GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: VoodooSteve on August 20, 2014, 09:59:07 PM
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the quality of airguns is so poor.
Now I'm not talking about high dollar guns, pcp's or customs, but guns in the under $200 range.....I've bought 3 in the last 2 months, all were over $100 but less than $200, all came with "scopes" which were at best &^^&, all were poor shooters, mostly due to the poor triggers, 2 were spring guns, and one a gas piston, the gas gun is the worst and in dealing with the dealer, and company, I'm not a happy camper, heck it was cheaper to buy the new piston seals than to go through the hassle of shipping it back as I live in a rural area, and in this rural area I needed hunting caliber air rifles, and thought that's what I was getting, but i wouldn't have shot a living critter with them past 5 yards when they were new........was and am I still expecting too much from guns marketed as hunting air guns?......and upon perusing this site, I find myself extremely leery of purchasing ANY airgun as they all seem to suffer from quality problems, and all seem to need work to do what they are intended to do.......Is this the accepted norm for new air guns?......
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Hey VoodooSteve,
1) What 3 guns did you buy?
2) How accurate do the guns need to be?
3) You may want to look at the following airguns:
- Hatsan 95 is a nice gun for $159, but you will need to spend about $80/$90 to get a decent scope.
The scope that comes with it is junk.
- Go to the GTA Mall and to Flying Dragon Airguns. Look at the Xisico XS-26 or XS-28. Mike Melick can tune them
for an additional $100. As above, you will need to add an $80/$90 or better scope.
4) All airguns benefit from a good tune.
You just can't get it all for $200.
My two cents...........
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What he said
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SpiralGroove, I'd rather not say what guns I bought as this thread could be interpreted as me bashing the manufacturers, and I feel that only one of them has and is still dropping the ball, for instance today, I spoke to them on the phone as I was wanting to replace the piston seal and barrel, at my cost too, but I was told they have not had ANY replacement .22 barrels in months due to poor quality from the maker......but they are still selling the guns with those barrels......think about that for a second.......
And I'd like them to be at most 3" at 25 yards........
And one I will mention, it's a Hatsan Striker Edge in .25, the scope was awful, but I upgraded it, the trigger was awful too, and I did a trigger job on it, it now shoots pretty good, but it was filthy dirty and should have been cleaned before it was packed for sale.....
And the clincher in all this is that I bought an old chinese b3 used at a rummage for $5 bucks 9 years ago, it has been put through *(&^, left outside, dropped, beat around and has never been cleaned as long as I've had it and it still shoots better than any of these 3 new guns.......and it has no scope......I just won't shoot anything past 20 yards with it due to it's power limitation........
And I do understand I can't have it all for $200...... but $200 is a lot to me for a pellet gun, heck I've bought better real guns for less, I would like to think that a $100-200 pellet gun should be capable of a 3" 5 shot group at 25 yards if it's marketed as a hunting weapon......anything less would be unethical for me to take hunting. and if your wondering, I'm 54 and have been shooting firearms all my life, even built a few ultimate .22's, and can hit a ping pong ball with my longbow more times out of 5 than 2 of the 3 airguns I have at 20 yards......I've shot archery my whole life too and have been building Elk risered take down longbows for the last 9 years.
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Quality does not seem a priority with the Chinese airguns. They are being aimed at a price point. Not everybody is willing to pay $600 or even $300 for an airgun. The newer airguns have more power than your trusty B3. Speed is a big selling point but it can have a negative effect on accuracy. More powerful airguns have stronger springs (or gas struts) which accelerate the piston quickly to produce the air. Pistons have mass and consequently there is significant recoil to consider.
Held correctly with the right pellet most modern spring airguns can achieve one inch groups or less at twenty to twenty five yards. The catch being you may have to replace the trigger and the piston seal to get a consistent shooter.
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Hey VoodooSteve,
This forum is the place where you can politely tell other members the good/bad about a particular make & model.
Most likely we've heard it before, but new members need to know.
All the guns I've mentioned should shoot at less than 1.5" at 25 yards, otherwise send it back (costing $20).
I would shop exclusively from Pyramyd Air in Ohio, as they have a great return policy and provide excellent service.
All Hatsan springer's come with the Optima scope; it's a real POS. You're correct, the Striker's trigger is not a good one. The Striker's don't have a Turkish Walnut stock, Quattro trigger or SAS recoil system as the 95's do. I wouldn't recommend one unless you need a 6.5 lb gun vs. the 7.8 lb Hatsan 95.
It sounds like you're pretty handy. I'm still recommending the 3 guns above..........you can likely tune them yourself.
Go the GTA mall - James MCcarri at AGH to buy most piston seals and all the lube you need for a good tune.
Good luck..........
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i wouldn't say its air guns alone, many fire arm manufacturers aren't what the used to be either.
but let me add this, as a long time fire arms shooter, the first time i shot a springer i was very disappointed. if this is you're first springer there will be a learning curve. a good friend of mine compares it to shooting a bow very much so you'll get the hang of it,
springers are tuff.
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there are companies who we all know are pushing FPS and hyped videos, they are putting out low cost guns with exaggerated ratings which do not relate to real world use, they are also impacted with poor quality control and precision parts. that low price comes at a cost which many find out after buying one. I just won't buy some brands period. but also, some of these inexpensive guns can be made better if you have the skills to rework them or have them tuned and that raises the cost and you may not still be satisfied.
I have a beeman rs3 and it while somewhat accurate it is not consistant, it drew blood when I first picked it up due to the razoe sharp edges, drew more blood when I removed it from it's syn stock. it has yet to make anything bleed besides me
my personal opinion, some of these guns and the hype that comes with them appeal to man's base instinct, more power, faster. which comes with a down side.
