GTA

All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Rimshot on February 19, 2015, 12:24:43 AM

Title: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Rimshot on February 19, 2015, 12:24:43 AM
While reading another post talking about moa. I have to ask the question is there an air rifle that can achieve sub moa at 100 yards. Years ago a dealer told me he had an AirForce PCP that could, and with a muzzel brake could make it back yard friendly.

So because the DA "aka domestic assistance, aka the bride, aka chief procurer, said because you have been working so hard you can get a new gun.

I then said this is my air rifle and this is my gun, this one is for throwing lead and this one is for fun. So I think I have been approved to buy a new air rifle because my gun doesn't need an upgrade.

Budget under $2500. I have air for pcp I own several.  Requirements are sub moa at 100 yards or so, report level comparable to a rws 48 or less.

Thoughts ??





 
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: MicErs on February 19, 2015, 12:33:01 AM
That is a tall order even in a powder burner.  There are plenty that can do it and a lot more that can not do it.  Just being able to shoot that well is a challenge.  I think I can do that from a bench on a range because I have shot a few groups that good... but with an air rifle flight time itself exposes the pellet to a lot more wind drift.

Are there stats somewhere about what people are doing on the bench competitions?
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 19, 2015, 12:41:40 AM
I assume you want to be able to shoot it outside in real conditions, and not 100 yards indoors?.... If that is the case, and you expect to do it reliably, then forget using pellets and consider something like a Sinner from Holland, shooting 41 gr. bullets around 1050 fps.... basically .22LR target loads in an air rifle.... That is the ONLY type of airgun that will consistently turn in MOA at 100 yards outdoors.... It's not the fault of the rifle, but the pellets just don't (can't) have the Ballistics Coefficient necessary to fight the wind at that distance.... What you probably don't realize is that a 2 mph wind, which you cannot feel on your face, will drift the best pellets about 2 inches at 100 yards.... Compare that to a .22LR bullet at about 1/2"....

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: ToRmEnToR on February 19, 2015, 12:59:42 AM
I think for on the cheap AF in .25 is your best option.. Then you can do simple, two min cal changes to almost any cal you want.. Then you'd have to go .257 to get the one of the best bc's.. My own AF Condor SS, 18", factory shroud is a great 100yd air rifle.. Yes wind is a factor, but still performs very well out a longer range compared to My old/sold Gen 1 Mrod .25.. My D48 is WAY louder than My Condor SS!
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: mobilehomer on February 19, 2015, 01:14:56 AM
Take a look at some of this post from THEOBENRULES. Especially reply #3. Check the links and scroll down to the pix. There are some good 100 meter groups.

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=66826.msg636602#msg636602 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=66826.msg636602#msg636602)
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 19, 2015, 01:21:46 AM
NOTE: Indoor Match....

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Motorhead on February 19, 2015, 02:45:17 AM
Hows that saying go ???
When the cows come home ... fat lady sings & pigs fly.
All the above can and does happen ... once in awhile.

Sub 1 moa at 100 yards outdoors with an air rifle shooting pellets ... good luck with that  8)
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bryan Heimann on February 19, 2015, 03:40:46 AM
I would think that for $2,500, if you already have a fill method and an optic, they sky is the limit.  Just shop wisely.  Then again, I don't know a thing about pcp's and I've never even attempted to shoot paper at 100 yards.  Lord knows I love air rifles, but if I had $2,500 to spend I'd get a nice bolt action rifle in 6.5X55 Swedish, and maybe invest in some hand loading equipment if there was anything left  ::)
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: palonej on February 19, 2015, 08:42:22 AM
Awesome position to be in!!
I would look at Daystate, FX and RAW or Steyr.
Might not be able to do what you're looking for, but those rifles are SWEET and ridiculous accurate!!
Not sure of the price, but that Steyr Hunitng 5 in semi auto is absolutely gorgeous!!!

Check this work of art out!!!

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1424114866/My+new+Steyr+hunting+5 (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1424114866/My+new+Steyr+hunting+5)
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bryan Heimann on February 19, 2015, 09:10:16 AM
that steyr is something else
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: DavidS on February 19, 2015, 09:10:59 AM
If you are a good enough shot to perfectly compensate for the wind with no error, and the AirRifle has a very good barrel (well made, no deformity, lead lapped, etc), and the AirRifle is .22 or better and capable of sending 18 grain pellets at over 700FPS (in .22, heavier in larger cal), and the shot to shot consistancy is very good with the AirRifle, then the combination of you and AirRifle should be able to do sub MOA at 100 yards.

That actualy leaves a lot of possibilities, and eliminates a lot as well.     Obviously if you want a PCP, then it will have to have a pressure regulator, to keep the shot to shot consistancy.

Though there are many out there that could do the job, many of them will require purchasing the Rifle, Regulator, and LW Barrel, then upgrading the Rifle with the Regulator and LW barrel.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bryan Heimann on February 19, 2015, 09:16:07 AM
David, please don't take this the wrong way, but you might want to do a quick google search about 100 meter benchrest with airguns.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: ptpalpha on February 19, 2015, 09:37:52 AM
I would contact Timmy Mac and inquire about a US FT Benchrest rifle.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bwalton on February 19, 2015, 11:16:58 AM
First off to be able to shoot sub moa @ 100yards is not just the gun, its the shooter and knowing how to read the wind if outside, here is my 100yard group  with my AT44-10 and it did not take $2500 to do it, I say this all the time... If you can shoot under .500 @ 50yards is a good indication that you can do moa @ 100. Now for hunting thats is fine if you are bench rest shooting then a little more is required...If your gun shoots true, no left to right or right to left cork screwing and can shoot in a straight line, then that is 80% of the guns needs the other is a very Low ES, after that it is all up to you and your knowledge. Just to prove that my 100yards were true I took two back to back starlings @ 100yards no problem.... Now for bench rest the use a much heavier pellet like a .30 or .25 to fight against the wind, and much more is involved. That scene is much too involved for me and too time consuming. But in general and in theory there is two very different moa groups, a hunting moa and a bench rest moa which is way more precise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0RNIAlWj4N8#t=388 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0RNIAlWj4N8#t=388)
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: cluny1973 on February 19, 2015, 11:30:07 AM
     I have been able to shoot my FX Boss less than 1 inch ctc. I think that unless you get into a .257 or 9mm big bore, you are going to have a hard time. As mentioned earlier in the thread,diabolo pellets are just not made for that kind of range. A diabolo pellet is like a badmington birdie, it stabilizes in the air by using drag and not spin, hence why a bullet is better suited for range. Also, bullets are heavier and resist wind deflection better. Using pellets for 100 yard shooting is like playing tennis with a nerf ball.

     Your best bet, with the money you have, is an Extreme Big Bore in either .257 or .308. Keep in mind you only get 3 shots per 4200-4500 fill. You will need a carbon fiver tank and a regulator unless you want to charge every 2-3 shots. You want to keep your extreme spread at a minimum, less than 15-20 fps. A regulator will cost you around 400-500 dollars and a carbon fiber tank around 300-800 depending on size. So, assuming you already have a CF tank, you will need to spend about 2000 for an Extreme rifle and a regulator. Throw in a tank and you are looking at 2800 for the set up. It is important you have a CF tank rated for 4500 psi or your not going to be able to fill your gun. A DAQ or XP in the same calibers would work but good luck trying to get one of those.

     Second choice and less expensive is to go for a regulated, high power gun in .25, .30 or 9mm.  A RAW in 9mm will spit a 80 grain pellet at 800 fps. an 80 grain pellet is less affected by air than a 50 or 25 grainer. A RAW would be my choice, followed by an FX Boss or Daystate Wolverine. These last two will shoot a 50 grain pellet at 850 and 950 fps respectively. These 3 guns have match triggers which is essential for accurate shooting. They have a good fitting stock also which is important as well.

Hope this helps
D.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 19, 2015, 01:08:44 PM
Quote
Using pellets for 100 yard shooting is like playing tennis with a nerf ball.
That's the best quote I have ever seen on this subject.... Is it POSSIBLE, yes?.... but it's 90% the shooter's ability to dope the wind unless it's dead calm.... If you expect to hold MOA by just holding on the bull, you will be sorely diasppoionted.... If you want to attempt it with pellets, why not get the gun that just won the Extreme Bench Rest.... The USFT in .30 cal from Tim @ Mac1 Airguns....

If you want to go bullets, with all the advantages of superior BC, you will need a custom PCP.... I would concentrate on .257 cal, (alternately .224 or .308 cal.) or the "new kid on the block" in airguns, the 7mm.... Set the gun up to shoot tethered on a regulator at 2900-3500 psi, from an 88 CF, 4500 psi SCBA tank, and you will have the ability to shoot 2-5 shots without the tether....

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: grauhanen on February 19, 2015, 01:23:19 PM
Budget under $2500. I have air for pcp I own several.  Requirements are sub moa at 100 yards or so, report level comparable to a rws 48 or less.

Thoughts ??
Sub MOA at 100 and quiet as a springer, eh?  No one should enjoy raining on a parade but realistically that's a very tall order -- the sub MOA part, that is.  Such rifles, if they do exist, are few and far between.  The few rifles that may shoot sub MOA don't come shooting that well off the shelf.  It's hard enough to achieve with a .22LR, let alone with a pellet shooting gun.  Pellets simply don't give you the chance to reasonably hope or expect MOA accuracy.  Save your money and spend it on something more attainable than a sub MOA PCP.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: mobilehomer on February 19, 2015, 01:42:20 PM
Sorry for any confusion in my earlier post. I only added this to show that there are many capable guns.
 The ability to do this consistantly is SOLELY on the person behind the trigger. The better the equipment, the better the possible outcome.
 And as always , there is NO SUBSTITUTE for practice!!!
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bwalton on February 19, 2015, 03:16:31 PM
Sorry for any confusion in my earlier post. I only added this to show that there are many capable guns.
 The ability to do this consistantly is SOLELY on the person behind the trigger. The better the equipment, the better the possible outcome.
 And as always , there is NO SUBSTITUTE for practice!!!
indeed
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: ToRmEnToR on February 19, 2015, 05:09:05 PM
First off to be able to shoot sub moa @ 100yards is not just the gun, its the shooter and knowing how to read the wind if outside, here is my 100yard group  with my AT44-10 and it did not take $2500 to do it, I say this all the time... If you can shoot under .500 @ 50yards is a good indication that you can do moa @ 100. Now for hunting thats is fine if you are bench rest shooting then a little more is required...If your gun shoots true, no left to right or right to left cork screwing and can shoot in a straight line, then that is 80% of the guns needs the other is a very Low ES, after that it is all up to you and your knowledge. Just to prove that my 100yards were true I took two back to back starlings @ 100yards no problem.... Now for bench rest the use a much heavier pellet like a .30 or .25 to fight against the wind, and much more is involved. That scene is much too involved for me and too time consuming. But in general and in theory there is two very different moa groups, a hunting moa and a bench rest moa which is way more precise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0RNIAlWj4N8#t=388 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0RNIAlWj4N8#t=388)





Right on..

