GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Hatsan Airguns => Topic started by: Pappywith4 on January 21, 2015, 09:47:41 PM
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Well I did it again! I took my rifle all the way down agiain and cleaned all the super moly off and used white lithium instead and without cronying it I can tell its fatser by the way its going through 2 ,7/16 osb boards from 20 yds!
I will try to crony it tomorrow and see what it is so I may not have to refill the piston if I am back in the 900s ! Man I am sick of tearing that thing down I want to play! Lol. I will post on this thread tomorrow what it turns out to be!
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I'm very interested in following your progress. My question is what exactly did you do other than change to a different type lube? Was that really needed with the vortex? Did you replace the seal? Could it be dieseling some now? I'm wanting to reseal and smooth mine out some after hunting season is over.
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Hey Pappy,
I know the feeling :P
Sometime in the middle of a tune or near the end, ya just want to get the darn thing done! I know when I first tuned a couple of Hatsan 95's, I couldn't get them to cock ??? I tore those things down at least 10 times before Paul68 gave me a tip and unlocked what was right in front of me. That Quattro trigger was making me feel like a Unick.
My first BAM B50 nearly killed me ...........the constant valve leaks :-\ until Scott/Mike gave me a tip which solved the problem.
One little thing is often the difference between No Problem & Massive Frustration.
The only thing that saved me were some great, GTA help from Paul68, Motorhead, Bob (resterne) and Mike Melick. Nervioustrigger has really helped me too. ;) Thanks....................
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HOT ROD ALL I DID WAS GET RID OF THE STICKY SUPER MOLY AND USE WHITE LITHIUM GREAS IN A TUBE !
I got 2 diesel shots then back to quiet but fast! It is raining bigtime today so no crony numbers but I will at first chance!
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Let me know how that white lithium grease works out as that's what I use in all my air guns. I never used moly, super moly, clear moly, holly moly, golly moly, polly moly, tar, clear tar, heavy tar or secret formulas. LOL
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Let me know how that white lithium grease works out as that's what I use in all my air guns. I never used moly, super moly, clear moly, holly moly, golly moly, polly moly, tar, clear tar, heavy tar or secret formulas. LOL
I sure will let everyone how this lube works out!
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Let me know how that white lithium grease works out as that's what I use in all my air guns. I never used moly, super moly, clear moly, holly moly, golly moly, polly moly, tar, clear tar, heavy tar or secret formulas. LOL
any certain brand?this is one thing thats held me back from tuning.
all the different lubing choices.
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I was told to use super lube with ptfe in it, but after I did this last rebuild but I will give this a fair trial before calling it pass or fail! If its a fail I WILL USE SUPER LUBE / ptfe in it!
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What in the world is Super Lube?
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I was told to use super lube with ptfe in it, but after I did this last rebuild but I will give this a fair trial before calling it pass or fail! If its a fail I WILL USE SUPER LUBE / ptfe in it!
you may find this interesting pappy .
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=32482.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=32482.0)
Not sure where I ever said the SuperLube was a no-no. SuperLube w/PTFE is probably one of the best things that you can use on the compression chamber walls. I used SuperLube w/PTFE all of the years that I tuned guns and would never use anything else on most guns. It is important (as with any other lubing) to remove any excess and that it should be a light film remaining on the wall. One of the best things about using it is that the PTFE has the ability to fill in many of the minute imperfections of the chamber. And... SuperLube w/PTFE is what is recommended in my tune guides on the website as well as in the GTA library.
Personally, I would never use or suggest ATF. It is too thin to be of much lubrication value, especially long term because it wipes away almost immediately and can/will cause extreme detonation just about like any other petroleum product. Years and years ago people used to put it (as well as Slick 50 and some other oils and additives) in the port and into the chamber to give the gun more power. Of course the springs and seals let go and they never knew why. ??? :o :'(
A good grade of 60 or 70% Moly is hard to beat when used in a springer. It really is to the benefit to both you and your gun to pay attention to how and what you do when tuning your gun and what you use to lube your gun. I get e-mails from people that I tuned guns for 8-10 even 12 years ago telling me that their gun is still shooting as good as the day they got it back but wondering if maybe it should be tuned again. My response to them is that …. If it is still shooting well… just keep shooting it.
Very rarely did I ever have a gun returned and the reason was that I treated every gun as if it was my own and I wanted it to be the best it could be. And it was for that reason that reputation became what it was. My intent is not to blow my own horn here but it has been said by many that I am a legend in the world of airguns or in the world of springer airguns. Believe me, the only thing that I did was learn and absorb all that I could from both other pro’s and through experimentation throughout the years and then applied what I learned. And not only did I apply it, I passed it all onto others.
