GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => UK Airgun Gate => Topic started by: gard72977 on November 21, 2014, 11:47:55 AM
-
How is it that half the world has 12FPE limit or less and here in the US it next to impossible to get springer tuned to it. No one has a TX200 kit in stock and there is lots of talk about the springs not lasting. The pistons have grown to 26mm. Walther imports a 17FPE version. Walther 12FPE 177( that we cant get) has the wrong Port size.
Has the world forgotten how to build a good 12FPE gun >:(
-
Hi,
by the story of how the UK selected 12fpe, it is a pretty random number.
I guess in the US it not something meaningful. You can make whatever fpe you want.
I shoot indoor and do not really care if it is 12fpe. It matters that it punches the target and has good accuracy.
Others just see it as a limit imposed by law that has no real world meaning.
Why do you want a rifle with exactly 12fpe? Are you in some very specific match/application?
Cheers
Chris
-
Ya they do...it's called Daisy Red Rider ;D
-
Hi,
by the story of how the UK selected 12fpe, it is a pretty random number.
I guess in the US it not something meaningful. You can make whatever fpe you want.
I shoot indoor and do not really care if it is 12fpe. It matters that it punches the target and has good accuracy.
Others just see it as a limit imposed by law that has no real world meaning.
Why do you want a rifle with exactly 12fpe? Are you in some very specific match/application?
Cheers
Chris
Although it may have been just a random number when the selected it the number does translate in to a springer with enough power to hit the targert without a gun that is hold sensitive. It also produces the best velocity for accuracy in a 8gr pellet.
12FPE just makes s lot of sense in a springer.
-
Ok, that seems right if you match rounds that were developed for 12fpe.
So all it is needed in the US is just match the right pellet to different fpe's.
In other words, if you have a US TX200 version (non 12fpe) you should just forget about the 8.3gr and instead find a matching pellet for the wanted accuracy.
Now I understand there might not be any other grains available for the accuracy you are looking for, then we need to catch up with US market specific pellets that fit better our market springers non-12fpe.
I still don't think that because UK has a law enforced de-facto in other countries, we have to comply to it too.
The market is what drives the business. In the US it is the hunting and blowup stuff market cause we have no restrictions.
In the UK is the low fpe field target market and the small game hunting. In other part of the worlds is the Olympic shooting because they are not allowed to shoot anything else.
If we ask manufacturers for pellets more specific to the US market, it is likely that we'll get them. Look at all the hunting heavy rounds that are very common here vs other countries.
So I feel your pain, but I also do not see the need for a 12fpe market in the US. Yet.
Cheers
Chris
-
The limit is the springer platform. With everything that happens before the pellet leaves the barrel some where around 12FPE is about all you can get without a hold sensitivity. Its all about accuracy.
-
Hi,
well I am not sure I agree, but I have to say I don't have much experience with springers.
What I know comes from reading and documentation.
I just watched a very interesting video report by Tom Gaylord. He had completed some pellet/velocity testing with different airguns.
He was mostly looking to debunk the myth that supersonic velocities lead inevitably to less accuracy.
Instead he figured out that that is not true absolutely true, and it mostly all depends on the gun/pellet pair.
In particular, he found out that the recoil harmonic can be tuned, especially in springers, so that the pellet will leave the barrel at a neutral point in the recoil wave.
This greatly improves accuracy when tuned for a specific pellet weight and velocity. He was able to show that supersonic accuracy was actually occurring with several pellets and springers when properly tuned,
So from this I learned that springers just need to be adjusted properly to have a better performance at a specific fpe.
You can have an untuned 12fpe that will not so good and a tuned 20fpe springer that will drive nails.
This is why I cannot agree that 12fpe springers have some magical combination of performance natively.
12 was just a number picked by some lawyer and has not special meaning.
Expensive overseas rifles are properly tuned for 12fpe because that is the maximum they are allowed to get out of it.
But that is it. They are tuned to that limit, not the other way around. They did not pick 12fpe because that is the result of a research showing it would lead to the perfect tuning.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this :)
But that is the beauty of this hobby.
Cheers
Chris
-
My Walther LGV Challenger .22 is a 11lb. sweeeet shootin', easy cockin', one hole accurate machine! ;)
-
Hi,
well I am not sure I agree, but I have to say I don't have much experience with springers.
What I know comes from reading and documentation.
I just watched a very interesting video report by Tom Gaylord. He had completed some pellet/velocity testing with different airguns.