Wow that Steyr is beautiful!!
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Rimshot on February 20, 2015, 12:26:51 AM
Thanks for the information. I only believed half of what that dealer said anyway. I understand the anomalies of accuracies. I have a .22 cal 1st gen marauder tuned for 30 shots average of 31 fpe and able to shoot ragged holes at 40 yards 1 inch groups at 60 yards off the bench with no wind its favorite pellet and hit 3 inch squares at 75 yards all day. (ie not moa)

I bought it new from that dealer years ago and only paid $420 bucks for it. So it sounds like between 60 and 100 yards the price can go up with diminishing returns and may not deliver the results consistently at any cost.

That being said whats the next best thing for the price maybe go semi auto.



Rimshot

Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: haertig on February 20, 2015, 01:43:58 AM
100 yard sub MOA with a decent centerfire rifle is not terribly difficult (from a bench).  I can hold 0.6 MOA with my stock Howa .223 on a good day.  Most days I'm more like 1.5 MOA though.  I have a friend who is ex-Army sniper who can do 0.4 MOA with my Howa.  With a .22LR, pretty difficult I'd imagine, I've never even come close to sub MOA myself.  But I'm sure there are people who can.  I'm more like 2 MOA and above with .22LR.  With an air rifle, I can't even imagine!  I'd be lucky to even hit the 8" diameter outer ring at 100 yards!

Before spending so much money on an air rifle in hopes it would help you shoot sub MOA at 100 yards, I'd invest in a solid powder burner first, to see if sub MOA is something you can do routinely without problem.  If you can't consistently shoot sub MOA with a decent powder burner, spending 25 bazillion dollars on the best air rifle ever made still won't make you shoot sub MOA.  We would be talking a supreme elite level of air rifle marksmanship, that's for sure, if it's even possible at all.  An expensive rifle doesn't automatically give you that level of shooting ability.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on February 20, 2015, 06:59:37 AM
100 yard sub MOA with a decent centerfire rifle is not terribly difficult (from a bench).  I can hold 0.6 MOA with my stock Howa .223 on a good day.  Most days I'm more like 1.5 MOA though.  I have a friend who is ex-Army sniper who can do 0.4 MOA with my Howa.  With a .22LR, pretty difficult I'd imagine, I've never even come close to sub MOA myself.  But I'm sure there are people who can.  I'm more like 2 MOA and above with .22LR.  With an air rifle, I can't even imagine!  I'd be lucky to even hit the 8" diameter outer ring at 100 yards!

Before spending so much money on an air rifle in hopes it would help you shoot sub MOA at 100 yards, I'd invest in a solid powder burner first, to see if sub MOA is something you can do routinely without problem.  If you can't consistently shoot sub MOA with a decent powder burner, spending 25 bazillion dollars on the best air rifle ever made still won't make you shoot sub MOA.  We would be talking a supreme elite level of air rifle marksmanship, that's for sure, if it's even possible at all.  An expensive rifle doesn't automatically give you that level of shooting ability.

Good post brother !!
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: lillysdad621 on February 20, 2015, 07:48:25 AM
it would be interesting for some of us to shoot 50 yard groups with what we have, so then others can understand and visualize the difficulty of sub moa at 100. just with our best guns, if you can do over 50 yards, thats better. but when people start seen the reality of shooting an air rifle at those distances with any modicum of consistency, it will help them with standards and expectations.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 20, 2015, 12:17:53 PM
The CAF had a challenge a while ago, based on a previous rimfire challenge to submit a target with only 5 groups, no other holes on the paper and nothing covered up, where all five, 5-shot groups, from a bench, shot at 50 yards, were under 1/2" C-T-C (which is MOA).... There were very few ever managed it with a rimfire, and to make it easier to measure the groups the CAF just required that the entire group could be covered with a dime.... This means that with a .22 cal the group would be under 1/2" C-T-C.... Nobody succeeded....

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on February 20, 2015, 02:34:49 PM
 ;D Like I have said before on other threads having the best equipment and ammo is only a part of the equation the rest is all shooter
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: lillysdad621 on February 20, 2015, 05:55:03 PM
Nobody succeeded....

Still, if anyone has pics plz post them... a visual will set  (or adjust) people's expectations...
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 20, 2015, 07:53:00 PM
Only successful targets (five, 5-shots groups inside a dime on one piece of paper) were to be posted, a couple of guys managed it at 35 yards, nobody further out....

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: grauhanen on February 20, 2015, 10:57:57 PM
Only successful targets (five, 5-shots groups inside a dime on one piece of paper) were to be posted, a couple of guys managed it at 35 yards, nobody further out....

Bob
As I recall, in the CAF shooting challenge the maximum successful distance was 40 yards.  No one succeeded at 50.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 20, 2015, 11:01:02 PM
Could be, I know that 50 was never achieved....

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Rimshot on February 21, 2015, 12:47:26 AM
I have bolt action powder burners that I shoot moa right out of the box. There is no challenge for me to shoot powder burners.
The reason I got into air rifles is because I can shoot them on my 7 acres and not bother anyone. I shoot more than 15k rounds between 30 and 120 yards a summer being in MN not so much in the winter. So its not about spending big bucks on an air rifle on the hopes it makes be a better shot. Its an art more than a science and when have you purchased art that was cheap.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: grauhanen on February 21, 2015, 07:46:45 AM
I have bolt action powder burners that I shoot moa right out of the box. There is no challenge for me to shoot powder burners.
The reason I got into air rifles is because I can shoot them on my 7 acres and not bother anyone. I shoot more than 15k rounds between 30 and 120 yards a summer being in MN not so much in the winter. So its not about spending big bucks on an air rifle on the hopes it makes be a better shot. Its an art more than a science and when have you purchased art that was cheap.
A lot of people shoot air rifles to help make them better shots.  But if you're finding "no challenge" to shoot PB's, then you are a great shot already.  A lot of people would envy you.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: ptpalpha on February 21, 2015, 10:52:14 AM
I have bolt action powder burners that I shoot moa right out of the box. There is no challenge for me to shoot powder burners.

I'd be very interested in which bolt action pb's you have that shoot moa straight out of the box.  Not being snarky here...I'm in the market for a new one and your list would be help.  Shoot me a PM so we don't break the rules.
Thanks!
-Paul
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: ptpalpha on February 21, 2015, 10:54:26 AM
The CAF had a challenge a while ago, based on a previous rimfire challenge to submit a target with only 5 groups, no other holes on the paper and nothing covered up, where all five, 5-shot groups, from a bench, shot at 50 yards, were under 1/2" C-T-C (which is MOA).... There were very few ever managed it with a rimfire, and to make it easier to measure the groups the CAF just required that the entire group could be covered with a dime.... This means that with a .22 cal the group would be under 1/2" C-T-C.... Nobody succeeded....

Bob

At the risk of sounding like I have a bad case of hero worship, I'd bet Joe P. could do it with his HW98. 
I'm dead serious.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on February 21, 2015, 11:06:54 AM
 ;D Hope we can give it a try at the first Jersey Fun Shoot this spring that way there will be plenty of eye witnesses to confirm or torture the shooters who won't even try. I personally want to give it a go with my D460 .177 and my RX2 .20  ;) ;) It will be even better if I can shoot a couple of groups that set the bar a little higher for Joe  ;D ;D
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: TheBullsEye on February 21, 2015, 12:06:15 PM
This summer this will be my goal :) sub moa at 100 yards. Today i will try to shoot 1/2 at 50 yards. Got a shooting date today look for a post later for the details :)
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 21, 2015, 01:19:53 PM
Please note, it's not uncommon to get the occasional group under 1/2" at 50 yards with an airgun, or a .22 rimfire.... The challenge is to do it five times in a row.... This started on a rimfire forum in a thread titled something like "So you can shoot 1/2" groups all day at 50 yards with your .22? - Prove it!".... I never read the original thread, nor was it my idea to bring the challenge over to airguns, my only suggestion was to score it by covering the groups with a dime for simplicity.... I also figured that this gave a slight advantage to .177 and disadvantage to .25 cal, compared to .22 cal.... but the larger caliber handles the wind better, generally, so it would level the playing field.... At the moment, I only have one rifle I could consider capable of doing this, my Hatsan AT-44S Long in .25 cal, but have not had the opportunity to try.... nor do I expect to be successful, even though I have several groups at 50 yards that I can cover with a dime.... Doing it 5 times in a row, on a single piece of paper, with no other holes or anything covering the page is the trick.... Like the original challenge.... "So you can do this all day, can you? - Prove it!"....

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: BALLISTIC1 on February 21, 2015, 02:15:16 PM
Whether you can or whether can't, that is the question. If you don't try you will never know.....

I made targets this morning.... There is a foot of snow on the ground.

I have already shot a little today, I am going out to staple up the new targets in a little bit. 5 Bulls per page....

BRASS

Greg
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: jeff76 on February 21, 2015, 02:31:21 PM
just get an accurate rifle and see what you CAN do.  then continuously challenge your previous best.  its that simple. 

can it be done.  sure its possible.  how many 5 shot groups in a row can you do it for?  say you can only do it once.  well then your next goal is to be able to do it twice. 

