GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: TooJung2Die on April 25, 2014, 02:30:46 PM
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I couldn't stop myself. $75 bucks and free shipping from Wally World. I need a new project gun. Since this is a clone of the Diana RWS 34 and I love my Germans I had to see what you get for one third the price.
Right out of the box I'm pretty impressed. Miraculously it survived the shipping to my door undamaged. They didn't double box it or even tape the box closed! Fit and finish are better than I expected. The shaping of the shoulder pad to the stock is hurried looking but that's the only complaint so far.
It is noisy when cocking and uncocking, kind of a groan. Sounds like a tight or dry piston seal. Like it's distant German cousin it has an automatic safety, hence no anti-bear trap. Nice.
I haven't shot it yet. Still need to clean the barrel. The instructions specifically tell you to clean the barrel first. Good advice you often don't see in a new gun instructions. I'm going to shoot it as-is to get some baseline data before I tear into it. The breach seal looks like it can use a shim.
Last thing, the trigger is very nice without any adjustment. Wow, a real two stage trigger, not the awful trigger I'm used to getting on Gamo/Crosman. Is this a copy of the T05?
Attach photos or it didn't happen so here ya go...
Jon
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Something else you'll notice not normal with knock-off guns. The scope ain't all that bad for what it is. I did the delrin top hat and reversed piston sleeve thing to mine. Much nicer cocking and shooting and a little less hold sensitive. I tried a lot of pellets in it. Believe it or not, it likes the cheap Winchester domes from TSC. 500 for $4.99. I thought the trigger was a bit heavy for my taste so I replaced the first vertical one you see when you look in the back of the action with half of one from an ink pen. A custom made spring compressor adaptor will serve you well.
Good luck, I hope you enjoy yours as we do.
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Still can't believe scope and gun for $75!!
Enjoy Jon and let us know how the lady behaves!!
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Cool; I just got one too from WM. Haven't shot it yet either because I haven't had time to clean it yet; hopefully will be able to and shoot it today but its raining. It's my first break barrel springer so I have nothing to compare it to for references or comparisons, but common sense seems to point its price to value ratio grossly in the consumers favor for at least my initial inspection of external fit and finish. How it will actually perform will make it or break it I guess. I am hoping to put the $50 Hawke 3-9X40AO on it from eabco. I'll be watching your lead to see what areas you think need improvement or adjustment. I'll have to make a spring compressor to take all the way down. I've herd about the top hat from Mike Melick but nothing else really. Not sure what is interchangeable with the model RWS 34. I was happy with the way mine was shipped too. It wasn't one of those you see on the shelves that had been ripped open and taped back together a bunch of times. It was pristine in crisp cardboard double boxed. My shoulder pad looks hurried too in the finish but way more wood and metal than anticipated. I'll be looking forward to your posts with your thoughts on it.
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The tophat and sleeve is very easy to do. Need a spring compressor. Remember to get rid of sharp edges and debure clean her up lube and have fun. If it has barrel droop dont get upset as this is easily taken care of. Just keep in mind that the people here will help all they can. Also Mike at FD would be my first contact. The man knows these guns and he is always happy to share.Ihave a Blackhawk and my daughter has an AirhawkAnd we love them.
Tommy
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I got inspired to go out and shoot mine. Still likes winnies. Trigger feels much better than betty Lou's, she likes a little harder, longer pull. CPHP are a quarter @ 35yds. Winnies are a dime as long as you remember the soft hold. Lots of kick, the scope knocked my hat off.
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What is this delrin top hat and reversed sleeve of which you speak? Pray tell where I may come by such treasure?
;)
I'm looking at Flying Dragon's website and don't see any tune up parts for sale.
Jon
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You need to call or email Mike
Tommy
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Call Mike and talk to him. He sells the top hat for $15. Then you take the piston sleeve out and open the hole to fit down over the spring guide. Basically, you are putting it back in backwards. Be careful putting the cocking linkage in so you don't deform the sleeve. You also have to trim about 3/8 inch off of the spring guide that goes up into the spring. Clean the trimmed edge all up and do your normal tune things. It takes all that grindy groany stuff out and makes it nice and smooth. polish up you spring ends and put moly paste on them so they spin smoothly. Heavy tar the spring. All the twang will be gone leaving you with a solid thwack.
