GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Crosman Airguns => Topic started by: Doubletough on January 23, 2011, 11:58:32 AM
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Lloyd Sikes is the engineer of the Rogue™ .357's eValve:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgho2W7i5ak#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgho2W7i5ak#ws)
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in my book he is now the king of air gun valvues in my book .please adapt this to .22 a.g. for 1000 f.p.s. with heavy weight pellets for like 50 or so shots.
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Heathen,
Ouch, tough crowd. Next time I will not so good it in. I guess the camera really IS unforgiving, LOL.
If your question is serious, though, this technology is easily adaptable across ALL calibers and works across a surprisingly broad range of pressures. Being able to basically dial the power up and down at will, and use all of the air efficiently was the goal, and we are there.
If the sales go well on the .357, I am almost sure other calibers will follow.
Lloyd-ss
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I stay pretty quiet here, but you can look however you want (I have a little gut, too), Lloyd--it's what you've got between your ears that promises great things for us airgunners. Great work on that project. I can't wait until the technology trickles down as it inevitably does. So, from me, a most humble thank you....
--Jaybird
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Welcome Lloyd! Great to have you with us! How about longevity on those electronics? any projections?
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dk,
Good question, and I am expecting good longevity. My day job is an engineer for a marine navigation equipment manufacturer so I have a decent idea of what it takes to get a good MTBF in a harsh environment. The microprocessor is a proven commercial unit and the circuitry is straightforward. Nothing used is failure prone or too shock or vibe sensitive. The design is modular enough so that if needed, certain components could be replaced. In other words, its repairable. One thing I really like, is that Crosman is using a local house to manufacture the electronics. That house has taken a vested interest in the total success of the project. They are just as excited about it as Crosman is and Crosman is dealing with a house down the street, so to speak, instead of someone on the other side of the globe who would consider the quantities hardly worth the effort. This gun is about as 100% US made as you can get these days. That means something to me. I hope that answers your question.
Lloyd
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Good work on that gun, Lloyd. While it is not something I need (I do want one anyway), I appreciate its technology and what that will mean in other applications. I'm also glad to see you here interacting with the end users...
Keep doing what your doing!
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in my book he is now the king of air gun valvues in my book .please adapt this to .22 a.g. for 1000 f.p.s. with heavy weight pellets for like 50 or so shots.
Thats completley out of context on this thread, We do not judge a person by his looks, color or name Thanks David
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GREAT work Lloyd and proud you've joined us here. The electronics incorporated into airgunning is a GIANT leap forward for the sport. THANK YOU very much.
Happy Shooting!!!!
Dave
8)
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Gents,
Thanks for the warm welcome. The anonymity of the web lets us occasionally say things we never would face to face. One of those rights vs responsibility issues we also have to think about as gun owners and users. 'Nuf said. Definitely no big deal.
I am mostly a lurker and have participated in my "home blog", on the PA site for years, but feel compelled to come out a bit more now.
People are bringing up a lot of good and controversial questions that are certainly not falling on deaf ears, but instead have been proactively in Crosman's mind since day one.
Lloyd
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A Big Welcome Aboard Lloyd. We try our best to keep the GTA a family oriented set of forums so both mothers, dads and kids can enjoy this awsome sport/hobby of air gunning. We try to include good safety values when using air guns. Our moderators are well seasoned air gunners and do a great job of keeping the GTA clean and safe.
Please come again and share your knowledge with all of us. We are gluttins for any information...:)
Most of us do appreciate and love what Crosman has done to and for the air gun industry with all of the new technologies.
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Thank you for the reply Lloyd! I forgot to say congrats on the new eValve!
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welcome abord Lloyd! this is all very intreting stuff in the video. this gun looks light years ahead of anything out there. cheers bart
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So glad to see a true engineering pioneer on here, Lloyd!
You're welcome here any time you want.
I'm particularly happy to hear that Crosman is having the electronics made over here, something extremely rare for electronics of any sort.