I think the real question that the op is asking is what is the most accurate air rifle at 100 yard?  and the answer is nobody really knows.  but bob's (rstern) suggestions about caliber and bullet shape would probably be a good place to start. 
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Motorhead on February 21, 2015, 02:44:15 PM
And this thread lives on ...  ;D

(https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.607992160695681180&pid=15.1&P=0)
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on February 21, 2015, 02:52:10 PM
And this thread lives on ...  ;D

;) Scott you have to admit it has many of us that consider ourselves "excellent " shots thinking about it and scratching our respective heads wondering if we can put 25 shots into 5 under a dime size groups in a row . The good news is there is no $50,000 cash prize riding on it only bragging rights ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: jeff76 on February 21, 2015, 02:53:11 PM
I just want to see the guy buy a super expensive rifle, and hopefully shoot some awesome groups.  maybe even achieve the 1 moa at 100 yards on a regular basis. 
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Motorhead on February 21, 2015, 03:07:12 PM
And this thread lives on ...  ;D

;) Scott you have to admit it has many of us that consider ourselves "excellent " shots thinking about it and scratching our respective heads wondering if we can put 25 shots into 5 under a dime size groups in a row . The good news is there is no $50,000 cash prize riding on it only bragging rights ;D ;D ;D

As one who actually shoots semi serious / informal Air Rifle bench rest off Concrete stations, Wind flags etc ...
That task with a .177 at 50 yards ( 25 into 5 dime ) is fairly difficult done outside. ( At 25 easy peezy )
Done with a .22 cal becomes a tad easier, and quite likely easier as calibers get larger  ;) 
Stretch that out to 100 yards and you will open up POI OVER twice your 50.  "Over" because pellet while not only covering twice the distance, travels SLOWER at 50-100 than it did 0-50. The influences of winds, pellets flight dynamics changing as it slows will ALL degrade POA / POI relativity.

Fun discussion, reality however is a tad more telling.  8)   
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Charles Outdoors on February 21, 2015, 03:18:51 PM
  MOA does not mean 3-5 shots covered by a dime as that measures outside to outside and not center to center so no need to try and make it more difficult. That's like 2 .25's touching side by side. That would force a .50 cal. to 1 hole. How about we keep MOA at MOA.  ;)
   
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: grauhanen on February 21, 2015, 03:20:45 PM
And this thread lives on ...  ;D

;) Scott you have to admit it has many of us that consider ourselves "excellent " shots thinking about it and scratching our respective heads wondering if we can put 25 shots into 5 under a dime size groups in a row . The good news is there is no $50,000 cash prize riding on it only bragging rights ;D ;D ;D

As one who actually shoots semi serious / informal Air Rifle bench rest off Concrete stations, Wind flags etc ...
That task with a .177 at 50 yards ( 25 into 5 dime ) is fairly difficult done outside. ( At 25 easy peezy )
Done with a .22 cal becomes a tad easier, and quite likely easier as calibers get larger  ;) 
Stretch that out to 100 yards and you will open up POI OVER twice your 50.  "Over" because pellet while not only covering twice the distance, travels SLOWER at 50-100 than it did 0-50. The influences of winds, pellets flight dynamics changing as it slows will ALL degrade POA / POI relativity.

Fun discussion, reality however is a tad more telling.  8)
Listen to Scott.  Shooting an air rifle at 1/2" groups at 100 yards is in the realm of wishful thinking.  Shooting an air rifle sub 1/2" groups at 50 yards can be done, but it is extremely difficult and hence unlikely to be done repeatedly.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 21, 2015, 04:00:06 PM
Craymar, the most common pellet calibers (and that's the challenge, not for bullets) are .177, 22 (which measures 0.217"), and .25.... A dime measures 0.710" in diameter, so if you can completely cover a group, then the C-T-C measurements are:

.177 cal = 0.533"
.217 cal = 0.493"
.250 cal = 0.460"

That is a 0.073" advantage to the .177 cal, but typically they get pushed around more by the wind.... 1 MOA is 1.047" at 100 yards, or 0.523" C-T-C at 50 yards.... so in theory a group covered by a dime at 50 yards in .177 could be 0.010" over MOA, the other calibers would be slightly less....

The reason I suggested using a dime at 50 yards is because it is MUCH easier to lay a dime over a group and see if anything sticks out than it is to ACCURATELY determine the exact center of five holes, some of which overlap, and then measure the C-T-C distance.... You can't use a plug scoring gauge once the holes are not perfect, round, single holes (ie one shot per target).... So, if you think it is more accurate to ESTIMATE where the centers are to determine whether or not the group is MOA instead of using a constant, easy to use standard (that favours .177 over .25 cal by 0.073") then more power to you.... If you post five MOA groups at 50 yards on one piece of paper with a .35 cal, I'll be the first to admit you properly met the challenge.... Heck I'd even be impressed if you did it with bullets from an airgun instead of pellets.... So get shooting and lets see some results, guys!....

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on February 21, 2015, 04:22:38 PM
 ;D  As long as we use Bob's  Fifty yard distance and 5  groups on one target sheet covered by a US ten cent coin I still feel it may be doable but extremely difficult out doors. The fun is in the trying and again this is for fun and bragging rights NOT $$$$$$$ so let the games begin
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Tater on February 21, 2015, 05:04:47 PM
Put me down for $10 on Palone.   ;D
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on February 21, 2015, 06:01:52 PM
Put me down for $10 on Palone.   ;D
I'll be happy to take your money and buy pellets with it
Title: 5 shots....... 5 Bulls....... 50 yards
Post by: BALLISTIC1 on February 21, 2015, 07:19:45 PM
Hitting a dime at 50 yards every time...... Is a lot different than under a dime at 50 yards every time....

I haven't made any attempts yet. I was just giving it serious thought. I tell non airgun and firearms people I can hit  a dime at fifty yards almost every time but I know i can only hit a dime at fifty yards most of the time (on a bood day more than half).

BRASS

Greg
Title: Re: 5 shots....... 5 Bulls....... 50 yards
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on February 21, 2015, 07:26:36 PM
Hitting a dime at 50 yards every time...... Is a lot different than under a dime at 50 yards every time....

BRASS

Greg
;) Absolutely but remember the guy or gal that does it will leave the rest in total awe of the skill required ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: lillysdad621 on February 21, 2015, 08:39:46 PM
3 pages... no takers... lol
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: pyroboy33 on February 21, 2015, 08:45:21 PM
Sounds like a fun challenge, I'll try it with my cricket as soon as the wind calms down and report back here...
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: grauhanen on February 21, 2015, 08:56:35 PM
3 pages... no takers... lol
There'll be takers, no doubt about it.  It's easy enough to imagine shooting a half-inch group at 50 yards.  But it gets harder and harder to imagine doing it five times in a row with no "fliers" or misses.  You screw up one shot out of 25 and you have failed.  It is a very difficult challenge with an air rifle.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: BALLISTIC1 on February 21, 2015, 09:59:41 PM
 The 5 shot bull may be fun to try but I also think it near impossible.
But I believe that sub 1 inch at 100 yards is.

If we are honest do we have anything to be embarrassed about or be ashamed of.

I have good evidence that goes to support both sides of the discussion.

For whatever reason of the three methods of posting pictures none of them will post a photo here on GTA.
I don't have a problem posting pics on forums, just here.

I will post this link. If someone would be kind enough to repost it as a picture I will explain..

http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h462/1katana/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150212_095115.jpg (http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h462/1katana/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150212_095115.jpg)

BRASS

Greg
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 21, 2015, 10:12:17 PM
Please note, the requirement is NOT to hit a dime 25 times at 50 yards, the placement of the shots on the target is of no consequence, you are not shooting for a score, you are shooting ONLY for the size of the group.... In fact, I would intentionally sight the gun in so that the POI was NOT at the POA, so that the POA would not be obliterated by the holes in the target.... If you typically sight your rifle at 35-40 yards, I wouldn't change it, let the pellets hit an inch or two low.... The requirement is that each of the five 5-shot groups can be covered completely by a dime....

Bob
Title: Picture Posted.
Post by: BALLISTIC1 on February 21, 2015, 10:29:07 PM
My pic posted so here is what I have to lend to this dicussion.

This is a railroad track plate. It is a little over a foot tall. It hangs below my 100 + a few yards.

The square holes in the plate are 3/4'' square..prairie dog silhouette is the target we shoot at at the 'Winter Varmint Shoot'.
.22's at 70yds, .25's at 80 yards and .30's have to shoot 90. The X zone on the target we shoot at is about 1 1/2'' maybe just a little smaller. The X zone on my target was not painted very clearly.

When the target was fresh I shot at the neck, the X, and down lower. Some of the shots were in the wind and you can see where they were blown off but still grouping (touching, stringing) but if you look really close at the bottom of the X zone there are about 7 shots in a neat little group. If you look below that there are about 8 shots stacked up. The hole is 3/4'' square the CTC on that group is about 1/2''. You can also see where I was aiming at the hole and there are several shots struggle together and some shots went through the hole.

Most of the shots that seem wild are from when I get a liitle bored when shooting at the 50 yard line and shoot without refocusing and holding the bottom of the scope on the top of the plate. Unless there is a lot of wind I can hit the plate that way most times.

I hope everyone takes this in good taste and in the interest and pursuit of something we all truely love.

BRASS

Greg
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: MicErs on February 21, 2015, 10:32:15 PM
Please note, the requirement is NOT to hit a dime 25 times at 50 yards, the placement of the shots on the target is of no consequence, you are not shooting for a score, you are shooting ONLY for the size of the group.... In fact, I would intentionally sight the gun in so that the POI was NOT at the POA, so that the POA would not be obliterated by the holes in the target.... If you typically sight your rifle at 35-40 yards, I wouldn't change it, let the pellets hit an inch or two low.... The requirement is that each of the five 5-shot groups can be covered completely by a dime....

Bob
+1  All you have to do is shoot five (5) groups which are zero point five (0.5) inches in diameter at fifty yards on one sheet of paper...

What could be easier?

Show me, don't tell me.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: michaelthomas on February 21, 2015, 10:41:17 PM
This is at 55 yards (50m).  Gun zeroed for 27y (25m).  They all cover with a dime.....although the first one is by far the closest.  I can post with the dime if the measurements are in doubt.  To be honest.....I only took 25 shots at this distance.....I didn't spend all day trying to shoot this.  I shot this for a guy that was inquiring about how one of my 12fpe bench rifles did at 50m.  The conditions were very calm, and a change in that variable alone would be enough to spoil the bunch.

I did exactly as Bob suggested.  I used the sighter bulls at the top to aim at.....with the shots going low.

