GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Vintage Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: zielvier on September 20, 2014, 11:29:09 AM
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Hi my friends,
just want to show you some pictures of my latest treasure. More informations you find at the www. I can not shoot the lady at the present time in lack of at suitable adapter-piece to fill the air-reservoir. I will post better pictures later.....
Best regards, Jochen
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=91290)
http://sta.sh/011vuopzgdj3 (http://sta.sh/011vuopzgdj3)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=91292)
http://sta.sh/04q89iffdd0 (http://sta.sh/04q89iffdd0)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=91294)
http://sta.sh/0emqlawjxao (http://sta.sh/0emqlawjxao)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=91296)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=91298)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=91300)
http://sta.sh/0262b32u4lph (http://sta.sh/0262b32u4lph)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=91302)
http://sta.sh/02c2av6d8epv (http://sta.sh/02c2av6d8epv)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=91304)
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Nice pictures.
I hope you get.a chance to shoot it.
Dave
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What an AWESOME piece of Air Gunning history !!
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Beautiful. I enjoyed the pix and look forward to hearing how your Giffard shoots.
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That is a masterpiece of craftsmanship. Wow. 8)
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That is an amazing piece of history!! Could you imagine making an updated version? That would be pretty sweet!
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Nice 8)
That's a beautiful piece of history. I'm looking coward to hearing about how it shoots.
Bryan
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Very cool.
Richard
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WOW!!! That certainly is a "treasure". Even the screws were not all galled up. Hope you either find the piece you need or a qualified machinist helps you recreate the piece. You do not say what caliber it is. You are a lucky man. Lee
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Had to look again, saw it's a .177. Is the barrel rifled, I'd suspect it is with the quality of the rest of the gun. It's a shame people don't take pride in what they do anymore the way the person did who made that Giffard. You are a very lucky man!! Lee
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I will add more pictures to show the lady stripped. And: yes, the barrel is rifled. The stock-plate at the end is bakelite, not damaged and itself a unique piece!
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=91382)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=91384)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=91386)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=91388)
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Jochim
i notice your serial # 6088 is it the same on all parts ?
i have a written article about the 4.5 Giffard saying it does not shoot .177 balls too well
see attachment
i also have shot one of my 6mm Giffards with C02 and they are fun to shoot and shoot nicely
but iron sights are not old eyes friendly in my case ;D
there was a chap in France making HP air cylinders for Giffards
don't remember his name, but have attached an image of his cylinder with fill attachment
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Thanks, Dick! I know about the difficulties ref. the pellets. I am in contact with a german guy who owns two! of them! He will "teach me" in feeding the lady ;-)
Does Quackenbush still sell adaptor-units? I read in the internet about his adaptor-pieces to fill (?) the original cylinder.
So : I would like to shoot the rifle in complete original version....pure vintage ;-) OLD MAN-OLD RIFLE
The serial-number is on all parts (even on the stock!) except on the CO2-zylinder. Is it 8809 or 6088?
Lets stay in contact for further informations!
best regards, Jochen
PS: The Giffard is the last rifle, which is mentioned by Arne Hoff in his book.
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Good Lord the quality is astounding!!!!!!!! That rifle is just flat-out beautiful!!! Could you PM me w/how much you paid? I would love to someday make a modernized version!!
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Beautiful - really B E A U T I F U L !
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hi, here the picture from the interior of the cartridge. the seal is broken, so i got to get me a replacement........
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=94830)
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WOW! What a beautiful air rifle, the details are fantastic! Thank you for sharing the pictures.
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;D That rifle is a rare gem it looks like it came out of a museum and the detail is amazing, I'm sure that in its day was still an expensive AG
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As I opend the cartdridge, i smelled the perfume of vintage machine-oil, metal and I imagined, which craftsman or owner was the last, to lay a hand on the screws.This is much more impressive to me than any Bordeaux-wine from 1920.....look at the untouched brass-valve
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=94838)
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This is just flat-out impressive!!! Thanks for this picture show of this gem of a rifle!
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Jochen
did you contact Dennis to see if he still sells the adaptors ?
shooting them as original is the most fun
edited to correct serial #'s to 967 and 4398
images below show different serial #'s for the CO2 tubes
Thanks, Dick! I know about the difficulties ref. the pellets. I am in contact with a german guy who owns two! of them! He will "teach me" in feeding the lady ;-)
Does Quackenbush still sell adaptor-units? I read in the internet about his adaptor-pieces to fill (?) the original cylinder.
