GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: D14Jeff on September 04, 2014, 12:23:00 AM
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have y'all ever tried these glue on piston buttons ?
http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251488/2365157.htm (http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251488/2365157.htm)
it doesn't say what they're made of , but i figure if Jim Maccari makes 'em they must be decent .
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Yes. On several guns. Prep surfaces correctly, glue, size to fit per instructions. They work, work well.
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Adhesion and making sure there added diameter within main tube is bind free ... Paramount ;)
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Hey Scott,
So even with a decently tuned springer (polished piston & chamber/lube) you would recommend the buttons just to insure the smaller diameter piston just can't hit the chamber wall during the shot cycle?
If yes, they seem especially appropriate for a magnum springer with a great deal of torque.
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Key to this process it preparation. They work but only with proper preparation of metal surface.
Gene
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For those of us who are new to this game.. what is a piston button?
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Buttons are glued to the outside of air gun compression pistons to take up the slack between piston and chamber tube.
http://www.kermitairgunclub.com/hw97/jkraner.htm (http://www.kermitairgunclub.com/hw97/jkraner.htm)
http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251488/2365157.htm (http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251488/2365157.htm)
Hope this explains
Gene
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Thanks Gene,
I think I understand.
I've attached a picture where I believe I'm identifying the buttons...
(http://)
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Thanks Gene........ ;)
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Hey Scott,
So even with a decently tuned springer (polished piston & chamber/lube) you would recommend the buttons just to insure the smaller diameter piston just can't hit the chamber wall during the shot cycle?
If yes, they seem especially appropriate for a magnum springer with a great deal of torque.
They certainly can help smooth up the action .. but as the power, shot cycle vibration and rotation / torque of some piston designs it becomes HARDER on the "Glue On" buttons and having them stay put becomes more difficult :P
* Counted bored holes and recessed buttons given the space work a lot better IMO.
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Scott you are exactly correct. Shallow bores in piston and a good bond with nylon buttons is the way a pro tuner does them.
Thanks
Gene
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Yes exactly Mike. Those are the counter bores that Scott was talking about. Back in the day, that was how us pro tuners would do them.
Gene
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are these too big ?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-1-4-in-20-tpi-x-1-4-in-Nylon-Hex-Bolt-2-Pack-48138/203537614 (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-1-4-in-20-tpi-x-1-4-in-Nylon-Hex-Bolt-2-Pack-48138/203537614)
or they wrong material ?
is it just drill and tap 3 symmetrical holes in the back of the piston , super glue them in , then cut , file and buff them down ? or is there more to it or a better way ?
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Depending on the size and thickness of piston wall, I personally would use mill bits and cut my shallow hole. I had different size nylon rods that I could use to set inside of shallow hole I made and clean and prep hole as well as piece of nylon. Cut piece of nylon round stock and glue it with a good 24 hr. epoxy to the hole. Let sit for 24 hours and go back and chuck up piston in lathe and turn down to fit tube I/D. For me it was cut and sand and test in tube type thing
Gene
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Yup ... you ideally want flat bottom holes that allow a disk of Nylon or Delrin to sit flush & flat within.
A conical drill point IS NOT Recommended, especially when working on thin piston tubes, you will go right on threw or have a VERY difficult time in accurate depth control. * It takes a firm hold and stable machine to even do this with a milling machine and end mill :-\
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Hey Motorhead,
I'm trying to dismiss the idea of using buttoms in my Hatsan as marginal value vs. time spend (I also don't have a mill :-\). But I had planned to add top hats to all my Hatsan springer's the next time I need to open them up (tame/smooth shot cycle).
IYO do you think the buttom idea should trump Top Hats? Do you have buttons on your AA TX or Stoeger X-20?
Tell me if I'm "urinating" in the wind ???
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Hey Motorhead,
I'm trying to dismiss the idea of using buttoms in my Hatsan as marginal value vs. time spend (I also don't have a mill :-\). But I had planned to add top hats to all my Hatsan springer's the next time I need to open them up (tame/smooth shot cycle).
IYO do you think the buttom idea should trump Top Hats? Do you have buttons on your AA TX or Stoeger X-20?