He was mostly looking to debunk the myth that supersonic velocities lead inevitably to less accuracy.
Instead he figured out that that is not true absolutely true, and it mostly all depends on the gun/pellet pair.
In particular, he found out that the recoil harmonic can be tuned, especially in springers, so that the pellet will leave the barrel at a neutral point in the recoil wave.
This greatly improves accuracy when tuned for a specific pellet weight and velocity. He was able to show that supersonic accuracy was actually occurring with several pellets and springers when properly tuned,
So from this I learned that springers just need to be adjusted properly to have a better performance at a specific fpe.
You can have an untuned 12fpe that will not so good and a tuned 20fpe springer that will drive nails.
This is why I cannot agree that 12fpe springers have some magical combination of performance natively.
12 was just a number picked by some lawyer and has not special meaning.
Expensive overseas rifles are properly tuned for 12fpe because that is the maximum they are allowed to get out of it.
But that is it. They are tuned to that limit, not the other way around. They did not pick 12fpe because that is the result of a research showing it would lead to the perfect tuning.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this :)
But that is the beauty of this hobby.
Cheers
Chris
Im looking for competition level accuracy and like you I am following the advice of people doing it. Im not stuck on 12FPE and don't really care what it is If its accurate and not hold sensitive. The limit to this is real close to 12FPE give or take a little. If FT target shooters start winning with 20FPE springer I will join the band wagon. Until then Im chasing the 11-13PFE gun.
In not agreeing to disagree im just saying Tom Gaylord Isn't winning a Field Target match with a supersonic 20FPE springer
-
Hi,
well I am not sure I agree, but I have to say I don't have much experience with springers.
What I know comes from reading and documentation.
I just watched a very interesting video report by Tom Gaylord. He had completed some pellet/velocity testing with different airguns.
He was mostly looking to debunk the myth that supersonic velocities lead inevitably to less accuracy.
Instead he figured out that that is not true absolutely true, and it mostly all depends on the gun/pellet pair.
In particular, he found out that the recoil harmonic can be tuned, especially in springers, so that the pellet will leave the barrel at a neutral point in the recoil wave.
This greatly improves accuracy when tuned for a specific pellet weight and velocity. He was able to show that supersonic accuracy was actually occurring with several pellets and springers when properly tuned,
So from this I learned that springers just need to be adjusted properly to have a better performance at a specific fpe.
You can have an untuned 12fpe that will not so good and a tuned 20fpe springer that will drive nails.
This is why I cannot agree that 12fpe springers have some magical combination of performance natively.
12 was just a number picked by some lawyer and has not special meaning.
Expensive overseas rifles are properly tuned for 12fpe because that is the maximum they are allowed to get out of it.
But that is it. They are tuned to that limit, not the other way around. They did not pick 12fpe because that is the result of a research showing it would lead to the perfect tuning.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this :)
But that is the beauty of this hobby.
Cheers
Chris
Im looking for competition level accuracy and like you I am following the advice of people doing it. Im not stuck on 12FPE and don't really care what it is If its accurate and not hold sensitive. The limit to this is real close to 12FPE give or take a little. If FT target shooters start winning with 20FPE springer I will join the band wagon. Until then Im chasing the 11-13PFE gun.
In not agreeing to disagree im just saying Tom Gaylord Isn't winning a Field Target match with a supersonic 20FPE springer
I am chasing something a little different, but the same thing. I am looking for the rifle that will shoot consistently with a quality .177 pellet at 850-950 FPS, good shot cycle, & a nice trigger. My R11 & R1 fit into that category, and after a tune I hope my FWB sport will as well.
-
Ok,
watch this video and you see a fine FX gun that has a 12FPE on low setting.
It has 3 setting and shoots perfectly "lights out" accurate on high or low.
http://youtu.be/GG5Ksxf25Gw (http://youtu.be/GG5Ksxf25Gw)
I think it's the gun quality not the pellet speed. I realize this is a puffer not a twinger but the principle is simular. Quality equals accuracy.
I only own one non PCP. It is a Hatsan 125 Mod TH with a Nitro Piston.
It takes 53lbs to cock, but it hits pill bottles at 60 yards for me about 9 out of 10.
I am not a great Break Barrel shot. Oh, it is a .25 caliber.
I just lucked out and got a great accurate gun for $269 on last Black Friday at PA.
Be Well,
Gator
-
I give up. I see why the 12FPE is not in US.
