GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Freebird on September 01, 2014, 02:23:53 AM
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Hi everyone,
Long time lurker with first time post here.
I've read many discussions on spring versus gas ram and I'm still not sure what I want for my first gun.
I feel that I'll get used to either one just fine since I've not shot anything air for many years so that probably won't matter as much to me. The debate seems to run pretty much neck and neck depending on which aspect is being considered and many of the guns I'm looking at should do well enough for me.
My main concern besides shear shooting pleasure and cheaper practice is to have something in a SHTF scenario that could be used for varmint hunting and garden protection that would not draw much attention. This being the case I am also concerned with breakdowns and parts availability. Spare springs and seals could be had easy enough and put aside but I think gas pistons would not be so affordable to keep on hand.
I'm looking at the Hatsan 95 and have read that it uses plain air and can be adjusted for pressure. Would it be possible to re-pressurize a small leak if such should occur or do they just blow their guts out? Are the wear parts replaceable or repairable on a gas piston? If I get a gas piston gun and a spare spring would it be difficult to simply convert it to springer if the need occurs? Would I need special tools to do so that might be difficult to obtain? I'm pretty mechanically inclined and will learn this gun inside and out doing some of my own "tuning" as well.
I'm hoping to put together a nice basic setup for under $300 and put spare parts aside as I can.
I would love to hear some of your thoughts from this angle?
You folks have really been a wealth of information for me and I appreciate this great sight!
I'm open to any other suggestions as well on my buying decisions. THX
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$300 will easily get you a Diana 34.
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Hi, Morris. Welcome to the GTA!! Springs, as replacement parts, are much less expensive than gas struts - though both last for a LOT of pellets!! I sure wouldn't keep a gas strut as a spare for fear it would leak or deteriorate with age - it would probably be years before it was needed!!
Most gas strut guns can be converted to spring. Some spring guns can convert easily to gas strut, others not at all.
To work on most springers you need a spring compressor. There are plans and you can make one fairly easily, you may even have all the parts at home already. Beyond that most of the work can be accomplished with simple hand tools.
You do need to consider whether you want a fixed barrel or a break barrel. Will you shoot with open sights or a scope? Give a bit of thought to caliber and power. More powerful guns are more difficult (generally) to learn to shoot. Springs, struts, and seals can be easily obtained from after market vendors. Many other parts can be difficult to obtain. That may weigh into your decision.
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$300 will easily get you a Diana 34.
I love the Diana 34 but I'll probably plan to scope mine and I'm thinking this will cost a third the price of the gun as well.
That puts me well over my budget unless I find a used deal.
I'm thinking the Hatsan should be fairly close enough in quality that with some work I can get it near a Diana, at least in function. And while the quattro trigger may not be in the same league as the t06 it does appear to be closer than lesser triggers.
Hatsan may never have the resell value but I plan to pass it on to the grandson anyway.
Also, the Hatsan would permit me to try the gas piston up front with the option to convert to springer if the need or desire should arise. I am concerned with a gas leak. Thinking about a springer relieves that concern but even they are good for only so many shots from what I've read.
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Hi, Morris. Welcome to the GTA!! Springs, as replacement parts, are much less expensive than gas struts - though both last for a LOT of pellets!! I sure wouldn't keep a gas strut as a spare for fear it would leak or deteriorate with age - it would probably be years before it was needed!!
Most gas strut guns can be converted to spring. Some spring guns can convert easily to gas strut, others not at all.
To work on most springers you need a spring compressor. There are plans and you can make one fairly easily, you may even have all the parts at home already. Beyond that most of the work can be accomplished with simple hand tools.
You do need to consider whether you want a fixed barrel or a break barrel. Will you shoot with open sights or a scope? Give a bit of thought to caliber and power. More powerful guns are more difficult (generally) to learn to shoot. Springs, struts, and seals can be easily obtained from after market vendors. Many other parts can be difficult to obtain. That may weigh into your decision.
If their are plans for a compressor I can probably build it.
I wanted a fixed barrel but there are many more options in a break barrel and I'm not sure it's that critical for me. I like the loading of a break barrel and if its quality built I think it should suffice.
I'm really looking to get a .22 to assure clean kills on varmints that might raid the chicken house such as possums and coons or maybe even foxes. While it wouldn't kill a coyote it would convince them to leave. We've had to deal with all of these through the years.