I'd rather save for a better gun than buy some of what's out there. or at the least get what is a proven model and save for the next step up.
as for they all need work, many don't, it may be a preference of the owner to craft it to their needs. and just to point out, you can get a bad expensive airgun so it's a matter of choosing based on a proven track record of a particular model gun and caliber. and I don't want a gun so hold sensitive that I need to take a yoga class to be able to shoot it.*L*
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I can only recommend 2 guns for a beginner & both are out of your price range. The first is a D-34 with the T06 trigger, the other I have never owned but I own it's twin brother (R11) and that is the R9/HW95 with the Rekord Trigger. Both guns will last you a long time with good accuracy, and the triggers are nice.
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Unfortunately you get what you pay for. You bought three guns, assuming a median price of $150 each, which means you've got about $450 into them. At $450 there are a myriad of new guns out there that would be of good to excellent quality. Furthermore, the scope packages reduce over all quality of one or both items to meet the price point.
A lot of times, a person will drop $300 bucks or more on a .22lr, but when it comes to air guns it has to be cheap, otherwise you can buy a real gun. Or so the logic goes.
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yup..
80% or more will need surgery to get minute of beer can at 25 yards accuracy and to last more than a few thousand shots...
AFTER buying special gunk (goo gone) and cleaning the coagulated whale oil preservative out of the barrel:
my Benji Titan had to have the barrel pivot adjusted significantly (like 2 turns in) to get better than 10" accuracy at 10 yards...then I basically got 1 hole at 10 yards after that...
by then, I had already put a GTR3 trigger in it so I could predict when it was going to fire...that trigger is SWEET
a local tuner took mercy on me and performed on laying on of the hands...reduced the shot to shot speed difference by 75% which increased the average speed
then the scope keeled over....and I don't have bread for another....
since that time I have had my hands on a newer designed and produced Crossman Fury 2 that out of the box had the trigger that was rumored to be an improved design, all of the "awfullness" was removed...while not a particularly good trigger, it was far more useable than lamentable...
the 80% I said a minute ago?..that's a lie....the barrel washers need changed and the waste of time oil needs to replaced with something hugely more appropriate to the application of an airgun, the seal will need to be replaced and main tube deburred before the seal goes in so it won't get nicked...and that's before you even fire it, let alone look at the scope and trigger...
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I have been through 3 springer/piston guns in 12 months. Lets just say I am a slow learner. Best advice I can give is do your research on this site and listen to what the springer vets have to say. I have decided I am not a springer/piston kind of guy. Simply don't have the time to dedicate to learning the shooting style and to "tune" one up. I have not abandon the pellet gun hobby. I just moved to the PCP end of the spectrum on Monday.
All I can say is that I should have done it long ago. Spent a month on this site reading and learning all I could about which PCP fits my style and budget. That was the best thing I even did. More then pleased with my purchase. I am a skilled shooter with centerfire target rifles. I thought that would transfer to the springer side. Boy was I wrong. Lots to learn and practice with a springer/piston gun. I do not have that much spare time or space to do so.
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I have been through 3 springer/piston guns in 12 months. Lets just say I am a slow learner. Best advice I can give is do your research on this site and listen to what the springer vets have to say. I have decided I am not a springer/piston kind of guy. Simply don't have the time to dedicate to learning the shooting style and to "tune" one up. I have not abandon the pellet gun hobby. I just moved to the PCP end of the spectrum on Monday.
All I can say is that I should have done it long ago. Should have read more about the lower cost springers $200 range. I am a skilled shooter with centerfire target rifles. I thought that would transfer to the springer side. Boy was I wrong. Lots to learn and practice with a springer/piston gun. I do not have that much spare time or space to do so.
Learning a springer isn't as hard as you state, I shoot 500 to 1000 shots a week (sometimes more). Who is practicing? I just sit, drink coffee, shoot targets, smoke cigarettes, and the most fun part is smoking pests in my back yard. :)
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Thanks for the replies fellas, i know and use the artillery hold, and I do understand the spring guns have a lot going on while the pellet is still in the barrel, and yes speed is a fickle mistress, but a lot of fun too,lol,lol.........I bought these three, a .177, .22 and a .25 with the intention of keeping the favorite, but I think I'll just chock them up to experience and get something a bit nicer and better suited to my needs which not only include hunting but pest control too, and out here we have some pretty large and aggressive pests that have feasted on our pets, chickens and ducks........I do like precision shooting and I'd like to eventually get something that would be consistant to 70 yards or so...but until then I will check out the 95, might just be a great next step. Maybe the seal will fix the gas gun too, might just sell it and put the green towards an already modded gun......I do like building things, but the bows I do don't leave me much time for stuff like that anymore.....
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Colorider, If I may ask, which PCP did you settle on?
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Chinese airguns are junk period, that's why they need so much work (IMO), and at $200 that's pretty much what you will get a chinese gun. As of right now, I'm having trouble with one of my china airguns too, problem after problem keeps popping up, and this is with new parts, So I know the feeling.
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There's also a "break in" period where the parts begin to mate and things settle down.
This can take a few hundred pellets. After the rifle is settled into itself you can start evaluating groups and pellet preference.
Some of my best shooters were horrible out of the box but only required time and a small amount of elbow grease to get much better.
The time was passed shooting them (trying different holds, getting used to the triggers, etc.) and the money spent still ended up being less than if I had bought a more pedigreed brand. I ended up taking mine apart to lube and de burr mostly so I would know how everything worked but the results of that small amount of "tuning" were amazing!
