GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: oldnamvet on April 27, 2014, 11:52:25 PM
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20+ years ago when I got my 392 and 1377, I heard nothing about any quality issues. Naturally, the amount of electronic communications and availability of on-line evaluations was not the same as today. What I wonder is, was the quality always as it seems to be today or did something change over the years? Growing up I never heard of anyone in my group of friends having quality problems with airguns. Pellet rifles that I purchased worked great right out of the box as did my friends. If something happened, what and when was it?
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What happened? GREED! The CEO wants to make more money. Pump them out, send them to Walmart and sell, sell, sell. It is like everything you touch today, it is GREED!
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Or the expectations and standards were not as high as they are today in the world of airgunning. ??? Just guessing, I wouldn't know.
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While I understand the guns are being built to a price point, I don't think that is the major issue..
I think it is a largely combination of 2 factors,
1 being the exchange of information exchange between THOUSANDS of people world wide, not just the people around the neighborhood.
And 2, the squeaky wheel syndrome.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Thousands of people write about having problems, but tens of thousands of people never write about having a great out of the box gun that shoots hundreds of rounds a month for 40 years with no issues..
Then there are the people that buy a $24 p17, and expect it to compare with a $450 p1, and complain when a .50cent o-ring on the piston fails because of a small bur on the air port on the p17.
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Ian, you hit it, bro. When I am evaluating something, I throw out the worst and best reviews. Then I look for a trend. If satisfied customers never leave feedback the story is imcomplete.
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If I remember correctly Mac1 did state they are not what the used to be.
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I will say in my opinion that the 2200/2100 of the old days was made with more care in my eyes. I have run across many of the older ones
over the years and they seemed to not let one with problems thru and had a high level of QC.
I understand going to the plastic piston to meet a price point, but why get rid of the wiper(on the 13xxs also).
the new pump cup and nose on the valve do not match on the old ones they did... change the cup, change the valve nose or it looks like you do not
care...
Mine when I picked it up had a bent piston because it hit the valve way to soon. I tune mine any ways but letting obvious low Q.C show to me
is a problem.
I still like the 2100 but know if I get a new one I may have to work on it...
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If I remember correctly Mac1 did state they are not what the used to be.
That is true, you went from a hand assembled, gun built by 1 person from the bins of parts in front of him or her, (then multiply that by 20 or so people working in the shop) in the 1960's
To an assembly line built gun assembled by people that are there just to get a paycheck.
Not saying that everyone there is in that category, but you get what you pay for, and they do build it for a price point.
No longer is there a guy standing over the rifling machine inspecting every barrel off the line, now it is a computer , or some 18 year old with earbuds in his ears listening to a group called 'my chemical romance" on his ipod.
Instead of paying attention to the machine in front of him.
Now, a gun that cost say $40 in 1970, when you adjust it for inflation, would cost
$247 in 2014 currency.
Using the P17 as a example, as of today, it retails for $40 at PA.
Adjusted for inflation, In 1970, it would have cost $6.47.
I look at ham radio, the price of a good computerized 2m handheld used to be $250 or more (I remember paying $418 for an icom 2sra) in the 1990's
Now you can get a good dual band handy talkie for $49 that does more than the icom ever did.
Cars, look at them.
They used to cost under $10,000 new. The first over 10k car I saw was in 1982 ish. (Excluding high end models and exotics)
When I was growing up if it had 100,000 miles on it it was worn out.
Now you don't do a tuneup on one until 100,000
And find a car over 4 years old that don't have 100,000+ on it..
Hard to do..
I think we as consumers EXPECT more for less money.
This is definitely a hobby where you get what you pay for, if you pay $40 for a gun, expect it.
If you pay $1000 for a gun, then you should expect to get a different level of care and quality in what you pay for.
Look at chevette, and corvette, both made by the same company, both have 4 wheels and get you from point a to point b,
But the quality and style you travel in cost more...
I don't think it just happened all at once, I think it happened slowly, just like everything, "ah, they won't notice 2 bad barrels, then 4, then 16, then more, and so on..
If we hold their feet to the fire, they either will improve quality, or drop the item in question from their product line because "it is too expensive to produce" now.
Sorry to have made a left turn there...
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I have a 1377 made in Nov. 1994. The grip frame has 1/2 of a "quick connect pin" hole in front of the rear frame screw hole. One side of the frame has the hole and the other doesn't.
I'm about ready to send it back. ::)
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I have a 1377 made in Nov. 1994. The grip frame has 1/2 of a "quick connect pin" hole in front of the rear frame screw hole. One side of the frame has the hole and the other doesn't.
I'm about ready to send it back. ::)
After 20 years?
Thats a good airgun warranty..