So : I would like to shoot the rifle in complete original version....pure vintage ;-) OLD MAN-OLD RIFLE
The serial-number is on all parts (even on the stock!) except on the CO2-zylinder. Is it 8809 or 6088?
Lets stay in contact for further informations!
best regards, Jochen
PS: The Giffard is the last rifle, which is mentioned by Arne Hoff in his book.
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Hi John, I guess, the cartdridge-numbers dont say anything and never accorded to the serial-number of the rifle. Here my list of serial-numbers I found in www and auction-pictures:
Gewehr = gun * Schrot = shot- or dart (?) / ball-gun ( not rifled) * Pistole = pistol * Gewehr ?? = uncertain caliber
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=94928)
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Hi, here the location of the six serial-numbers. i checked this on a second rifle in 8 mm (.295 rifled)
I have seen on the .295-rifle : as they did not have a "3"-digit for the stock, they stamped it with a "5" bottom-up ;-)
IMHO: there are two different ingravings/stamps in front of the loading-tap: balloon or cannons and arrow.
Probably the balloon is stamped on small calibers and the cannons on the bigger ones....
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=95156)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=95158)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=95160)
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Sielvier
i have never taken mine apart and did not notice the other locations
one is # 967 and other is 4398 both with balloons on top
i will also correct the post above
thank you
Dick
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Jochen,
You have been most diligent to dig up all these! Here is info to fill in some empty spots on your number list:
77 - pistol, 4.5 mm, with replacement bolt block
342 - rifle, 8mm
2722 - rifle, 4.5 mm
4605 - rifle, 8 mm
4737 - rifle, 4.5 mm
5555 - rifle, 6 mm
5906 - rifle, 4.5 mm
and one you could add:
3931 - rifle, 4.5 mm
Hope this is useful,
Don R.
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(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=95529)
(the underlined numbers are serial-numbers of the original reservoir)
Maybe more owenrs can send me datas including the type of engraving on top (balloon or cannon).
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Today i got he seal ring for the reservoir. filled with 60(?) bar CO2 for beverages:
THE LADY IS SHOOTING ABSOLUTELY STUNNING!!!!!!!!!!
Here the picture from the 8 mm BBs ( the white one is plastic) and a shot with a lead-pellet throught constuction chipboard 10 mm (0,4 ") .
Happy, gunman Jochen
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=95581)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=95583)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=95585)
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Good going! These beauties are great shooters and deserve to be put to use.
Don R.
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hi, here the results of my 1st shooting with the 8mm version (YES, I have two of them...) and plastic-bb´s indoor at 10 meters bench-rest.
I can not explain the result. maybe i must load the pellets muzzle-upwards and keep this procedure. I started with putting some vaseline on the pellets: not good ;-)
Best regards, Jochen
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=96284)
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Really interesting. Magnificent for a rifle that old. How did they fill it with air back then?
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The reservoir can be easily filled with liquid CO2. You can see the hand-made adaptor-piece (brass). Next time i will measure the weight before and after filling.
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=96289)
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Very nice.
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The Giffard shoots .177 pellets and round balls? What grain pellet does it shoot best and have you chronied the rifle?
Were pellets available when the Giffard was built and being sold in the late 1800's?
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Sam, I am still in the experimental-stage ;)
What I can tell is:
I shoot:
8 mm lead BB with 3 gramms weight, 8 mm plastic BB with 0,3 g weight
4,65 mm lead BB with av. 0,3 gramms
4,60 mm lead BB (not tested)
Chrony test will follow.
Shot shells were offered.
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=96828)
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UPDATE
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=96925)
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Hi, I was lucky to find some original and rare accessories:
an original wooden accessories case with booklet (19 pages) , an original catalogue "MANUFRANCE" ( 1894, 210 pages) and two reservoirs. I attach pictures in higher resolution. Maybe you are interested!