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Boy was this barrel dirty. I ran over a hundred patches through it. The first few came out black and then the color turned rust brown. After an hour of using patches I used a nylon brush in between patches. Still dirty so I ran a brass brush through. Eventually the patches came out clean.
I feel jinxed. First the bad barrel on the Fury, then the bad barrel on the 1377. Both have new barrels now. Now this gun. There is a visible tight ridge about 1 inch past the breech. The rest of the barrel to the muzzle feels fine. I used JB bore compound on a tight patch on a jag to try to knock down the ridge. Doesn't seem to have any effect. I think I need something more aggressive. Like what? Any ideas?
I shot it a few times at sundown. There was a very loud report for the first four or five shots and then it settled down. Using my least favorite pellet, Crosman pointed hunters, it shot scattergun patterns at 10 yards. The stock screws were all loose so I tightened them. I had to adjust the iron sights for a POI very low and very far left. This isn't caused by droop because the sights are on the barrel. It needs a new crown. Looking at the crown using a jewelers loupe it is rough.
How do you get the plastic front sight off without damage so you can get to the crown?
Jon
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Jon,
Remove the little set screw from the plastic front sight housing. then use a piece of soft wood or plastic (so you don't scratch the barrel) and tap the plastic housing off the barrel. Keep switching sides that you tap on to keep it from binding. The set screw probably left a indent and burr on the barrel so it will be hard to get it started.
Best of luck with the new rifle.
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Remove the little set screw from the plastic front sight housing.
I feel stupid. I didn't notice the setscrew. I found the EVP diagrams for the Air Hawk and the XS25. Same gun from what I've learned and see in the diagrams.
Good news. It averages 899 fps with 8.3 gr RWS Superdome. Not good are the groups. Still need to crown the barrel. Still haven't figured out how to smooth out the ridge in the barrel. If it doesn't settle down and shoot like other Air Hawks, back to Walmart it goes.
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I just ordred one from Wally world as well. I was looking for a good gateway gun and this seem to be about the best example of one:
Good quality, simple and cheap.
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I just ordred one from Wally world as well. I was looking for a good gateway gun and this seem to be about the best example of one:
Good quality, simple and cheap.
I sincerely hope that's true for you. I crowned the barrel and there was no change. I'm done trying to fix defective barrels. That's the heart of the gun. If the barrel's bore is defective there's no amount of tuning that will fix it.
I hope I'm done with this run of bad luck with barrels. The last airgun I bought new that didn't require extensive work to make it shoot right was the Diana RWS 34. This Air Hawk is going back to where I bought it today.
Jon
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I just ordred one from Wally world as well. I was looking for a good gateway gun and this seem to be about the best example of one:
Good quality, simple and cheap.
I sincerely hope that's true for you. I crowned the barrel and there was no change. I'm done trying to fix defective barrels. That's the heart of the gun. If the barrel's bore is defective there's no amount of tuning that will fix it.
I hope I'm done with this run of bad luck with barrels. The last airgun I bought new that didn't require extensive work to make it shoot right was the Diana RWS 34. This Air Hawk is going back to where I bought it today.
Jon
Not sure the exact situation you are dealing with is but the most every review of the gun is good so you might have just gotten a bad one. If mine doesn't shoot right I will exchange it for a different one.
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I know I'll be kicking myself if I miss out on this deal so I ordered another one. Fingers crossed I get a good one this time!
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Third time is the charm? (Fingers still tightly crossed) The second Air Hawk I ordered Site to Store a month ago never arrived. It got lost in a Walmart distribution center and never showed up at my local store. I didn't want to refund and reorder because the price has gone back up. So I called customer service and they shipped another Air Hawk. This one arrived via Fedex in two days.
If the first one I got was made on Friday afternoon, the one they sent this time was made on Wednesday morning. The wood is close to the nicest grained Chinese beech I've seen. The barrel only needed 7 patches to clean it. No rust and an hour of work like the last Air Hawk. Even the rubber butt pad fit is better.
It only needed a few clicks on the iron sights to get the groups on target, unlike the other one which I had to max out for windage and elevation. It isn't grouping well yet but I'm using my cheapest and least favorite Gamo pellet for the break-in. I have high hopes that it will tighten up with the right pellets.