We also were all hoping this quantum leap in technology would eventually filter down to the lighter calibers, and your comment about that is welcome news.
Crosman is lucky they contacted you, and they should be honored that their next big thing comes courtesy of a great American innovator and entrepreneur.
Cheers
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Awesome innovation. I also would like to see it in a smaller bore. I think this would work out great in a .22.
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Thanks all. I will listen for sure, and offer what I can.
Crosman has been top notch during all of this. Tom Gaylord (PA blog) is the man who orchestrated the meeting with Crosman and offered the vision. He saw the potential more than I did. Without Tom, this would still be in my workshop. And anyone who works in manufacturing and knows what it takes to bring a totally new product from the R&D skunk works, through prototypes, to a manufacturable design, and then to the market, knows the huge commitment Crosman has made.
There's a whole lot to the story, and I imagine it will come out over time.
Lloyd
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I'd like to see this technology used in .22, .25, .45, and .50 caliber rifles, as well as a .410 and/or 28 gauge air shotgun.
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Welcome aboard lloyd very good idea on the valve, I was thinking the other day if only you could regulate the valve to make the natural "curve" on the shot count vs. velocity flatter, it would make the gun more consistent.
Your Evalve is pretty much it! nice work
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Jaymo,
I think you missed .308, LOL.
My guess is that any second caliber will be market driven.
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Thanks lloyd-ss you kinds cleared my thinking on the electronics in this rifle. I had concerns as to how well they would be able to take hunting abuses etc. Congrats to ya on one very interesting rifle.
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Oops, you're right. A .308 or .32 caliber would be nice, too. I compliment you on your innovation.
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Special order for Jaymo: 77 gn ACP bullet in a 32-20 WCF barrel .
So many choices. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth but ya gotta start somewhere and make some of the people happy!
Because of sectional density, area, barrel length vs dia, sound, real knock down power, market analysis, bullet selection, and in particular, air efficiency compared to the fpe delivered, the .357 is a solid choice and good compromise for the introduction. But hey, everything in life is a compromise. Seriously, the numbers will not disappoint.
Lloyd
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Mr. Sikes,
Thank you for your contributions. I'm know it is great to see something that you created succeed. Keep it up.
R35
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Thank you. I have to pinch myself sometimes to make sure its all real.
I hope the names of he Crosman individuals involved, and its a bunch, come out eventually. The chief designer for the project in particular, has given as much of his heart and soul to this as I have.
Lloyd
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Most of you may have already seen these, but here are a couple of videos from Media day at the shot show out at one of the local shooting ranges that show the Benjamin Rogue .357 in action. I wasn't there that day but it looks like folks were having some great fun.
Lloyd
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy7fZtRh84Q#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy7fZtRh84Q#ws)
http://www.crosman.com/blogs/croswords/?p=1436 (http://www.crosman.com/blogs/croswords/?p=1436)
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Can't believe I have been missing this thread! Great stuff, and an honor to have Lloyd with us here.
A question I have been dying to ask... will the circuit board be conformal coated, or has thought been given to this?
We make electronics for harsh outdoor environments, and conformal coating can make a big difference in high humidity- also in going from a warm truck into a cold winter morning. Humidity and condensation can corrode and short, and the coating insulates the circuitry.
There are various types, and sometimes care must be taken to mask off certain sensors so they will still function.
I have been pumped about the Rogue since the Show and wish you every success with it. I am eager to see the price announcement, and hope there is one in my future!
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Daveshoot,
Thanks for the welcome. I am with you 100% on the conformal coating. The transition from proto electonics to current SMT design is being handled by a local (to Crosman) respected board house, and durability and MTBF were big topics. I don't know final details but am almost positive conformal coating will be done on the production units.
Lloyd
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Thanks for taking the time to answer. It's reassuring to hear they are giving attention to those details. It's also nice to hear the SMT will be USA made! You are probably aware that there are some vocal and even rude doubters out there. This is great news!
