GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: ranedouglas on January 09, 2011, 03:24:54 PM
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. my boss at sun optics, duane s., has explained to me that he knows the head engineer at crosman corp. i'm sure knows administrators and executors there, too. he sells them lots of footpumps. ....and i have been running this idea by him....... i'm sure i'm not the only one who dreams of .20 (and even .25) discovery barrels, and .20 caliber (5mm) 2260, 2250, 2400, 2240, 1760 barrels - which are basically the same, except the lengths. i'd like EVERYONE who would consider buying a full length (24") .20 caliber barrel from crosman to reply to this post. i will print it off and submit it to the powers that be at the crosman corp. i think their barrels now are around $16. we can probably be ready for $33 .20 cal barrels unless they are made from brass - like the one on my ssp250 pistol. it will still be a FAR cheaper option than what we have now. if you have some realistic advice or would care to expound on this plan, please email me directly here : webley_air_rifles@yahoo.com . i'm 'getting all of my ducks in a row' before approaching crosman shortly after the shot show (4-6 weeks). i would greatly appreciate everyone's help in this matter. - paul d self. http://raneair.webs.com (http://raneair.webs.com) . -ps: gene - if this will be a problem for you, please let me know and i will ask that all responses be directed to the email address listed.
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i'll buy two or three......this is my enrty - also an example. you can explain how many you'd get, or that's it's been a long wait, or whatever. crosman execs will see this. if you have some better ideas to add to this, please send them to the email. our showing for crosman must be refined and concise. - paul.
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I'd be interested in a couple myself.
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I definetely will take one for my SSP250. Thank you.
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Your post is fine Paul. Hope Crosman decides to make some. Would love to buy one for a Disco.
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I`ll take 2-3. Love that .20! I would like to see crossman jump on the bigbore wagon as well.
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Titan barrel in .25 for $30? Sure... 8*)
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I could go for a .20 cal barrel. What about the bolt?
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only 7 people would buy .20 cal barrels for their benji/crosman guns ??
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I would be interested in one for my 1377 pumper, and my future custom shop carbine.
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I'm a fan of the .20 caliber pellet !
I have 3 rifles in that caliber, and like Gene, would love to have one for my Disco !
And Crosman 24xx and 13xx pistols would be interesting also !
Bill
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I found an old 2011 thread regarding .20 barrels.
Other then a $125 barrel from Lothar are there any other options?
Looking for one I can use on a Crosman 2050 pump carbine
Thanks, John Henry
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I'd like to see a 20 cal break barrel. B-19 platform
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I would like a 10.5 inch. In 20 cal I would love to convert a 1377/or 1322 to 20 cal. They need to revive the the 20/cal instead of killing it off. A 20 or 22 shooting a 14.3 gr pellet at 650 fps. has the same amount of ft lbs of energy which is 13.42
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I'm guessing that idea didn't work out. I'd like 2-4 for a 2240/2260 if it happens.
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Not so interested in the .20 cal, but the idea of a .25 cal barrel in 7/16" OD to fit the 22XX. 13XX, Disco and Maximus would sure be a WINNER for me.... I'd take a few right off the bat.... If would be best if they didn't make them too fast a twist, about 20" would be a good choice, even for the heaviest pellets we can buy today.... Too fast a twist makes pellets spiral.... 25" long would be the optimum, to allow a muzzle attachment on a Disco or Maximus.... and they could offer them at 12.5" for pistols by just cutting them in half and porting the other section....
Bob
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I just like the idea of more options.
.20 is by far my favorite pesting round- too many years extincting pigeons with a Blue Streak spoiled me.
...but a Max or Disco in .25... Oh baby! If it could happen I'd order one literally right this second.
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I'll try one or two
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So what if they just started making consistently accurate barrels with clean rifling and even crowns? In .177 and .22 at least? Can we pass that info along to them? ;D
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Didn't realize this thread was from 2011.... DUH !!!
Bob
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So what if they just started making consistently accurate barrels with clean rifling and even crowns? In .177 and .22 at least? Can we pass that info along to them? ;D
+1 That would be a darned good place to start...just in case they happen to be listening 6 yrs later. :o
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So what if they just started making consistently accurate barrels with clean rifling and even crowns? In .177 and .22 at least? Can we pass that info along to them? ;D
+1
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I am pretty skeptical about Crosman barrel quality, but it would be nice to have a .20 and .25 option for their guns.