Mike
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on February 21, 2015, 10:45:47 PM
 8) 8) Mike you're my hero even if the rifle is "just" a 12 FPE PCP rifle  ;) ;)
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: michaelthomas on February 21, 2015, 10:54:47 PM
Believe it or not......this is way harder to do at 25y indoor......than 5 5 shots under a dime at 50 outdoor was.  Overall grouping is probably less than .080".  It has taken probably close to 1000 cards to pull this off.

Mike
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 21, 2015, 11:02:27 PM
Mike, my congratulations.... That is the first time I have seen it done, and at 55 yards instead of 50, no less.... *LOL*.... Heavy Varmint Bench Rifle?....

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on February 21, 2015, 11:05:05 PM
 ;) Some people are just chronic over achievers,  I have a younger brother like that. For him if it is worth doing then it is worth overdoing to the MAX  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: michaelthomas on February 21, 2015, 11:12:07 PM
Thanks, guys......actually Light Varmint bench rifle.  There was just a touch of R to L air movement.....probably 1mph or less. 

Mike
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: lillysdad621 on February 22, 2015, 01:44:08 PM
what kind of rifle is it? again just to give people a point of reference...
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 22, 2015, 01:46:07 PM
Mike builds them, pretty much from scratch.... His Heavy Varmint Bench Rifles are amazing.... and by the looks of it, the LV class are as well.... I don't think I have ever seen a photo of them, however.... *hint hint*

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: lillysdad621 on February 22, 2015, 01:50:44 PM
I think i found a pic of one of its rifles... its amazing!
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: michaelthomas on February 22, 2015, 02:09:28 PM
Thanks....

Here is a picture of a LV/HV mechanical rifle.  Both LV and HV are pretty much the same.....just different power levels.  LV class is limited to 10.5lbs in weight and 12FPE.  HV is 15lbs in weight and 20FPE.  I haven't found any benefit to a HV gun over 10.5 lbs.....so I just leave it at LV weight.  It just takes a few minutes to switch power and barrels from LV to HV.  I shoot .177 (JSB 8.44s) in LV at 795.....and .22 (AA 16.0gr) at 750 in HV.  You can see that they are only meant to do one thing, by the lack of extra features like grips, cheek rests, butts, etc. 

Wind drift with the HV gun at 25m is about half that of LV.......not quite half, but very close.

Mike
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 22, 2015, 02:17:27 PM
What does the weight include?.... Is that massive, adjustable front rest part of it (I would think not).... Is the silver block under the blue "stock" part of the gun or the rest?.... Interesting that you find no difference between 10.5 lbs. and 15 lbs. in the HV class.... What is the blue "box" above the trigger, on top of the tube?....

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on February 22, 2015, 02:23:48 PM
 ;D Very nice but who picks the color scheme, you build some amazing rifles Mike ;)
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: michaelthomas on February 22, 2015, 02:32:15 PM
Thanks again..

Bob,

Weights are rifle including scope.

The front silver thing is what I call the shoe.  We are allowed a 3" wide forend on the gun to sit in the rest.  It is part of the rifle and included in the weight.  The front rest or rear bag is not included in the weight of the rifle.  My rest weighs about 25lbs.....and the rear bag is about 15lbs (heavy sand).

The blue box is the cocking mechanism.  Pic of the internals.

Don....the customer chooses the colors.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on February 22, 2015, 02:35:25 PM
 ;) Mike you do great work if I ever get tired of free shooting I will have to talk to you about a bench rest rifle to play with. The only problem will be hiding it in plain sight like I do with the rest of my collection ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: grauhanen on February 22, 2015, 04:03:44 PM
That's a good looking BR rifle and set up.  I'll bet that front rest costs about as much as a good springer.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on February 22, 2015, 04:07:13 PM
 ;D Grau if I'm not mistaken I think on another thread I remember Mike saying that he modeled it off of another design so it is probably another home made Michael Thomas original   8) ;D
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: MicErs on February 22, 2015, 07:54:42 PM
Believe it or not......this is way harder to do at 25y indoor......than 5 5 shots under a dime at 50 outdoor was.  Overall grouping is probably less than .080".  It has taken probably close to 1000 cards to pull this off.

Mike
Awesome shooting!
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: MicErs on February 22, 2015, 07:58:13 PM
This is at 55 yards (50m).  Gun zeroed for 27y (25m).  They all cover with a dime.....although the first one is by far the closest.  I can post with the dime if the measurements are in doubt.  To be honest.....I only took 25 shots at this distance.....I didn't spend all day trying to shoot this.  I shot this for a guy that was inquiring about how one of my 12fpe bench rifles did at 50m.  The conditions were very calm, and a change in that variable alone would be enough to spoil the bunch.

I did exactly as Bob suggested.  I used the sighter bulls at the top to aim at.....with the shots going low.

Mike
Beautiful target.  You got to be proud of that.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: michaelthomas on February 22, 2015, 08:16:53 PM
Thanks again...

Don has me figured out....lol.  I make all of my own stuff.  If I had to buy a rifle and rest....I doubt I would be shooting benchrest.

Mike
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Smoketown on February 23, 2015, 03:57:11 AM
'Cmon Mike ...

You don't just build bench guns.

I've seen photos of a drop dead gorgeous (red) FT rifle you made.  ;)

Cheers,
Smoketown



Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: michaelthomas on February 23, 2015, 01:40:22 PM
Ya....I guess I build all kinds of stuff.

Here is kind of a neat 5 axis robotic arm I built for a local company to load and unload a second operation CNC horizontal slotting machine (made that, too).  It will hold .0005" all day (and night).....it has to load pins into a collet for slotting.  The collet opening is about .0025" bigger than the pin.  It doesn't have any problem. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1o1ps9Yfto (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1o1ps9Yfto)

Mike
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: emi on February 23, 2015, 03:17:32 PM
Sub MOA? Check this: http://100mairgun.nl/post/2010/11/16-Joule-EV2-schiet-gerafeld-gaatje-op-100m.aspx (http://100mairgun.nl/post/2010/11/16-Joule-EV2-schiet-gerafeld-gaatje-op-100m.aspx)
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 23, 2015, 03:30:11 PM
That was done indoors.... Read my comments earlier in the thread.... I'd love to see an airgun shooting pellets do that repeatedly outdoors....

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: StevenG on February 23, 2015, 03:48:23 PM
Just to add, that appears to be a three shot group. Lets see him do like Rsterne requested. 5 shots, on 5 bulls, all on the same target sheet.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bwalton on February 23, 2015, 03:48:51 PM
I am 90% certain  that I can do 5 groups of 5 under 1"@ 100yards, here is a group that I was shooting outside while hunting from a tri-pod an hunting stool, just because someone ask to see a 100yard group from my rifle. I do not shoot bench rest or ever will not my thing....I just have the need to be able to place the pellet where I want at various yards. Bench rest is way more involved, so don't have time for that game. Also if I was going to shoot bench rest, it would not be with a hunting rifle, I would turn to Tim @ Mac1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0RNIAlWj4N8#t=387 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0RNIAlWj4N8#t=387)
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: emi on February 23, 2015, 04:14:17 PM
It's been done:

http://100mairgun.nl/post/2010/11/16-Joule-EV2-schiet-gerafeld-gaatje-op-100m.aspx (http://100mairgun.nl/post/2010/11/16-Joule-EV2-schiet-gerafeld-gaatje-op-100m.aspx)
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: StevenG on February 23, 2015, 04:15:57 PM
That is indoors, and only 3 pellets.

Let's see a 5 or 10 shot group.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bwalton on February 23, 2015, 04:19:21 PM
Yes only 3 shots inside, the deal is 5, 5 shot groups back to back, much harder then it sounds. thats 25 pellets all under an inch outside with no fliers :o
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 23, 2015, 04:25:11 PM
Great shooting, I am also very impressed with the way my AT-44 S-10 Long .225 cal shoots, and have lots of dime sized groups at 50 yards, and like you, approaching MOA at 100 yards for 5 shots, but somehow that last one always seems to open it up, doesn't it.... Funny how that happens.... The five, 5-shot MOA group challenge was to make the guys that said they could do that all day prove it.... Few managed with .22LR, and so far, we have a group of one with bench rest airgun.... I hope you manage it.... and that lots of shooters here do as well.... It should be a lot easier (in theory) to do 5 under a dime at 50 yards than 1" at 100....

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bwalton on February 23, 2015, 04:41:32 PM
Great shooting, I am also very impressed with the way my AT-44 S-10 Long .225 cal shoots, and have lots of dime sized groups at 50 yards, and like you, approaching MOA at 100 yards for 5 shots, but somehow that last one always seems to open it up, doesn't it.... Funny how that happens.... The five, 5-shot MOA group challenge was to make the guys that said they could do that all day prove it.... Few managed with .22LR, and so far, we have a group of one with bench rest airgun.... I hope you manage it.... and that lots of shooters here do as well.... It should be a lot easier (in theory) to do 5 under a dime at 50 yards than 1" at 100....

Bob
Bob I think that it has a lot to do with the o-ring that holds the pellets. as the pellets are used the o-ring becomes loose, Not seating the pellet the same every time. I have tried various o-rings smaller in size to tighten up the pellets when there are only a few left in the clip. If I could load them one at a time that would confirm my theory. But have not gotten around to that as of yet, too many GS to deal with ;D
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bwalton on February 23, 2015, 04:43:11 PM
What I can try is to shoot 4 hots stop and fill the clip back up, that would also be an indication......
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: michaelthomas on February 23, 2015, 06:47:23 PM
Good shooting, Baxter. 

I noticed that there is someone that commented on Baxter's YouTube video.....he can shoot at 50 under a dime all day long.  That seems to be the very sort of comment that started the 5 groups of 5 under a dime challenge.

I would love to be able to shoot 1/4" groups "all day" at 25m.  I would settle for just 75 shots in a row.  That would absolutely guarantee me a win at any outdoor benchrest competition on the planet ;D ;D ;D....against the best shooters with the best rifles at the toughest locations.  I can shoot 1/4" groups at 25m......but not all day......sometimes not even for a minute or two....lol.  It's pretty dang tough in the wind. 

Mike



Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 23, 2015, 07:09:54 PM
After you guys get bored with 5 groups under a dime a 50 yards, you can move to 5 groups under a quarter (0.94" OD) at 70 yards.... The C-T-C is....