Bt the way...There is a copy of the Tuning Test Data that every customer got with every tune. This data spread sheet is available to anyone who wants it. It is available in the library
Excel FPS/FPE/Trigger Work Sheet - Donated by CDT
as well as on my website in the “Airgun Info” section.
http://www.charliedatuna.com/airgun_docs/Excel%20Chrony%20Data%20Processor.xls (http://www.charliedatuna.com/airgun_docs/Excel%20Chrony%20Data%20Processor.xls)
CDT
The Moly and SuperLube are two completely different lubes that have their own purposes. 8) The SuperLube is used as and for part of the assembly process whereas the Moly is used as the true ongoing lube for the gun over a long period of time. The Moly is a must. ;) SuperLube is great for installing piston and seating the piston seal against the cylinder walls as it is being installed and and does help fill the imperfections with the Teflon, but it has no where near the lubing life and quality of the Moly. :( It is very important that the Moly does not have a hi viscosity or thin carrier.
Shhh ... don't tell anybody >:( but one of my secrets when tuning was to apply the SuperLube on the walls and then install the piston and seal, move it in and out the distance of travel in the compression chamber needed about a dozen times, remove the piston, wipe out the cylinder, Moly lube the the piston as usual part of the procedure and finally install it. But it is important that the cylinder has been deburred well before doing this or you will surely cut the seal.
A point of interest regarding Moly.
Moly comes in many grades with many different carriers. A good Moly does have a bit of a gritty feeling to it but that is the wonder of a good Molly. The less percentage of Moly, the less you can feel it and the more you will just feel the carrier. The Moly is like small microscopic ball bearings and is used in applications where two metal surfaces rub back and forth against each other and is not usually used in applications as a rule on rotating surfaces or things like bearing using cones or cups.
Good Moly is very expensive. The Moly I used for tuning was a 77% Moly used in the Aerospace industry and if I recall it was almost $170.00 for 14 oz a number of years ago. :o :o But.... that was enough to do close to 1000 guns, would hold up and do it's job forever. ;D That said though, JM's Moly is as good as the everyday airgun home tuner would ever need. It is well worth paying a little extra. ;) ;)
CDT
Just things I do ...did ::) ::) Here he goes... bumping his gums again.. ;D ;D ;D
A quickie about lubing the piston and seal.... for what it's worth.
When mounting the seal on the piston, I would use silicone grease although you could use the SuperLube. Just remove the excess. I would apply a thin application on the back of and on the cone part of the seal then install it on the piston. Now grasp the seal and turn it back and forth on the piston several times so that the seal sets firmly and perfectly centered. 8)
You can use either the silicone grease or Moly on the outer edge of the seal when installing the piston in the gun. I would normally use the Moly unless it was not a parachute type seal.
The piston. Whatever you do, do not polish the piston. :o I chuckle to myself every time someone writes about how they polished the piston. Self defeating. In fact, if it has an extremely smooth or polished type surface you may want to rough it up just a little although that can be hard to do on some pistons because they are very hard steel. >:( Much easier to do if you have a lathe. The logic here is that the Moly will adhere to the rougher surface and will hold the Moly better and it will not fly off so readily. ;)
Look at the piston and see if there is any shiny surfaces where the piston may have been rubbing the chamber wall. This may be visible if the gun has some mileage on it. If so, scuff it just a little if you can and apply a light film of Molly here. You will usually see this on the upper opposite side of the cocking slot. 8)
Lubing the piston. The piston itself should have a coat of Molly from the back of the seated seal to about one inch behind it around the piston. Do the same with the rear of the piston. This applied lube is what is going to provide the lube for your seal and provide the fuel for the compression chamber for the life of the tune. :o 8) It should be covered well but not real heavy. Lube the cocking slot of the piston where the cocking foot/shoe rides.
Guess I've made enough noise for one day.
CDT
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d14Jeff I read it last night and I will still give the Lithium a fair trial before passing or failing! I would have gone straight to super Lube with ptfe if I would have known!
thanks everyone! pappywith4
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After a dozen shots i am still only getting 868 fps! I will put some more rounds through it in a couple of days then check it again! If after a 100 shots or so I will re-check it and if it isn't where it should be thatnis 900+ I will use superlube and go from there!
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I doubt lube is the issue. What you need to check are your shot strings for spread and deviation. If you get good even numbers, I'd suspect a spring losing its "ummph". If numbers are inconsistent with a wide spread, I'd suspect a failing or poorly fitting piston seal, or a leaking breech seal.