I could pester you with a hundred questions and I gotta say, it takes a brave manufacturer to venture into these forums (as you've already experienced).
But... do you think the board will be flash programmable/updateable?
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Thanks for taking the time to answer. It's reassuring to hear they are giving attention to those details. It's also nice to hear the SMT will be USA made! You are probably aware that there are some vocal and even rude doubters out there. This is great news!
I could pester you with a hundred questions and I gotta say, it takes a brave manufacturer to venture into these forums (as you've already experienced).
But... do you think the board will be flash programmable/updateable?
The Big Exception Dave is that we do not condone those that insult or bash anyone on the GTA..:) They will be delt with by our great staff and members..:)
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Lloyd, thank you for bringing this technology to airgunning and thank you also for joining us here on the GTA. What a benefit for each of us to have access to your expertise and to hear from your perspective the directions our hobby is taking.
Joe
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I had a continued discussion with Lloyd offline and boy, I am pretty excited about his answers. They are the "right stuff" from an electronics point of view. This guy is both a shooter and a thinker and it's not only an honor to have him posting on GTA, it's a rare privilege to have someone in engineering walk up to you with a better idea, and have management get behind it.
Kudos to Lloyd for thinking and making the thousand bulbs that didn't work (Edison), and Crosman for recognizing and adopting. This is a technology that can migrate to other platforms, and will benefit us all in the long run. I think the airgun world of 2021 will be very different, and people may look back at this as the moment that started it all.
And for the record I think there will still be spring guns with no electronics at all and they will be fine. But this innovation really opens up some doors for (some of) us.
Crosman reads the forums and listens. You don't have to look a lot further to see this. They see a bigger picture (they are a business) than we might in the back yard, but they are here and listening and responding. Who else is?
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Guys, Thanks so much, but I have to say that I am learning an awful lot listening to all of you. Even though I'm 60, I think most of you have a lot more airgun experience than I do.
I think the Benjamin Rogue, and the technology it is built around, is kind of a love it or hate it thing. The technology definitely pushes some people out of their comfort zone, and for sure, it's not for everybody. Who needs a Corvette if a used Civic will get you to work? I hear folks talking about legal concerns, and I am pretty sure Crosman has been working that since day one.
I am interested in your thoughts about the caliber selection, too. Seems some want it bigger, some want it smaller, some like it at .357, and some don't want it at any caliber. I'm not sure I'll tell you how big my early protos were, LOL.
Thanks,
Lloyd
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No matter how you look at the Rogue, it is innovative. And about time a US manufacturer stepped up to the plate to extend the arm of the hobby/sport of air gunning...:)
I am in my 60's Lloyd and started shooting air guns when I retired 8 years ago. I loved power and the more the better...:) but after a couple years started to find my comfort zone. I shoot paper 95% of the time and have switched from power to mostly .177 springer's and PC's. Three of my PC's are Benjamin. Crosman helped many of us who could not afford an expensive PCP and all the hardware to support them. That was when I realized that Crosman was not just about making money. They have listened to us and now a couple years later have made some even more big steps to give us more variety. Spreading the hobby/sport even further.
Like Crosman we see more and more powder burner guys buying air guns. Getting to expensive to practice shooting them. There is a big market out there for more power and Crosman is breaking the tip of it with there new Rogue. Another leap forward...:)
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Gene,
I still haven't grown up enough to get past the greed for speed. Every airgun I own has been apart many times in hopes of making it better, and once in a while I succeeded. A few are still apart. With the ePCP prototypes that I made, each time I tried a new barrel length or caliber, I'd first try for maximum velocity and maximum energy. I always found that very exciting, seeing if I could set a new personal best. I'd back off from there until I was getting maybe 95% of max power but using half as much air. I could back down from there to get lower power and absurdly long shot strings. That was actually a much tougher challenge.
Lloyd