I'm trying to get it out of my head that one night I might need this gun and find it flat if it has a gas piston. Is this something that you can sense coming or do they just usually go at once without warning? I'm really wanting to give the gas a chance so I don't feel like I'm missing something.
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$300 will easily get you a Diana 34.
I'll vouch for the m34, I've had one for over 15 years and it still shoots fantastic, even though I abused it a lot as a kid. It's only had the spring replaced once and still has a lot of power.
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springs in storage will last for generations as long as they aren't allowed to rust...I'm not sure about gas rams...
the ram is easier and quicker to change but the difference is like that between peeling an apple with a knife and peeling an orange with a spoon handle, a tad trickier and a bit more care/attention are required along with some extra clean up... but not much more..
I'm considering buying a spring and making some guides for my gas ram Titan, just fer giggles
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I've had both, and to me the gas ram is superior. Springers require a lot more maintenance, and can be twangy even after tuning. Plus you can leave a gas ram cocked for days without issue.
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Morris, in your initial post you mentioned a nice basic setup for under $300. What does that mean? I understand the $300 part. That's pretty specific. Nice is not as clear, it's kind of subjective. Basic setup means different things to different people. Is this supposed to include a scope? Are you purchasing spare parts at the same time and including them in this number? Suggestions would be easier if the parameters were more clearly defined.
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$300 will go extremely fast, especially if your idea of nice, is the same as mine. LOL. By the way welcome to the greatest airgun forum.... ;)
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Check out the refurbished RWS 34's at Air Gun Depot. With a few tins of pellets it will be less than $200 shipped. The 34 Meisterschütze and compact models come with a scope. If you dont see any 34 refurbs call AGD and ask how you secure one when they arrive.
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Morris, in your initial post you mentioned a nice basic setup for under $300. What does that mean? I understand the $300 part. That's pretty specific. Nice is not as clear, it's kind of subjective. Basic setup means different things to different people. Is this supposed to include a scope? Are you purchasing spare parts at the same time and including them in this number? Suggestions would be easier if the parameters were more clearly defined.
I'm kinda going at it from two fronts. By "nice" I mean that I know the value of good machining versus "stamped", but even after that comes tolerances, polishing, tuning. German craftsmanship seems to often excel in this area across the board. We can build quality just as well here but I can't afford the price usually or else in this price range I'm not certain where to find it. The Hatsan from Turkey seems to be in the middle. The Chinese can clone a gun and "sometimes" do a fairly decent job though I never would be certain of the steel used. All of these can benefit from a master tuner and made into very adequate piece but I usually can't afford master tuners either, although Mike Melick seems to get a lot of praise. I'd rather buy one of his guns with his polish than a Gamo off the shelf. But, I've been accused of being a perfectionist at times (I'm NOT) and I would be very attuned to taking a solid platform and getting some tuning practice on it. Gene has made some offerings that I've missed which were crazy nice in my book for the money! Solid builds with very nice scope packages and most of all a boatload of his experience which I considered worth as much as his asking price for the guns.
"Nice" a solid platform that might need some work but has plenty of potential. Just trying to be frugal without getting stuck with junk.
I'm thinking I should be able to find a gun for around $200 that I can be proud of and a scope package for the other hundred. A good scope can make a poor marksman have a better day even with an average gun once he learns the gun.
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$300 will go extremely fast, especially if your idea of nice, is the same as mine. LOL. By the way welcome to the greatest airgun forum.... ;)
Thanks F4milytime! No doubt, $300 seems to be the very lowest I can get in at the level that would meet my needs!
I'm only able to do this because I've convinced the wife that I'll get her something as well. ;) SO, we both know in the end it will grow...we'll deal with that "hand to mouth" as time goes by. This is a hungry animal though! I can see that.
Still beats buying a horse. ???
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Check out the refurbished RWS 34's at Air Gun Depot. With a few tins of pellets it will be less than $200 shipped. The 34 Meisterschütze and compact models come with a scope. If you dont see any 34 refurbs call AGD and ask how you secure one when they arrive.
