GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: angrytimes on July 23, 2014, 01:43:40 AM
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Hi there shooters!
I have been giving some serious thought to joining the darkside. I currently have only one gun. A tx200 .22 FAC. It is a great gun that I enjoy very much. I still feel a pcp would have something to offer me. I do not intend on collecting many pcp rifles and would hopefully say that the pcp I do purchase will be my last air gun purchase for a very long time (touch wood!).
I am a big fan of the the Air Arms products and I think I would want to purchase another. I live in NZ and prices get massively inflated here and many guns simply are not available but there is an air arms supplier that has good stocks at almost reasonable prices...
The use of the gun is for hunting only. I shoot mostly rabbits but also magpies, pest birds, ducks, possums, weasels, and maybe something a bit bigger like a wallaby if it was in range.
I am tossing between the
a. .22cal S510 carbine FAC
b. .25cal S510 rifle FAC
The shot count does not bother me as I only let of a max of 10 shots in one hunt (shoot around the farm from home so can always come home and charge her again no problem).
Both guns have advantages and disadvantages in my opinion.
The .25cal rifle is more powerful (35-40fllb), gets more shots off, less effected by wind but also has more pronounced trajectory from slower pellet travel (800fps) and I worry about the weight with a big scope like a sidewinder. Would the weight of a s510 with sidewinder scope be ok for field use?
The .22 carbine is very lightweight so I could afford to put a heavier scope on it such as a sidewinder tac without making it overly heavy, but is also louder, less shots, less powerful and also less powerful than the full length .22. I also spotlight at night and stealth is a concern. Adding a moderator will come at additional cost, and close the weight gap of the carbine and rifle.
I would like to push my engagement ranges out as far as practically possible and would like get a bipod that I can attach for sniping. What is the usable range of the .25? Is it less than a .22 due to velocity and drop or more than due to down range energy?
Bottom line: if you could only have one hunting PCP out of the .22 carbine s510 or the .25 s510 rifle what would you choose? Cheers for reading and I hope to hear some good discussion!
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.25 for sure ;D
Does the S510 .25 really only go 800 with a 25gr King? Even if it does, I'd still prefer that over a 900-950 .22 pellet. Because 800 fps isn't as 'rainbow arc' as people think. I'm zeroed at 50 yards with a 790 fps .22 and can consistently hit starlings and other small game at 80+ yards (minimal wind ;D). So effective range is good w/ 800 fps and a good pellet (JSB in my case). Even more so with a good .25 pellet.
If using a bipod, your Sidewinder will be no prob on either, no need to shoot offhand/unsupported at long ranges anyways. This is your sniper! Sling and bipod it and just go about to different spots deploying the pod either prone or sitting. Bigger scopes are better imo.
But either way you won't go wrong as both guns get superb reviews and accuracy. .25 is definitely the way to go if you want to shoot longer range/hunting and more variety of game/pests.
You'll probably end up with both someday, darkside rules 8)
Edit- Forgot to add I'd choose the .25 if I only had to pick one hunting pcp. A lot more useful in hunting.
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.25 all the way......come to the darkside 8)
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You are going to end up with both guns :) the darkside doesn't allow for half measures.
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I was just going to get one pcp. I started looking at a 2nd one before the first even shipped. Good luck restraining yourself! lol
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Contrary to others thoughts ... the .22 cal ;D
I shoot mostly rabbits but also magpies, pest birds, ducks, possums, weasels, and maybe something a bit bigger like a wallaby if it was in range.
ALL of these easily killed with a .22 !!
The 25 will hit harder but be WAY OVERKILL for all but the bigger game IMO.
.22 will shoot flatter, penetrate deeper and has FAR MORE choice in pellet styles and weights than the .25
Choose wisely ! .... bigger in not always better :-\
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.22 is more than sufficient as stated above. cost of .22 is much more tolerable as well.
