GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: D14Jeff on August 29, 2014, 07:52:04 AM
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just how much difference is there between a gas piston springer with a real good tune vs. a springer with a real good tune ? by real good tune i mean like a kit from ARH or vortek etc. with high end springs , guides , tophats , tars and seals and lubes .... along with proper cleaning and prep of the gun . comparing guns of similar series and same caliber .... is there just a little difference ? fair amount of difference ? a whole lot of difference ? is it always better with the gas piston ?
and for tinkerers ...... assuming the gas piston is always better ..... is using a gas piston worth losing the benefit of being able to easily play with different springs to adjust the shooting cycle and FPE of the gun ?
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I like a good springer with a nice tune myself unless you're talking about high end gas piston like Theoben. They are no longer available so I will go with a quality springer. I personally shoot the gas rams better but it doesn't mean they're better by any means, some folks hate them. Gas rams are not for everyone and I would recommend trying before buying.
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I can not tell you about a gas piston tune, but I can tell you about a spring piston tune. Night and day difference.
I had Ed Krzynowek tune a TX200MK3 & a D-34 (I have since sold) and the results were great. Smoother shot cycle, dream triggers and with those two alone it helped accuracy.
I recently bought a HW97K and I will tell you that Mike Sheron is a master. You would not believe the shot cycle or trigger on this beauty. It is so good I can not say I have a best rifle only 1A, 1B, & 1C.
So in short, a master full tune on a rifle is the way to go. There are many master tuners right here on GTA, and I am sure you can easily find one for either a spring piston or a gas ram.
Good luck on your journey. :)
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A gas strut does not have the tuning flexibility of a spring. The shot cycle will always be harsh. You could replace the gas strut with a milder one but that's about it. The spring has total flexibility.
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Another vote for smooth shooting springs!
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;D Lest we forget standard vs magnum My TX 200 MK III almost bone stock ( Motor Head spring guide) and home tune has an easier cocking effort and softer shot cycle than my Vorteked Diana 460 .177
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Great topic. I didn't even know that springs could be 'tuned' themselves.
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Or you could by a Hatsan with their Vortex ram, and change the pressure to whatever you like, between 1-150 bar pressure. Fills with a ordinary pcp fill probe.
No way to tune a gas ram??? LOL Some people just need to learn new things. 8)
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And maybe some people should learn some common courtesy.......
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A gas strut does not have the tuning flexibility of a spring. The shot cycle will always be harsh. You could replace the gas strut with a milder one but that's about it. The spring has total flexibility.
I don't like to let misinformation go unchallenged, so:
"A gas strut does not have the tuning flexibility of a spring." - false
You can achieve a wider variety of power levels with a gas spring.
"The shot cycle will always be harsh." - ?
If by "harsh", you mean "quick", than usually true. Some people like the quick cycle, some people don't.
"You could replace the gas strut with a milder one but that's about it. " - false
You can also replace it with a stronger gas spring.
"The spring has total flexibility." - false
A wire spring is limited in many ways by the space available inside the rifle and spring by availability.
I'm not saying that I prefer one over the other. It depends on what characteristics I want in a particular rifle. I own both types. I've tuned both types. I like both types.
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Very well said, Scott.
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Once changed, you pretty much can't unchange a spring.
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wow , i was expecting more supporters of gas rams/struts than metal . i've seen the video of the tuners comparing metal to gas and they liked the metal better too . but honestly , i take anything written/suggested by someone whose wallet can be effected by what they say with a grain of salt ...... that's why i'm asking-+ here ;) . i've been reading about changing piston weight and FWIU going too heavy or too light can each cause their own problems , it's a balancing act . i know the hatsans vortex gas rams can be adjusted for pressure , but the extra gear to do it co$t more than i'd be willing to spend at this point in my life . if i was gonna buy invest in PCP fear i'd get a PCP gun and bypass springers all together . i do appreciate the option being mentioned though .