I've been eyeing them for a couple of weeks now but the right one hasn't come up yet. They have had some pretty fair deals though. After missing a couple of Gene's deals I'm really starting to put more into a good master tuner. I would love to know that someone with experience had pawed over my gun and gave it a big thumbs up! None of the guns at AGD have been signed off by him. ;D
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I'll throw in for the D34, too. I have two of them! I also have a Crosman Titan, an NPSS, and I have had a Benji Trail, all in .22 caliber. I have had all of them apart for cleaning, tuning, and lubing. I sold the Trail because it was just too heavy, and somewhat hold sensitive. If I had to choose between the Titan, the NPSS, or a D34, I'd reach for the D34 every time, regardless of the task at hand. All are capable of dispatching pests and small game. (All of mine have.)
Yes, the gas ram guns are nice, and you can leave them cocked forever, but they can be and often are just as hold sensitive as a steel coil spring powered gun. In some cases, more so. I cannot bring myself to honestly say that they are necessarily superior. I call my NPSS "Clang" because of the gong noise it makes when fired. My D34 makes no such noise.
Considering your budget, I'd still point you to the D34 classic, and advise you to shoot it with open sights until you absolutely need a scope. (There was time when my vision was such that I could hit sub-2" targets at 15 to 20 yards with the open sights on mine.)
If you are bent on buying a gas ram, look at the Crosman outlet store. You can pick up a refurbished Titan for around $85, but keep in mind it will need a little TLC in the form of a thorough cleaning and re-lubing, possibly a new seal, some deburring, brass pivot washers, a gas ram stabilizer (if you can find one) and a GRT-III trigger. You'll need to build or buy a spring compressor to work on it. (There is a thread that shows many different designs. Use the search feature and you'll find it.) After all that, you should have enough left of the original $300 for a decent low end scope.
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Research the XS28 and do look at flyingdragonairrifles. Break barrel very good quality all the way around , more power than you need yet the one I tried out was as smooth as an RWS34. (and the 34 is good).
LOT's of airgunners in TN, maybe try shooting what others have first?
John
John, I've actually passed on a couple of decent deals on the RWS 350 thinking it was a bit much to tromp the woods in considering the weight and length. From what I can tell it's the same exact weight as my sons old Eddystone 30/06 rifle and this was before scoping. Also, from what I could tell it was just a bit more than I feel I need but I'm not sure it is. Though I almost pulled the trigger on the xs25 at FlyingDragon in the beginning.
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I'll throw in for the D34, too. I have two of them! I also have a Crosman Titan, an NPSS, and I have had a Benji Trail, all in .22 caliber. I have had all of them apart for cleaning, tuning, and lubing. I sold the Trail because it was just too heavy, and somewhat hold sensitive. If I had to choose between the Titan, the NPSS, or a D34, I'd reach for the D34 every time, regardless of the task at hand. All are capable of dispatching pests and small game. (All of mine have.)
Yes, the gas ram guns are nice, and you can leave them cocked forever, but they can be and often are just as hold sensitive as a steel coil spring powered gun. In some cases, more so. I cannot bring myself to honestly say that they are necessarily superior. I call my NPSS "Clang" because of the gong noise it makes when fired. My D34 makes no such noise.
Considering your budget, I'd still point you to the D34 classic, and advise you to shoot it with open sights until you absolutely need a scope. (There was time when my vision was such that I could hit sub-2" targets at 15 to 20 yards with the open sights on mine.)
If you are bent on buying a gas ram, look at the Crosman outlet store. You can pick up a refurbished Titan for around $85, but keep in mind it will need a little TLC in the form of a thorough cleaning and re-lubing, possibly a new seal, some deburring, brass pivot washers, a gas ram stabilizer (if you can find one) and a GRT-III trigger. You'll need to build or buy a spring compressor to work on it. (There is a thread that shows many different designs. Use the search feature and you'll find it.) After all that, you should have enough left of the original $300 for a decent low end scope.
BmaS, I actually placed an order on Crosman Outlet site about 3 weeks ago for 2 of the Titans with 2 slings and 2 pellet pouches. Called the next morning to make sure they had my order because I hadn't gotten an instant email response. Email response had come by then and all was in order. Said they did have the order and it would ship that afternoon. I had gotten tired of shopping and thought this was a very good deal even if it wasn't my first pick of rifles. Thought sure I'd have them for this weekend shooting with my grandson. After 2 weeks I called them to find out that they had 0 in stock and mine had not shipped. Checked my bank and Crosman had placed a pending funds on the account (money was there) but had not actually drew on it. They went out of stock on the site and have since come back and I've heard nothing else from them. I quit looking at Crosman after that.