I would prefer more Lothar Walther barrel length options, an 18" and 24" length would be very welcome. Make them in .20 and I will buy 2 of each..
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If I could get barrels in .20 to convert one or both of my 1322's I would in a heartbeat.
Ideal would be something in the 14-15 inch range.
40$ ea would be no sweat.
Brass would be ok, steel would be better.
Anything under 50$ count on me for one for sure, 2 if the price is better.
And thank you, thank you very much.
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If I could get barrels in .20 to convert one or both of my 1322's I would in a heartbeat.
Ideal would be something in the 14-15 inch range.
40$ ea would be no sweat.
Brass would be ok, steel would be better.
Anything under 50$ count on me for one for sure, 2 if the price is better.
And thank you, thank you very much.
+1
I'd love to build a 1300KT around an accurate .20 barrel
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If I could get barrels in .20 to convert one or both of my 1322's I would in a heartbeat.
Ideal would be something in the 14-15 inch range.
40$ ea would be no sweat.
Brass would be ok, steel would be better.
Anything under 50$ count on me for one for sure, 2 if the price is better.
And thank you, thank you very much.
+1
I'd love to build a 1300KT around an accurate .20 barrel
I wanted the same thing for my .177 1300KT carbine. Better power, more efficiency.
IMHO, there is a sweet spot for .20 in springers and PCPs and MSPs. Opinions and experiences with this caliber vary widely, but for my uses, depending on the platform, .20 works great from about 12 fpe up to 30 fpe. Perfect for a hard-hitting little yard and garden pumper!
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Old thread, but yes. Would love to see .20cal for Crosman 13xx. 14.7, 16 and 18in.....And obviously bolts also.
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Crosman doesn't make their own barrels.
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I'd try a Vantage in .20 .
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The idea of something new in .20 has been tried and feelers were sent to any number of companies and none had any interest.
Trying to do so was either cost prohibitive and/or they felt it was a waste of time bringing a new one out since .20 for any number
of years now has been a niche caliber liked by few.
Only real option is to find someone who can custom make you what you're wishing for.
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You might try looking for a Sterling barrel.
Benjamin sold the Sterlings here in the US and I believe the story goes, when Crosman bought them, they liquidated the parts including .20 barrels.
I found one on ebay and built a "2060" with Crosman parts
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You might try looking for a Sterling barrel.
Benjamin sold the Sterlings here in the US and I believe the story goes, when Crosman bought them, they liquidated the parts including .20 barrels.
I found one on ebay and built a "2060" with Crosman parts
While an idea, the original post by Mr Douglas, was to try and get a major company (Crosman in this case) to start making
.20 caliber barrels again. Crosman, among other companies, was one that said no. You'd have to talk to 19Sheridan57 and ask
how many companies he contacted but every one of them said no for the reasons I mentioned above and why I said you'd have
find something aftermarket or like you, find a new/old stock barrel like you did.
The original poster, Mr Douglas, who's name in several forms was unmentionable on GTA, I believe is now deceased. Someone on
another forum mentioned having not seen him posting on the AAC in quite awhile so I started searching the names he used. After coming
across this complaint about his company on the BBB where he replied stating he'd been in and out of the hospital dealing with medical
issues: https://www.bbb.org/us/tx/fort-worth/profile/gunsmiths/rane-air-repairs-0825-1000175567/complaints (https://www.bbb.org/us/tx/fort-worth/profile/gunsmiths/rane-air-repairs-0825-1000175567/complaints)
I went digging using his real name and found this obituary, which I believe is him, from February of 2020:
https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/name/paul-self-obituary?pid=195367544 (https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/name/paul-self-obituary?pid=195367544)
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You might try looking for a Sterling barrel.
Benjamin sold the Sterlings here in the US and I believe the story goes, when Crosman bought them, they liquidated the parts including .20 barrels.
I found one on ebay and built a "2060" with Crosman parts
While an idea, the original post by Mr Douglas, was to try and get a major company (Crosman in this case) to start making
.20 caliber barrels again. Crosman, among other companies, was one that said no. You'd have to talk to 19Sheridan57 and ask
how many companies he contacted but every one of them said no for the reasons I mentioned above and why I said you'd have
find something aftermarket or like you, find a new/old stock barrel like you did.