This is more like what I originally expected. After at least a tin of pellets through it I'll give it a thorough internal inspection, deburr and lube. Then it'll get a scope. I have a new Bushnell Banner 3x-9x-40 looking for a home. :)
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One of the air hawks I dad would not group but I found after talking to Mike M, that some times the part of the barrel that is pressed into the breach gets squeezed to tight and it makes the first couple of inches of the barrel just like you choked it so once the pellet gets past this spot the barrel is not as tight and opens up letting ( it doesn't touch the rifling as tight as it should ) the pellet bounces all the way down the barrel and ends up shooting like a shotgun . The fix was to take some fine paper ( I used a chain saw file wrapped with some 600 paper) and worked the breach end out so it was no longer tight and wow the rifle now shoots like it is on rails and very accurate. Thanks Mike M. for the help Howie1a
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That's the kind of suggestion I was looking for last month. :'( I was asking for a way to remove a tight visible ridge in the rifling just inside the barrel near the breech. That might've saved the barrel on the Air Hawk I returned. Or it may never have shot well. You don't like seeing rust coming out when you clean a barrel the first time.
Anyway, I'm happy I returned the first Air Hawk. The barrel on this Air Hawk has no defects I can detect so far. After shooting a few hundred junk pellets I shot some CPHP and it punched out a dime size hole using the iron sights. This is good. :)
The first trigger stage is long and very creepy so last night I tuned up the trigger. Much smoother now. I'm undecided about doing the second screw mod. Is it worth it or is the T05 good enough as is? I can get used to the long first stage if need be.
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the second screw mod is worth every penny. i have it on mine and you wouldn't believe the difference.
as to your other question, the airhawk is a direct clone of the d34. anything that will fit the 34, will fit the airhawk and the xs-25.
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another thing. if it's "groaning" when you cock it, it means that it needs to be lubed. if you're capable, tear it down and give ti a t least a good lube tune. that'll quiet things down.
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another thing. if it's "groaning" when you cock it, it means that it needs to be lubed. if you're capable, tear it down and give ti a t least a good lube tune. that'll quiet things down.
That was the Air Hawk I returned. It had a defective barrel so it went back. Most likely the groan was a tight piston seal. They don't bother to fit piston seals at the factory. Judging by how it dieseled there was no lack of lube. Moot point anyway.
the second screw mod is worth every penny. i have it on mine and you wouldn't believe the difference.
I didn't know you could buy the second screw mod. I'll mod it myself if I decide to go that route. It's easy to do.
It's going much better with the current Air Hawk. The trigger job eliminated the first stage creep. Second stage is nice and crisp. I replaced the large trigger spring with a shorter, lighter spring. It's grouping well with CPHP but the groups open up after a couple hundred shots. Running a couple of goo-gone patches through the bore brings out flakes of lead and the groups tighten up. I think the leading with subside with time and after a JB bore paste treatment or two.
The muzzle needed a new crown. It looked like the bore was rifled after the muzzle was crowned. ??? Every groove had a tiny burr protruding outwards. The new crown is sharp and bright.
I decided to try the 4x30 scope that came with the Air Hawk before mounting the Bushnell. Discovered there was some droop, about 8" at 15 yards. Instead of compensating with the scope mount I elected to bend the barrel. Didn't take much to bring the POI in line with the POA.
The stock screws were loose from the factory so they get Loctite after the stock goes back on. I really like the wood and the color of this stock but the finish was very thin and dull. I'm applying several coats of Tru Oil and Armor All. It looks awesome after just a couple of coats.
I have the front sight off since working the crown. I'm undecided whether to leave it off, put it back on (it's visible through the scope), or put on a muzzle brake I have from a Remington Summit. I found the breech pivot screw had come loose so that went back together with Loctite.
Unlike the first Air Hawk this one has a properly shimmed breech seal. After I'm satisfied with the basics it'll get torn down. I have a selection of Vortek piston seals if needed and I plan on calling Mike Melick for one of his top hats.
I was looking for a project and now I have several. In addition to this Air Hawk there's a Crosman 101 all torn down waiting for parts on my bench and a '74 Sheridan Blue Streak stock I said I would refinish for a friend. There's always some thing that I want to do to nearly every airgun and that doesn't include the WWII firearms I began collecting recently. I hardly have time to shoot! :) :) :)
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I have two Airhawks and both are very good shooters. I can shoot paintballs off of golf tees at 30 yards all day long with either one.