.177 cal = 0.763"
.217 cal = 0.723"
.250 cal = 0.690"

For exactly 1 MOA C-T-C (1.047" @ 100 yards) the ranges required are....

.177 cal = 73 yards
.217 cal = 69 yards
.250 cal = 66 yards

When you've done that, you can borrow a few $2.00 Canadian coins (Toonies) which are 1.10" across and move out to 85 yards.... That gives the following C-T-C sizes....

.177 cal = 0.923"
.217 cal = 0.883"
.250 cal = 0.850"

For exactly 1 MOA, that works out to the following ranges....

.177 cal = 88 yards
.217 cal = 84 yards
.250 cal = 81 yards

Sorry, our $5.00 coin hasn't been released yet.... *LOL*....

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bwalton on February 23, 2015, 08:54:43 PM
Mike I think that all day long is just a figure of speech, which means that your gun is very accurate, it's not a literal sense.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: michaelthomas on February 23, 2015, 09:06:58 PM
Ya.....I know it's not meant to be literal.  I think it's silly, though.   ;D ;D

Mike
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: pyroboy33 on February 23, 2015, 09:30:38 PM
I am 90% certain  that I can do 5 groups of 5 under 1"@ 100yards, here is a group that I was shooting outside while hunting from a tri-pod an hunting stool, just because someone ask to see a 100yard group from my rifle. I do not shoot bench rest or ever will not my thing....I just have the need to be able to place the pellet where I want at various yards. Bench rest is way more involved, so don't have time for that game. Also if I was going to shoot bench rest, it would not be with a hunting rifle, I would turn to Tim @ Mac1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0RNIAlWj4N8#t=387 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0RNIAlWj4N8#t=387)

Really? That is a pretty lofty claim  ::).... I would really like to see that actually done. Anyone who shoots for accuracy knows that one group is hardly a accurate representation of what the gun can consistently do. I have shot some groups at 100 yards where 4 of the shots are in the same hole, but that does not mean it can be done consistently and therefore I do not go around bragging that I have a one hole gun at 100 yards  ;).
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: K.O. on February 23, 2015, 09:30:59 PM
Hey Bob since its all Loonie/Toonie with the target practice could you post figures for the .224 NAA ammo I am keeping an eye out for a WMR barrel to send them down range with... But yep my goal should be to be Looney Toone accurate at 50+ meters... ;)

I think we can learn a lot from the Bench guns/guys to help make sure when we miss it is us... not our equipment  I think some of the ideas will carry even to 100$ pumper...



I am happy hitting a quarter side rested at 30-35 yards with pellets I really should spend a few days benched to see just what each of my pumperbuilds is capable of...

I do wonder just how far I can be accurate (40-50 pumps each shot would make you want them to count ;) ) .45 ci valve  22" Marlin .22 WMR  barrel tossing 30 grain bullets at about 750-800fps... I would be so cool to be able to get good 50+ yard groups... with a cheap home built pumper ;D :o 8) ??? hey it's a goal 8)

way back when T-22 ammo was actually good ammo I was pretty good with Dads Remington 512  .5 groups at 50 yards was common...
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 23, 2015, 09:46:49 PM
The challenge is 5 groups, 5 shots each, no other holes in the paper, nothing covering any part of the paper in the pic, and each group can be covered completely with a dime, target to be shot at 50 yards, with pellets, not bullets (although if you do it with bullets, post it anyway), any caliber.... Most attempts I have seen the guy covers the group with a dime and draws around it with a pen.... then scans or photographs the sheet showing the five circled groups....

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bwalton on February 23, 2015, 09:51:12 PM
I am 90% certain  that I can do 5 groups of 5 under 1"@ 100yards, here is a group that I was shooting outside while hunting from a tri-pod an hunting stool, just because someone ask to see a 100yard group from my rifle. I do not shoot bench rest or ever will not my thing....I just have the need to be able to place the pellet where I want at various yards. Bench rest is way more involved, so don't have time for that game. Also if I was going to shoot bench rest, it would not be with a hunting rifle, I would turn to Tim @ Mac1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0RNIAlWj4N8#t=387 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0RNIAlWj4N8#t=387)



Really? That is a pretty lofty claim  ::).... I would really like to see that actually done. Anyone who shoots for accuracy knows that one group is hardly a accurate representation of what the gun can consistently do. I have shot some groups at 100 hundred where 4 of the shots are in the same hole, but that does not mean it can be done consistently and therefore I do not go around bragging that I have a one hole gun at 100 yards  ;).
Well it's never ending, I know what I can do, and it's more to it then just putting the crosshairs in the center and pulling the trigger. When I said that I can shot under .500@50, I had to put up a video to show that, then they said  do a group under 1inch @ 100, so I took time out to do that. The gun does not loose it's accuracy, it's the person shooting the gun that has to make the right decisions every shot., And I said that I am 90% sure. That is based on my skill level. So when I get around to it I will post it, make it or not. Right now I'm in hunting mode. So it may be a while. Sorry to upset you with my comment.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 23, 2015, 10:04:38 PM
If it's show and tell, here is my Hatsan .25 cal, JSB Kings at 50 yards....

(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Hatsan%20AT44-10/50ydHatsanJSB_zpse4bb129b.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Hatsan%20AT44-10/50ydHatsanJSB_zpse4bb129b.jpg.html)

Clearly that is 5 shots under a dime.... and at 100 yards....

(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Hatsan%20AT44-10/100ydHatsanJSB_zps8242a781.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Hatsan%20AT44-10/100ydHatsanJSB_zps8242a781.jpg.html)

The target at 100 yards has 1/2" small squares and 2" large squares, so the group is about 1.3" C-T-C.... These aren't unique, but they are the best I did that day.... However, there is no way I can do that five times in a row, and I freely admit it....

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on February 23, 2015, 10:24:43 PM
I will only believe it if I see it in person, ........repetitive under 1" groups @ 100 yards with a Hatsan.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: pyroboy33 on February 23, 2015, 10:29:25 PM
I am 90% certain  that I can do 5 groups of 5 under 1"@ 100yards, here is a group that I was shooting outside while hunting from a tri-pod an hunting stool, just because someone ask to see a 100yard group from my rifle. I do not shoot bench rest or ever will not my thing....I just have the need to be able to place the pellet where I want at various yards. Bench rest is way more involved, so don't have time for that game. Also if I was going to shoot bench rest, it would not be with a hunting rifle, I would turn to Tim @ Mac1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0RNIAlWj4N8#t=387 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0RNIAlWj4N8#t=387)



Really? That is a pretty lofty claim  ::).... I would really like to see that actually done. Anyone who shoots for accuracy knows that one group is hardly a accurate representation of what the gun can consistently do. I have shot some groups at 100 hundred where 4 of the shots are in the same hole, but that does not mean it can be done consistently and therefore I do not go around bragging that I have a one hole gun at 100 yards  ;).
Well it's never ending, I know what I can do, and it's more to it then just putting the crosshairs in the center and pulling the trigger. When I said that I can shot under .500@50, I had to put up a video to show that, then they said  do a group under 1inch @ 100, so I took time out to do that. The gun does not loose it's accuracy, it's the person shooting the gun that has to make the right decisions every shot., And I said that I am 90% sure. That is based on my skill level. So when I get around to it I will post it, make it or not. Right now I'm in hunting mode. So it may be a while. Sorry to upset you with my comment.

Not upset at all, just extremely skeptical when you throw out that you can put 25 shots into 5 sub inch groups in a row at 100 yards,  when no one on the entire yellow forum with any gun from the Steyrs to the RAWs to the FXs could accomplish such a feat during last years 100 yard challenge:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1391376920 (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1391376920)
No one did it, and you claim that you are basically certain that you can do it with your Hatsan (nothing wrong with the Hatsans, but i think its fair to say they are not known as real "precision" guns). I will believe it when I see it....
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bwalton on February 23, 2015, 11:29:10 PM
Stay tuned, that's all I will say, and if you want to see it in person fly on out, we can do some gs hunting on the side....Yes I will give it a shot. As you can see on my utube I have no problem posting groups. But I fail to see other utube groups. I will start with the 50, then move to the 100... Maybe in the next month or so.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: William on February 23, 2015, 11:33:42 PM
Ya....I guess I build all kinds of stuff.

Here is kind of a neat 5 axis robotic arm I built for a local company to load and unload a second operation CNC horizontal slotting machine (made that, too).  It will hold .0005" all day (and night).....it has to load pins into a collet for slotting.  The collet opening is about .0025" bigger than the pin.  It doesn't have any problem. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1o1ps9Yfto (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1o1ps9Yfto)

Mike
Love the joystick front rest  ;D
Really nice work, your bench guns seem like they are about as smooth as butter, loading and cocking. The sealed roller bearing is one of the best features I have seen!

William
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: michaelthomas on February 24, 2015, 01:00:46 AM
Thanks...I forgot about that rest.  I never really got used to it.  It was great for gross adjustments and moving from target to target.....but it was tougher and ultimately slower than I liked for the small precision moves on wind changes. 

Baxter.....I'm driving out to Open Grove for the next match on March 8th.  You should come out and shoot with us since it's in your backyard.  Your .22 should be OK for the Open class.....it might be a little higher in power, but I don't think anyone will care.   Joe has wind flags you can use, and I'm sure we could come up with anything else you might need (Rest, Bags).  It's a good time.

25 shots at 25m is a card.  A person only needs to hold .304" center to center to shoot a perfect 250 card.....and that's well above the 1MOA challenge.  There have been a few 250's shot there in the morning, but none that I'm aware of in the afternoon.  If you don't feel like shooting the match.....come down on Saturday for practice.  I will gladly be your witness for the 50 yard...5 5shot groups under a dime.  I would like to meet you in person....maybe we could get lunch or something.

Mike

Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: TheBullsEye on February 24, 2015, 01:32:00 AM
i was doing some shooting today and if i ever get a nice calm day im almost positive i could group 1" at one hundred yards that dang wind is just so nasty where i shoot it make it hard to predict
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Gertrude on February 24, 2015, 01:51:02 AM
wow,
It's interesting to see how context of statements and figures of speech, are sometimes used outside of their intent, to make points or arguments either valid or not.

 I'm not chiming in here to defend either side, or any particular claims... and I am certainly not of the skill level to compete in serious competition... but I do admire and aspire to learn from those who do.