The original poster, Mr Douglas, who's name in several forms was unmentionable on GTA, I believe is now deceased. Someone on
another forum mentioned having not seen him posting on the AAC in quite awhile so I started searching the names he used. After coming
across this complaint about his company on the BBB where he replied stating he'd been in and out of the hospital dealing with medical
issues: https://www.bbb.org/us/tx/fort-worth/profile/gunsmiths/rane-air-repairs-0825-1000175567/complaints (https://www.bbb.org/us/tx/fort-worth/profile/gunsmiths/rane-air-repairs-0825-1000175567/complaints)
I went digging using his real name and found this obituary, which I believe is him, from February of 2020:
https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/name/paul-self-obituary?pid=195367544 (https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/name/paul-self-obituary?pid=195367544)
Yes, I spent a LOT of time writing, e mailing, calling here & abroad to come up with a company who was willing to make rifles in .20. I was wanting finished rifles, & not only barrels. I had my hopes up since that was just after Webley VMX rifles , made by Hatsan , were sold in .20. Crosman was one of the very few who would NOT even take the time to talk or e mail me. I don't think the original poster had anything going with Crosman, either, since he had a very poor reputation in the air gun world. He wanted a DEPOSIT for these future barrels that Crosman was supposedly going to make. NO WAY I was sending him any money. He bought a lot of the VMX's , modified [ butchered ] them & sold them under different user names & e mail addresses. One Chinese company offered a finished product , but a required minimum order was needed. [ 500-1000 ]
Also, JSB came out with the new, heavier .20 pellet that I tested for them . It shot very well in my .20 VMX & I was hoping to get air gun manufacturers interested in new offerings. Basically, it all turned out to be a big waste of time !
But there are some rifles in this caliber out there. Of course, the Sheridan is the most popular, but a few are European made TWANGERS, & some are made in PCP .
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No cheap 5mm barrels likely from Crosman. I'd love to be wrong about that, but just don't see it happening.
Generally the only parts they have are for airguns they make. Would not see “drop in” Crosman 5mm barrels from Crosman unless there were Crosman’s being sold in 5mm.
They have contracts for LW barrels in other calibers...so at least they worked out some kind of bulk-price-deal for those. AirForce evidently made a bulk-buy connection that did include 5mm.
NOT being opposed to making money, they just don’t see the sales. Would be a few hard-core 5mm fans, not much hope for a 5mm popularity revival.
Even years ago, the only barrel blank suppliers were HW and LW..both once sold blanks, neither one were inexpensive (but LW doesn’t charge extra for the “odd ball” 5mm).
HW stopped selling blanks a long time back. Tim/MAC1 sold off his HW 5mm blanks maybe 10-12 years ago. HW still has some special order 5mm rifles listed, I assume they use HW barrels.
Who made the barrels for the “other” 5mm’s?
Sheridan certainly did make their own brass barrels. Sheridan always get love from U.S. shooters just by being a Sheridan. Even that brass barrel production has worn out and been junked long ago.
Hatsan did make 5mm airguns. Mostly for a contract with Webley (springer and PCP), but if Hatsan was set up for barrel production, they didn’t use it again.
Sumatra’s once came in 5mm, but no idea if the barrels were outsourced or not. Only reason there were Eun Jun 5mm pellets.
Never really sure about the Sterling barrels that came up for sale some years back...weren’t blanks, had some machining done to them...stopped most of the way to an end product. Were “leftovers” that never got put on rifles. Didn’t react fast enough, never ended up with one to use as a re-barrel.
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Hatsan, to the best of my knowledge, never made Hatsan branded rifles in .20. They only did for the Webley branded rifles and the random lame guess
is they got that barrel making equipment from Highland Outdoors, which is the company that bought out everything to do with the Webley & Scott name
when Webley went into receivership in 2005. Highland took over in 2006 and sometime after that, Hatsan started making air rifles for them.
AoA had the last of those .20 caliber Webley Valuemax rifles, denoted by the 1 piece cocking arms, on them and the build dates would at least give you
a ballpark idea of when Hatsan retired that equipment. Anyone's guess what happened to it after that, but it may well be scrap metal by now unless Highland
took it back with plans to potentially use it again in the future. I have 4 of them but mine are all older 2 piece cocking arm models made in 2011-2012.
For the little it's worth, Webley is now made in a brand new plant in India and they do list one air rifle, the Tomahawk but only in .177 and from the little I
could find, only sold in India at least for now??
https://webleyscott.in/
HW still makes some, Daystate did but not sure if they still do, Air Force has/had a PCP in the caliber. Most anymore seem to be custom builds using LW
barrels. Have one of those myself owning a custom built by Diana D34K Premium .20 caliber. Anymore, .20 is a niche caliber liked by many, but not nearly
enough to interest gun makers into taking the chance to build/market one.
