GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Diana Airguns => Topic started by: Wild West Shooter on June 28, 2014, 10:24:31 PM
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(http://i60.tinypic.com/m93y89.jpg)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/33eq5hv.jpg)
I was plinking and all of a sudden it froze up, I tried to cock it but it was binding. Ive never fully broken down an air rifle before.
I contacted umarex and they said to ship it to them and that their smith would look at it. I thought it had a lifetime warranty, but the guy I talked to said "consumable parts" like springs seals and "certain other things" are only covered by an 18month warranty. Ive had the rifle about 20 months and have only put about 1000 pellets through it, maybe less. This is the t06 model bought in late 2012 from pyramid air.
I am wondering if any of you fine people could tell me what piece there broke? Its a metal piece. It doesn't look consumable to me? Not after 1000 pellets at least.
I sent these pics to umarex because I don't want to pay shipping both ways and pay their smith and buy new parts, I was hoping that they could green light the warranty based on these pics but the representative said all I could do is send it in, "because it's possible a consumable part failed and caused the metal part to break."
It seems a little fishy. Im not saying it is, but it seems like it could be, if you guys know what I mean.
So I am hoping you guys can diagnose this part failure and give me some advice. I am pretty handy, I do light gunsmithing on my powder burners, so blindly shipping something off with no guarantees is not really my style.
Thanks in advance to the good folks here! I haven't been around much recently and it's good to be back on the forum!
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I dont know but some one here will know and will point you in the right direction. ;)
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Yep lol
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i was just hopeing that by adding a reply the thread would show up to more people.
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I don't knot the geography of a D34 but it looks like your tophat split. I would not call that a consumable, though many replace them when they replace the spring. Mike at Flying Dragon could give you a read on it unfortunately he's out of the shop helping somebody else at the moment.
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Tail end of the piston has cracked. Don't see how anything other than a manufacturing defect could cause it.
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Your piston has cracked right behind the cocking shoe opening. The piston is not a "consumable", and to me it sounds like Umarex is hedging their bets with some BS about a "consumable" part failure causing this problem. Sounds like BS to me, period.
Honestly, I do not know what option would be best for you. You could try to buy just the piston and fix it yourself, but Umarex may not be willing to sell you that part. Also, when you open the rifle on your own you'll void the warranty. Or you could forget the warranty and send the rifle to a third party tuner who can fix it and tune it for you at the same time. Finally, you may decide to take a risk and send it to Umarex and see if they are honest and will fix it under the warranty. They should pay for the shipping, but I'd not hold my breath.
Come to think of it, the third option may still be the best- you have a better than 50/50 chance that Umarex will fix it for free.
As a side comment, I would alway advise new AR users to shoot at least 2000 or 3000 pellets through the gun in the first month ( get cheap pellets and just keep sending them down the pipe). This will expose any problems with the gun, and you can either return it or get it fixed under warranty.
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Ditto. A piston is NOT a consumable. Now umerex will say you voided the warranty because you removed the stock from the action. Good luck.
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Removing the stock should not void the warranty. Screws coming loose on breakbarrels is pretty normal, enough that if you don't put loctite on them you will more than likely have to tighten them after every shooting session, and probably during if your groups open up a little. Just the same- I wouldn't mention it to them. The malfunction had nothing to do with taking the action out of the stock. I wouldn't try to do it myself on this one, either. If you can't cock it with the barrel, trying to remove it by hand will be tough. It will probably mar the tube up something aweful, too. Plus new pistons for an rws 34 aint cheap. Best course of action is to return it. My 2cents.
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Umarex told m e to remove the stock to ship it, and that they only accept guns for warranty work as such. They say that if you send them a rifle in a stock it might not come back with the stock. I haven't done anything other than that, haven't tried to disassemble it at all.
I don't see how they could try to say this wasn't a manufacturers defect, but if they do, they charge smithing hourly plus parts... and I bet for that I could put a vortex kit in or something for the same price.
I think they should at least pay shipping to check it out, the rifle is practically brand new.
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It's not uncommon for you to pay shipping for a warranty repair. They should tell you before making any repair not covered under warranty.