Blue
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VooDooSteve..... you mentioned living in a very rural area, then in your last post mentioned "large, aggressive pests feasting on pets, chickens and ducks".....that leaves my mind to wonder ?.... an air rifle MAY not be the best choice of weapons for eradication of said pests. ???
I think most all of us that buy lower cost air rifles hope for the best when we unpack them, sometimes it works out, other times not so well. If you set your expectations too high,, the disappointment is tougher to accept.
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Pyramid Air -Refirb. Benjamin Discovery and a Benjamin pump. They come up for sale all the time and I think you will be pleased. Shoots like a powder burner and accurate to 50 yards. Trigger is good not great but can be replaced. For another $150 you can go Marauder .25 with a match grade trigger and barrel that will quietly kill um out to 80 no problem.
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Return it and get a PCP gun... you won't ever be sorry for that.
In my opinion NO pellet rifle should have recoil. I had a springer once, and while it was very accurate it was super hold sensitive. Not to mention I ruined a decent air rifle scope as the recoil broke the mount screws. I returned it; got a PCP gun and never looked back. Best of luck to ya.
Come on to the Dark Side....... we have cookies :-)
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Colorider, If I may ask, which PCP did you settle on?
I got the hatsan at44 in 22cal. Reasoning was the price point, a repeater, trigger reviews, and great out of the box performance reviews. Have not shot it a lot, but so far I am impressed. The Quattro trigger is outstanding IMHO. It is loud, so I have a ldc on its way. Stock is very hollow sounding, but some spray expanding foam solved that. So far I am very thrilled to going the pcp route. I can get my 3300 psi scuba tank filled down the road for 5 bucks.
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Chinese airguns are junk period, that's why they need so much work (IMO), and at $200 that's pretty much what you will get a chinese gun. As of right now, I'm having trouble with one of my china airguns too, problem after problem keeps popping up, and this is with new parts, So I know the feeling.
Are you referring to Chinese made Springers only, or all Chinese made air rifles?
I have to say I don't agree with your first sentence, but I respect your point of view. I've got a BAM B50 that I've put over 2000 pellets through so far, and no issues. Not a single problem encountered. My rifle is fully stock without any mods or tunings. It's crazy accurate, and has been since the very first shot. The only complaint I have about this pellet rifle, is that it is louder than I would like it to be.
If you referring to Springers in particular, you may have a point. Maybe it's the high recoil that exposes the poor quality control.
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Chinese airguns are junk period, that's why they need so much work (IMO), and at $200 that's pretty much what you will get a chinese gun. As of right now, I'm having trouble with one of my china airguns too, problem after problem keeps popping up, and this is with new parts, So I know the feeling.
I agree. I bought five China springers, some used, some new. Four needed a significant amount of work to get them to shoot well and the fifth was so bad I sent it back. I can't say I was disappointed because I bought them all with the intent that they would be projects. It was frustration, fun and the intended learning experience. I shot all four yesterday and I'm happy with the performance. All the problems were due to poor quality control in manufacturing and all the guns were under $200 new. You can guess which ones I'm talking about by looking at the list of air rifles below.
Of all these guns the ones that didn't have manufacturing defects were 25+ years old, the pumpers or German made. I have a Vortek kit to go into the Diana 34 but I have a real bad "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" complex so the kit is gathering dust. If you want a good spring piston air rifle that'll make you happy without a lot of futzing and tinkering buy European and plan on spending more than $200. Maybe much more. You'll still need to expect a break-in period for it to settle down.
Jon
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Chinese airguns are junk period, that's why they need so much work (IMO), and at $200 that's pretty much what you will get a chinese gun. As of right now, I'm having trouble with one of my china airguns too, problem after problem keeps popping up, and this is with new parts, So I know the feeling.
I agree. I bought five China springers, some used, some new. Four needed a significant amount of work to get them to shoot well and the fifth was so bad I sent it back. I can't say I was disappointed because I bought them all with the intent that they would be projects. It was frustration, fun and the intended learning experience. I shot all four yesterday and I'm happy with the performance. All the problems were due to poor quality control in manufacturing and all the guns were under $200 new. You can guess which ones I'm talking about by looking at the list of air rifles below.
Of all these guns the ones that didn't have manufacturing defects were the pumpers or German made. I have a Vortek kit to go into the Diana 34 but I have a real bad "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" complex so the kit is gathering dust. If you want a good spring piston air rifle that'll make you happy without a lot of futzing and tinkering buy European and plan on spending more than $200. Maybe much more. You'll still need to expect a break-in period for it to settle down.
Jon
Jon
It has to be the recoil that is shaking these guns apart, and exposing lapses in quality control. I got rid of the Springer and went the PCP route. I'm much happier for it.
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A lot of times, a person will drop $300 bucks or more on a .22lr, but when it comes to air guns it has to be cheap, otherwise you can buy a real gun. Or so the logic goes.
And there are a lot of us who will not spend $300 for a .22 lr much better to get an old one for around $50 at a garage sale. I find the older ones always shoot better. Plus I would rather spend the $300 on an air rifle, just so much more fun than a .22lr Now if I could just find a Marauder at the garage sale...lol
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A lot of times, a person will drop $300 bucks or more on a .22lr, but when it comes to air guns it has to be cheap, otherwise you can buy a real gun. Or so the logic goes.