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Since it was mentioned a couple times.....
The friend that machined me a .20 barrel for a Taipan Veteran told me the barrel was a product of the crosman/Sterling armament barrel fall out. But wasn't made by either company but rather Sterling had contracted Lothar Walther to make the barrels. Wish I could remember the details better but seems like Crosman picked up the rights to a Sterling designed gun, so also bought up a bunch of the barrels to go into the guns. I don't believe the venture ever produced any complete guns, and somehow the Sterling LWs, by way of Crosman, ended up for sale as complete blanks and/or partially machined blanks.
The .20 barrel in the Vet is scary good. As accurate as anything I've shot or own.
Back to the original topic, it would be very cool for Crosman to make some .20 barrels. It would also be really cool if they brought back the legendary Crosman Premiers from 20ish years ago that so many speak about in reverence. It would simply be great if Crosman Benjamin went back to it's roots and built and sold airguns made out of steel and wood right here in the USA.
The record for oldest thread resurrection?
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I would not expect anything from Crosman. They stay busy renaming Twanger rifles.
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Figured there would have to be 5mm fans reading these posts.
Not much chance of “cheap” 5mm barrels from Crosman. Current shortages really equate to making more of the most popular items when you can sell anything you make.
The 14.3gr. Premiers would be a re-re-revial (they did stop production and restart production before). Really would be surprised if they did that again.
Would be nice if Crosman exercised the “Sheridan” name (believe the still own that trademark just as they own “Benjamin”) on something nice in 5mm. Using “Sheridan” on a .22 version of the 2260 was kind of insulting to Sheridan fans.
Right now, if you want a 5mm, are going to have to pay someone to make one or have the tooling to DIY...and they will start with an LW blank.
For the $, of a re-barrel could likely buy a good Sheridan C and enjoy the 5mm in it’s “purest” form.
Interesting how pellet availability has a lot to do with caliber choice.
As popularity for the 5mm waned, the few pellets that stayed in production were for the most part the best 5mm pellets. Two JSB’s (13.7 and 15.9gr) and two H&N’s (11.4 and 13.6gr).
Right now, doesn’t seem to be any 5mm pellets “ready to ship”...some doubt all of the 4 will come back at all..not an attractive prospect for a new 5mm shooter.
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Let's see if I get this right...lol. Benjamin bought Sheridan, made minor changes, then Crosman bought Benjamin Sheridan which was pretty much the deathknell
for Sheridan's which happened not long after.
Seen it mentioned a couple 3 or 4 times now how shooters would love to see the Old Sheridan's revived and brought back in all their former brass made glory
but not likely to ever happen, especially since Crosman wouldn't even reply to 19Sheridan57's emails asking about the chance of them making a new .20 cal rifle.
They likely figure it would be a waste of time, money and effort but .20 caliber shooters can at least dream I guess...lol.
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Oddly enough when the Crosman Custom shop was in full swing, they offered L.W. barrels as an option.
... and Lothar Walther has .20 barrels currently in production. https://www.lothar-walther.com/gun-barrel-blanks/airgun-barrels/?p=1&o=1&n=12&f=6477 (https://www.lothar-walther.com/gun-barrel-blanks/airgun-barrels/?p=1&o=1&n=12&f=6477)
Seems like an easy enough match-up since they are already doing business together. a C.C.S. .20 option would only require Crosman to make a Bolt Probe to fit.
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At the time, I was trying to get any of them to commit to making just a Twanger. That seemed simple enough to me. Crosman would have probably been the easiest to come up with one, it seems.
If several countries around the world talked with me about it, it sure seems that they could at least reply or return a call.
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I will buy two
Mark Hogan
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At this point, if you want a good .20 barrel, order a 300mm LW barrel for the Leshiy (Classic) from Airgun Heaven- unless you need something longer.
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Not much has changed for 5mm fans the better in the last 11...considering pellet availability and the number of 5mm airguns for sale, it's gotten worse.
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I would have/ will buy a couple myself if I ever see them for sale. I do have one .20 barrel that I found for sale a few years ago.
I am not going to hold my breath though. ::)
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Short of guns still made in the caliber new, finding used ones on auction sites or forum classifieds, an aftermarket barrel like an LW
or similar and either machining yourself or having it done for you is about it.