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Piston split. Weird because these things are built like battleships! Must have been a hairline stress there that gave way. Will need to be replaced but it is a easy fix.
Not sure you want to go through Umarex or just do yourself quite honestly. Buy a piston from gunspares.com and just install. Umarex and having to send back paying shipping will cost just as much as just getting it yourself and doing.
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If you think you have a little tech skills, I would not pay shipping and put the money to a Vortek Kit. You will appreciate the rifle even more after a good tune.
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I would be willing to bet that the cost of a piston is going to take a big bite out of $100 bill. Even if the cost is half of that it would still be far cheaper for you to pay shipping one way. The piston is not a consumable item.
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The more I think about your situation, the more convinced I become that you should send your rifle to Umarex. All other options will be slow (think about building your own spring compressor) and will cost you money, a lot of money for custom tuning. With Umarex, at least you stand a good chance of only paying for one way shipping, and the repair being free. BTW if you remove the stock you can reduce the shipping charges.
There is another benefit of sending it back. This failure will have to be recorded in their records and eventually it should show as a negative statistic on some executive's spreadsheet. Maybe I'm naïve, but if enough such repairs are reported they may want to take a look at their production process, suppliers, etc. Otherwise, your rifle will show in their records as a perfect product. I should've sent my D34 back two years ago when the spring broke after only 1000 shots rather than fixing it myself; now they think my rifle was also perfect, which it wasn't.
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Something is out of tolerance on that gun, the problem looks to be that the crack eventually came from firing the gun, the piston was hitting the foot of the cocking arm ect, i am thinking it was a defective out of tolerance piston, by the looks of the pic the gap between the slot in the piston and the body of the compression chamber is small, another possibility is the depth of the bore in the body of the gun where the piston seats after the shot is a little too deep, and this will crack the rear of the piston as shown in the pic, personally send the gun to umarex and hopefully they will inspect the tolerances and do it right rather than just slap a piston in and return it.
Chet
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After thinking a bit more it could be THAT you are possibly over cocking and applying too much pressure, once you pull back on the barrel to cock it, the spring is forced into the piston and the the rear of the flanged spring guide contacts the front of the trigger assembly at that point the trigger is latched to the piston rod, no need to use the Arnold Swarzenagger effect LOL, the more i think about it, this can be your case,
also you can visually check that when you gun is in the fired mode, there should be a gap (with a new piston) but check yours between the cocking arm and the rear of the piston slot so when fired there is no contact there
Chet
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Are we sure that's the piston ? It looks like plastic to me . Like the end of the spring guide broke off and is around the spring itself. Isn't there a part of the spring on each side of the broken piece ? Or are my old eyes going ?
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(http://targettune.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/p1030077.jpg)
Your piston is cracked. There is something else wrong also...cocking arm might be bent or maybe defective from the factory.
I would send that puppy back, big problems.
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Just so the GTA community will know these pistons can come from the factory with unnoticed hairlines. This is a customers rifle piston from a D34 he had only a few weeks when he wanted me to do a full tune. After breaking the rifle down to disassemble and wipe down the moly and tar here is what I found on the piston side toward the piston seal..............
So they can split or begin to. I truly believe this just to be a faulty part that somehow got through QC because the rifle was functioning fine at at the proper velocity. So yes, the rear of the piston can or could have had a hairline and eventually gave to pressures thata they are under with the force of the spring release.
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I thought about this and came up with the same conclusion being over cocked with too much force. For a repair, another avenue you could take is gig g David Slade a call at airgunwerks. He does excellent work and was a Beeman tech for a long time. His rates are pretty reasonable too.
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I can't imagine cocking too hard would ruin a piston that is made right. Consider how hard they slam when fired. Plus, the rws guns have a rod in the center of the piston that the rigger sear catches/releases. It's not like the piston in a crosman. That is a defect, pure and simple!
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I can't imagine cocking too hard would ruin a piston that is made right. ...
^.
It looks like a material flaw to me. It can happen to the best of them, but also should be fixed on Umarex's nickel, no questions asked.