And there are a lot of us who will not spend $300 for a .22 lr much better to get an old one for around $50 at a garage sale. I find the older ones always shoot better. Plus I would rather spend the $300 on an air rifle, just so much more fun than a .22lr Now if I could just find a Marauder at the garage sale...lol
Hmm... Too bad we can't find R11s and HW95s at yard sales for $50 :P
I think it's all a sign of the times honestly. I mean, think about the Marlin 60 .22 that people by out of yard sales. They do so because they've been around since the 60s and have sold over 11 million models, and were so well made that most of them are still great shooters today. In fact ever since Remington's acquisition of Marlin, they have changed manufacturing processes and people are now actually going to buy the old Marlins because they are better than the new ones. A lot of the times you wind up with a "project gun" but with a little steel wool and some solvent you end up with a gun that shoots just as well as the one out of the store, but also being much better made. It's all about the $150 pricepoint for the gun too. It cost the same $150 in 1972 as it does today, yet they can't keep up the same quality of manufacturing without raising the price--so the option is to either cut costs or lose money.
Some companies will take the hit and lose the money and still produce a good product, but you can't expect them to do that forever. I don't know the history of the air gun market, but my guess is that the consumer has expected to pay under $200 for a long time, and so the manufacturers know they're not likely to go above that pricepoint.
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My experience with a Benjamin trail np. Purchased last year. I think it was $225 from PA.
Trigger was almost unusable. Gritty, no feel whatsoever. Barrel crown looked like it was cut by a 5yr old using a rock he found in the street. Piston seal looked like a badger had chewed on it. The burrs and other rough edges on the gun were horrible. Barrel pivots were sloppy at best. Inside the barrel had more sludge in it then a port o potty. Breach seal oring was buggered up.
Best part of the rifle was the sling that came w it.
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I have had very good luck with guns under $200. I shoot with a group of guys (6 of us) that have 15 or so springers and gas break barrels of many different brands that all have performed well. I think one or two may be over $200. No problems with target shooting up to 40 yards or so. Granted, some need some maintenance and adjusting but not total overhauls to be effective and fun.
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My experience with a Benjamin trail np. Purchased last year. I think it was $225 from PA.
Trigger was almost unusable. Gritty, no feel whatsoever. Barrel crown looked like it was cut by a 5yr old using a rock he found in the street. Piston seal looked like a badger had chewed on it. The burrs and other rough edges on the gun were horrible. Barrel pivots were sloppy at best. Inside the barrel had more sludge in it then a port o potty. Breach seal oring was buggered up.
Best part of the rifle was the sling that came w it.
Did you send this POJ back ? If more people started demanding refunds instead of putting up with such dismal quality, and if it showed up red on some CFOs bottom line, then just maybe some of these manufacturers would get a message.
Also, the value of US $ is not what it used to be, and maybe these days $150 can only buy you a DIY kit of unfinished air gun parts to be assembled by the buyer. :(
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I haven't run into any Gun that would not group under 1.5" at even 35 yards out of the box, untuned.
Several Chinese guns have even taken the necks off of bottles at 75 yards after learning how to shoot them.
???
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Learning a springer isn't as hard as you state, I shoot 500 to 1000 shots a week (sometimes more). Who is practicing? I just sit, drink coffee, shoot targets, smoke cigarettes, and the most fun part is smoking pests in my back yard. :)
I'm envious; I'm lucky to get 500 shots per MONTH, and that's usually stuffed into one good weekend when my mother in law takes my daughter for a few days. And that's assuming nothing around the house has broken and in need of repair, or the deck doesn't need staining, or the garden doesn't need watering, or firewood doesn't need stacking, or I get called in to work OT, etc, etc.....
It's hard to get a lot of quality shooting in when you have an energetic 4-yr old running around the backyard. But on the plus side, she's showing interest in shooting "Daddy's guns", so there's light at the end of the tunnel :-)
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Learning a springer isn't as hard as you state, I shoot 500 to 1000 shots a week (sometimes more). Who is practicing? I just sit, drink coffee, shoot targets, smoke cigarettes, and the most fun part is smoking pests in my back yard. :)
I'm envious; I'm lucky to get 500 shots per MONTH, and that's usually stuffed into one good weekend when my mother in law takes my daughter for a few days. And that's assuming nothing around the house has broken and in need of repair, or the deck doesn't need staining, or the garden doesn't need watering, or firewood doesn't need stacking, or I get called in to work OT, etc, etc.....
It's hard to get a lot of quality shooting in when you have an energetic 4-yr old running around the backyard. But on the plus side, she's showing interest in shooting "Daddy's guns", so there's light at the end of the tunnel :-)
My daughter shoots better than her ex-boyfriend. :) My youngest son is a natural. I guess I am lucky to be retired (disabled), have young children, do not have a honey do list, and my only job is to sit drink coffee, smoke cigarettes, and shoot targets from 20 to 90 yards. Life is good! :)
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do not have a honey do list
I hate you.
;)
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I can only recommend 2 guns for a beginner & both are out of your price range. The first is a D-34 with the T06 trigger, the other I have never owned but I own it's twin brother (R11) and that is the R9/HW95 with the Rekord Trigger. Both guns will last you a long time with good accuracy, and the triggers are nice.
I agree! Diana 34 at just a smidgeon over $200. Quality, accuracy, TO6 match trigger. You will NEVER LOOK BACK!
Bill in SC
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Chinese airguns are junk period, that's why they need so much work (IMO), and at $200 that's pretty much what you will get a chinese gun. As of right now, I'm having trouble with one of my china airguns too, problem after problem keeps popping up, and this is with new parts, So I know the feeling.
Are you referring to Chinese made Springers only, or all Chinese made air rifles?
I have to say I don't agree with your first sentence, but I respect your point of view. I've got a BAM B50 that I've put over 2000 pellets through so far, and no issues. Not a single problem encountered. My rifle is fully stock without any mods or tunings. It's crazy accurate, and has been since the very first shot. The only complaint I have about this pellet rifle, is that it is louder than I would like it to be.