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As most know, Betty Lou and I have several pairs of guns and we like to have little competitions. We bought the airhawks last year on Black Friday. We have several guns that we like very well, some more than others. We put the Mike Mellick Top Hats in and reversed the piston sleeves. Cocking and firing was real smooth. The triggers were quite heavy. I did the front screw on mine because I like a much shorter pull than Betty Lou does. We didn't do the back screw or spring or anything else for that matter, Just basic clean, deburr and lube. These guns fell down our list of favorites for the simple fact that Betty Lou struggled cocking hers. After 10 or 12 shots she was always ready for something easier. After all, airgunning should be fun and not work. Betty Lou is, by no means, a weenie nor a complainer. We have just as much, if not more, fun plinking at shorter distances (20 ft out to 25 yds.) We have a Crosman Mendoza RM377 and Betty Lou likes it a lot and I went on a search for something compaired to that and I think I've found it. We will be replacing the Airhawks with a couple Flying Dragon basic tuned XS-12's.
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Hi the B25 or air hawk is a clone of the RWS 34 but their is some difference the stock is not interchangeable ( I make stocks ) you will need to do some mods to be able to use a B25 stock on a rws 34 or a RWS 34 stock on a B25 they are close but different the cocking slot is different and the cocking linkage is a2 piece on the B25 and a 1 piece on the RWS that changes the slot in the stock also the B25 needs a shelf for the cocking arm to ride on that is not in the 34 , It is close but their are some differences in the trigger group too like the 34 trigger is plastic and the B25 is aluminum, It is a very good gun but I still feel the 34 is better. Howie1a
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Bill, I agree with your assessment of the cocking force. It's equivalent to the Diana 34 I have even with it's articulated cocking linkage. My shoulder felt it after a full day of cocking and shooting. :( I think it'll be a little powerhouse. I have yet to chrony the new Air Hawk but the first one clocked 900 fps with 8.3 gr Superdome. Gotta go put on some more Tru Oil... :)
It is a very good gun but I still feel the 34 is better. Howie1a
No argument here. I haven't had to touch anything on the Diana 34 and it is a great airgun. The Air Hawk is a project!
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Jon,
There is no question that they are powerhouse guns. Well built and good looking too. This, along with price, is what made us buy them in the first place. I have zero complaints with them other than the situation I've discribed. When we shoot 35 to 50 yds, we always grab our FD-PCP rifles as well as for pesting. The airhawks didn't have a home and I hate to see a gun neglected. These 2 little XS-12's are going to see alot of action. BTW... I am not comparing them to the airhawks, they aren't even in the same class. I even considered keeping mine and moving Betty Lou's but, I am a fortunate man to have a shooting partner that loves this as much as I do and I intend to do all I can to promote that. Give your airhawk a little TLC and you won't be disappointed.
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New crown, a couple of JB bore compound treatments and over a tin of pellets through it I think it's time for a look inside the Air Hawk. Here's one of the latest targets. This is encouraging!
Jon
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That a very good result !! Thanks for doing such a nice job writing about your air hawk project.
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whats the distance on that group for all we know it could be a few feet or a few hundred yards?
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whats the distance on that group for all we know it could be a few feet or a few hundred yards?
Sorry I forgot that important detail. :-[ Range 20 yards, bull is 1.5 cm diameter. Shooting my go-to pellet, RWS Superdome 8.3 gr.
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I needed to get a baseline before taking the Air Hawk apart for a tune and possible mods so I hooked up the Chrony, cable and laptop.
RWS Superdome 8.3 gr:
896 avg fps, 13 spread, 14.8 ft/lbs
RWS Basic Wadcutter 7.0 gr:
984 avg fps, 12 spread, 15.0 ft/lbs
That's close to the advertised velocity of 1000 fps with (light) lead pellets. I'm like'n this cheap air rifle more every day. ;D ;D
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It's a good thing I took a look inside before shooting the Air Hawk any more. It could've been heading for catastrophic failure. I found a number of minor things wrong but the worst was the piston. The head of the piston was very loose and rattling around in the piston body. The piston rod was wobbling. I tack welded the head to the body in several spots, then ground down the welds and smoothed it out. It's not loose anymore! The rod wasn't perfectly centered so a whack with a rubber mallet fixed that.