-
I have two .177 springers with 25mm pistons: a 1995 TX200 Mk2 and a 1989 Marksman-branded R11. Both are tuned to shoot right at 12.5fpe, and both are extremely accurate. The R11 will put 10 JSB 10.34's inside a 1/2" at 60 yds (on a windless day) and the TX does the same at 50yds with JSB 8.44's. This is fully rested off a bench, and both rifles have been self-tuned to a ridiculous degree and are built with Maccari internals and lubes (the TX currently has a Vortek o-ring seal, but that will be replaced with an Apex as soon as I get the time), custom guides, well-worked triggers, lapped barrels, etc. etc.
I have tried both at 15fpe, and accuracy suffered at all yardages. I've tried them at 10fpe, and accuracy beyond 30yds suffered. As much as my testosterone wanted "more firepower", I've come to terms with the fact that (for these two rifles at least) 12.5fpe is the sweet spot.
I guess I'm a little confused about the perceived difficulty in tuning a rifle to 12fpe. Options include spring spacing, adding or subtracting piston weight, spring coil removal, trying a variety of springs (different length, coil count, wire diameter). Don't be hamstrung by prepared tune kits, get some springs and have fitted guides made for them. If you don't have a lathe (I don't) contact a GTA'er who does and see if they're willing to turn a few guides for you (you'll need to send your springs). I'm pretty sure Mike at Flying Dragon will do it for a small fee, too.
Start with the basics: cylinder hone and/or piston buttoning, full clean and proper lube, deburr/polish everything (especially spring ends), well-fitted guides, tuned trigger. Once you've established a consistant platform for a baseline, start tweaking the power plant and trust your chrony. Be prepared for changes in most accurate pellets as fpe changes.
It takes time and patience, but it's extremely enjoyable and satisfying. I'm by no means an expert at this (or anything, really, except spending too much time on hobbies ;D). There are many here who actually ARE experts (Scott/Motorhead comes to mind) and probably have much better ways to do things than my cobbled basement-shop efforts. I have had good luck getting answers to questions that I email to various folks...the GTA community is awash with generous and highly experienced airgunners.
-
I just got the gun back from motorhead and there were no 12fpe springs or kits available right now for the TX. Everyone is out. Im gong to try it at the 14fpe level for a while. I may put a 12fpe kit in it at some time. I looking at a LGU and just putting a UK spring in it. I need a dedicated Silhouette gun and a dedicated Field Target gun any way. Scopes are different and a little extra FPE in silhouette is helpful.
-
I had a 12 fpe Vortek in my tx it was nice, I changed it out for the SHO kit. I like the SHO kit just as much. Still easy to cock, still has a very nice quiet shot cycle.
Some other countries have higher power guns available they just have to get a permit. Just like we have to get approved to buy a powder burner.
Try topgun-airguns, they have some very nice offerings.
Duck
-
The QX4600 spring from JM might be just the ticket, and they appear to be in stock.
-
Hi,
well I am not sure I agree, but I have to say I don't have much experience with springers.
What I know comes from reading and documentation.
I just watched a very interesting video report by Tom Gaylord. He had completed some pellet/velocity testing with different airguns.
He was mostly looking to debunk the myth that supersonic velocities lead inevitably to less accuracy.
Instead he figured out that that is not true absolutely true, and it mostly all depends on the gun/pellet pair.
In particular, he found out that the recoil harmonic can be tuned, especially in springers, so that the pellet will leave the barrel at a neutral point in the recoil wave.
This greatly improves accuracy when tuned for a specific pellet weight and velocity. He was able to show that supersonic accuracy was actually occurring with several pellets and springers when properly tuned,
So from this I learned that springers just need to be adjusted properly to have a better performance at a specific fpe.
You can have an untuned 12fpe that will not so good and a tuned 20fpe springer that will drive nails.
This is why I cannot agree that 12fpe springers have some magical combination of performance natively.
12 was just a number picked by some lawyer and has not special meaning.
Expensive overseas rifles are properly tuned for 12fpe because that is the maximum they are allowed to get out of it.
But that is it. They are tuned to that limit, not the other way around. They did not pick 12fpe because that is the result of a research showing it would lead to the perfect tuning.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this :)
But that is the beauty of this hobby.
Cheers
Chris
Im looking for competition level accuracy and like you I am following the advice of people doing it. Im not stuck on 12FPE and don't really care what it is If its accurate and not hold sensitive. The limit to this is real close to 12FPE give or take a little. If FT target shooters start winning with 20FPE springer I will join the band wagon. Until then Im chasing the 11-13PFE gun.