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What changed was pride in workmanship,you pay an employee min wage with no experience in craftsmanship and guess what??You get a product that gets returned because something didn't fit right or was installed wrong.Most companies are looking for a "passable" product for as little as possible.Along with cheap production comes poor durability and products that simply don't last as long as they would be expected to.I notice lately that many airguns are being marketed on looks,like nifty futuristic stocks and plastic junk that quiets the report. I realize there is a place for plastic and synthetic materials but I would say a gun should not contain more than 50% of it..hahaha Oh well,I pay for quality and have just had to get used to it in the past 10 or so years.Thats my rant,Cheers 8)
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All great answers. I remember reading an opinion piece years ago by an economist titled something like ," Good is the new great" that essentially talks about loss of quality in manufacturing . The problem stems from that fact that consumer driven cultures will drive the price point down to where manufacturers sacrifice quality to effectively compete price wise. Companies resort to outsourcing production, using lower cost materials, and standardizing parts to facilitate production. We can cry about the loss of the Blue Streak/Silver Streak and the eventual loss of the 392/397, but ultimately Crosman is not selling them in the same numbers as they were in their heyday, mainly because the casual customer is focusing on the "FPS" numbers and low price points.Compared to similar guns, the inherent cost of materials is going to more than the plastic/synthetic stock springer competitors. There is also the pressure of big box stores of dictating the price point of an airgun manufacturers offerings . (is is simple economics either sell a high quality gun at a price point that may move some units or offer a lower price gun that can easily be sold at a big box store selling many units). So, for me I am glad that Crosman is still making them (for the record I have a newer 392 with no quality issues)
For example, Festool makes world class top quality wood working power tools. Many top wood workers swear by them. But for the casual weekend warrior, do you buy a German made power drill for $500 that will last many decades or do you go to Home Depot, Wal-Mart, et al and by a power drill for a fraction of the cost. Sure it may not last as long as the Festool but it is at a price point that it can be easily replaced.
This is the unfortunate effects of a throw away culture. As an aside, I tend to search for quality hand tools at yard/estate sales and looking for older airguns as my way of preserving a part of a quality manufacturing.
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+1 on Festools 8)
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I would say a few variables have changed this and maybe some corporate greed with less QC.
1st I would say the internet has revolutionized consumer buying like no other! From being able to research; look at feedback; and share thoughts overall has made purchasing very informative. I am surprised retail stores still exist rather than warehouses from online buying with no store fronts.
2nd I would say as the new generation emerges in the business world that have had golden spoons laid to their mouths they have not learned hard work and the betterment of a entity through sacrifice.......ie corporate greed as mentioned by another poster.
3rd with so many forums and review sites you certainly will hear alot more negativity I believe and in other ways postive on a product. You have to decipher through it all as an informed consumer to make a decision to buy or not.
Overall, I think these are very well made still. Maybe not like they were 40 years ago but still in the grand scheme of things nice little pistols and rifles for sure.
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My new Daisy 880 has obvious manufacturing shortcomings, such as the sleasy tin pellet slide. But the darn thing looks good and shoots better and with 10 pumps packs a wallop. It seems very accurate for an off-the-shelf condition gun. I don't shoot bbs. Seems to like Crosman Destroyers. Considering the price its a heck of a buy. If made in US it would be a $100 gun. I was going thru a 1972 Gun Digest this AM. Lowest prices on domestic air rifles was about $30. Corrected for inflation, that would be in the $250 - $300 range today.
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They just don't make them like they used too. ;)
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I've come to one conclusion... Yes overall QC was better generally for products in general, but that doesn't mean that that product was quality. Like nothing in AG'ing from 30 years ago would compare with the fit and finish a AA TX200 of today. If a 392 or 2100 was considered quality back then... Then my point proven and case closed which was the different level of expectations and standards of today and back then. Even the first gen HW77 are ugly and don't compare to an HW97 in anyway as far as looks and capability. :o
And the gap between quality products and crappy products has only gotten larger! ala the 99% vs 1% dilemma our world faces today.
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I just bought a 2250 and it was a real friday afternoon job. Sloppy things like finger tight and cross threaded screws, the bolt handle was so bad it wont screw in more than 1 turn, it went from shooting penny size groups to saucer size within 100 pellets and needed a new valve and rebuild right out of the box. The hammer was covered in some kind of hardened congealed grease where it had sat in a tray, and the old valve is catching inside when you depress the pin. It's a shame because the breech and tube are quite nicely finished but other parts are very bad, the barrel & hammer are sobadly striated they need re finishing for example. I was planning on a Marauder for an upgrade, same company but I hope Benjamin have better QA .
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but I hope Benjamin have better QA . You very funny fella. Benjamin is made by Crosman.
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I know and said so, but it's a seperate division with different practices perhaps, and is used as a high end brand name for Crosmans better products, a bit like VW and Bentley, so hopefully more stringent quality control.