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No I think that is a very good reason the piston is cracked. As far as slamming during the shot cycle, well there is a cushion of air that forms so there really isn't a slamming piston accurance at all. And the hole that is cracked is at the rear of the piston and not at the front where the so called slamming would be. That theory makes no sense. Yes the piston latches to the trigger unit via center pin, but the force of cocking is in the same area as the split is, thAt would be the most logical reason of the split. The center pin has no bearing or cause for the split. When cocking over zealously, the rear of the piston can and does bottom out at the base of the spring guide in factory dress. Coincidentally, this split is also in the same area as the front trigger guard bolt that screws onto the front of the trigger unit. Any more force extra force from the cocking arm could very well cause the split. So in that light I don't see where it may be a factory flaw, but more like user error. Case in point, check out some of the people on you tube that break open and cock their rifles hard. and I'm sure they are not aware they might be causing harm to there springer. These are the same people that probably overtighten there water faucets and then wonder why the tap always leaks after a few months of abuse. Lols. Once the trigger catches the piston/piston center pin and you hear the trigger unit 'click', stop there. That's all you need.
But regardless of the cause, the fact is the rear of the piston has split and flared out enough to cause the piston to seize up in the compression tube and repairs are in order. Who and where the owner of this rifle decides to send it off to is his decision alone. I would either return it to umerex and pay whatever they want or send it off to someone like Dave Slade who can repair or replace the piston.
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The typical result of excessive cocking force against a seated piston is a bent cocking arm or broken tab at the end of the arm. Too little clearance between the cocking tab and piston catch would show signs of contact such as galled metal at contact points and distortion of the cocking tab. I see no signs of either. What I see is a piston with a weak spot that due to the stresses of firing simply split. Something as simple as an abnormality in the metal or mistake in the tempering process can cause it. Regardless, a new piston is in order.
I'd also suggest if you'd rather not deal with Umarex, or of the cost of a new piston from them is prohibitive, consider getting a B25 piston from Mike Melick at flyingdragon if he has one available. Should be a drop in fit.
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Good suggestion with the b-25 piston. If the gun has the t-06 trigger he would have to go with a b-25 trigger also I believe as it uses a t-05 clone trigger. That really is a non issue as the trigger can be set up nicely with the 2nd screw mod.
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" What I see is a piston with a weak spot that due to the stresses of firing simply split". In normal setup, once the barrel is fully closed, there should be a gap between the cocking arm tab and the rear end of the slot of the piston. If you have ever grasped the cocking arm with the barrel closed you can feel this gap because there should be a little bit of side play of the cocking arm. The cocking arm is also a stamped and bent piece so it should flex a minute bit under excessive preassure whereas a more solid cocking arm like that of an R1 would not flex at all. The spring guides that Diana uses are also synthetic which can also render some if cocked with excessive force. It's really hard to see any gauling of anything within The pictures posted by the OP. Since the piston seal of the Diana piston is more of a doughnut configuration without much materel forward of the piston end, then that may very we'll be the case,....only if the piston itself is undersized in length and the cocking slot of the piston makes a positive contact with the cocking arm tab. So it's up its a toss up as I see it.
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I can't believe people are suggesting that you spend money on a Chinese trigger and piston to repair a fairly new Diana breakbarrel. You could probably get a new Diana 34 piston fo the price of a Chinese piston, trigger, and screw mod. I am pretty much a do-it-yourselfer, and with a broken spring or spring guide I'd just de-bur the gun and drop a kit in it with some good ARH moly and tar and the gun would be better than new. All my springers eventually receive at least that much attention anyway, whether the factory parts give out or not. However, a cracked piston is a different ball game. In a cheap Chinese clone I might even still just fix it, i think Crosman B19 pistons are only $10-$15. Best warranty I've seen on a Chinese gun is only about 2 years anyway. But a piston for a Diana is gonna run you at least $50 or so unless you find a used one. Even used it may still be that expensive! It's worth paying shipping and waiting for warranty work on this one. Just my honest opinion!
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Replacing with rws piston would be the preferred way to go for sure. B-25 parts could be an option if umarex won't cover under warranty.