The original piston seal was scored in several places and a tiny chunk taken out of the edge during factory assembly. I have a couple of Vortek seals, a ProSEAL28-Red and a ProSEAL28-Black. Think I'll use the red one first, it's harder. You can see in the photos the new seal was larger than the old seal so I had to fit the new one. I turned it down until it was .010" larger in diameter than the old seal when mounted. I left extra material because the compression tube will be honed and to leave room for error.
The trigger assembly sides were bulging outwards, causing a lot of side to side slop slop. I gently squeezed it in a vise and made the sides flat. I stoned all the sear surfaces. Replaced the inner sear spring with a softer, shorter spring. The front stock mounting bracket was loose so that got red Loctite.
Put it back together with moly grease on the spring ends, SuperLube with PTFE on the piston skirt and mainspring, and Krytox 106 on the piston seal and in the compression tube. Cleaned the barrel, gave it a few passes with JB bore compound for good measure and took it out to shoot.
Here's where I need help. The velocity dropped. A Lot. It went from 895 to 815 with the same pellets. The spread went from 12 to 22. I shot it a couple hundred times hoping the new seal just needed time to seat. No improvement so I took it apart and inspected the seal. It had seated and the diameter decreased to where it was now the same as the original seal. The compression tube now looks like it was polished with a hint of cross-hatch.
Maybe I overlubed? So it went back together with the same lubes applied very sparingly. No change, same low velocity and wide spread. Can you tell me what I did wrong? I never had something like this happen.
Maybe it doesn't like the red seal? Unless someone replies real quick I'm changing out the red seal and putting in the black soft seal without fitting it. I may even put the damaged original seal back in just to get more data.
Hope you like photos 'cause here's some.
Jon
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Jon,
I also had a loose piston that needed to be welded.
I think during the repair something changed in the way the piston and the compression tube interact.
Can you describe a little more about how, where and why the "The compression tube now looks like it was polished with a hint of cross-hatch." Are there now wear marks, or scratches on the inside of the compression tube? Do they run the full length of the compression tube or are they near one end or the other? Any signs of new wear on the piston at the skirt or up near the head where it was welded?
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Can you describe a little more about how, where and why the "The compression tube now looks like it was polished with a hint of cross-hatch." Are there now wear marks, or scratches on the inside of the compression tube? Do they run the full length of the compression tube or are they near one end or the other? Any signs of new wear on the piston at the skirt or up near the head where it was welded?
The compression tube smoothed out during the break-in of the new seal. The seal diameter became smaller and the rubbing of the seal polished the inside of the tube. There does seem to be some wear marks on the skirt of the piston, nothing by the head and seal. I think this is due to wear during cocking. I can install nylon buttons made from nylon screws. Cocking the gun is much quieter than before. No rubbing or scraping sounds.
I took out the Vortek hard red ProSEAL28 and installed the soft black ProSEAL28 without fitting it. It went in really tight. Tighter than I would like. Much of the velocity came back. It went from 812 to 863 with the tight fitting seal. With proper fitting the velocity may be fully restored. Or shoot the snot out of it and hopes it wears in.
I'm thinking the red seal got worn down by the cross-hatching to the point it barely seals. I measured it off the piston and it is 1.100" which is exactly the diameter of the compression chamber ID. It went from snug to loose. It is .003" out of round. I wouldn't think that amount would be significant on a flexible seal. Maybe due to the compression tube being out of round by the same amount? I honed the cylinder with a Harbor Fright three stone brake hone for less than a minute under soapy water. Don't know what grit that is.
Does anyone know a source for OEM piston seals for the Air Hawk or XS-25? Umarex wants too much for a seal.
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Glad to hear the velocity is coming back. I'm sure flying dragon has seals but Mike's out of the shop for a while. I put an Apex seal from Air Rifle Headquaters in my air hawk, it fit very nicely. Might be an option.
http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/page/page/251327.htm (http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/page/page/251327.htm)
Some day I'm going to hone my compression tube. thanks for the tip about the soapy water.
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I've concluded that the red seal became too loose during break-in. I didn't 'think' I made the compression tube too rough with the hone but the seal was a lot looser coming out than going in. Comparing the red seal to the original seal out of the gun the red seal is now smaller in diameter and it started life off much larger in diameter.
While John was posting his reply, I was on Air Rifle Headquarters ordering a batch of large Apex and Tesla seals. I wrote to Mike Melick about getting one of his top hats and maybe a seal or two.