Pellets? I don't picture H&N or JSB stopping production of the few they do make since they know there's still a market out there for them,
although they have downsized to the current few made. I have a healthy stash but I'm always buying a couple tins here and there to add
to what I have and I'm always wandering since there are a couple of rifles I still want in .20 to add to what I have.
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Keep buying them and they will keep making them!
I am a believer in the .20... but in a business sense, if there is no fast profit shown in manufacturing new ones (sit on the shelf) the manufacturers will cease production in favor of more lucrative calibers. They have no choice to stay alive today. ::)
Most new airgunners introduced in the last decade probably don't even know that caliber exists... if they do... understandably wonder "why"?
Savvy.....It is that simple... feed the masses!
Supply and demand
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I didn't until I joined GTA. Bought the first of those inexpensive Webley Valuemax rifles to try the caliber. Turned out those rifles
were hidden little gems, silly accurate and bought 3 more. Also added a Beeman R9 and R7, a Diana D34K and a Silver streak
since then and as mentioned, always adding a little at a time to the stash of pellets I have to feed them :)
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Not much has changed for 5mm fans the better in the last 11...considering pellet availability and the number of 5mm airguns for sale, it's gotten worse.
Hey now, the new JSB 15.89s in .20 a couple years ago was big news. And shocking really. I'm sure glad they did it, they are capable of a BC in the top 5 of everything that JSB makes, up to and including .25s and .30s. I've measured BC's for them in the same 0.045-0.049 range that JSB reports. That's at around 915fps, their BC is down around that of the JSB 18.13 in .22 (about 0.035) when going <870, at least from my gun/barrel. I almost wonder if some crazy haired JSB engineer/technician made them as his/her own little side/pet project and was surprised to find how well they shoot so they ended up being manufactured.
In fact, I had a really fun shooting session a few weeks back with the .20 Heavies at about 93 yards. Shot 5 of the condensed EBR practice cards (5 targets per card, 5 shots per target) and had 4 or 5 sub moa, 5 shot groups. And the sub moa groups were on the bull, not off in no-man's land. A couple were around 0.7moa and the others were just under at about 0.9moa.
Long live the .20!!!
(and I don't think Crosman's going to play anytime soon)
x2 the comment above, keep buying them, and they'll keep making em
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Not much has changed for 5mm fans the better in the last 11...considering pellet availability and the number of 5mm airguns for sale, it's gotten worse.
Hey now, the new JSB 15.89s in .20 a couple years ago was big news. And shocking really. I'm sure glad they did it, they are capable of a BC in the top 5 of everything that JSB makes, up to and including .25s and .30s. I've measured BC's for them in the same 0.045-0.049 range that JSB reports. That's at around 915fps, their BC is down around that of the JSB 18.13 in .22 (about 0.035) when going <870, at least from my gun/barrel. I almost wonder if some crazy haired JSB engineer/technician made them as his/her own little side/pet project and was surprised to find how well they shoot so they ended up being manufactured.
In fact, I had a really fun shooting session a few weeks back with the .20 Heavies at about 93 yards. Shot 5 of the condensed EBR practice cards (5 targets per card, 5 shots per target) and had 4 or 5 sub moa, 5 shot groups. And the sub moa groups were on the bull, not off in no-man's land. A couple were around 0.7moa and the others were just under at about 0.9moa.
Long live the .20!!!
(and I don't think Crosman's going to play anytime soon)
x2 the comment above, keep buying them, and they'll keep making em
What rifle were you shooting those Heavy .20's @ 93 yards out of ?
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Not much has changed for 5mm fans the better in the last 11...considering pellet availability and the number of 5mm airguns for sale, it's gotten worse.
Hey now, the new JSB 15.89s in .20 a couple years ago was big news. And shocking really. I'm sure glad they did it, they are capable of a BC in the top 5 of everything that JSB makes, up to and including .25s and .30s. I've measured BC's for them in the same 0.045-0.049 range that JSB reports. That's at around 915fps, their BC is down around that of the JSB 18.13 in .22 (about 0.035) when going <870, at least from my gun/barrel. I almost wonder if some crazy haired JSB engineer/technician made them as his/her own little side/pet project and was surprised to find how well they shoot so they ended up being manufactured.
In fact, I had a really fun shooting session a few weeks back with the .20 Heavies at about 93 yards. Shot 5 of the condensed EBR practice cards (5 targets per card, 5 shots per target) and had 4 or 5 sub moa, 5 shot groups. And the sub moa groups were on the bull, not off in no-man's land. A couple were around 0.7moa and the others were just under at about 0.9moa.