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All good comments and suggestions here ..... but ...... follow Mr Sasquatch's advice. Shipping is insignificant, and if under warranty they probably would refund that to you.
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The more I think about your situation, the more convinced I become that you should send your rifle to Umarex. All other options will be slow (think about building your own spring compressor) and will cost you money, a lot of money for custom tuning. With Umarex, at least you stand a good chance of only paying for one way shipping, and the repair being free. BTW if you remove the stock you can reduce the shipping charges.
There is another benefit of sending it back. This failure will have to be recorded in their records and eventually it should show as a negative statistic on some executive's spreadsheet. Maybe I'm naïve, but if enough such repairs are reported they may want to take a look at their production process, suppliers, etc. Otherwise, your rifle will show in their records as a perfect product. I should've sent my D34 back two years ago when the spring broke after only 1000 shots rather than fixing it myself; now they think my rifle was also perfect, which it wasn't.
i agree with this...
is there a possibility the cracked part is the cocking shoe?
did you register the warranty (if so stated in the warranty statement)? have all associated paperwork at hand when communicating with them about the rifle.
before doing anything else...i would contact the head of customer service Umarex USA DIRECTLY via fone and have a discussion with him/her. (be sure to keep a written record of names dates, times of persons spoken to, and a synopsis of what was said.)
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Actually, Umarex's warranty service may not be as bad as some of the posters on this forum might imply. In my D34, a small part inside the trigger assembly (T06) broke so that the rifle could not be cocked. The rifle was still under warranty. I contacted Umarex and only sent them the trigger assy. From that, they new that I had taken the rifle completely apart, yet they fixed the trigger (or get me a whole new one - I couldn't tell) free of charge.
Here is the link to my original post, if you need more detail.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=47436.msg445838#msg445838 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=47436.msg445838#msg445838)
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Me too Squatch.
My 56 was tuned when it blew the piston.
Couple of e mails to Glen S at Umarex and he sent a shipping label. They put all new stock parts in a gun that was completely tuned.
Free shipping and repair...they even sent me an extra piston...free.
Reach out and see what they say....be sure to let us know.
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I am resurrecting this necro thread to update.... I haven't done anything so far. Got very vague instructions from Umarex with a sort of implication that I might be on the hook for relatively pricey repairs. So it's been sitting in my closet whIle I've been shooting more powder burners n such and procrastinating dealing with umarex. I am relatively handy when it comes to powder burners but haven't done any work on airguns, and was debating getting a vortex type kit and building a spring compressor and installing (things of which i have zero experience with) or trying to deal with the "limited lifetime warranty"... and, well, i got bored debating so it's been sitting around. Well now I gotta get this handled, it's been too dang long lol.
With regards to the comment that I might have put too much Aaaaarnold into the cocking, I don't think that's it. I had been babying this thing.
So I guess the consensus is to send it back to Umarex? Like some said, I hope they don't just throw in a piston cap if there has been galling, because it sure sounded like *(&^ when it broke, I wouldn't be surprised if it left some marks inside the tibe.
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Send the thing back, have them look at it, but tell them you just want them to tell you what happened, and whether or not it is under warranty. Tell them not to repair anything without first contacting you with estimated costs. If it's under warranty, problem solved. If it's not warranty, you either pay to have it repaired or simply have them ship it back to you. If that is the case, then I would send it off for a tune ... if you throw a kit in it, you won't recognize it as your old D34. Send it back, what do you have to lose ... shipping? So what.
Pappy
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Send the thing back, have them look at it, but tell them you just want them to tell you what happened, and whether or not it is under warranty. Tell them not to repair anything without first contacting you with estimated costs. If it's under warranty, problem solved. If it's not warranty, you either pay to have it repaired or simply have them ship it back to you. If that is the case, then I would send it off for a tune ... if you throw a kit in it, you won't recognize it as your old D34. Send it back, what do you have to lose ... shipping? So what.
Pappy
What he said....one way shipping to Arkansas should not be more than $10-12. Tell them you want an estimate only. You have not authorised any repair work. If they come back with a big number, have them send it to a tuner. When it is snowing this winter and you can not go outside to play, build a spring compressor.