In not agreeing to disagree im just saying Tom Gaylord Isn't winning a Field Target match with a supersonic 20FPE springer
I give up. I see why the 12FPE is not in US.
Perhaps Tom Gaylord is on to something with the "recoil harmonics" or whatever it is. And perhaps someone who figures out how to "tune" for it will be able to lead the charge in building more powerful springers that are even more accurate, all the while overcoming trans sonic turbulence which somehow would be made to vanish with such modifications -- the laws of physics notwithstanding.
But until that happy day, airgunners using spring piston rifles (not those using FX PCP's) will do well to keep in mind that one of the key factors relating to accuracy is how recoil is handled by the rifle and shooter. It's axiomatic to say that a gun with less recoil will be less challenging to shoot accurately. That is why FT shooters prefer 12 fpe rifles. Ten meter air rifle shooters also have always sought guns with less recoil, not more.
-
Esp. with the TX, FT shooter prefer "smooth" I know a lot of people just over 12fpe - 13-14.5 max(it seems)- who do very well. The shooter I know who has used a TX more than anyone else say's "you tune a TX the way it wants to be tuned, not to what you want" , and he has had many many TX's of all types. A good friend who one piston class a couple of years ago would have loved to shoot WFTF-"12fpe"- but his rifle was best at 13.2fpe . Now anyone wanting "20fpe" out of a TX, get a different rifle.
John
That is the best news I have had in a long time. Kind of goes along with what Motorhead said. We expected the Tx to come down a little more but it didn't. Im going to shoot is like it is and see what happens. You are a wise man John (mainly because you told me what I wanted to hear)
This gun will end up being my silhouette gun and a little extra power helps buck the wind since silhouette is usually shot in the middle of a open shooting range.
-
Esp. with the TX, FT shooter prefer "smooth" I know a lot of people just over 12fpe - 13-14.5 max(it seems)- who do very well. The shooter I know who has used a TX more than anyone else say's "you tune a TX the way it wants to be tuned, not to what you want" , and he has had many many TX's of all types. A good friend who one piston class a couple of years ago would have loved to shoot WFTF-"12fpe"- but his rifle was best at 13.2fpe . Now anyone wanting "20fpe" out of a TX, get a different rifle.
John
I am a big fan of "low" powered springers. All of mine except the R1 are well below 12fpe, and even the R1 is tuned down to about 13.5fpe.
Pushing power upwards has always diminished accuracy and made the guns less pleasant to shoot.
IMHO the need for power in the US market is vastly exaggerated. Nothing wrong with power, but it is a want, not a need.
R
-
Good post, John. I know that after spending some time on the AA Owner's Forum it became apparent that the general consensus among the UK crowd is that AA messed up a perfect design when they upped the power level for the US import models.
There's even a number of people who think the piston should have remained 25mm instead of enlarging it to 26mm.
Personally, I feel that as long as the cylinder is honed true and the rifle has a decent tune done to it, 26mm vs 25mm shouldn't matter much at all. But I agree with John...if you're looking for anything above 17 or so fpe you need to look elsewhere.
-
How is it that half the world has 12FPE limit or less and here in the US it next to impossible to get springer tuned to it. No one has a TX200 kit in stock and there is lots of talk about the springs not lasting. The pistons have grown to 26mm. Walther imports a 17FPE version. Walther 12FPE 177( that we cant get) has the wrong Port size.
Has the world forgotten how to build a good 12FPE gun >:(
Because the power limit in the UK was decided by the government as a power point between legal to use without a special firearm permit and needing a firearm permit. In the united states airguns weren't considered firearms (except when I lived in NJ decades ago) and owning one needed no permits. In the US field target shooting a 20 fpe limit is imposed only to make target maintenance manageable and I'm betting that is this power level were allowed in the UK without a permit, there would be a lot more shooters using airguns of more than 12fpe.
Anywhoo....in US field target shooting the WFTF class (less than 12fpe) is one of the fastest growing divisions and I've even reduced the power output of my R9 over the years from 14.5fpe to about 12.5fpe simply because the lower power level works very well and my recoiling piston gun is less hold sensitive at that power level!
Some 12fpe plinking at a 25 yard target with my .177 R9 and a "fly splat".......
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/3102014/1415364734_1211687362_FlySplat.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=61723)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
I really don't understand the comment "12FPE limit or less and here in the US it next to impossible to get springer tuned to it" unless you're thinking of "<12fpe out of the box". Getting <12fpe is simply a matter of replacing the spring with an appropriate substitute.