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wow , i was expecting more supporters of gas rams/struts than metal . i've seen the video of the tuners comparing metal to gas and they liked the metal better too . but honestly , i take anything written/suggested by someone whose wallet can be effected by what they say with a grain of salt ...... that's why i'm asking-+ here ;) . i've been reading about changing piston weight and FWIU going too heavy or too light can each cause their own problems , it's a balancing act . i know the hatsans vortex gas rams can be adjusted for pressure , but the extra gear to do it co$t more than i'd be willing to spend at this point in my life . if i was gonna buy invest in PCP fear i'd get a PCP gun and bypass springers all together . i do appreciate the option being mentioned though .
Now that you decided on a spring piston you are hooked. I think you should buy 3 spring piston rifles, HW97, HW98, & TX200MK3. Tune them all and send them to me to evaluate not only your work but the rifles themselves. It should not take me longer than 2 years to do a full evaluation. :)
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;D If you can find a club nearby go to a shoot and ask questions I went to the AG range 1/2 hour from my home a few weeks ago and had the opportunity to shoot a couple of high end rifles and one custom all out field target competition match rifle . That one cost as much as all my AG;s and scopes together . Amazing accuracy and super light trigger but after 5 shots it seemed like I couldn't miss. My point is try as many rifles as possible if the opportunity is there before you start spending your hard earned money on something that disappoints you. The Scope was a Schmitt and Bender just the scope was $3,000 +
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LMGFAO @ BOOGER !!!!!
i'll get them to you ASAP ;)
sfttailrdr46 , that's probably what i need to do before spending my first penny on a springer . thanks :) .
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I don't care if a spring gun is noisy, twangs, thunks or whatever since I have yet to find a spring gun that shoots more harshly than an across the course rifle. I care about precision/accuracy. Thus, I have to get my hands on an RX2 or an HW90 with adjustable gas ram to see if it can be tuned to do a better job (defined as more repeatable and more predicable POI) than a coiled spring spring gun.
I'm not saying "smooth as butter" is bad. I'm just saying my performance druthers seem to be vastly different that many other spring gunners.
BTW: I thought i was going to have a hernia, and I almost turned the barrel into a bow, the first time I tried to cock an HW90 gas ram rifle that was sitting on the vendor's shelf.
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Spring for me. Here is something to think about. Why don't you see gas rams in competition like Field Target? The FT crowd is always looking for an edge.
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Spring for me. Here is something to think about. Why don't you see gas rams in competition like Field Target? The FT crowd is always looking for an edge.
If things work out I will be bringing 3 spring rifles, one tuned (HW97K), one needs retuning (TX200MK3), and one untuned (R11). Even if I do not shoot, I will share my toys. :)
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...Why don't you see gas rams in competition like Field Target?...
The most common type of spring guns used by FT competitors are not compatible with gas springs. That's probably the main reason why you don't see more gas spring guns in field target.
Of the low end break barrels that are used in FT, many of them use a gas spring. The winners in the FT crowd tend to prefer the higher end fixed barrel rifles. They are not available with gas springs. At least not yet.
I have used both gas spring and wire spring in my field target rifles. The gas spring is influenced by temperature. The wire spring is not. +1 for the wire spring. With the wire spring, it is hard to eliminate all spring torque. Not a problem for gas springs. +1 for the gas spring.
My side lever QB58 has a gas spring installed and I doubt that I could have done as well with it if using a wire spring. I learned to monitor and compensate for temperature shifts.
My side lever M54 has a wire spring. I don’t worry about temperature shifts but it does have a small poi shift which I suspect is a result of spring torque and rotation. It is minor and acceptable at this point. No temperature shifts, so one less thing to deal with during a match.
The gas spring is much easier to setup to have a decent shot cycle, and desired power level. If I can get the reliable power that I want from a wire spring, that is my current choice for a target rifle. I don’t mind spending the extra effort to get a wire spring gun shooting smooth. Though, that may change at some point.
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Jeff,
A couple of suggestions:
1.) Check out the GTA Members map: https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=962067 (https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=962067)
2.) Look for a GTA shooting event like the one we are going to be having in October: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=72733.msg699384#new (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=72733.msg699384#new)
At the last event we had, there were only 4 of us, last minute get together, and we had about 30 rifles to shoot, all kinds of springers, gas ram and PCP. I know some guys get together in South Jersey every couple of months too, they have some fabulous guns there....