I've tested numerous types of lube, just to satisfy myself as to the credibility of common recommendations. To date, speed and energy has shown little variation whether I used moly, common greases, or mixes. The real issues when it comes to lube are ability to reduce friction and wear from load and sliding stresses and resistance to detonation. To date, for me moly paste has shown the best all around properties as well as cost effectiveness. The amount of lube anyone should use in an air rifle is so small, it really should have little effect on the speed of the cycle, regardless of how "slippery" it might be. The truth is that you want as little as possible on the cylinder walls. Todays synthetic seals do a lot to provide their own "lubrication". As the seal runs in and wears to the cylinder walls, a little bit of seal material actually embeds itself into the metal. This is what the seal rides on. This effect is improved in some applications by the introduction of graphite or Teflon impregnated seal materials.
In a nutshell, if you are seeing lube have any significant effect on shot cycle speed or energy, you are likely using it wrong.
I'm also not seeing what pellets you are using for your tests. Could be the issue right there. The 125 should be making about 27-30 fpe in 22 depending on the pellet. A typical 14.3 grain at 868FPS is 23.9 fpe, which would be low and indicate an issue IMO. A 16.3 grain at 868 would give 27.2, an 18 grain 30.1, either of which would be in the normal range.
Every rifle I tune I use nothing but moly, occasionally tar on the spring, and some light Dupont Silicone with Telfon for parts like the trigger assembly. I've used others, like thick electricians silicone and superlube, but end up with the tried and true lubes.
As far as the compression chamber goes, I put nothing in there. I will only use a rag on a dowel, apply some moly to it, then burnish the moly into the chamber walls by spinning it at high speed. Then I just run a clean rag through to remove any excess. Some normal light moly application to the piston behind the seal and on the tail end, and its ready to go back in.
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Hey Paul68,
Great stuff on lubes for the tune ;)
As for his power plant, he's got a Vortex gas ram. It's not obvious from the post, but I've talked to pappy before.
He may need to add a few bars of pressure, then be good to go.
I already recommended putting dental floss or pipe tape under the breach seal to raise it up and pappy has added a new AGH piston seal. All this didn't help so Pappy was turning to a lube change, and next was going to add some more pressure to the gas ram.
Boy these guns can be frustrating until you get them down :-\
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I have stayed with crossmans 14.3 to make sure it is the same across the tests! To me the super moly is sticky to the point of drag, that's why I went to lithium! Charliedatuna says superlube also and I will give it a try afterwards! I do feel like it is a low pressure we are dealing with though,but who am I to say?!
889 is all I have personally gotten but the one I bought it from said he was getting a solid 920 average with crossmans! Paul they are within 2 fps of each shot!
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is that with or without the o-ring in front of the piston ?
have you tried it both ways ?
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Jeff it is without! I was loosing about 7 fps with the oring!
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John just my opinion, you have to do a FPS test with better pellets. Depending on the gun being tested, CPHP can vary between 20-60 FPS from my Chrony results. I have the Hatsan 135 in .22 and the H&N FTT 5.55 head pellets give me a constant 996-1006 FPS. The CPHP my be accurate in your gun but the sizes will vary from pellet to pellet giving you crazy FPS results. Even my Crosman 1322 shoots the H&N pellets with a variance of only 8 FPS. Some pellets seal better than others is what I'm trying to say. Let us know how you make out.
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Considering that you are using 14.3 Crosman's, and that your numbers are consistent, the spring is down on power. Lubes wont make even a negligible difference. Chances are that your spring is failing, or is under pressurized. Since a gas spring should not lose pressure at all, I'd consider replacing it. Word of advice, stick to the knowns. Ignore what previous owners say, ignore what others guess, and go with real world results. Your gun should produce 27-30 fpe period. It is not. It is well below the norm. Numbers are consistent and they don't lie. Get a new gas spring.
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First I want to thank everyone so much for your help in tyring to solve this dilema!
I kinda thought the gun had become easier to cock but I have been strong all my life so was thinking I just built up to the task since I have put over 2k rounds down range ! I do have some H&N Barracuda Match which I love but are soooooo costly compared to crossman, I will shoot a dozen over the crony and give results!
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Sorry if my last post was a bit haranguing. Perils of posting while keeping Capt Morgan company. :)
Yeah, just get some solid shot strings and check power and consistency. Your spring has most likely lost some backbone.
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Hey Paul68, ...your prior post was pretty much spot on ;)
Whose Captian Morgan? I missed that one :D
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Here you go everyone!
Hi 836
low 706
Av 770
ES130
S D 56
not looking to consistent!
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Ouch. Seal may not be in too good a shape. Can you post the full shot string?
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#8 706
#7 714
#6 725
#5 730
#4 801
#3 836
#2 828
#1 826
I shot 12 but they didn't register
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If your string numbering is correct, it looks like your spring is failing. The spring is losing pressure each cycle, hence the steady drop in velocity.
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Paul they are correct as far as I know!! LOL
I bought a new Pro Chrono from Amazing, I mean Amazon !!! LOL
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Perils of posting while keeping Capt Morgan company. :)
i enjoy posting while mary jane is visiting 8)