If you referring to Springers in particular, you may have a point. Maybe it's the high recoil that exposes the poor quality control.
I guess it comes down to luck of the draw with china guns. I know there are good ones out there, but there Q.C. is so bad it's like they come unfinished.
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You can get a lot of little single shot 22lr rifle, in that budget. Much better tool for "all" critters that come around the farm. Use the newer "subsonic" .22 bullets, and you don't have the noise, or long "downrange danger" issues, to deal with. Much more power than air rifles, without a lot of money.
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It's a shame you spent $200 three times and for only $75 more you could have had an RWS34 with an outstanding T06 trigger.
At the end of the day the Chinese guns aren't trying to compete with quality air rifles and everyone needs to understand this. For many years Beeman imported very nice break barrel spring rifles. Most Americans saw break barrel spring rifles as the cream of the crop but way more money than they would pay for a "BB gun"/"kid's gun". Then came along companies that figured out they could have break barrel air rifles made in China real cheap and make a bunch of money. So they did. And it worked. Americans went to Walmart and saw break barrel spring rifles for 1/2 the price of what the expected. So they bought them. I don't know how many times I have heard people say "this is one of those good ones" in reference to the break barrel action. Up until that point most guns Americans bought were cheap Crossman/Daisy pumps, you know "kid's guns". So to pump up the sales more they make up velocities and say this new rifle will shoot 1400fps. Now Americans think they are getting a .22lr for $150 they can shoot in their back yard. The sad deal is most people buy them, shoot them a few times, realize they don't shoot good and give up on them. Their thought is it is a "kid's gun", and all pellet guns are junk.
Just my observations and my opinion. I have no doubt a good one doesn't sneak by once in a while or they can't be made to shoot better. I am just saying at this point in time they are not in any way trying to compete with AA or Weirauch from a quality standpoint. It's not in there business model.
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The Ruger Airhawk line of rifles, (Chinese)....has a very good history, and now they are at cheaper prices,.... as it's not the "New Hot Chick" anymore. They All go through this. If I were interested in a D34, (or any breakbarrel), I'd snag one of these. Justa sayin'
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You can get a lot of little single shot 22lr rifle, in that budget. Much better tool for "all" critters that come around the farm. Use the newer "subsonic" .22 bullets, and you don't have the noise, or long "downrange danger" issues, to deal with. Much more power than air rifles, without a lot of money.
I have a cheapy Rossi 22/410...and it is very accurate, problem is the availability of rounds, scarce as hens teeth around here......just found some at a big gun shop here , but felt like a pothead as they were selling them in baggies $10/100.....
Fellas thanks for the suggestions and I'm checking them all out real good too, been looking at the Umarex octane as well, and I really don't mind doing a bit of work on one, but I hate having to work on something new just to get it to do it's intended purpose, now customizing or tricking out is a different story.....and based upon what I was told in our phone conversation......one companies products got put on my do not buy list......and it seems to me that they would actually save money by taking a little extra care with the quality, a little extra care would mean less returns and more happy customers...
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Just my observations and my opinion. I have no doubt a good one doesn't sneak by once in a while or they can't be made to shoot better. I am just saying at this point in time they are not in any way trying to compete with AA or Weirauch from a quality standpoint. It's not in there business model.
This. I agree it's just a different market, and clearly there is a much bigger market out there for the $200 and under pellet rifle.
I don't agree that all Chinese guns are junk. I suppose it depends on expectations and use. The fact is there are many Chinese guns out there that perform very well for people and they have many great reviews. It does seem their QC has issues and some come out as complete lemons. But dealing with a reputable company with good customer service (like Crosman) can resolve that.
It's really no different than product offerings in any market.
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Much of the trouble with Chinese spring guns lies in the assembly at the factory. I bought a $65 .22 cal. Quest on clearance just to tear down and learn to work on. They are great for this purpose. It was over lubed inside and the piston seal was torn up from the sharp edges in the compression tube. It never would have shot well assembled like this. I got a Tarantula spring $17, Tesla Gamo seal $9.95, and lubes from AIR Rifle Headquarters. After learning all I could from this forum and others, I cleaned, took off the sharp edges in the tube, lubed and assembled the gun. It now shoots 720 fps with 14.3g pellets, no spring twang, and is as accurate, with open sights, at 20-25yds as my RWS 34. I liked it so much I put it in a better beech stock from a Gamo 440 $30. The plastic sights are junk though. I replaced them with iron sights from a black powder gun that I was not using. For about $60-$70 spent extra I have a great shooting gun. It was the learning experience on a cheap gun that gave me the confidence to work on better guns. By all means, clean the barrel well. Could not believe the thick grime that came out of a new Quest.
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Just my observations and my opinion. I have no doubt a good one doesn't sneak by once in a while or they can't be made to shoot better. I am just saying at this point in time they are not in any way trying to compete with AA or Weirauch from a quality standpoint. It's not in there business model.
My point exactly...
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I don't know if you fellas seen my other post yet, but I picked up a crosman model 1 for $8 at a flea mkt, , and it looks like I've wasted about $242 + time and a ton of pellets on the gas gun, to say the mod1 blows the nitro venom away in the accuracy dept is a huge understatement, heck the mod 1 is open sights too, so hopefully the new piston seal fixes the venom, but in any event it will be sold as I have reach my BS quotient with this gun and the proceeds will be put towards a better, more accurate performer.... You know pellet guns shouldn't need this much work and ability to shoot....