Jochen
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=100020)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=100022)
complete set:
http://sta.sh/0sn1go3tb2y (http://sta.sh/0sn1go3tb2y)
booklet front page
http://sta.sh/01mam8pvthzc (http://sta.sh/01mam8pvthzc)
booklet rear page
http://sta.sh/01jouhcocvxi (http://sta.sh/01jouhcocvxi)
catalogue MANUFRANCE front page
http://sta.sh/025cff9ve4fs (http://sta.sh/025cff9ve4fs)
view inside the "Manufacture"
http://sta.sh/01h2dnhjhjw3 (http://sta.sh/01h2dnhjhjw3)
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;D Very nice treasure you have found
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Good find. The accessories and manual make it all even more valuable as a complete set. The thought that went into every little detail on these air guns is incredible.
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THANK YOU Jochen
you found a treasure
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WOW! The box itself look fantastic.
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(Oscar Wilde) Some day I travel to France and ask the guy, if he wants to sell it to ME ;-)
I know him - have to wait now and be patient...
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=100059)
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views of the detachable barrel:
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=100164)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=100166)
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8) Zielvier, Where did you find that treasure?
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Don, (I think you mean the case; the pistol is not mine...) you still can find these things on flea-markets or antique-markets in the south-east region of France or at Belgium.
The flair and the thrill at these markets is amazing! There is no other region in Europe, were you still can find rarities - as far as I know.
In the northern countries (in particular Germany), all the used and "old" things were thrown away, when the "Wirtschaftswunder" appeared: the people had enough money to buy new things! Not in e.g. France or Italy or even the U.K. I will travel there on 1st of May: just to visit "vide-geniers" or "marche aux puces": get up early, have enought bills in your pocket and a torch ;-) My advantage is, that I speak french quite fluid.....
The case i found by contact to a french guy.
Best regards, Jochen
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I would like to show some pictures out of the original catalogue "Manufacture Francaise des Armes et Cycles" from 1894. ( 84.174.5.107)
Jochen
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=112228)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=112230)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=112232)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=112234)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=112236)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=112238)
a few in higher resolution:
cover:
http://sta.sh/01v76xtceg2n (http://sta.sh/01v76xtceg2n)
mise au bronze / blueing (?)
http://sta.sh/02e3yy8gtzn (http://sta.sh/02e3yy8gtzn)
rifle-range:
http://sta.sh/0myvhb0hkaa (http://sta.sh/0myvhb0hkaa)
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voilà:
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=129630)
http://sta.sh/0uax9cmqt12 (http://sta.sh/0uax9cmqt12)
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;D Every time you post there is more treasure to look at please do not stop
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That is an amazing bit of workmanship, nice job on the pictures as well. Really beautiful stuff all that steel and wood.
Dave
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Hi @ all,
today I would like to show another part of Mr. Giffards brilliant design: the locking of the loading-bolt. The pistol is a very early one: serial number 114!
In all pictures I marked the following parts:
Black: loading-port
White: small screw to lock the loading-bolt (not on the pictures)
Green: locking-mechanism
Blue: port / inlet for the gas when shooting
Dismanteling: unscrew the small screw, cock the trigger and turn the loading-port unit counterclockwise. The smaller part of the “half washer" will now allow to pull the complete unit out of the system. As you see I did not remove the oil from the loading-port unit.
Maybe you can correct the right translation.
pictures of the pistol ( can be enlarged):
http://sta.sh/0zwrn4d248n (http://sta.sh/0zwrn4d248n)
http://sta.sh/0upbzm7sr79 (http://sta.sh/0upbzm7sr79)
http://sta.sh/0kmvtk9pe4b (http://sta.sh/0kmvtk9pe4b)
http://sta.sh/0hg8996iu4b (http://sta.sh/0hg8996iu4b)
pictures of the described mechanism
http://sta.sh/01r79k885rcb (http://sta.sh/01r79k885rcb)
http://sta.sh/06qq9hvw5fd (http://sta.sh/06qq9hvw5fd)
http://sta.sh/01g9cnganbp0 (http://sta.sh/01g9cnganbp0)
http://sta.sh/019ux4xe5hsx (http://sta.sh/019ux4xe5hsx)
ATB, Jochen
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Absolutely beautiful craftsmanship on this gun and the accessories! What a find you have made, she deserves to be used as intended and well cared for. Thanks for the great pictures!
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8) I love the pictures and write up on that treasure amazing and beautiful
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Hi, the pictures show the front- and back side of a single screw through the wooden grip.