Don't wait another year,
-Y
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Get it fixed, give it away, or throw it in the garbage ;)
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said "consumable parts" like springs seals and "certain other things" are only covered by an 18month warranty. Ive had the rifle about 20 months
Your piston is not cracked, but broken completely apart at the spot where the cocking arm pushes on it. Attempts to cock it are just hooking the spring, and maybe scoring the cylinder (at least you don't use that area for compression, so maybe buttoning would keep a new piston from being too loose).
DEFINITELY due to manufacturing defect but my advice to you is send the picture to Glenn Seiter via email and ask him to send you a replacement part so that you can fix it yourself.
If you end up letting them convince you to send it, they will most likely charge you, even if they say they won't (see this link (http://www.bbb.org/arkansas/business-reviews/sporting-goods-wholesale-and-manufacturers/umarexusacom-in-fort-smith-ar-90202531/complaints) if you doubt me).
I made the mistake of trusting them, and after 4 months I got my rifle back in arguably worse condition then it was in when I sent it, but this is your thread - so I don't want to hijack it!
When you get the new part and disassemble the rifle, you might want to take some pics of the innards (including the chamber wall) for further advice in case there is reason to believe repairs will not be as simple as changing parts...
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For my money I would be patient until I could get ahold of Mike Mellick at Flying Dragon and ask him to perform some magic. That man is pure wizard.
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You need a new piston. Order one or send the gun to Umarex. No amount of tuning by a third party is going to fix the piston. Getting a third party to replace the piston is just going to increase the price to fix the problem.
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Chambers has the piston with seal for 39.60 pounds.Good company to do business with.
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In my opinion, if you have a good quality spring piston air rifle it's obligatory you have your spring compressor (and the exploded view to help you understand). Remember those 'consumable parts'? You'll have a lot of maintenance on the way.
Even more you feel handy, I think it will be a pleasure to you "do (or diagnose) it by yourself" most of the times.
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I'd send it back there's not much they can say about the piston cracking, it is a faulty part. If you were to get a spring compressor so you could do your own tunes and maintenance I'dw be tempted to talk to a head hancho and see if you couldn't come to some agreement to send just the piston in and save everyone some shipping, ten hopefully there arent other parts out of whack.
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I am all for you learning to work on your own gun but...I would sure talk to the head of service at Umarex and see if they can help you out. You bought a brand new gun, for crying out loud.
As far as worrying about damage when the part broke...I expect a simple debur inside compression tube will have it to very useable. The end of the piston doesn't necessarily go into where your piston seal rides anyway, the actual area where compression takes place so...a debur and new piston lubed, etc...
If they balk about covering cost, see if they will at least replace the piston and seal and you do it yourself. Very easy to take these apart. Easy to build a spring compressor. Once you do this on your own...you are no longer afraid to tackel any other issues and it gives you freedom. You can also tune it while you're in there, which makes it night and day difference to shoot and so much more fun without the twang. If you desired to have it fixed...plenty of guys to do it as well but...it will cost more than Umarex I expect but at least you could trust them.
Another option is to contact a tuner to act as a go between. Pay him to tune it and get the parts you need from Umarex.
Unarex should easily fix this for free. I don't even think you paying for shipping is right but well worth the cost but...like said...you could order your own REAL piston for a Diana. No way would I put in a China piston and trigger. That is crazy talk! Put real German parts in side. If you don't want to fix it...sell cheap enough for somebody to get it back running and go by a HW 95 on sale in the desert...AoA.
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Umarex told m e to remove the stock to ship it, and that they only accept guns for warranty work as such. They say that if you send them a rifle in a stock it might not come back with the stock. I haven't done anything other than that, haven't tried to disassemble it at all.
I don't see how they could try to say this wasn't a manufacturers defect, but if they do, they charge smithing hourly plus parts... and I bet for that I could put a vortex kit in or something for the same price.
I think they should at least pay shipping to check it out, the rifle is practically brand new.
I see the thread still going, did you get any closer to deciding? Rules say no bashing vendors so all I can say about Umarex integrity or moral character is: