GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => Turkish AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Pappywith4 on June 21, 2014, 02:55:35 AM
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Well I just ordered a new seal and some super moly from AGH! I decided to bite the bullet and do a tear down to deburr and cleanup what I can then put a good seal and lube!
I noticed that the rifle started having more recoil and seemingly shoot slower with more noise!!!
So we can't have that ,thanks to all you guys help and all the post that has been made I realized I need to do some replacing of factory seal ! So hopefully I can makeup a jig to depressive piston enough to take it down! Wish me luck on that one I can't afford a brain cramp on this job! Lol. I will keep y'all to date as I go! ;)
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Hey Pappy,
Your going down the road most of US Hatsan owners have. With a tune the guns can be made so much better.
Just remember the downside, this voids the manufactures warranty, Hatsan will not sell you any (OEM) parts if needed (excepting seals).
So in my case, Hatsan USA will not sell me either a sear #1 for my Quattro trigger or the whole trigger assembly. I need to box up the entire gun and return it to them in AR. They want to fix and go over the entire gun. This will likely cost me $50+ in shipping (both ways) plus the labor/parts fees. Hence, I'm likely better off buying a new Hatsan 95.
My two cents...........
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I noticed that the rifle started having more recoil and seemingly shoot slower with more noise!!!
That's a pretty good sign the seal is nicked and will only get worse.
On the warrenty? Only you can make the decision to throw it away.
My AG's were used but even if I ordered a new Vortex version today? I'd take it down and chance it.
I mean, I know someone I could sell the trigger to if things go bad.
;)
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I bought the gun secondhand anyway so what warranty! Lol. If the trigger goes bad for some reason I am sure it can be fixed one way or another! I am not a gun smith nor do I have a shaper or lathe but I can find a shop or just buy a complete trigger that walther sells! Let's just hope I don't wear this one out! Lol
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Well the whole warrenty issue is no longer an issue.
;D
Take that sucker down and OWN it!
;)
You'll have a blast doing it, it really makes it 'Your Gun' then.
You'll also get a look into what the Pro Tuners deal with.
I think that was the greatest insight I got out of the whole 'Do it myself' thing.
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How did you compress the spring?
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I used the jack from my Dodge pick-up.
It may sound crazy but it's a scissor jack so has power that is way beyound what a Springer or Gas piston has.
I built a 'thing' against my bender in the basement to hold the AG's.
I did do the 1st Sniper under a Stake Bed truck frame the first time.
:o
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How much preload was there?
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3/4 of an inch. I took it apart with no compressor the first time. Just body weight.
I couldn't get it back together though.
I'm just to skinny to do that.
;D
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No worries here I weigh 240 lol but I will build something for the sake of building it! :D
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Good luck Pappy,
Taking apart the gun is not a problem, you can put a small screwdriver in one of the holes supporting the trigger housing and then shoot the spring/pieces in a large can padded with rags. Putting the gun back together is another matter.
I would definitely use a compressor.
Your kids still need a Pappy!! ???
My two cents............but I only weigh 150 lbs and never considered assembling by hand :P
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I'm about 150 myself. That piston will whip our behinds!
;D
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That bad boy needs a compressor! I just use a bar clamp that I picked up at home depot for about $20. Worked fine on my old walther talon mag (hatsan 125). A good pipe clamp or bar clamp will get the job done nicely, but be careful. Even with a nice spring compressor, things can go awry on you. Privateer- you're a bad dude brother! I would not even attempt the hattie 125 without some type of compressor. A spring like the one in this gun can kill you! I hope that nobody else tries...
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Mine was the Nitro Piston. 3/4 inch preload and I did take it apart with no compressor.
I couldn't get it back together though! It whooped me like a bad habit!
;D
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I've read that the trail XL has about 1/4" of preload on the np, and can be disassembled safely with just a pillowcase to catch it on the way out. Kinda funny that the hatsan with the xl upgrade has about 3/4" preload. Makes you wonder about the ram and conversion parts used by pyramyd. Baybe it has a little more preload because the piston isn't nitched for the end of the ram. The 125 with the nitro sounds really nice, perect balance of power and hold sensitivity in a magnum breakbarrel. I am still scratching my head over the fact that it isn't offered for the 135. The difference in dimensions should be almost negligible for the conversion between the two.
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I didn't have a compressor when I did mine either... Pappy. I hesitated for while then just decided to go for it! I used a big block of wood some screws and my 240lbs frame for leverage. Getting it back together took another set of hands to put the pin back in while I pushed on it for all she's worth. Would have been alot easier with a bar clamp but I'm a knucklehead who jumps in feet first! I later found an old rusty bar clamp laying in the farm workshop and that made my next tune alot easier. Get a walther talon seal from pa and good luck on that tune. It will be worth it!
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I've read that the trail XL has about 1/4" of preload on the np, and can be disassembled safely with just a pillowcase to catch it on the way out. Kinda funny that the hatsan with the xl upgrade has about 3/4" preload. Makes you wonder about the ram and conversion parts used by pyramyd. Baybe it has a little more preload because the piston isn't nitched for the end of the ram. The 125 with the nitro sounds really nice, perect balance of power and hold sensitivity in a magnum breakbarrel. I am still scratching my head over the fact that it isn't offered for the 135. The difference in dimensions should be almost negligible for the conversion between the two.
I'll say this for what it is worth.
I have a brand new XL NP here right now. I could compress the NP in the Sniper when I took it apart.
This thing? It's a whole new beast! Now did they up the pressure or did I get weaker? I don't know.
But I can't wait to try it out! I've heard the new NP's are improved.
May be a whole new ball game if they are!
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Great idea about the bar clamp! Oh and by the way I have up all my brownie points with my grand kids so no chances will be taken! This old mule ain't what it use to be and I am just happy I can hang around and graze! Lol
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One more idea on topic of (dis)assembling.
On Russian YT video youtube.com/watch?v=qg5WwJI5WOI (about 8 and half minutes in video) I'we seen a cheap homemade tool for all springers. I'we built my one for under 10e (in Bosnia and Hercegovina). Be sure to use it even disassembling so ur spring doesn't fly trough window :)
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Please do not try without a spring compressor. There are lots of ideas on how to make one Mine cost me about $15
We would really like to have you around for awhile
Just make one You will be glad you did [and so will we]
Tommy
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I bought a cheap bar clamp from harbor freight that should work pretty good ! I will either do a video of it or take stills of it, who knows we may all get a laugh or learn something! I know I will learn from it ,I don't have experience in rifles except shooting!
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I've read that the trail XL has about 1/4" of preload on the np, and can be disassembled safely with just a pillowcase to catch it on the way out. Kinda funny that the hatsan with the xl upgrade has about 3/4" preload. Makes you wonder about the ram and conversion parts used by pyramyd. Baybe it has a little more preload because the piston isn't nitched for the end of the ram. The 125 with the nitro sounds really nice, perect balance of power and hold sensitivity in a magnum breakbarrel. I am still scratching my head over the fact that it isn't offered for the 135. The difference in dimensions should be almost negligible for the conversion between the two.
With the exception of the 105 models, Xman XL nitro piston will fit H125 - 155. I have converted my H155 from spring to XL nitro piston about 2 years ago. It is still going very strong penetrating 1/2 inch plywood at 20 yards. I installed it with the ram cylinder in the piston. You can look at my attached design. You need to fabricate some parts though because the ram stroke is only 130 mm...the vortex gas piston has a stroke of 140mm. The preload is only 5mm.
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I've read that the trail XL has about 1/4" of preload on the np, and can be disassembled safely with just a pillowcase to catch it on the way out. Kinda funny that the hatsan with the xl upgrade has about 3/4" preload. Makes you wonder about the ram and conversion parts used by pyramyd. Baybe it has a little more preload because the piston isn't nitched for the end of the ram. The 125 with the nitro sounds really nice, perect balance of power and hold sensitivity in a magnum breakbarrel. I am still scratching my head over the fact that it isn't offered for the 135. The difference in dimensions should be almost negligible for the conversion between the two.
The Crosman XL has no preload. You can dismantle and re-assemble it without a spring compressor. I have one which I replaced the piston seal so I know what I am talking about.
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Just a hint... put some moly paste on the threads of that bar clamp. The one I got from Lowes had cast female threads and steel screw. Didn't take long for the steel to chew up the cast and it failed. I bought another one and applied the moly. Been using it ever since.... smooth as silk.
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This clamp has a ratchet instead of a screw!!
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Mine does, too. The kind with the trigger style ratchet. Works like a charm.
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Mine does, too. The kind with the trigger style ratchet. Works like a charm.
. Good to know!
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Mine has a rubber pad at each end as well. I take thebarrels off my guns before tearing into them as an added measure of safety, since my "spring compressor" doesn't have any way of stabilizing a barrel that may decide to break loose at the worst time. I put the assembled reciever in it, ratchet it closed, and give it a good squeeze to tighte it a bit, then drive the pins out using a hammer and an alle key for a punch. When i release the tension, it still resists the spring enough to keep it contained. Btw it is called an Irwin Quick-Grip. Yours sounds like something similar...
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Yes it sounds just like it! I am planing to take one side of the clamp off and use a pin out of the trigger to pin the clamp to it!
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It has been 4 days and according to the tracking info my seals and super moly are still in Baltimore!
What happened to 1-3 days delivery? I hope ARH is worth the wait , I would have already had it from PA!
I am following everyone ones advice and getting it from them ! So I will wait!
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Please do not try without a spring compressor. There are lots of ideas on how to make one Mine cost me about $15
We would really like to have you around for awhile
Just make one You will be glad you did [and so will we]
Tommy
X2. You can not only hurt yourself, but, you can damage the gun beyond repair.
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Please do not try without a spring compressor. There are lots of ideas on how to make one Mine cost me about $15
We would really like to have you around for awhile
Just make one You will be glad you did [and so will we]
Tommy
Why is it when I read your text I hear Sam Elliot's voice? Lol
X2. You can not only hurt yourself, but, you can damage the gun beyond repair.
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I take into consideration the cocking effort. With that long barrel for a lever, you're still pulling in the ballpark of 50 pounds to move that piston a few inches. HUNDREDS of pounds of pressure are being released when you squeeze the trigger. Probably well over a hundred pounds just under the pre-load, uncocked. If we could find a way yo harness every bit of power that spring can make, these guns would probably be more powerful than a .22 LR. Just something to think about...
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To me that's the biggest part of a good tune to make it as efficient as possible !
I agree if we good use every ounce of what we already have we could see a mile stone of difference in the power and long distance accuracy! Try to squeeze every ounce of what is there is more important than adding more power! A well placed pellet does more damage than a faster one shot poorly !
I shoot bows as well and that is the key a great tuned bow shoots more smoothly and with good form it hits more accurately! I think that's one of the challenges I want to win at! Learn my weapon ,enhance it with every possible thing that makes it quiet and smooth will make it more accurate!
,
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Hey Pappywith4,
After you finish with the piston seal replacement and lube, the next step is tackling your Quattro trigger ???
Fine tuning the trigger allows you to get very consistent/accurate.....
With a new seal, good lube job and tuning the trigger, you can really start shooting.
If I can't hit a 1/4" red dot at 35 ft, I'm doing something wrong in my hold/stock screws are loose or the scope is toying with me.
My two cents............
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Spiral the best shot I have done with this gun is at 18 yds I shot the target then aimed for the pellet hole and shot the hole! So the gun is accurate but it started dropping off and recoiling harder so I will have go through it! I do plan on smoothing out the trigger some though because everything you do can add up to be a great gun! Thanks for responding!
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Well folks the new seal and super moly came in today from AGH so tomorrow I will set up the camera and start taking apart the monster! Wish me luck and pray for me ! Lol. I will need it! Pappy
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Careful with the trigger. At the very most, I'd polish the contact points by hand with some fine sandpaper and that still may be pushing it! A dab of good ARH moly on all contact points will make a difference, and it is a nice trigger as is when properly adjusted. You need to have realistic expectaions- you are not going to get a sub- 2 pound hair trigger out of this thing with any measure of safety! But it can be set to be nice and predictable
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Pappy,
The trick is to get your "best shot" most every time you shoot........
Spiral
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Just dont get frustrated. It sounds like you are having fun and that is the whole idea
Keep up the good work
Tommy
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Bad news they sent the wrong seal! Mine is 1 1/8 theirs is 1" boo hoo
Well I looked inside of the air chamber expecting to see snags but all I saw was filth! It was NASTY with junk! I shot some PB Blaster into it and now it looks like a mirror! Wow they need to clean their space where these are assembled!!!! I sure was wanting to do this all in one setting so I don't forget but I did video it in segments so I should be able to put it in reverse! Lol. Later guys. Pappy
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Try seating it on the piston to see if it expands a little. Seems like they do for me.
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With both seals side by side off the rifle it is too small on the over all dimension ! It is about half the thickness also! Definitely wrong!
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did you order the walther talon mag seal?
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That not worthy. I have the seal that PA recommended, but yet to get the replacement gun to check and see. I ordered the Talon Mag seal.
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Yep that's what I ordered! But thin and small! I emailed them last night but no response yet!
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How do I post pics?
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Do you have a photobucket or other image account?
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Yes I just need to look for it!
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Well they didn't answer my email today so I cleaned it up put moly on it and put it back together!
I had the trigger apart and was going to sand it smooth but it was shinny polished so I put moly on that also and prayed as I put it back together ! Lol. I was shocked at how loud it was! Sounded like a 22 rifle for about 4 shots then it went back to the only thing making noise was the piston slamming home! I figure if they send me the correct seal I will hold on to it until this one goes bad!
With all the filth that was in the air chamber I don't know how it was shooting as good as it did! Hopefully I will get back in the groove when I put the scope on and tighten up my groups!
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I just dug up my old spare ARH WTM seal, and the old original seal. They are almost identical in dimensions, except the ARH seal is a tiny bit larger than the OEM seal. You have to match them up face to face to tell the difference. Hatsan is infamous for installing slightly undersized seals. They smaller seal can yield better power from the start, but the properly sized seal will do better after it breaks in. The undersized OEM seal also allows more of the grease and oil from the compression tube to slip by on the cocking stroke. The design of a piston seal causes it to flare out and seal tightly under pressure, trapping all that grease, so t gets trapped in there and detonates. Great for velocity but bad for accuracy and potentially harmful to the gun. Plus after enough detonation, your tube gets gunked up inside with the burnt oil which slows the piston down and eventually the velocity will drop. Sometimes a Hatsan OEM seal can burn up in a single extended plinking session. Might not, but I've seen posts about it. Even with a properly sized seal, if there is too much junk in the gun some will slide by and be compressed and detonated. That is why you need to use the moly sparingly, in just the right places. 3 or 4 detonations is not unusual after a fresh lube tune, however- especially if you put a little silicone oil on the seal to ease installation. As far as I'm concerned, WHITEFANG is our resident Hatsan 125 and 135 expert, but since he has joined the darkside the only springers he is interested in are the fine German guns. Do a search for WHITEFANG in the Turkish gate and you will learn a lot. He has burned up a couple of the OEM seals. The ARH seal is made of much better material and will handle whatever the Hatsan can throw at it, and then some. WHITEFANG was a Hatsan fanatic- so when people talk about the quality of German guns, well, I don't think it's just snobbery. They must be pretty good. But that is beside the point, and as far as I'm concerned the Hatsans are good guns. My old WTM (125) has been sold, bought back, and sold again and I myself put at least 5K rounds down the tube on that gun with the factory spring and an ARH seal. When I sold it, it was putting out 34 fpe with Eun Jin 35 grain domes, and about 30 fpe with just about any other pellet except #3 buckshot, which got about 27 fpe. It did require a breech seal shim, and before I did that it was about a 24-26 fpe gun. Hatsan is definitely the leader regarding power in springers, and the 125 can hit a 1" target every time at 30 yards with the right ammo- IF you do your part. You just need to get all the garbage out of them to make them last! Which you already have done. I get excited about the Hatsan magnums, and your thread has gotten me all pumped up! Thank you for sharing! There is nothing like tearing down your first springer for your first lube tune. Your gun should be fine for now with the OEM seal, as long as you aren't out there ripping them out as fast as you can. Just get that ARH seal in there as soon as possible to ensure the longevity of the rifle!