Josh
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.25 all the way given you wide range of small to medium game, who cares about overkill on birds, but on possums and wallaby you will want that extra FPE.
Matt
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The force was to strong. I could not resist. 2289g to 2400 CO2 carbine to PCP.
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Contrary to others thoughts ... the .22 cal ;D
I shoot mostly rabbits but also magpies, pest birds, ducks, possums, weasels, and maybe something a bit bigger like a wallaby if it was in range.
ALL of these easily killed with a .22 !!
The 25 will hit harder but be WAY OVERKILL for all but the bigger game IMO.
.22 will shoot flatter, penetrate deeper and has FAR MORE choice in pellet styles and weights than the .25
Choose wisely ! .... bigger in not always better :-\
OP, while all of what I quoted here is true, I would still advise getting the .25 rifle. You say it's more accurate and gets more shots per fill than the 22... that's all I needed to hear, right there. Get that one.
The .22 will shoot flatter, but only because of higher muzzle velocity. If you add power to the .25 to match speed, it will shoot just as flat as the .22 (more so, probably, because .25 pellet BCs are generally higher than those of .22 pellets), so it's not really a concern. And plus, you just run the ballistics through ChairGun, and you have the arc plotted right in front of you. Problem solved.
Someone mentioned that it costs more money to shoot the .25 than it does to shoot the .22. While this is true, it's not exactly a bank-breaking difference, so I wouldn't worry about that much either.
Basically the only true downside to the .25 is that the pellet selection is quite a bit smaller than in .22, so you do run the chance of trying everything you can find in .25, just to discover that your new rifle doesn't care much for any of them.
Good luck, and have fun!
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I would suggest going with the .25 cal for its flexibility and growing popularity. You may not ever want to sell it but if you do, I suspect there would be more demand for a used .25 than a used .22 of the same rifle make and model.
The .25 is the new .22. The .22 is the new .177. As major manufactures keep introducing more and more .25 cal (and over) guns, I have noticed .177 variants no longer being offered. At least in the US PCP market.
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Hey guys awesome advice there. I believe I will go for the .25. All this has made my mind up.
Just out of interest does anyone know what sort of energy is require to neutralise a rabbit with a centre of mass body shot? I know a subsonic .22lr pushing 40grain hollow points at 1050fps (98ftlb) will do the trick but wondered if say a 38ftlb .25 would be sufficient? I have only ever head shot rabbits so far and I am more than happy to continue this way but for some shots I have not pulled the trigger as the headshot has not presented itself but I wonder with a .25cal pcp could I have take a body shot say from behind into the middle of it's back and still get a clean kill? I will always strive for headshots either way as it sure is satisfying to pull them off and I like the way they pop big backflips hahah
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The force was to strong. I could not resist. 2289g to 2400 CO2 carbine to PCP.
I too have followed the same path to the darkside.....
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I've read that rabbits go down relatively easy.
I'd advise looking at the chairgun trajectories for each gun caliber and input the correct output. You'll see either some nearly non existent curves or at least very little many times. Like under 1-2" difference drop at 100Y depending on pellet with each one being optimized for zero.
The latest version allows you to input wind speed and it'll show drift, too.
My 28 fpe .22 shows pretty close to my 42 fpe .25. I think the 25 will do a little better, wind wise, but not by a whole lot. Maybe an inch at 100Y with an 8 mph breeze. Now if I can only hold still enough (I don't know I do at 50Y???)?
Motorhead does know his stuff and I tend to think we often go overboard that leads us down a common path that isn't always the best.
As always, a spinner does mystical things with added FPE, though ;D
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If you luck out with .25 Cuda's its only 50 cents more for the same amount in .22.
JSB's, well that's a different story :-\
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Hey guys awesome advice there. I believe I will go for the .25. All this has made my mind up.