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Steve. I think you're under the illusion that you are gonna get .22lr sub 1" performance, at 50yds, from a "breakbarrel production" airgun that costs under $150.00, at it's introduction price. These cheaper guns will shoot better, with a good shooter, of course...but they "are what they are". You could buy older rifles, much better, within your budget. If you know what you are looking for. As a newbie to air rifles; please don't "throw the baby out with the bathwater".
Again... If you're unhappy with airgunning... There are some very good subsonic .22 rounds that are air rifle quiet and very hunter/target accurate...WITH higher FPE! The money you're complaining about, woulda bought a bunch of them. I wish you well.
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What gave you the idea that I was unhappy with air gunning? I've always had an airgun of some sort since I was a kid, i usually have a great time shooting these guns but truly,it's the gun I'm unhappy with, I could have sent it back but after reading about the trigger work, and a couple other fairly simple to do things, well, I did them, and they didn't help the accuracy at all,and I wasn't going to send it back after I'd been into it because that would be dishonest, and I figure by the inconsistency it's the piston seal which I am purchasing from Crosman, sure I could have whined till they sent me one, but once I took that trigger out, the gun was my baby, I just feel as though the quality of these hunting advertised guns shouldn't be so shoddy, and no I don't expect 1" @ 50, 3@25 would be sufficient for a hunting quality gun, and if that was the standard 1"@50 might be attainable through custom work, accessories and practice..... Luck of the draw accuracy should never be acceptable with any weapon. , am I wrong for thinking this?
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In short. Your post #42,,,about wasted money and time/pellets Steve. Sounded pretty sad.
Bottom line is, that you get what you pay $150 for. A good $250 Gamo CFR Fixed barrel, will give a much happier experience at 50 yards. It's a 1" area player, as is. Custom GRT drop in trigger only costs $30, if you like.
Lightweight breakbarrels (by design) require practice and attn. to hold detail. And they all have they're own likes. Wish we could give everyone a "goto" manual for them ;)
There truly are some good older breakbarrels that aren't the "hot girl" anymore. You can get good "bang for the buck" deals on them. Just gotta know which ones they are. Truly...most don't know them, so when they come up, buy it.
Airguns are Airguns as far as power goes...ya know. I hope you stick with it.
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Bullit, I currently own an old b3, a Daisy 126, a Hatsan Striker Edge, a Crosman Fury 2, the Model 1, and the nitro venom dusk, I can't help how I feel about the venom, I have the most money, time, and effort invested in it and it is the worst one accuracy wise, and that is pretty sad, I've had other springers but never a gas piston gun, and I was expecting it to be a better gun as I gave the most for it,was I wrong in expecting a higher priced gun shoot and be of better quality than the companies cheaper offerings? I believe most people would expect to pay more for better things, that's what did, but evidently I got a $)((# for my efforts....... I will stick with it as this is not the first $)((# I've stepped in and I'll just wipe it off and go on...just like I did with the other turds...
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Totally off subject, but sometimes the barrels are bad. Just trying to help....
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Totally off subject, but sometimes the barrels are bad. Just trying to help....
You're right on topic. Bad barrels are way too common. My first Chinese made springer (the Fury) had a very bad barrel. Everything I did to it helped but it never grouped consistently well until I replaced the barrel. The first Air Hawk I bought had a very bad barrel. By then I had enough experience to catch it right away and exchanged it for another Air Hawk with a pretty good barrel. The B3 has a marginally bad barrel but it shoots acceptably well with the right pellet. My math says that 3 out of 5 Chinese made springers I bought had bad barrels. The good ones were the 2006 Remington Summit and the second Air Hawk. Both of those had other serious manufacturing defects I corrected.
Any time I began to think problems with accuracy were due to the shooter (me), I got out the Diana 45 or 34 and after a couple dozen shots I knew to look for something else wrong.
Jon
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Ditto on what a lot of posts are saying, and I know you said something about short on cash ..... but I learned a while ago, you get what you pay for, and $200 buys you disappointment and inaccuracy ...... as a matter of fact $200 doesn't even get you a high quality scope today!
Save up ..... put your money into quality once ..... if you can save up some more after that, buy more quality. Never could understand why some people spend a thousand on 10 pieces of junk? $1000 will get you a really nice rifle.
My Humble Opinion
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I agree on the bad barrel comments that's why I tried to purchase a replacement, see my post on the previous page as to why they could not sell me one... Fellas I never said anything about being short on cash, heck I've got thousands of dollars in trad bows in my shop, I build them too, and I'm sitting here looking at 15 custom brushless RC cars and trucks, and outside the window behind them is my flame throwing hot rod, money is not the problem... Quality is and what has become acceptable seems to be too, I know $150 bucks isn't a lot in the grand sceme of airguns, but it is to a whole lot of people, I have never met even one person in my 54 years that has paid more than $100 bucks on an air rifle...heck my friends think I'm nuts for paying what I did, and after seeing what I'm going through to make it accurate...they also think I'm foolish, do you fellas think any one of them are going to run right out and get one? Now how many others are watching their friends going through the same thing? Now i'd just bet though that if these low cost guns shot better a heck of a lot more people would be buying them... And keeping them too!