 I think comparing hunting to competitive bench rest is apples to oranges.
 Sure, both disciplines require some common considerations and disciplines. Both can share some common challenges. Both are seeking the best possible consistency and accuracy, and both have similarities in their respective ultimate goals.
 That being, to hit what you are aiming at. Again and again.
 That's what makes it fun. That's what keeps us wanting to improve "Our Game".

 I think that whatever particular rifle a person chooses to shoot, is less important,... than if it effectively serves their purposes well, and they are satisfied with what they can do with it.

 Sometimes that can even be outside of what the popular beliefs or are.

case in point-
 how often do we see a recommendation to a newby who is asking what rifle should he get for XYZ purpose,...
 and he is told that a MM tuned Chinese clone, will spank the pants off of a bone stock popular European model that it was copied from.

I'm not really sure if there is a point that I am trying to make here,... other than if someone is happy with what they use to effectively accomplish their goals, then why should anyone poo-poo on their parade.

If we are happy with the performance of our chosen tools and they serve us well for our intended purpose, then it should not matter whether it is a tool popular among the competing class, or the sporting class.

 If it does what we need it to do, to a level of acceptable performance for our needs, then who's to say it is sub-par.

We all have some pride in what we enjoy and shoot, and we all have some pride in the accomplishments we achieve.
 that's what it's really all about, right ?, 
 To enjoy the sport, (and hopefully the sometimes surprising results), that we might not expect out of ourselves, and/or our equipment.

ok,... I'm done rambling now.

Cheers.



 
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: michaelthomas on February 24, 2015, 02:21:46 AM
I'm not sure who is comparing benchrest to hunting.  We're comparing MOA to MOA.  Generally speaking.....if you can shoot MOA consistently with a hunting rifle, doing it from a bench should not prove any more challenging.

Anyway.....I was thinking about this for a little bit, and here is what I came up with.  I know that my bench rifles will shoot 25 shots indoors with an outside to outside measurement of .315 or less......and that computes to about .155" ctc if you figure a .177 prints a .160 visible hole on good paper.  That sort of grouping will yield you a 750 with 45-55x's.

I also know that my outdoor 50m 5 5 shot groups averaged .319" ctc on a very calm day.....so that is roughly double what I see at 25 indoor.  It seems reasonable that a 100yard 25 shot group should be about .650 ish with no wind influence from one of my rifles.

That leaves a whopping .350" left for wind deflection (roughly) to stay within the 1 MOA parameter at 100y.  If we figure a .22 shooting JSB Heavies at 940fps......that means it will take a mere 1/2mph wind velocity change over any of the 4 subsequent shots to spoil your 5 shot group.  You would, at least, need knowledge of the 1/2 mph change to be able to compensate for the drift to save it.

I know that I cannot detect a 1/2mph wind change with my flags or my wind velocity indicator that I use for benchrest at 25m.

That seems like very long odds to me.....but maybe not impossible.  Bullets would be a whole different game.

Mike

Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Rocker1 on February 24, 2015, 03:32:57 AM
Front row Watching, with  Mt Dew and Cracker Jacks.  David
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: K.O. on February 24, 2015, 03:41:52 AM
I just wish that even on the cheaper rifles the transfer port  was in the breech thus allowing indexing the barrels... and thus getting just a little closer to the equipment being up to the challenge... ;)
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on February 24, 2015, 07:59:09 AM
 ;) ;D I wish for world peace but we all know that's not going to happen any time soon. Putting that aside the intent is for this was to be a "Friendly Competition".This whole thing evolved from a can it be done statement to a lets give it a try friendly competition.  In the spirit of that intent and " Rocker 1 " watching from the front row with chips and dip lets observe the rules #2 & #13.  :o ::) ;D ;D

I was just thinking that if I had my old Remington 513T and could convert it to a .22 cal spring pellet rifle that rig would be perfect for this application there were many occasions when my targets had to be scored with a bullet gauge ;D ;D
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bwalton on February 24, 2015, 10:21:01 AM
I'm not sure who is comparing benchrest to hunting.  We're comparing MOA to MOA.  Generally speaking.....if you can shoot MOA consistently with a hunting rifle, doing it from a bench should not prove any more challenging.

Anyway.....I was thinking about this for a little bit, and here is what I came up with.  I know that my bench rifles will shoot 25 shots indoors with an outside to outside measurement of .315 or less......and that computes to about .155" ctc if you figure a .177 prints a .160 visible hole on good paper.  That sort of grouping will yield you a 750 with 45-55x's.

I also know that my outdoor 50m 5 5 shot groups averaged .319" ctc on a very calm day.....so that is roughly double what I see at 25 indoor.  It seems reasonable that a 100yard 25 shot group should be about .650 ish with no wind influence from one of my rifles.

That leaves a whopping .350" left for wind deflection (roughly) to stay within the 1 MOA parameter at 100y.  If we figure a .22 shooting JSB Heavies at 940fps......that means it will take a mere 1/2mph wind velocity change over any of the 4 subsequent shots to spoil your 5 shot group.  You would, at least, need knowledge of the 1/2 mph change to be able to compensate for the drift to save it.

I know that I cannot detect a 1/2mph wind change with my flags or my wind velocity indicator that I use for benchrest at 25m.

That seems like very long odds to me.....but maybe not impossible.  Bullets would be a whole different game.

Mike
What exactly do you think I am doing? putting the cross hairs in the center and pulling the trigger? No in the video my aim point was at a different spot every shot. When im out with my friends hunting and im taking a long distance shot I do not even shoot until the wind direction is confirmed. I thought that this would be a fun thing to do for everyone but I see that it is turning into something else.....and that .650 number that you came up with for a 100yards I guess means nothing seeing that was the exact number of my 4 shot group in my video. If you had a barrel that you would say is very accurate a TJ barrel or LW what causes the pellet to shoot tight groups? Is it the cost of the gun? or would it be the looks? or would it be the barrel, proper pellets, air, a low ES, and a good shooter? is there any thing else that you need or am I missing some thing? Oh and a good scope....once the pellet is inside the barrel what pushes them out? If I put one of your barrels on my gun using the same ES using the same pellets, and scope, and had the same skills, what would change?
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: michaelthomas on February 24, 2015, 11:17:58 AM
Baxter,

I see that you think I am picking on you.....and I am sorry that I made you feel that way.  It was not at all my intent.  If you could talk with me about this face to face you would be able to pick up on my body language, tone, and other visual cues that are not apparent in text.....and you would not feel the same.  Again, I'm sorry.  My point is that I don't think I am capable of 25 sub MOA shots in a row at 100y outdoors in conditions.

I enjoy analysis of things, and I'm certain that my love of analysis has made me a better shooter.  I am, also,  absolutely certain that the world is full of people with greater shooting abilities than my own......some may be competitors, and some may not.  That much is irrelevant.  As far as guns go, I think it is readily apparent from users across the country that my rifles are certainly (at least)  competitive with any pellet rifle available.

The numbers that I came up with were in no way related to you or your rifle.  They are real world numbers that I believe my own rifle could hold for 25 shots without any wind influence (indoors).  My 25y numbers are rock solid and repeatable for me and my rifle indoors.  The rest is mostly just extrapolation, since I almost never shoot at any other distance.  But I think it is fair for me to say that my own rifle will not shoot any better than .650" on average for 25 shots at 100y indoors.....and that may possibly be generous.  If I were to think in terms of less shots.....like 5, then the numbers would be much smaller.  Since the whole challenge idea is 25 shots.....25 seemed fitting to me.

I really have no idea what you are doing when shooting.  I have no way of understanding that unless you convey it to me.  I did assume that you must be compensating for wind, however..... I have no idea what method you use to determine wind velocity, angle, and such in the field with no instruments.  I would rate my own ability to judge wind with natural indicators to put me in a range of about 5mph. 

My own experience on a 25m range is this......without wind flags, my scores are always much lower than with wind flags.....no matter what the conditions may seem like.   If you have developed an accurate way of determining wind velocity, etc. using only natural indicators (grass, trees, etc).....believe me, I want to spend some time with you.  That sort of information would be extremely beneficial.

Again.....if I offended you, it was not intentional......and I apologize.

Mike


Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: nervoustrigger on February 24, 2015, 12:20:26 PM
Baxter for what it's worth, as an outsider looking in, I did not get the sense that Michael was picking on you.  I think he was just illustrating how extraordinarily difficult it is to coax pellets into a tight group at 100 yards with any degree of repeatability where wind is in any way a factor.  A variation of 1mph pretty much obliterates 1 MoA.

Your marksmanship is impressive to me.  But do I think you can put together 1 MoA at 100 yards outdoors for 5 consecutive groups?  I don't.  I would be super impressed if you managed to do it for 2 of the 5 groups.  I'm rooting for you!
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bwalton on February 24, 2015, 12:29:51 PM
No worries Mike, we are two different shooters, I am a Hunter do in the field there is no wind flags, much like military snipers, you have to be able to adjust on the fly. One note is that at Joes place it is very different, it is surrounded by rows of trees, cause much turbulence, and not a natural wind flow. That's why the flags there will be doing something different all the way to the target. I am by no means an expert I just study and practice the wind conditions. If you were to practice with no flags it would be insane at Joes place. The wind can change every minute. So you have to try and wait for your wind fiction.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bwalton on February 24, 2015, 12:43:22 PM
No worries Mike, we are two different shooters, I am a Hunter so in the field there is no wind flags, much like military snipers, you have to be able to adjust on the fly. One note is that at Joes place it is very different, it is surrounded by rows of trees, cause much turbulence, and not a natural wind flow. That's why the flags there will be doing something different all the way to the target. I am by no means an expert I just study and practice the wind conditions. If you were to practice with no flags it would be insane at Joes place. The wind can change every minute. So you have to try and wait for your wind shot
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 24, 2015, 12:52:20 PM
It was not my intention to pick on anyone.... I'm with Mike on this, 100%.... While the (best) airguns are certainly capable of sub MOA groups at 100 yards, indoors, it only takes 1 mph or less of wind to spoil a group.... The old Beaufort Scale describes the effects of wind in this way....