Long live the .20!!!
(and I don't think Crosman's going to play anytime soon)
x2 the comment above, keep buying them, and they'll keep making em
What rifle were you shooting those Heavy .20's @ 93 yards out of ?
93?? My Cheap Valuemax rifles will spit them nice but not 93 yards...lol. My guess is custom barreled PCP??
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Yes, custom barreled PCP. Veteran Short with the Sterling/LW/Benjamin barrel I mentioned earlier in the thread.
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LOVE my .20's and see no reason why one would make the gamble on an unproven barrel to save likely $50 or so ( Even tho Crosman does not make a .20 ) The LW or HW .20's shoot so dang well it is a case of buy once and ENJOY !!
You can have a low cost / quality air gun shoot very well !!! .. reason for shooting very well would be the BARREL being the most important part if seeking accuracy potential.
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Just to mention just how pellet dependent air gunning is...and how it’s more of a “sin” to waste harder to get 5mm pellets than easy to get .177’s/.22’s/.25’s.
So ended up with a lot of orphan tins of pellets over the years. Being 5mm, saved them (some of them for a long time).
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50973307456_647bb29648_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kEkwqy)DSCF2044 (https://flic.kr/p/2kEkwqy) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
WHAT is listed as available now in 5mm pellets is likely the cream of the crop. If you could find them in stock.
SOOOO...just about pandemic time...I got tired of singing happy birthday to the orphan 5mm’s. Were a waste of space if I didn’t shoot them.
I would NOT have done all this if it were not a 5mm.
Did reconvert the HW rebarrled HPA QB 5mm back to 12gr. CO2. Found that low speeds did most of the above pellets shoot at least “usefully” well the slower they shot. Many of those were a total failure when driven faster.
Being lazy, was just easier to “top swap” the QB back to co2 and put a different (more popular caliber) “top” on the HPA set up.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1961/45075288022_95e909f5b6.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2bF9CJj)DSCN1436 (https://flic.kr/p/2bF9CJj) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flick
Low speed even for a co2 set up….power ranged from 9.2 to 11.6 foot pounds, depending on the pellet used (the rifle wasn’t changed).
Of what I still had of the old 5mm pellets, ran a quick co2 test at 25 yards. 1O shot groups on ¼” graph paper.
A-D are still cataloged, although none of them are listed as ready to ship.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50072459556_f5097a3423.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jhJrJd)DSCN2812 (https://flic.kr/p/2jhJrJd) by Robert Dean (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144930793@N07/), on Flickr
Considering the energy and the range I’d be shooting… all were at least “useful” accuracy.
Took me almost 2 years to usefully shoot up most of the orphans (saving the JSB’s for other rifles)...and low speed co2 pretty much made it possible to use them usefully.
(still have a a good sized stash of the Benjamin Black Tin 14.3’s….so the co2 QB co2 will stay co2 for awhile longer.)
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Have no idea when the “good” 5mm pellets are going to be in stock again. Don’t even know which will survive or even “if” they’ll come back.
When a maker can sell all of his production, they tend to fill their production time making the most popular/best selling pellets and ignore the slow sellers.
Seems to be the reason .177 choices came back first…..22’s second….world wide, that’s the two most popular (but not ALL of those choices came back). .25’s are starting to show up and ship.
Even when (if) things get back to 2019 type normal...really can’t predict where the 5mm is going to fit in. A “pity” offering (like Crosman)?
Once the production dies wear out….maker has to decide if it’s worth replacing or just shutting down the production in favor of something that sells better.
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Sitting on @ 46 tins of JSB 13.73's alone ..... Not going to fret one bit. Others in caliber 20+ tins worth
By the time I shoot all those my competitive FT days will be in the rear view mirror. I seldom shoot .20 as a Plinking / Hunting caliber being they shoot so dang well as a Hunter class Field Target PCP pellet at >20 fpe I save them for that duty pretty much.
Also noting in having likely 100+ tins of combined .177 / 22 / 25 & 30 along with slugs find myself as MOST DO shooting the more established calibers for recreational shooting.
Have invested into laying low and isolated from the current or future shortages life in good in the AG world.
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Scott:
In a way, your last post kind of helps sum up the state of 5mm’s. MOST of this long string of posts are from 5mm fans that already have a 5mm and already have a stash of 5mm pellets.
For a new guy, who has the itch to try the 5mm, but has to start flat-footed today, it’s not going to be cheap or easy.