In the meantime I'll take the Air Hawk apart and we'll see if I can size this seal properly without botching up the job... Again. :-[
Jon
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I've seen that "looseness" in every AirHawk I've ever taken apart. I think it is there for a reason. If you think about it you'll note that the piston head is crimped into place, it is not welded. By virtue of this fact the piston head is free to "find center", sort of, in the cylinder. This loads the piston seal fairly evenly in that cylinder. Welding it down puts that piston head in a permanent position, which in all likelihood is not dead center. Your seal then wears unevenly because it is loaded unevenly and your power drops.
Makes sense to me anyway, which is why I have never attempted to correct what appears to be intrinsic to the design.
Or I could be totally FOS. That is entirely possible, too, as I am very new to all this and only have my farmer brain to help me.
And all the rest of you, of course. I have learned a boatload of stuff from this forum and I do appreciate it.
Ben
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I've seen that "looseness" in every AirHawk I've ever taken apart. I think it is there for a reason.
That never occurred to me. Let's see what others have to say.
I think the low velocity problem is solved. 8) RWS Superdome 8.3 gr. I turned the soft seal down to 1.120". It gained a little over the stock seal.
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Yeah, well, I have some experience with being FOS so I am ready for what flames may come. ;)
Cool that you got the velocity back up. These really are good guns, kinda' sleepers really, they push pellets deeper into my test block than my TR77 NPS and that one is a ruckus rifle. One of these days soon I'm going to have to buy a chrony. But then that might just drive me nuts as I'm starting to obsess on this stuff a little bit as it is, obviously, so maybe I'll wait a little longer.
Probably not.
Ben
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Ben,
You won't get any flames from me. I clearly remember looking at my loose piston shaft and thinking "this could be a very desirable situation" for all the exact reasons you mentioned.
Ultimately I decided to heed advice from Pappa and Mikeiniowa and have it welded, as mentioned here : http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=43150.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=43150.0)
John
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Hmmmm, altho I don't have Airhawks anymore because I sent them off to Mike, I had them both apart twice. Once for original cleaning, lubing and deburring when we first got them and again after I got the tophats from Mike and did the sleeve reversal mod. I honestly don't remember either one being loose. I would think I would have noticed. They both shot very well before and after the tunes. The difference was the smoothness from the mod. I am also sure that Mike will take them to the next level with his expertice. I don't know what he plans to do with them but I do know they are going to make someone real happy. They just didn't serve our purpose because Betty Lou's was a bit too much gun for her. If were not for that fact, I would have kept at least one of the Airhawk. I have the Beeman Silver Kodiak and the Nitro Venom for when I get the big gun urge. Also, replacing the Airhawks with the XS-12s fits our program perfectly. I'm not justifying, just stating facts pertinent to us. But again, I don't recall either one being loose.
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From all that I see here, I believe that there may be a problem with the cross hatching that was done. What is the grit of the stones used? Anything coarser than 400 grit is way too coarse and that leaves a finish in the piston seal area that wears the seal out WAY too fast. Most brake hones come with a stone grit of 350 or worse. I always install finer stones on a hone before anything else happens. Also, crosshatching should be done relatively sparingly. If overdone, you are just cutting away on the most critical area of the compression chamber. Also, was the cross hatching area thoroughly cleaned of all honing residue with a good scrubbing with detergent water, well rinsed and dried, and then coated with a good layer of 60+% molly grease and was the seal and piston also coated with Molly grease before being inserted?
Another thought on buying a good airgun based mostly on price. I had a brief discussion on this with someone here in my review of the Air Hawk on Amazon.com. I have purchased 2 Air Hawks from Wallyworld and they have both been bad in almost every way and I sent them both back. I have purchased 4 from Amazon.com at $99.98 and they have all been absolutely factory perfect as received. All I ever had to do to them is a basic tune-up for delivery to customers that have been very happy with what they received. I am convinced that Wallyworld is selling questionable stock from a warehouse that deals in aged, neglected stock that is not first rate.
Just my $.02.
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Pappa, I think you're right on the money with the hone grit question. Don't know what grit this Harbor Fright hone has. I didn't hone for long, less than a minute and what I thought was just enough to score the surface. Based on how much the seal was worn down in a short time, it probably has stones that are too coarse. Others have said they used them successfully but HF tools are not the highest quality and can vary. I used Dawn in a sink full of water as the medium, blew it dry with compressed air, then wiped out the cylinder until the rags came out white. This has worked for me before with OEM Crosman seals. This is my first go with Vortek parachute seals.