The diameter is 7,5 mm (1/3 inch). A remarkable craftmanship and perfektionism at the end of the 19th century on an air-pistol!
http://sta.sh/01ys8epi5qpa (http://sta.sh/01ys8epi5qpa)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=131557)
http://sta.sh/01x3iqgn6aco (http://sta.sh/01x3iqgn6aco)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=131559)
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Here the picture of a Giffard pistol dismantled (w.o. barrel) and the location of the serial numbers. The white arrow indicates the s.n. of the wooden grips. AFAIK they were not produced in France so the s.n. is not matching.
notice: one location of s.n. is not on the shown picture but on the linked one. I can not delete the shown one.
large picture:
http://sta.sh/01p9tt0jny8w (http://sta.sh/01p9tt0jny8w)
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Well, I would like to show some pictures after restoring the reservoir and the rifle. The barrel had to be cleaned inside and the washer of the reservoir was replaced. You can see the filling (reservoir out of the deep-freezer, -18°C). The content is 6 gramms liquid CO2 from a "beer"-carbondioxide-tank (60 bar) . The first shots on a steel plate and the type of "Rundkugel" can be seen here. There is still a lack of power-she can hit harder ;).
ATB Jochen
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=132063)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=132065)
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Tuning a Giffard rifle:
As the main spring gets weak during the years (of use), you can easily rise her tension by underlaying a piece of metal. In this case it is a piece of copper plate (1,2 mm , white arrow) . You just need to remove a single screw (blue arrow). Be careful, not to underlay to much – the spring can be damaged.
I did this with a good friend of mine and we tested to get the maximum power. First you need to find the point, where the smallest amount of CO2 will be emitted. The the maximum point will be turning the regulating scew about two turns to “maximum” (clockwise / to the front).
Please notice, that the accelerated bolt is not “pressed” against the valve but he is accelerated to “fly” a short distance and hit the valve inside the reservoir. When it has opened for a short time, it will be closed by the pressure of the CO2 on the other side and the bolt will be located in his original position.
The regulating screw is only regulating the kinetic power of the bolt by regulating the distance between “ hammer “ ( red arrow) and regulating screw. So the bolt gets accelerated more or less.
I recommend working with a 2013 french organic Chardonnay as seen on the picture ;D
ATB Jochen
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=132367)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=132369)
http://sta.sh/0qj84gzmtnk (http://sta.sh/0qj84gzmtnk)
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Hi,
as I "collect" all Giffard serial-numbers I can find in www., I assume, that the first numbers (up to 1000 ?) are given to the pistol-variants.
Maybe they produced rifles at the same time or even before the pistols, but I know -until today- no serial-number below 1000 given to a rifle. The lowest rifle is marked 11**.
These are the serial-numbers of pistols I know: 27,61,77,114,132,342,359,636,707,801, 836,890.
The "61" is at the moment offered in France:
http://www.naturabuy.fr/PISTOLET-RAYE-P-GIFFARD-6-mm-TRES-RARE-item-2873617.html (http://www.naturabuy.fr/PISTOLET-RAYE-P-GIFFARD-6-mm-TRES-RARE-item-2873617.html)
I am not the seller, I don´t know him, I don´t want to buy . This rare pistol seems to be all original and IMHO in a very good condition! It is not a 6mm-version, it is .177. The serial-numbers are matching (he writes).
And "naturabay.fr" is a nice "playground" for all gun-enthusiasts ;-)
ATB Jochen
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I took yesterday:
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=156697)
http://sta.sh/025c1l8ry6yk (http://sta.sh/025c1l8ry6yk)
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Great photo of a superb pistol.
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Truly a great piece of history you have , hope to see it shooting for you.
Keep us upto date on its progress
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Back from France, I would like to show you some treasures. Those items IMHO are even more rare than a Giffard Rifle. Especially those two shot-shells I could find:
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=159488)
bigger pictures:
http://sta.sh/2bdiayj9jie?edit=1 (http://sta.sh/2bdiayj9jie?edit=1)
The front of these shells is probably closed with wax. The weigth is av. 3.5 gramms. I have never seen any information in www. about these shells for a 9 mm rifle. Exept one picture in a book.
Also I found two boxes: one wooden case for the "cartouche" and ammunition, and an original box which came with the rifle at that time.
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=159482)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=159484;image)
(http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=75256.0;attach=159486;image)
http://sta.sh/2cm521yrmab?edit=1 (http://sta.sh/2cm521yrmab?edit=1)
Enjoy the pictures ;-)
Jochen
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What a beautiful old piece.
Sincerely
Bump