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You know, I didn't come on here to argue or be a jerk, I came in hope of understanding what I view as a problem, seriously are you fellas trying to tell me that I, and others should have to spend $400.....$500....$600 or even more to be able to consistantly hit a 3" target at 25 yards with an advertised hunting air rifle? Come on now seriously?.........I know what quality is and that money buys a great deal of it if you spend enough, but this gun is far from the cheapest one out there, and it should have acceptable accuracy as a starting point.....I should not have to spend a bunch of cash to get to that starting point, I should be able to spend that cash on upgrades to make one better from that starting point......Now I will be going out and spending 4 or 5 hundred bucks on a better, I hope, air gun because I like nice, cool stuff, but I purchased these guns to keep in the shop, like a barn gun if you will, I didn't want to spend a ton of money on one, I just needed a decent tool I could take hunting that had enough power and accuracy to dispatch critters humanely.......I will change out the piston seal, and try to find a replacement barrel and change that too, but that will be as far as I take this particular gun.......the next one though will hopefully be a different story, and I'll probably put a bunch of money in it because I choose to and not because I have to........We should not have to do their job......
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You know, I didn't come on here to argue or be a jerk, I came in hope of understanding what I view as a problem, seriously are you fellas trying to tell me that I, and others should have to spend $400.....$500....$600 or even more to be able to consistantly hit a 3" target at 25 yards with an advertised hunting air rifle? Come on now seriously?.........I know what quality is and that money buys a great deal of it if you spend enough, but this gun is far from the cheapest one out there, and it should have acceptable accuracy as a starting point.....I should not have to spend a bunch of cash to get to that starting point, I should be able to spend that cash on upgrades to make one better from that starting point......Now I will be going out and spending 4 or 5 hundred bucks on a better, I hope, air gun because I like nice, cool stuff, but I purchased these guns to keep in the shop, like a barn gun if you will, I didn't want to spend a ton of money on one, I just needed a decent tool I could take hunting that had enough power and accuracy to dispatch critters humanely.......I will change out the piston seal, and try to find a replacement barrel and change that too, but that will be as far as I take this particular gun.......the next one though will hopefully be a different story, and I'll probably put a bunch of money in it because I choose to and not because I have to........We should not have to do their job......
My Stoeger X20 in .22 at $159 will consistently hit a THREE inch target at 25 yards ALL DAY LONG. That size target at that range is not a huge requirement. That said, I reiterate, the German Diana 34 at a tad over your target price of $200 will hit smaller targets consistently at that range. The quality jump from the $200 and less Chinese guns and the Diana 34 is immediately noticed. You DON'T have to spend $400+ to get a TACK DRIVING, HIGH QUALITY airgun.
Bill in SC
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The Ruger Airhawk line of rifles, (Chinese)....has a very good history, and now they are at cheaper prices,.... as it's not the "New Hot Chick" anymore. They All go through this. If I were interested in a D34, (or any breakbarrel), I'd snag one of these. Justa sayin'
Like this one? amazon.com/Ruger-Hawk-Combo-Rifle-Large/dp/B002N45PQU
or
pyramydair.com/s/m/Diana_RWS_34_Breakbarrel_Rifle_T06_Trigger/402
airgundepot.com/rws34.html
There truly are some good older breakbarrels that aren't the "hot girl" anymore. You can get good "bang for the buck" deals on them. Just gotta know which ones they are. Truly...most don't know them, so when they come up, buy it.
Airguns are Airguns as far as power goes...ya know. I hope you stick with it.
Any others in the "older hot chick" category?
It seems it is also like the Ford/Chevy/Dodge/Ram preferences. All are good, but for some purchasers the one little thing that makes them better for them makes them better for all time -- "I'll never by a !$#@$ again!". I've had Ford and Dodge and the family had Chevy, all in 1/2 ton. Each was OK at the time but obviously needs at the time (features; price) made the change. Couldn't say the same thing for larger pickups because we didn't get those. Gamo, RWS, Crosman, etc. are all around because they fit needs somewhere.
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Totally off subject, but sometimes the barrels are bad. Just trying to help....
+1!
My first airgun was/is a Gamo, Bone Collector. Terrible barrel droop. Got a mount to compensate and it is fine now.
Shooting styles between the a springer and PCP are very different.
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You know, I didn't come on here to argue or be a jerk, I came in hope of understanding what I view as a problem, seriously are you fellas trying to tell me that I, and others should have to spend $400.....$500....$600 or even more to be able to consistantly hit a 3" target at 25 yards with an advertised hunting air rifle? Come on now seriously?.........I know what quality is and that money buys a great deal of it if you spend enough, but this gun is far from the cheapest one out there, and it should have acceptable accuracy as a starting point.....I should not have to spend a bunch of cash to get to that starting point, I should be able to spend that cash on upgrades to make one better from that starting point......Now I will be going out and spending 4 or 5 hundred bucks on a better, I hope, air gun because I like nice, cool stuff, but I purchased these guns to keep in the shop, like a barn gun if you will, I didn't want to spend a ton of money on one, I just needed a decent tool I could take hunting that had enough power and accuracy to dispatch critters humanely.......I will change out the piston seal, and try to find a replacement barrel and change that too, but that will be as far as I take this particular gun.......the next one though will hopefully be a different story, and I'll probably put a bunch of money in it because I choose to and not because I have to........We should not have to do their job......
You're exactly right. But these poor quality air rifles keep selling so nobody is going to change anything. I see the consumer has three choices. One, keep returning the defective products until a good one is found, or two, accept the poor quality and learn to tune it up yourself. The third choice is the one you seem to have elected. Buy a quality air rifle probably made in England or Germany and enjoy owning a high quality product that does it's intended job.