I don't use JM moly grease on the piston seal or cylinder walls anymore. Like many others, I discovered Krytox lube. Extremely durable lube and no detonation from the first shot.
I sent the first Wally World Air Hawk back because it had a rusted, poorly rifled barrel. I never even got to the point of opening it up. The second one they shipped me got lost in transit. The third one, this one, is much better. I'm satisfied with how it is turning out so far and it is a great learning platform for when I decide to tune up the Diana 34.
Jon
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TooJung2Die,
Harbor Freight stones are 350 grit at their very best. I usually cross hatch the front end of the compression chamber for about 30 seconds at a VERY slow spin. Haven't had a failure yet. My stones are 420 grit. Tried Krytox and a couple of other synthetic lubes but always go back to Molly grease. I have enriched mine to about 70% molly and it always does what I want it to and I have NEVER had a problem with detonation or smoking. On my own Air Hawks (and D34's), I have put several thousand pellets through each of them and they are still shooting as accurately and strongly as when they started. I'll stick with the molly grease. It is certainly a well tried, reliable and true lube for what I use it for.
For what it's worth, for all of my Ruger and RWS rifles, I only use Vortek black seals and I have never had a failure or lack of performance with them. All my own custom main springs are also Vortek .130 wire. Performance power is OUTSTANDING!!!
Why do I do all of this? I live at the end of a long cul-de-sac in a very green and heavily treed neighborhood in North Carolina. The squirrel population used to be tremendous and was driving everyone on the street nuts. My wife also feeds a large population of birds with feeders and furnishes bird baths for them and the squirrels used to drive her nuts by raiding the feeders and washing themselves in the bird baths.That was 5 years ago and now there is hardly a squirrel that can be found in this neighborhood. One of my next door neighbors is a canine cop with a large German Shepherd and I occasionally toss the dog a squirrel just to play with and bury. No worries, I get along with the cop very well. My only real worry now is that for the last 2 years in a row, I have run out of squirrels by the end of spring. Dang; life can really get tough sometimes!!!
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TooJung2Die,
Harbor Freight stones are 350 grit at their very best.
Anyone out there want a used China Fright brake hone? Good condition but the stones are a little on the coarse side. ;)
I use a short piece of fuel line tubing and a drill bit to extend the shaft. If a stone were to catch the rubber tubing kinks and doesn't break the stone. Turning the hone as slowly as the variable speed drill will allow. I'm buying a quality brake hone with a known grit.
For what it's worth, for all of my Ruger and RWS rifles, I only use Vortek black seals and I have never had a failure or lack of performance with them. All my own custom main springs are also Vortek .130 wire. Performance power is OUTSTANDING!!!
I'm very happy to hear you like the Vortek black seals 'cause that's what I have in there now after ruining the red seal. The black seals are softer and supposed to be more forgiving of uneven compression tubes. When the time comes I'll certainly keep your spring advice in mind. The Air Hawk has .128" wire. They must be jack hammers with the heavier .130" wire spring.
Big Question - How do you size your seals? By measuring the diameter or by feel in the compression tube? I've asked this before and no one has shared their secret.
Jon
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Jon,
I don't understand your question about 'sizing' a seal. If you are buying a seal for an Air Hawk, for instance, any manufacturer or dealer providing seals for that rifle will know what the 'size' should be and provide it to fit THAT rifle whether it is from Vortek, Flying Dragon or Umarex, etc.
On your statement about stone grits, you don't particularly have to replace the entire hone to change the stone's grit. In fact, that is the most difficult way to accomplish your goal since you might shop for days and days and never find the hone with the right stones especially since most hones don't even advertise their grit size. My hone came with a coarse grit set of stones and I simply went on Amazon.com, found the right grit of stones that I wanted and ordered them. All you have to do is remove the stones on your hone and put the proper grit in it's place. In my case, the new stone mounts didn't fit the hone so I simply removed the stone's from their mounts on each stone set (in my case, simple heat was enough to get all the stones removed), reshaped the stones with my Dremel grinder from the replacement set to fit the hone's mounts and glued them on. Works like a charm and the new stones have honed dozens of rifles and still look and act like new.