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Do you have any dial calipers that you could measure the seal that you got from PA? I wonder if I have the same one or you got a different one than I have.
Thanks
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Riche I got it from ARH and with a slide rule caliper and it measures one inch outside and inside hole is one half inch!
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Ok thanks. Mine is 1 1/16" across the backside and 1 3/16" across the front.
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The one they sent me Rich is not only too small it is half as thick only 1/4 inch thick!
The smaller side is only 11/16 so entirely the wrong seal!
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That kinda gives me hope that I might have the correct one. Now if they'll ship my rifle I'll be a happy camper.
Thanks for the info.
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I got a couple of WTH seals from http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251485/6616786.htm. (http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251485/6616786.htm.) Each measures about 1.150-1.155 inch. I changed my 125 sniper oem seal to this. It fits snugly. No problem at all.
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I got a couple of WTH seals from http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251485/6616786.htm. (http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251485/6616786.htm.) Each measures about 1.150-1.155 inch. I changed my 125 sniper oem seal to this. It fits snugly. No problem at all.
link not working
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Just wanted to say thank you to all that has replied and given input!
I am a newbie and need everyone's help and that is what has happened!
Thank you. Pappy
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http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251485/6616786.htm (http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251485/6616786.htm)
Fixed it, that period on the end was killing the link.
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Thanks. I don't understand I ordered from the page of seals where they were all listed. The talon was the one I clicked on. Guess they just sent the wrong one.
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I thought I would leave a tip on installing the piston with the seal on it back into the chamber!
I took a tall can from an energy drink and cut a three inch strip out of it as long as I could, then rolled it or formed it over the piston to shape it and placed it in the chamber to cover the slits in the chamber to protect the seal from the edges! After the piston seal was beyond the openings I removed it and finished pushing the piston in!
Hope this helps someone else who goes down this road! Pappy
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Every little tip helps. That's why this is a good place to be.
Thanks.
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I thought I would leave a tip on installing the piston with the seal on it back into the chamber!
I took a tall can from an energy drink and cut a three inch strip out of it as long as I could, then rolled it or formed it over the piston to shape it and placed it in the chamber to cover the slits in the chamber to protect the seal from the edges! After the piston seal was beyond the openings I removed it and finished pushing the piston in!
Hope this helps someone else who goes down this road! Pappy
Did you de burr the cocking slot? If not, your gonna want to do that before you drop that new seal in. Otherwise the new seal will get cut up in no time flat.
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Believe it or not it was smooth and the chamber was polished as the trigger was! I was going to do it all but none was needed! As soon as I get the new seal I will put it in!
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You might want to sand or file all the edges of the compression tube. You will inevitably nick the seal on installation if you don't...
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Ok
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I just had a talk with ARH and they are sending me the correct seal! Man I love it when you can talk to someone one on one and are able to get an understanding of what happened!
They are great folks to deal with ,they are sending the correct seal ,somehow I got one that was in the next bin by accident! I sent an email to them the day I got the order letting them know I got the wrong seal and never heard back! We'll come to find out it was in my junk mail! Yuk! I hate it when you have sent an order and or sent an email and it does that! But thankfully these folk are decent about the timeframe and turned around and sent the correct one! I will send others to them!
By the way they make pyramid air seals for them is what they told me so that is good to know!
But I would still want too Order mine through them because of what they did right here!
Good job ARH in giving great customer service! Rev john or pappywith4.