1. Are no “entry level” 5mm’s (lets call that sub $500 for a PCP).
2. Crosman is NOT going to come to the rescue with a cheap drop in 5mm barrel.
3. Are some few high priced/semi custom rifles….likely not real attractive to a new shooter who just want to try the caliber.
4. Few would want to spend the $$ to custom LW re-barrel (and whatever bolt adjustments needed) just to try at 5mm. Even DIY, likely cost me near 250% of the QB cost back then….would be more like 50-70% of the cost for something like a new M-Rod.
5. Even if you did buy/make one, starting “flat footed” buying pellets today would be frustrating. The 5mm fans shooting 5mm are doing it from per-bought pellet stashes.
To be honest….as a new guy with budget limits….I’d pass.
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Scott:
In a way, your last post kind of helps sum up the state of 5mm’s. MOST of this long string of posts are from 5mm fans that already have a 5mm and already have a stash of 5mm pellets.
For a new guy, who has the itch to try the 5mm, but has to start flat-footed today, it’s not going to be cheap or easy.
1. Are no “entry level” 5mm’s (lets call that sub $500 for a PCP).
2. Crosman is NOT going to come to the rescue with a cheap drop in 5mm barrel.
3. Are some few high priced/semi custom rifles….likely not real attractive to a new shooter who just want to try the caliber.
4. Few would want to spend the $$ to custom LW re-barrel (and whatever bolt adjustments needed) just to try at 5mm. Even DIY, likely cost me near 250% of the QB cost back then….would be more like 50-70% of the cost for something like a new M-Rod.
5. Even if you did buy/make one, starting “flat footed” buying pellets today would be frustrating. The 5mm fans shooting 5mm are doing it from per-bought pellet stashes.
To be honest….as a new guy with budget limits….I’d pass.
My post was one of being realistic on the when and why I use .20 cal PCP's .... That said would agree with your assessment stated one post up 8)
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Don't think I saw mention of the Air Force options. An air force of some variety is likely the cheapest way to be shooting a .20 within a few weeks time, assuming one can find some pellets.
Thinking one of the Talon types were in the $500-700 range last time I looked.
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LOVE my .20's and see no reason why one would make the gamble on an unproven barrel to save likely $50 or so ( Even tho Crosman does not make a .20 ) The LW or HW .20's shoot so dang well it is a case of buy once and ENJOY !!
You can have a low cost / quality air gun shoot very well !!! .. reason for shooting very well would be the BARREL being the most important part if seeking accuracy potential.
well I do understand the sentiment but I am pretty impressed with the barrels on my Maxi triad... two .22 one needed minor leade tuning & other fixed minor miscut chamber... the .177 no tuning was needed... So yep would love a .20 Crosman barreled Max ...
so do I want Crosman to make a .20..? and keep my 362-20 all Crosman..? like my soon to be 362 & 362-17 heck yes 8) ;D ;)
lots of folk just might like having their 1320 be all crosman... and have the L.W. be a custom shop option.. ;)
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There's easy paths forward. Some manufacturers make custom molds.
We have options for superlative .20 barrels.
So why not make a slug-shooter .20? This has been on my radar a long time, and my Leshiy has easily-available .20 barrels and the easiest caliber swap in PCP airgunning.
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There's easy paths forward. Some manufacturers make custom molds.
We have options for superlative .20 barrels.
So why not make a slug-shooter .20? This has been on my radar a long time, and my Leshiy has easily-available .20 barrels and the easiest caliber swap in PCP airgunning.
As one who tested the .20 slugs in various weights for NSA ... in my testing at low as well 40fpe + power the accuracy was not good as hoped. Due to data collected from numerous Beta testers NSA put producing .20 slugs on the back shelf for another day.
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So what if they just started making consistently accurate barrels with clean rifling and even crowns? In .177 and .22 at least? Can we pass that info along to them? ;D
Beat me to it. I've owned a large number of crosman barrels over the past 4 years. None of them shot well. That really says a lot about how poor those barrels are. I'd prefer a smooth bore at this point, just skip the rifling altogehter.
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There's easy paths forward. Some manufacturers make custom molds.
We have options for superlative .20 barrels.
So why not make a slug-shooter .20? This has been on my radar a long time, and my Leshiy has easily-available .20 barrels and the easiest caliber swap in PCP airgunning.
