100 yards, according to Strelok, was in the 15s. So in that instance, the .25's residual FPE at 100 yards exceeded the .22.
And that's using the stock/standard BC values provided in CGP.
I've used CGP to calculate BCs using the BC speed differential calculator for 0 & 25 yards. Using that calculator I've found that BCs can decrease/increase. For example, the BC for the WTM .22 JSB Exact Heavy 18.13 is actually higher than the CGP listed BC. And likewise, the BC for the .25s JSB Exact King 25.39 is actually lower than the CGP #. But I used the CGP BCs for all the calculations in the Strelok app.
In summary: the rifle has got to be capable of pushing the heavier pellet at greater FPEs to begin with in order to maintain higher residual FPEs at distance. If that makes any sense?
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For a stock rifle, I'd opt for .22.
But non-stock, .25. That's assuming the .25 is capable of outputting 28+ FPE with the JSB Exact King 25.39. I'm considering converting at least one of my gas/air rams to an aftermarket industrial gas ram & am hoping to achieve 32+ FPE with the same pellet. At minimum. I think mid 30 FPEs are possible. At least in the short term. In the long term might not be safe. That's a whole lot of energy for the trigger to retain & I'm not sure it's up to it.
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The .25 has still the most energy left on those distances and pellet drop you will have anyway...
...
the heavier pellet will retain its velocity longer and farther.
Not necessarily. I don't think?
At least not based on my experience with my Hatsan Mod 125 Sniper .25s in NPSS & Vortex.
I've found that the above assumptions are only true if the .25 is capable of 'pushing' the pellet beyond a certain FPE. Both the NPSS & Vortex .25 shoot the JSB Exact King 25.39 at ~25 FPE which isn't a sufficient FPE to outdo my Walther Talon Magnum (125 clone) .22 spring rifle which outputs the JSB Exact Heavy 18.13 at ~28 FPE.
Inputting the necessary data into my Android Strelok app yields a higher residual FPE for the .22 than the .25s at 100 yards. Low 14s vs high 13s respectively. But ... when I swapped out the Vortex .25 for the stock spring, FPE jumped to ~28 & then the residual FPE at 100 yards, according to Strelok, was in the 15s. So in that instance, the .25's residual FPE at 100 yards exceeded the .22.
And that's using the stock/standard BC values provided in CGP.
I've used CGP to calculate BCs using the BC speed differential calculator for 0 & 25 yards. Using that calculator I've found that BCs can decrease/increase. For example, the BC for the WTM .22 JSB Exact Heavy 18.13 is actually higher than the CGP listed BC. And likewise, the BC for the .25s JSB Exact King 25.39 is actually lower than the CGP #. But I used the CGP BCs for all the calculations in the Strelok app.
In summary: the rifle has got to be capable of pushing the heavier pellet at greater FPEs to begin with in order to maintain higher residual FPEs at distance. If that makes any sense?
Interesting insights... And makes sense...
Thanks for sharing !
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Question for anyone familiar with the hatsan 125 sniper vortex .25 cal!!!:
It is a serious gun and deserves that feel to command respect but right now I want to be able to make that thing as light as possible so when I go out hunting its easier to manage. Are there any deadweights in the gun that can be removed / anything that could be done to make it lighter?
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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Question for anyone familiar with the hatsan 125 sniper vortex .25 cal!!!:
It is a serious gun and deserves that feel to command respect but right now I want to be able to make that thing as light as possible so when I go out hunting its easier to manage. Are there any deadweights in the gun that can be removed / anything that could be done to make it lighter?
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
You may want to be careful with this because it could possibly make it more hold senstitve and even tougher on scopes (if you shoot it with a scope) it could also mess with the harmonics of the rifle just my $.02