Love the way you've named your guns...like chickens , don't name 'em or you'll never be able to dispatch them. I'll have to do that. I'm learning so much from you guys! 8)
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Yeah, I need to un-name a few of them, or at least rename them "sold pending funds" -- that'll make it easier to let'em go.
Sorry to hear about your troubles ordering from Crosman. I've bought a few from them and haven't had problems.
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Sounds like you have the same deal I have with my wife. If I spend $50 on a Beeman R11 I have to give her $50 cash. You wouldn't believe some of the deals I told my wife I got. :)
Seriously, with your budget I would give Mike at Flying Dragon a call and discuss your needs and your budget. He is a five star person. ;)
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When I got my WFH the last thing I worried about was it leaking down. Then it did. If you've read all the opinions people have you might come to the same conclusion I have after replacing the gas spring with a coil spring. The differences in shooting characterists are a little different but both can accomplish what you want. I like coil springs as they are cheaper. Easy to store an extra. Not effected by cold as much. I think you're on the right track with a 95 and a ~$70 Hawke scope, or even $50.
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Get yourself a Hatsan 95 Vortex and you will have a more powerful, sweet walnut stock and highly tuneable rifle. You will also have funds for a nice scope, before you are at the cost of a 34.
Mine has a ragged hole at 20 yards, all day long. The Vortex ram is seriously nice!
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Thanks for all the advice and opinions everyone. I've placed an order for a Hatsan 95 Vortex.
After a lot of reading and listening to others experiences with this and other guns it just settles well that this is going to serve me well. It would have been great to handle one first but I'm so at home with this gun that I'm very comfortable with the decision. Even if it winds up being converted to a springer down the road I will at least know the difference between the two.
I love everything I see about the Diana 34 as well but it doesn't come stock as a gas piston and for the extra price I think I would rather spend that on a nicer scope at this time. As addicting as these things are it possible I will wind up with one eventually.
Now I'm anxious for UPS to get here. It's due Monday so it might be a bit of a wait before I get to shoot cause I want to give it a careful going over first. Hope I get a good one! You guys have been super helpful in making me feel informed and comfortable with my decision.
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Good luck with your Hatsan 95 Vortex. Now you need to find a scope..
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Good luck with your Hatsan 95 Vortex. Now you need to find a scope..
Thanks ancient1one,
I'm excited as a teenager! Been reading many posts trying to learn what I can about my options.
I'm leaning towards Centerpoint and Hawke for value but I'll probably wait for a good deal to come up here.
I really want to find the best sling mount arrangement cause I know for sure I'll want a sling.
Next is my concern for learning the best scope mount base setup. I' like to have a Weaver mount or it like I see many of them come with in other countries. Just haven't figured out what I'm actually seeing on other guns yet. I have no idea if the Hatsans will have barrel droop or not so I'll wait to see what mine actually needs.
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Thanks ancient1one,
I'm excited as a teenager!
It does bring you back in time huh?
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Enjoy your new rifle! Like to read about such excitement from folks!
Clean the barrel well...Shoot it for a tin ... and clean it again, and shoot for a bit more before scoping it, if you can hold off. You'll see how the rifle will change after a break-in period. Rough actions are hard on a new scope.
The Centerpoint scopes are a good choice, in that you can get them locally, and exchange/refund them cheaply and quickly. Very popular and good value for starting with.
ENJOY!!!! ;)
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Good luck with your Hatsan 95 Vortex. Now you need to find a scope..
Thanks ancient1one,
I'm excited as a teenager! Been reading many posts trying to learn what I can about my options.
I'm leaning towards Centerpoint and Hawke for value but I'll probably wait for a good deal to come up here.
I really want to find the best sling mount arrangement cause I know for sure I'll want a sling.
Next is my concern for learning the best scope mount base setup. I' like to have a Weaver mount or it like I see many of them come with in other countries. Just haven't figured out what I'm actually seeing on other guns yet. I have no idea if the Hatsans will have barrel droop or not so I'll wait to see what mine actually needs.
The Hawke Varmint was a $130 today. D14Jeff posted it in bargain gate, they usually sell for over $200. Awesome scope for $130 I have a Varmint on a marauder.. If I see another good deal I will PM you.
A nice sling makes a good looking gun look better. When you get your Hatsan 95 set up post some photos. Always fun getting and setting up a new air gun. Enjoy it..