Beaufort 0: Calm, smoke rises vertically.... Wind speed < 0.7 mph
Beaufort 1: Smoke drift indicates wind direction, leaves and wind vanes are stationary.... Wind speed 0.7 - 3.4 mph
Beaufort 2: Wind felt on exposed skin, leaves rustle, wind vanes begin to move.... Wind speed 3.4 - 7.4 mph

Note that Mike shows why just 1/2 mph of wind can spoil a MOA group at 100 yards when shooting pellets.... Then note that there is NO visible indication for that little wind (even though the best wind vanes will now respond at < 3.4 mph, they won't at < 1 mph).... Then multiply the likelihood of that happening by 25 shots.... Can it be done?.... Yes.... I think what Mike and I are trying to say is that you can't compensate consistently for something you don't know is there.... which injects a large portion of luck into the equation if you are outside....

On the other hand, in any competition, the more you practice, the luckier you get !!!

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: michaelthomas on February 24, 2015, 12:59:37 PM
Bob......you do a nice job of nutshelling ideas.   ;D ;D

Mike
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: palonej on February 24, 2015, 01:20:04 PM
When Bob posts even knuckle heads like me can understand.....most of the time!
I love shooting at further distances.
I shoot mid powered springers and have ~ 125 yards to play with.
This target was shot at 80 yards.
First 5 shots were ranging shots then I put a bunch into the center group.
Pretty sure it was 10 or 11 shots.
Very little wind if any.
6" Birchwood Casey target.
Add 20 more yards??? Much tougher!!
I'm pretty sure that is the best I can do with my rifles....shot that target with the 97.
Used to do better with the 56, but that thing just falls apart constantly!!
I'd love to give it a try with Mr Thomas' magical inflatable tho!!!

Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: grauhanen on February 24, 2015, 02:16:01 PM
Without aids such as flags or good anemometers it is very difficult to shoot sub MOA at 100 yards with a .22LR; it's even more difficult to do repeatedly.  It is extraordinarily difficult to do with pellets.  If the wind is slight enough to be undetectable without aids, it is virtually impossible to shoot pellets sub MOA at 100 yards repeatedly.  Of course, virtually impossible is not exactly the same as completely and utterly impossible -- but it's awfully close.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on February 24, 2015, 02:43:04 PM
 ;D That's why even those that " Just Hunt " still practice even when not hunting. I shoot almost every day sometimes only 50 to 100 sometimes 2 to 3 hundred shots. It depends on my mood and which rifle I am shooting at the time  ;D ;D
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Slavia on February 24, 2015, 03:15:18 PM
I agree with Bob that you can't "compensate consistently for something you don't know is there", and I would take it a step further from perception to include prediction.  At my range there is always wind - sometimes the imperceptible gusts Bob mentioned, and sometimes so strong it moves me and the gun.  It isn't always from the same direction or of the same velocity. It doesn't always enter or leave the range in the same place.  For sure it will change during my shooting session.  Sometimes it changes between shots.  Sometimes right when I pull the trigger (and before the pellet reaches the target).  On a good day I can read it, and on a bad day it's just plain frustrating.

For several years now I have used a modified Crosman G1 with a 3-9X32AO mildot scope and 10.5 grain .177 Ultramags on a 10" pot lid at 100 yards.  I hit about 80%.  (In a dead calm it will do about a 5" group at that range.)  I understand I would get more precision from a better gun, likely a PCP, and in a larger caliber.  Still, this setup has taught me several things.  One of them is about who the "competition" is.  The answer is "myself," not the person sitting at the next bench.  From that perspective I'm winning, because I'm getting better.  (I started out hitting a 55 gallon drum lid about 10% of the time.)  Another lesson learned relates to which mods will make a difference and which won't.  I also know more about the wind.  Not just grass blowing, but where it's moving and where it's not.  Puffs of dust and leaf deflection from pellet impact.  Not just leaves rustling, but from which grove of trees, and if it's a "rustle" or a "roar" (and not just a flock of birds).

Getting back to the original question - the gun is important, but more so the shooter.  Especially at 100 yards, where the rules change a bit.  $2500 is a decent budget.  My suggestion would be to take one of the guns you already have and try it out.  You'll probably get a better sense of your own environmental conditions and the gun features you'll need to deal with it.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Charles Outdoors on February 24, 2015, 03:31:19 PM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around how a 1-5 mph crosswind can have much effect on a heavy pellet at say 50 yards. Something like a 31 grain .25 barracuda travelling at 950 - 1050 fps. The flight time is so short. I could see 15-20 mph wind causing 1/2 to maybe 1" at that range.

Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: K.O. on February 24, 2015, 03:51:50 PM
A 15 mph crosswind would move it more than that imo 3"-4" by the time its 50 yards its down to about 750 fps

I do think H&N has been paying attention they are showing some new heavies for distance and knock down fpe...

Wonder when they will hit our U.S. shores....

I think in .177  a 1:15 barrel just might work for this one and the JSB Beast if I can get a pumper to chunk them fast enough...

http://www.hn-sport.de/en/products/air-gun-pellets/hunting-and-field-target/piledriver.html (http://www.hn-sport.de/en/products/air-gun-pellets/hunting-and-field-target/piledriver.html)

the have a new name on the scene that implies long range accuracy....

http://www.hn-sport.de/en/products/air-gun-pellets/hunting-and-field-target/sniper-light.html (http://www.hn-sport.de/en/products/air-gun-pellets/hunting-and-field-target/sniper-light.html)

http://www.hn-sport.de/en/products/air-gun-pellets/hunting-and-field-target/sniper-medium.html (http://www.hn-sport.de/en/products/air-gun-pellets/hunting-and-field-target/sniper-medium.html)

http://www.hn-sport.de/en/products/air-gun-pellets/hunting-and-field-target/sniper-magnum.html (http://www.hn-sport.de/en/products/air-gun-pellets/hunting-and-field-target/sniper-magnum.html)
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: rsterne on February 24, 2015, 04:38:37 PM
Those new "Sniper" pellets from H&N appear to be "aimed" straight at the "Exact" part of the market occupied by JSB.... *grin*....

Bob
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: nervoustrigger on February 24, 2015, 04:48:29 PM
Competition is a beautiful thing! ;D
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Charles Outdoors on February 24, 2015, 07:24:44 PM
I'm really liking H&N pellets. I fed almost full tin of pellets through the other day. All seated by thumb and not one felt tight or loose. All snugged in just right.

Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bwalton on February 24, 2015, 08:31:52 PM
I came home straight from work to practice a little and to see how the gun responds to fill pressure, I have never in my life shot like this, this is my very first paper or card . I called Joe to buy some of the sheets that they use for bench rest.the conditions are67deg winds 12mph west 25yards. At the range it is 2.5 yards more, I only have 25 yards here at home. The high shoots are after I fill the gun. So I did start to adjust for it after refilling. I am going to shoot my second paper now and should be much better. The squares are just under an inch and the dots are .275
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bwalton on February 24, 2015, 08:58:52 PM
Here is my 2nd group or sheet, I had missed my refill point on shot number 13 and it changed my poi on my 1st shot after the refill,  so I had to readjust from there. I am going to try to get out to the range at some point and do the 50yards.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: michaelthomas on February 24, 2015, 09:23:46 PM
Baxter......good for you. 

The BR targets have a 10 ring of .078", 9 ring of .315".  You can basically shoot right on the middle of the 9 ring line (50/50) and still score a 10.  The 2.5 yards extra will not make too much difference.

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=53530.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=53530.0)

Here is a BR practice target that I made.  The 10 ring should be .078 when printed.....the rest of the rings are not the right size, but you probably won't need the other rings with an Open class gun.  You just have to touch the 10 to score a 10.  So basically.....if you touch it, you got a 10....if you didn't, you probably got a 9.  Scoring is based on a .224" plugged hole.....and your .22 probably doesn't make .22" holes.....maybe .205".  You get the idea.

Mike
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bwalton on February 24, 2015, 09:27:04 PM
Baxter......good for you. 

The BR targets have a 10 ring of .078", 9 ring of .315".  You can basically shoot right on the middle of the 9 ring line (50/50) and still score a 10.  The 2.5 yards extra will not make too much difference.

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=53530.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=53530.0)

Here is a BR practice target that I made.  The 10 ring should be .078 when printed.....the rest of the rings are not the right size, but you probably won't need the other rings with an Open class gun.  You just have to touch the 10 to score a 10.  So basically.....if you touch it, you got a 10....if you didn't, you probably got a 9.  Scoring is based on a .224" plugged hole.....and your .22 probably doesn't make .22" holes.....maybe .205".  You get the idea.

Mike
Im buying a 100 Targets from Joe ;)
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: michaelthomas on February 24, 2015, 09:35:30 PM
You might see if you can pick up a plug from Joe, too.  It will make scoring pretty easy and take out any guesswork.....he can give you some pointers on that, too. 

Mike
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on February 24, 2015, 11:46:07 PM
 ;D ;D ;D Nice shooting but  ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bryan Heimann on February 25, 2015, 12:20:17 AM
I feel like any gun that can consistently yields around 1" at 50 yards from a bench is probably better than I am in the field.  Funny thing about benching a springer though.  Even a good springer on a bench is even better off-hand, even if you are not, lol.  But I understand the bench rest obsession, it's great to hit a tiny target a long way away
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: K.O. on February 25, 2015, 11:21:14 PM
I sent a quick note to the guys at Pyramyd asking about the Sniper and Prometheus  pellets.   sadly this is the current state of affairs...


Hi Kirby,

We're sorry, but we currently do not have any information on the availability of those pellets. Once we get them, we will send an email to our subscribers.



Thank you,

Dan
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Charles Outdoors on February 26, 2015, 01:35:01 AM
A 15 mph crosswind would move it more than that imo 3"-4" by the time its 50 yards its down to about 750 fps

I do think H&N has been paying attention they are showing some new heavies for distance and knock down fpe...

Wonder when they will hit our U.S. shores....