Tell me if I'm "urinating" in the wind ???
2 completely different things ... Piston buttons and Top hats :o
One address's adding bearing surfaces to a piston in hope of reducing friction loss's against main tube.
Other is Adding or Removing piston weight and spring pre-load within piston changing both cyclic speed and momentum.
??? Scott
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And I might add that adding weight to a piston will only increase the harshness to the shooting cycle of the air rifle.
Gene
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Great guys ;),
Yes, I completely understand Top Hats & Buttons are two different Mods aimed at solving different shot cycle issues.
On my Hatsan 95's & 135, when Top Hats are added, I was going to remove the lower (black plastic) washer on the spring guide.
This leaves only the metal washer which should give me the needed space for the Top Hat w/o increasing spring tension (I hope).
The Top Hat mod is to help remove the guns (twang or jerk) when firing.
My original question (worded badly) was to ask "which idea has more value for the shot cycle of a magnum springer?"
PS: ;) Gene :D Thank you for getting me back into this fine mess with your great posts on adding the Gas Ram to the Hatsan 95 :P I hadn't shot airguns in 37 years........but wanted to buy the gun and do a tune. You made it very clear, the Hatsan 95 was a mispriced diamond in the rough :D.
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I buttoned the pistons on a Mendoza (Crosman) RM577 and a B3-2. It does make a difference in smoothness. I also think it improves trigger consistency, especially on guns where the sear latches the wall of the piston instead of a central rod.
I would agree that it's all about surface preparation. I didn't trust super glue, so I went with metal. On the RM577 I had a welding shop goober on some brazing rod in a ring around the piston, and on the B3 I soldered on brass disks made from spent pistol shells, spaced 120 degrees. I only did it to the rear "skirt" of the piston, reasoning that the piston seal would "float" the front part.
Either way, plastic or metal, the last step of dressing them down so they'll fit will be the same.
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Great guys ;),
Yes, I completely understand Top Hats & Buttons are two different Mods aimed at solving different shot cycle issues.
On my Hatsan 95's & 135, when Top Hats are added, I was going to remove the lower (black plastic) washer on the spring guide.
This leaves only the metal washer which should give me the needed space for the Top Hat w/o increasing spring tension (I hope).
The Top Hat mod is to help remove the guns (twang or jerk) when firing.
My original question (worded badly) was to ask "which idea has more value for the shot cycle of a magnum springer?"
With all the spring pressure and violent shot cycle vibration happening within most MAGNUM ag's ...
A good MOLY lube on Piston / Main tube will be sufficient IMO. A snug fitted spring guide, polished spring ends wearing on thin nylon washers each end of spring will help with the torque issues and shot cycle vibration.
Screwing with Top Hat weight under these higher power states of tune likely won't do much or be that definitive to help or hurt :o
Just try different hat weight and just find out for sure ;)
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I plan to button the Walther Talon only for the fact that when cocking it there's alot of upwards pressure on the piston.
I'm still undecided on which buttoning technique I'll use but I'm not in a hurry to take it down right now.
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Just my experience.....
I bought a Nitro Venom Dusk which has since been converted to a wood stock. After 400 - 500 shots it started to get real "grindy". I opened it up to find a huge gouge in the top side of the chamber wall oposite the trigger. I smoothed it out the best I could and molyed it up and put it back together. 50 shots later it was doing the same thing. I was going to order a new tube from Crosman any how so I thought I would give the old homemade button job a shot. I cleaned the piston off real good with alcohol and super gluded on 4 1/4 x 1/4 nibs of the stiffest part of a Mountain Dew bottle. 2 on either side of the gouge and 2 straight across from those. So, basically I had placed them at 2:00, 4:00, 8:00 and 10:00 if you will. I sanded them with 600 grit paper until they fit snuggly back in the chamber and applied moly paste. That was over 1000+ shots ago and it is a smooth as silk. Both cocking and shooting. I haven't chronyed it since I first did it but, there is a post here somewhere showing a string at 915 fps and 19-20 fpe with 10.5 ultra mag .177( if I remember right). At 35 yds I can hit a dime everytime I am good enough. This is one gun I will keep forever.