Most makers already took what they considered the "easy paths forward". The market was leaning more and more toward .22, .25, then PCP's, bigger calibers and more power. Gun makers, except for a small few, stopped making them and pellet makers followed suit to the point you now see the very little you do for .20 caliber pellets. 2 from H&N, 2 from JSB, Predator Polymags and Benjamin Domes. The Daystate branded stuff is nothing more than rebranded H&N and JSB. Heck, Weihrauch even has their own although again, they're just rebranded H&N and only AoA had them. They're not going to bring back a new entry level rifle or a PCP in the caliber because none of them see a market for it or profit to be made considering the very small following.
Most even shooting .20 anymore either bought one of the very few still being made or had guns custom made.
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Airforce offers the Talon and Condor in .20...
https://www.airforceairguns.com/AirForce-Airguns-Talon-Air-Rifle-p/u20042.htm (https://www.airforceairguns.com/AirForce-Airguns-Talon-Air-Rifle-p/u20042.htm)
https://www.airforceairguns.com/AirForce-Airguns-Condor-Air-Rifle-p/u20432.htm (https://www.airforceairguns.com/AirForce-Airguns-Condor-Air-Rifle-p/u20432.htm)
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Yes this is an old thread. However, I would very much would love a cheaper option then the Walther .20cal barrels. Especially now that Crosman introduced the 362, I don't understand why they just don't market the .20cal. If they took a Bob Beeman approach to marketing the 5mm (maybe) they would re-energize the caliber? I would take anyday a .20cal over .22 and definitely over .177. Just a perfect caliber and if heavily marketed so pellet manufacturers produced a wide range of size/shapes/weights that would be the only caliber I would buy, especially for mid-powered AGs. So a long story short: a big yes for .20cal barrels...
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Yup it is like Benjamin / Crosman put the Sheridan most likely in the same place Jimmy Hoffa may be stashed :-\
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Count me in for 2 or 3.
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Yes this is an old thread. However, I would very much would love a cheaper option then the Walther .20cal barrels. Especially now that Crosman introduced the 362, I don't understand why they just don't market the .20cal. If they took a Bob Beeman approach to marketing the 5mm (maybe) they would re-energize the caliber? I would take any day a .20cal over .22 and definitely over .177. Just a perfect caliber and if heavily marketed so pellet manufacturers produced a wide range of size/shapes/weights that would be the only caliber I would buy, especially for mid-powered AGs. So a long story short: a big yes for .20cal barrels...
A good many share your thoughts. Sadly, the air gun makers don't and why only a few companies still do. They see more profit in .177, .22, PCP. Pellet makers won't because they don't see a huge demand
let alone gun makers bringing a new rifle or 2 or even 3 to market to even consider bringing a new pellet or even 2 back.
It's what 19Sheridan57 was trying to do with his email campaign to get companies to consider the idea of bringing a new entry level .20 caliber to market and as he already stated, Crosman never even bothered to reply to his email and while other companies at least had the decency to, it was basically a nicely worded "Oh h3ll no"...lol.
While I may well be wrong, Webley & Scott with Hatsan building the rifles, was the last company to offer an entry level .20. They stopped building those a few years ago and the last seller to have any was a seller on Amazon who was selling off his last stock for $99.99 each. I have 4 of them and by most accounts from the shooters who actually bought one, they were hidden little gems that were silly accurate, plenty of power and would easily shoot all of the few pellets in .20 still being made.
The rest is already spelled out here which leaves you either hunting for older .20 cal rifles or custom building what you might want using LW barrels for it.
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Airforce offers the Talon and Condor in .20...
https://www.airforceairguns.com/AirForce-Airguns-Talon-Air-Rifle-p/u20042.htm (https://www.airforceairguns.com/AirForce-Airguns-Talon-Air-Rifle-p/u20042.htm)
https://www.airforceairguns.com/AirForce-Airguns-Condor-Air-Rifle-p/u20432.htm (https://www.airforceairguns.com/AirForce-Airguns-Condor-Air-Rifle-p/u20432.htm)
And EdGun offers the Leshiy in .20.
In fact, you can buy the barrels from Airgun Heaven: https://airgunheaven.com/en/airgun-rifles?f%5B0%5D=field_type_luchtbuks%3A3144&f%5B1%5D=field_product%253Afield_size%3A107. (https://airgunheaven.com/en/airgun-rifles?f%5B0%5D=field_type_luchtbuks%3A3144&f%5B1%5D=field_product%253Afield_size%3A107.) 250mm is under $120, 350mm is under $170.
These aren't overly expensive in the era of $6 coffee and $10 burgers.