Jon
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You know, I didn't come on here to argue or be a jerk, I came in hope of understanding what I view as a problem, seriously are you fellas trying to tell me that I, and others should have to spend $400.....$500....$600 or even more to be able to consistantly hit a 3" target at 25 yards with an advertised hunting air rifle? Come on now seriously?.........I know what quality is and that money buys a great deal of it if you spend enough, but this gun is far from the cheapest one out there, and it should have acceptable accuracy as a starting point.....I should not have to spend a bunch of cash to get to that starting point, I should be able to spend that cash on upgrades to make one better from that starting point......Now I will be going out and spending 4 or 5 hundred bucks on a better, I hope, air gun because I like nice, cool stuff, but I purchased these guns to keep in the shop, like a barn gun if you will, I didn't want to spend a ton of money on one, I just needed a decent tool I could take hunting that had enough power and accuracy to dispatch critters humanely.......I will change out the piston seal, and try to find a replacement barrel and change that too, but that will be as far as I take this particular gun.......the next one though will hopefully be a different story, and I'll probably put a bunch of money in it because I choose to and not because I have to........We should not have to do their job......
Very well said Steve.
And I thought it was obvious you weren't a jerk or looking to argue.
You made a good point that should be discussed.
How many people went thru the same thing and didn't bother finding this place for some help???
Many $150 air guns sitting in garages and perspective new air gunners totally turned off to the hobby??
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You know, I didn't come on here to argue or be a jerk, I came in hope of understanding what I view as a problem, seriously are you fellas trying to tell me that I, and others should have to spend $400.....$500....$600 or even more to be able to consistantly hit a 3" target at 25 yards with an advertised hunting air rifle? Come on now seriously?.........I know what quality is and that money buys a great deal of it if you spend enough, but this gun is far from the cheapest one out there, and it should have acceptable accuracy as a starting point.....I should not have to spend a bunch of cash to get to that starting point, I should be able to spend that cash on upgrades to make one better from that starting point......Now I will be going out and spending 4 or 5 hundred bucks on a better, I hope, air gun because I like nice, cool stuff, but I purchased these guns to keep in the shop, like a barn gun if you will, I didn't want to spend a ton of money on one, I just needed a decent tool I could take hunting that had enough power and accuracy to dispatch critters humanely.......I will change out the piston seal, and try to find a replacement barrel and change that too, but that will be as far as I take this particular gun.......the next one though will hopefully be a different story, and I'll probably put a bunch of money in it because I choose to and not because I have to........We should not have to do their job......
You're exactly right. But these poor quality air rifles keep selling so nobody is going to change anything. I see the consumer has three choices. One, keep returning the defective products until a good one is found, or two, accept the poor quality and learn to tune it up yourself. The third choice is the one you seem to have elected. Buy a quality air rifle probably made in England or Germany and enjoy owning a high quality product that does it's intended job.
Jon
I like the third choice !! I just wish I could afford the one I want... LOL... ;D
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I think the cheaper, entry level airguns have a solid place in our sport and always will. Not everyone has the ability or desire to spend a large sum of money on an airgun, especially as a beginner. Many beginner issues with airgun shooting will be present no matter what the price of the gun is and it makes more sense to work them out on a less expensive model. From my own personal experience, I started with Gamo and improved the quality of my purchases from there. To be honest, had I started with my HW30S from the beginning, I may have only owned one airgun. It just does so many things right for me that I wind up shooting it more than anything else. Just think of all the fun I would have missed!
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this is meant with respect....I'm afraid to tell somebody the unbuttered truth to their face and that's all this is.
all in all, I think you're out of line and here's why...
the big thing here is CHINESE...it's carved up and pinned together tossed in a box and to be shipped out and put on a shelf....YOU know that already, I don't have to ask..
if the box says made in China, what more do you need to know?...Caveat Emptor, it's your butt..
get away from Chinese and their price competitive cousins and you enter another order of... well....order
do you buy brushless motors and ESCs and Lipo Batteries from China or do you pony up more $ for a lower trash factor?..transmitters receivers servos bearings?...
don't even bother to answer I only ask to drive the point home....you pony up for the good stuff..
this hobby is exactly the same thing...you can make something sweet out of asian base stock but you hav eto be GOOD to do it every time....
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Thanks for your honesty, and you are exactly right about the Chinese rc stuff, most everything I have is powered by Castle mambas, Novak, Trinity or spec'd stock in the slash, I do however have Flysky Gt3b Chinese radios which are very good and in one crawler there is a C spd control, which is great for just playing, but I do understand what your saying, and I'll get em sorted out and pass them on to my kids when I upgrade to something decent, then trick it out like I do everything else, but I'm done polishing turds....
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I, and the guys I shoot with, must be extremely lucky. There are about 15 different "Chinese" guns represented in our 'shooting group' and all of them perform very well.
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Well, You fellas are sure luckier than I am, Just noticed today that my barrel is bent down....Not barrel droop....Bent....i believe it's happened a little bit at a time as I was cocking it, because I had to keep raising my crosshairs on the scope.....
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Since you never wanna state which rifle you are specifically talking about, I'll make a simple engineering statement. The Chinese engineers are very proficient, at "reverse engineering" a sample that the receive. Pretty Thorough.
You would really have to try...to pemanantly bend a new steel barrel, in even a 35-40# cocking effort...unless you just laid on it, after it was properly cocked. Doing that overpowering of the leverage, would also stress the barrel attachment, the pivot bolt/breech assy, and could also change your lockup...and problems with consistency.
Like the other guys say... Why buy cheap guns and then complain? Especially after doing homework? Tell us which specific rifle you are having problems with. There's lotsa good experienced guys here, that can help. Just gotta let them know the rifle.... I know they'll help you find where the problem lies. Good Folks! ;)
Again. 50-70yds from a cheap Chicom B/barrel rifle is a real stretched and unrealistic expectation.
Heck.... IF that was true...we'd ALL have them! ;)