I think in .177  a 1:15 barrel just might work for this one and the JSB Beast if I can get a pumper to chunk them fast enough...

http://www.hn-sport.de/en/products/air-gun-pellets/hunting-and-field-target/piledriver.html (http://www.hn-sport.de/en/products/air-gun-pellets/hunting-and-field-target/piledriver.html)

the have a new name on the scene that implies long range accuracy....

http://www.hn-sport.de/en/products/air-gun-pellets/hunting-and-field-target/sniper-light.html (http://www.hn-sport.de/en/products/air-gun-pellets/hunting-and-field-target/sniper-light.html)

http://www.hn-sport.de/en/products/air-gun-pellets/hunting-and-field-target/sniper-medium.html (http://www.hn-sport.de/en/products/air-gun-pellets/hunting-and-field-target/sniper-medium.html)

http://www.hn-sport.de/en/products/air-gun-pellets/hunting-and-field-target/sniper-magnum.html (http://www.hn-sport.de/en/products/air-gun-pellets/hunting-and-field-target/sniper-magnum.html)

Once the weather straightens out I will test it out. Where I shoot almost always has either a north or south wind at 10-15 mph. I normally shoot from north to south but have plenty of room to shoot east to west. Been to long since I shot in a strong crosswind and it was mostly .177 &.22 cal cphp's  in 15-20 fpe guns.

Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Nomadic Pirate on February 27, 2015, 09:32:48 PM
While reading another post talking about moa. I have to ask the question is there an air rifle that can achieve sub moa at 100 yards. Years ago a dealer told me he had an AirForce PCP that could, and with a muzzel brake could make it back yard friendly.

So because the DA "aka domestic assistance, aka the bride, aka chief procurer, said because you have been working so hard you can get a new gun.

I then said this is my air rifle and this is my gun, this one is for throwing lead and this one is for fun. So I think I have been approved to buy a new air rifle because my gun doesn't need an upgrade.

Budget under $2500. I have air for pcp I own several.  Requirements are sub moa at 100 yards or so, report level comparable to a rws 48 or less.

Thoughts ??





 



Far from being any kind of expert on the matter,
but I've been talking to several airgunners that do long range shooting with deep dedication and at the highest level,
this guys, sort/weight the pellets use the best guns and fine tune them to the purpose, use the most conducive and stable shooting positions, wind flags, only shoot in as close as perfect conditions as possible,.......the answer has been overwelmingly the exact same "yes I can get the occasional sub 1" group at 100 yards, no I can't do it consistently "

So, all I say is this, beware of anybody claiming they can do exactly that all day long, beware of someone claiming gun xxx will do it for you no problem.


This is just from a ton of info I gathered from solid, well known and respected long range dedicated target shooters.

Now go out there and buy a good gun of the well known High end Brands and start shooting,....the fun is in the challenge :)


Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Rimshot on February 28, 2015, 01:07:56 AM
I have been working hard as said in my originally post to buy a AG that could possibly shoot sub MOA at 100  yards, seems I returned to find that my post HAS BEEN HIJACK LMAOROFl... So if its not achievable what the next best thing in a PCP....

Rim
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Kailua on February 28, 2015, 01:25:44 AM
Quote
Using pellets for 100 yard shooting is like playing tennis with a nerf ball.
That's the best quote I have ever seen on this subject.... Is it POSSIBLE, yes?.... but it's 90% the shooter's ability to dope the wind unless it's dead calm.... If you expect to hold MOA by just holding on the bull, you will be sorely diasppoionted.... If you want to attempt it with pellets, why not get the gun that just won the Extreme Bench Rest.... The USFT in .30 cal from Tim @ Mac1 Airguns....

If you want to go bullets, with all the advantages of superior BC, you will need a custom PCP.... I would concentrate on .257 cal, (alternately .224 or .308 cal.) or the "new kid on the block" in airguns, the 7mm.... Set the gun up to shoot tethered on a regulator at 2900-3500 psi, from an 88 CF, 4500 psi SCBA tank, and you will have the ability to shoot 2-5 shots without the tether....

Bob

Bob always has excellent opinions.  You might want to contact Mac1.  JMO
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: William on February 28, 2015, 02:34:46 AM
I have been working hard as said in my originally post to buy a AG that could possibly shoot sub MOA at 100  yards, seems I returned to find that my post HAS BEEN HIJACK LMAOROFl... So if its not achievable what the next best thing in a PCP....

Rim
My choice and depending on usage as to what caliber, in .25 cal. I would say these AG's would be a good choice. The Kalibr Gun Cricket in Rifle or bullpup, Daystate .22 or .25 cal. or the Rapid Air Weapons HM 1000x. Its a hard choice to make but there are Airguns that will perform very close to what you want! These are all repeaters and seem backyard friendly, not to mention very high quality!

William
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: grauhanen on February 28, 2015, 06:44:27 AM
I have been working hard as said in my originally post to buy a AG that could possibly shoot sub MOA at 100  yards, seems I returned to find that my post HAS BEEN HIJACK LMAOROFl... So if its not achievable what the next best thing in a PCP....

Rim
Now that you're back on your feet, so to speak, go through the posts to glean some information.  No one wants to rehash this again. ;)
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: MicErs on August 22, 2015, 11:46:26 PM
Shooting sub MOA at 100 yards with an air rifle is like shooting a ten inch group at a thousand yards with a PB, sometimes it happens.  Nobody is sure why.  Most people call it luck.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on August 23, 2015, 08:32:56 AM
Shooting sub MOA at 100 yards with an air rifle is like shooting a ten inch group at a thousand yards with a PB, sometimes it happens.  Nobody is sure why.  Most people call it luck.
To quote another member the more you practice the luckier you get
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: Bryan Heimann on August 23, 2015, 10:17:48 AM
I guess you shoot what you've got.  If you are barely sub-milk jug at 100 yards, fine.  Still a lot of fun holding over and waiting for the pellet to smack.  Or you could zero at 100, however you have to- might need a drooper and even some shims.  I think it matters for target practice.  The way the target looks though the glass, the way the higher magnification settings magnify your flaws, why not?  Pellets are so much cheaper than bullets...
Title: 41 grain bullets
Post by: mbouchpcp on August 23, 2015, 04:32:16 PM
forget using pellets and consider something like a Sinner from Holland, shooting 41 gr. bullets around 1050 fps.... basically .22LR target loads in an air rifle....
Bob

Has anyone found a source for the projectiles being used by Sinner?  Perhaps someone here is better than me when it comes to Google searches.

Best wishes

The other Mark B
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: robertr on August 23, 2015, 05:14:38 PM
 This will get you started. You will have to translate unless you know Dutch.
http://www.mauricedrummen.nl/webshop/contents/nl/d294.html (http://www.mauricedrummen.nl/webshop/contents/nl/d294.html)
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: K.O. on August 23, 2015, 05:28:10 PM
will be in the future tryin to get 25-40g .224 to shoot well out of a home modded Marlin 883N 22" Barrel with cast and NAA 30g .224 out of a stock .25 wood stocked synrod... got  10# & 15# springs?

I love this modding and then trying to figure a good melt(alloy/hardness)(bet just tin and lead works good) for that pellet-barrel-speed

going to have to figure some Boolit modding jigs

and then try to listen to the barrel if I do not have harmonic probs...

The Marlin Barrels will want maybe the 225-37-fn modified a certain way, say the nose at a certain size, but first how do they drop from the mold...maybe the grooves between the Drive bands can be sanded deeper

 maybe some blue printing  the base and nose for consistency, leave the gas check, shorten it to reduce weight, or go plain base...

then there is thinking about why Marlin chose to leave the start of the rifling sharp... well with a proper size Boolit it will size it without fins...?

because it is a bunch of small lands (20) I pushed thru a .22lr that measured just past .224  and it came out .224, have  .2244 and  .239

lyman style lube sizer. ( at least that is how they are marked)... .239 might work with a Minie treatment...?

well anyways It will be fun to try to work out ways to prototype/tune/blueprint a round for it...

If I was spoiled I might just get a pocket optical comparator to help but seeing as I am not, a magnifying glass will have to work...

oh yea forgot the 22WMR chamber is long and bore size+ a hair or two, just might work well letting it hit with some speed or may have probs there...

lands are .015" deep and 014" wide by spec...

.5-.75 groups in decent conditions at 50 yards seems easily with in reach if all is synergistic... Better, well call on the Mojo 8) ... ;) 1" at 75-100 ::)

bc of a 30g .22 @ <950fps is about .144  I think

Heck just thinking of this stuff am starting to feel like a wildcatter.. ;)


Then I could name the next one the  .212 K.O. Beretta/Hakim fire ball... though its a 25 5/8" .22 lr barrel...

I just hope gun parts corp knows what they are looking for when they said rifling was in good condition since it is .01mm/.00039" (poly?)... If it stayed true to the Berreta rifling of the time...1950s... Pope thinking I like...


well heck it was a 20 dollar gamble... I thought it was a 1950s Anschutz .22 pellet barrel when I bought it

Here is a description of the Beretta .22lr barrel/rifle of the time he does not mention Bore but there is a link in another thread about barrels that leads to that info and it is 5.40mm/.212598...now that with the width between hills and some math will tell land width...I have a headache right now so will leave that for later...pay attention to the chamber.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1957 (http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1957)

so,
I need to come up with a boolit for the design of that barrel... fun... hope the barrel is in good shape...may make a nice ~26" pellet barrel...

fingers crossed for one holers...with my best effort of tuning the rounds to the barrels.. ;)

they got 1" at 50 with just grabin a box for the old Berreta... The challenge and dream of MOA...







Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: mobilehomer on August 23, 2015, 06:48:34 PM
Mark B (the other) check this thread. http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=74915.msg713568#msg713568 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=74915.msg713568#msg713568)
Then try to contact Theobenrules. If anyone can help, he can.
Title: Re: SUB MOA at 100 yards
Post by: vanTeunenbroek on April 23, 2017, 01:16:22 PM
Waking up an old thread..
Recently I was able to buy a theoben rapid from a Dutch 100mtr. Competitor
While I am nowhere near as accurate as the former owner of the rifle I have seen some signed target sheets from competitors with sub m.o.a. Groups at 100mtr. However most shoot their guns tethered to the bottle and indoors with external reg's
I have found the section regarding 100mtr. Airguns and 100mtr. Airgun scopes very informative
Mostly they shoot bigbore's so they can actually see the hits on the scorecard.. Hard to see a 5mm hole at 100 mtr. So no way to know your p.o.i. Without using a separate range scope makes it hard to adjust while shooting.
The thing that scares me the most is the glass these guys use on their rifles... Full on schmidt&bender & nightforce.. Just when thinking I'm getting somewhere there is always something new that I haven't considered before
Saving up for a real sope now...
Does anyone know what the topic starter bought in the end??
Really amazed about all the info available at the g.t.a.