Just out of interest does anyone know what sort of energy is require to neutralise a rabbit with a centre of mass body shot? I know a subsonic .22lr pushing 40grain hollow points at 1050fps (98ftlb) will do the trick but wondered if say a 38ftlb .25 would be sufficient? I have only ever head shot rabbits so far and I am more than happy to continue this way but for some shots I have not pulled the trigger as the headshot has not presented itself but I wonder with a .25cal pcp could I have take a body shot say from behind into the middle of it's back and still get a clean kill? I will always strive for headshots either way as it sure is satisfying to pull them off and I like the way they pop big backflips hahah
I would guess somewhere at or above 10 ft./lb. on target. It's probably less, but I wouldn't want any less than that, for fear of wounding the animal. I know, according to Ted of Ted's Holdover, you need 4 ft./lb. on target to take squirrels, rabbits, and birds to put them down "with authority." I've seen him take body shots on both of these animals, but I would assume he was referring to headshots with that quote.
Take that as you will... but in reference to the .25, I'd think you would have plenty of energy to take rabbits at 100 yards or more, so long as the gun has the accuracy to take those shots reliably. A JSB King at 850 FPS retains more than 20 ft./lb. at 100 yards, FYI.
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Congratulations on coming over! ! I agree the. 22 will do what you want but the .25 will do more. I think once you have shot a. 25, you will be glad you went with it. I love to hear that"THUMP" when the. 25 pellets hit their target. I love drag racing and big cubic inch motors. Can I do the same with a small block? Sure but it takes more work and it won't have the feel of the big block. Good luck with your choice.
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as to the Rabbit question ...
Cotton tails are Super Fragile and die very easily !!
Jacks are another story all together being SUBSTANTIALLY tougher.
* here a Post i made a couple months ago that brings a bit of relativity to this inquire.
Yesterday AM wife & I spot a Full grown JACK RABBIT munching away in her flower beds .... Wife states GET EM OUT OF THERE !!
So grab the .22 cal Pup M-rod ( Shooting JSB 18.1 @ 870 fps ) and quietly open the slider door, take aim @ 20 yards away taking a broadside body shot.
Snap ... THWOPP and the jack flinches and takes @ 20 hops and stops looking at me obviously in shock of some sort but not falling over either.
Quickly chamber another pellet, take aim now @ 30 yards out broadside again ... Snap ... THWOPP hearing the hit but also seeing dirt fly out behind him as if shot went over his back :o .... load again, actually 2 more taking the shot with same result Snap ... THWOPP dirt flys and the jacks sits there looking at me, ears up, head up but crouching more.
So there I sit looking at the Jack thinking What the heck just happened ?
After about 20-30 seconds after the 4th shot it falls over and does a mild death dance for a few seconds then expires.
Walk over to him and start looking here hit ... 4 shots all within @ 1" right behind the front shoulder mid body mass WITH EXIT WOUNDS other side.
All shots being total pass threws :-\
That range, that power and nearly no kinetic energy transferred ..... darn weirdest kill I have ever experienced.
Moral of the story ... more power does not really help unless the kinetic energy of the projectile is produced IN THE ANIMAL !! by the pellet stopping and NOT sailing on threw.
Just thought you might find this of some interest.
Scott
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Hey guys awesome advice there. I believe I will go for the .25. All this has made my mind up.
Just out of interest does anyone know what sort of energy is require to neutralise a rabbit with a centre of mass body shot? I know a subsonic .22lr pushing 40grain hollow points at 1050fps (98ftlb) will do the trick but wondered if say a 38ftlb .25 would be sufficient? I have only ever head shot rabbits so far and I am more than happy to continue this way but for some shots I have not pulled the trigger as the headshot has not presented itself but I wonder with a .25cal pcp could I have take a body shot say from behind into the middle of it's back and still get a clean kill? I will always strive for headshots either way as it sure is satisfying to pull them off and I like the way they pop big backflips hahah
I put a rabbit down with a boiler room shot at over 35 yards with my 1322. I have a Disco hammer spring, 12" barrel and flat top valve. So any pcp will be more than enough.