PS. The best hone shaft extension is stiff plastic tubing, found in coils at Lowes or Home Depot, etc. in the plumbing department. It is super cheap and will last for years and years. Just take your hone in to make sure you get the right size.
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Jon,
I don't understand your question about 'sizing' a seal. If you are buying a seal for an Air Hawk, for instance, any manufacturer or dealer providing seals for that rifle will know what the 'size' should be and provide it to fit THAT rifle whether it is from Vortek, Flying Dragon or Umarex, etc.
Claud,
When I put in the black seal it was very tight. Velocity was better but not as good as with the damaged original seal. I chucked it in a drill press and sanded .005" off the diameter. Now the velocity is back where it was.
I read many pro tuners talk about oversize and undersize compression tubes and "sizing" the seal for a custom fit. Jim Maccari says his seals need to be sized to work properly and tells how he does it but gives no advice on what size is correct. So I'm wondering how to tell when a seal is sized correctly for a compression tube.
Good advice on the hone stones. I'll get the fine grit stones and epoxy them to the hone I have. Nothing wrong with it except for the coarse grit. I think I'll continue to use the rubber hose until I'm an expert. I've had a stone catch and it kept the stone from damaging the tube or the stone.
Jon
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I read somewhere (likely here on GTA) some advice on fitting piston seals. With the compression tube in a verticle position the piston should not drop to the bottom. It should need about a pound or so off push to start moving, and come to a stop when the push is removed. I recall fitting the seal with 600 grit sand paper until I was able to push the piston and seal down the compression tube with one finger. Felt like a pound and that seemed correct to me - but I don't have a ton of experience fitting piston seals, like Jon, would like to hear others methods.
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Krytox lube, is there a product # for it
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Krytox lube, is there a product # for it
Amazon or eBay. Look for Krytox GPL. 105 is oil and 205 is grease. Ultimox is another brand name for the same lubricant. Extrememly durable lubricant and it will not ignite. Ever. No more dieseling after a lube. Zip, zilch, nada. It's often used in high pressure, oxygen rich environments.
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Krytox lube, is there a product # for it
Try just looking it up on Google search.
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Error; Error, Error, Don't know why but the system stuck 2 of this message in, one after the other.
Certainly would be nice if this site would just give us the ability to delete our own entries if we made an error. etc!!!
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Certainly would be nice if this site would just give us the ability to delete our own entries if we made an error. etc!!!
then we wouldn't know who the screw-ups were ::).
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I don't have a ton of experience fitting piston seals, like Jon, would like to hear others methods.
Hear the crickets? ??? Same response I got last time I asked. I suppose if ya hafta ask, ya wouldn't understand. :-X
Jon
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Jon,
Here's some more information for you, and I was wrong. Should be 2 lbs of force on a lubed piston seal. According to the sources below (including Mr. Melick) who are relaying information from Gerald Cardew, author of The Air Gun From Trigger to Muzzle.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1263242929/Piston+seal+sizing+question----- (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1263242929/Piston+seal+sizing+question-----)
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1294867106/best+way+to+size+piston+seal++---- (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1294867106/best+way+to+size+piston+seal++----)
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1111986548/1112032797/Springer+Tuners+-+Sizing+a+Piston+Seal... (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1111986548/1112032797/Springer+Tuners+-+Sizing+a+Piston+Seal...)
Google - All the worlds information in the palm of your hand.......
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Good examples, John. Thank you. I've been looking on the Yellow forum too. Mr. Cardew's book will be an interesting read. All I needed is the basics. There's a lot more to it that comes only with experience, of course.
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Something else you'll notice not normal with knock-off guns. The scope ain't all that bad for what it is.
Good luck, I hope you enjoy yours as we do.
I think the scope has bit the dust. The elevation adjustment on the Ruger 4x32 scope is wobbly and the detent is gritty feeling. Some times it doesn't want to turn. It wants to shoot two groups. One out of every three or four pellets hit high at 25 yards. Too bad, I kinda liked the scope for it's clarity and fine crosshairs. I put the Bushnell Banner on the Air Hawk and the double groups stopped. The droop adjustment made to the barrel must be pretty close because it took less than a half turn on the elevation to get the POI centered with the Bushnell.
This is my second Ruger 4x32 scope. Like the other one, this one may find a home on one of the MSP airguns. I've been thoroughly enjoying this project. I have a Vortek PG2 kit coming! Now I'll get to see first hand why so many rave about this kit. 8)