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I just had a talk with ARH and they are sending me the correct seal! Man I love it when you can talk to someone one on one and are able to get an understanding of what happened!
They are great folks to deal with ,they are sending the correct seal ,somehow I got one that was in the next bin by accident! I sent an email to them the day I got the order letting them know I got the wrong seal and never heard back! We'll come to find out it was in my junk mail! Yuk! I hate it when you have sent an order and or sent an email and it does that! But thankfully these folk are decent about the timeframe and turned around and sent the correct one! I will send others to them!
By the way they make pyramid air seals for them is what they told me so that is good to know!
But I would still want too Order mine through them because of what they did right here!
Good job ARH in giving great customer service! Rev john or pappywith4.
That is awesome! Thanks for the tip regarding that seal, too. I though Pyramyd's seal was a knock off of ARH. Good to know it's the same seal! I wonder if air venturi moly is the same, too...
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I don't know but I got it from ARH to be certain!
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Ok everyone I got a new seal from PA and installed it this morning? I wish I had a crono to test what the real speed is, I do have an app for my iPhone that works off the sound of the shot and the sound of it hitting the metal target! But my rifle isn't very loud so I don't know how accurate it will be! I will update this in the afternoon when it cools off here! I also put a heavy oring in the front end that fits perfect in the air chamber so the piston wouldn't hit hard and it really made a difference! The gun doesn't jump off target half as bad upon firing!
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Hey Pappy,
Glad you got the gun working again ;)!!!
Who gave you the O ring cushioning idea? On the surface, it sounds like a good one!
I wonder if the O ring would disintegrate over time causing problems in the compression chamber?
FYI, Amazon has the F-1 crony's for around $88.
Kirk
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I'm wondering if the o-ring in the chamber will leave you with a void and not being able to use all of the airspace to make compression. I know when we mod pumpers, we fill all voids and eliminate all head space to get maximum efficiency from our pump strokes. The pressure that a good working seal makes in the air chamber should keep it from slamming. That is the whole idea. I can understand your thinking about creating a cushion. I can also see this deadening some of the spring "recoil" but, I think you are robbing your gun of , at least, a little power. If I'm wrong, I'm sure we will know very soon :-\
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As far as the oring idea , I was the one who thought about it when I saw the new nitro 2 ! Some might be lost but a very minimum because the oring will compress on impact ! I know the recoil is low enough now to stay closer to target than before and it is quieter and smoother !
I think I will spend a few dollars more and upgrade to one that isn't so light sensitive !
But $100 is not bad for one that has 4.5 stars !
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Hey Pappy,
I hate to be negative, but the next time you open up the compression chamber, I would remove that O-ring.
Try it for awhile as you seem to feel it's helping, but I know Hatsan would not recommend this :-[.
Good Luck.........
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Lol I know they wouldn't lol but I am trying to improve shoot ability and if they aren't shame on them!
So far no regrets and like I said it is worth trying and all it can cost me is a tear down !
It got rid of the hard( clock) sound when I fired it! To me it is an improvement for now, who knows it may crono it and find out I lost too much speed and take it out ! But to make it more accurate by reducing recoil is worth 2 hundred fts if that's all I loose! I will let ya know if something comes ! Thanks for the advice! Pappywith4. Grand kids. ;D
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Great Pappy,
As long as your getting 800+ fps in .22 cal. or 700+ fps in .25 cal., I would take better accuracy over more power any day 8).
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Can't say what speed I am getting but from 40 yds it is almost the same noise as hitting the target just a fraction different !
And the paper target at 40 yds make more noise than the rifle! I made a triangle box with all sides sloping inward to form a point at the back and inserted 6" of foam to slow the pellet before it hits the 2x8 material
That it is made from! This makes sure that the pellet never has at straight on I mpact to the wood giving glancing blows being caught by the foam!
In east Texas speech it is as quiet as a squirrel sneeze!
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Pappy,
I think I spend more time analyzing and adjusting than shooting ::).
Have fun with your set-up ;)!
Kirk