GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Papa Smurf on April 18, 2014, 01:49:26 PM
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I don't know if anyone else ever had a problem with the "artillery hold"? I got heavy into air guns a little over a year ago. Try as I might the artillery hold caused me a lot of grief and hundreds and hundreds of pellets . The winter chased me into the house in late November . I been out for a few weeks now and been using a firm hold as I have for many years with my powder burners . I find I can shoot much better groups and can hit targets much farther away than with the artillery hold . Don't know if anyone else has had similar results or not . It would be something maybe others had happen or would like to know. ---------Good Shooting to all--------------Papa Smurf
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I have to agree. I have even gone so far as mounting a bipod.
As i am an older person with disabilities it is far more enjoyable to hit what i point at without strain.
Just sayin
Tommy
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It comes down to the rifle. PCPs you can hold on to. Springers with lots of recoil loosen up on. It comes down to what works best for the shooter. I had troubles with my TX 200 last year until I started to hold the Fore arm a bit tighter, a bit further up on the checking of the gun and my groups shrunk and I felt much more comfortable holding the gun that way. Holding the gun flat in my palm back by the trigger group did not do it for me. My PcP guns I shoot off of Bi-pods or sticks like I would my power burners. they are a lot more forgiving to use my 11 year old Nephew can get sub 3/4" groups at 50 yards with my PCPs if he can keep his attention and focus long enough to shoot a nice shot sting.
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Yes on the older person and through the last 3 years have gone from mono to tripod and have not really got into the artillery hold thing but different airguns like women have to be handled differently.
Just use what works for ya.
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My Patriot shoots a lot better with a firm hold.
The key thing when buying a new air rifle is to try different holds.
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What are you shooting ?
I still have the best results with artillery hold when shooting springers...
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that artillery hold never worked for me, always had better results with a good hold, shooting everything from 15 FPE springers to gas rams and 30 FPE springers, the artillery hold isn't for me
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I am shooting a Blackhawk with a bipod and I can stack pellets at thirty yards. I did put on a heavier muzzle weight and that really helped the shots.
Tommy
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So much more than just hold used .... If you grip your trigger hand tightly your placing tension on the action and any motion of the rifle when fired will be enhanced because of the hold.
Cheek weld pressure the same thing ....
Fore stock grip and any induced torque with show up as action cycles.
Each and every pressure point on action when fired will have effect on direction and motion during that split second shot cycle.
The more you can become conscious of all these contributing factors, better you as a shooter can isolate those that effect why guns shoots how it does :o
If being VERY accurate with guns air or powder was easy .... everyone would be a crack shot :P
Scott
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I only have two air rifles, and only one of those really benefits from the artillery hold. And that is a Gamo springer. The other rifle is a pneumatic which doesn't seem to care so much about how it is held.
However, I use the artillery hold on some of my powder burner rifles too, to good effect. For example, my Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R and my 8mm Mauser. Neither of those sound like rifles you'd want a loose hold on (they are both in the .30-06 power category, and have metal buttplates). But I am more accurate with them using the light artillery hold and a light touch of the buttstock on my shoulder. But I admit, I use a shoulder pad to absorb the recoil unleashed when you let one of these rifles "move like it wants to move". I mostly shoot these rifles offhand, as prone can be brutal with that metal buttplate.
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I don't know if anyone else ever had a problem with the "artillery hold"? I got heavy into air guns a little over a year ago. Try as I might the artillery hold caused me a lot of grief and hundreds and hundreds of pellets . The winter chased me into the house in late November . I been out for a few weeks now and been using a firm hold as I have for many years with my powder burners . I find I can shoot much better groups and can hit targets much farther away than with the artillery hold . Don't know if anyone else has had similar results or not . It would be something maybe others had happen or would like to know. ---------Good Shooting to all--------------Papa Smurf
IMHO........CONSISTENCY OF HOLD is the biggest player in shooting a springer accurately....well, my .177 R9! For me I find it easier to get "consistent hold pressure" using the lightest hold possible than when using a firm hold. LOL.....with a firm hold even the clothes worn affect the poi such as shooting with a heavy coat in the winter vs a tee shirt in the summer. My brother uses a firmer hold with his R9 than I do and usually shootes higher HFT scores than I with his R9, but I personally believe that this has more to due with his hold consistency than the hold method.
Anywhoo.......for ME and my R9 it's better to use a light hold! If you're more consistent with a firm hold then it's simply a matter of doing what works best!
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The artillery hold is the only way I can shoot a springer accurately. I took my basic knowledge of shooting distance in the military and applied it to air rifles but with springers I could only achieve accuracy by practicing and concentrating on adding the artillery hold to my arsenal of shooting knowledge. And yes the lighter you hold your springer the more accurate I shoot. I guess it is all about practice and concentration.
It works for me..
Gene
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I have to agree with consistency being the bigger part of accuracy. Maybe in a magnum springer, the artillery hold has its merits but in those running about 825-870 FPS, I personally have found that a good consistent snug but not tight hold works well.
Of course the TX 200 is a bit more forgiving than most but when I de-tuned my RWS 48 down to about 830 FPS by cutting 2 turns off the Vortek spring, it not only is extremely constant in the FPS category, it is shooting almost as good as the TX with a snug constant hold. I did work a bit better when it was full power with the artillery but even then it didn't even come close to the TX for consistency.
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All of my rifles are springers.
None of them group well with the artillery hold.
All of them group tight and are consistent only with a firm hold on the pistol grip and open palm on the forearm.
Wasted thousands of pellets following the advice to use the artillery hold.
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Both of my rifles do better with the artillery hold 0for me) but- if you sight in your rifle with a firm hold and are consistant with it, I don't see why it wouldn't work the same way. As long as you do the SAME thing the SAME way, you should get the SAME results. Seems logical to me.
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All of them group tight and are consistent only with a firm hold on the pistol grip and open palm on the forearm.
And that is an artillery hold dude!
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All of them group tight and are consistent only with a firm hold on the pistol grip and open palm on the forearm.
And that is an artillery hold dude!
NO it is not and do not call me dude
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mnbI9Nfu4c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mnbI9Nfu4c) Artillery Hold for newbies
No need to take offense, when you can just view this simple explanatory video, with Steeephen AAARcher himself. (No idea why he is censored, but hey). But to summarize. You are wrong.
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I have more important things to do than have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
adios.
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for me what is MOST important is limiting my coffee intake to only 1/2 a pot of so.... anymore than that and my shots are lucky to even hit the paper!!!
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The "artillery hold" for ME is more than simply resting the stock forearm on the palm of the hand. It also includes a light grip at the "trigger area" and light pressure on the shoulder so the R9 recoils rather freely.
This discussing has piqued some interest in my trying the "firm grip" again with my .177 R9 to see how it affects the accuracy with my current tune (CPLs at 890fps). I do know that some holds I've tried give a more stable AIM POINT and the firm hold is one example for me, however at times the most stable aim point doesn't (hasn't yet) given the best accuracy at the target.
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After trying springers and the cursed artillery hold, I am happy to report no more artillery hold for me. Why? NO more springers. All sold and traded away and I say good riddance. >:( I'll leave the artillery to the Army and Marine cannon cockers. ;D
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I have tried many holds on many different guns and found that most magnum springers shoot better with an artillery hold. Low to medium springers shoot better with a firmer hold.
sights also affect the hold, scoped guns shoot better with an artillery hold while when using open sights it is better to hold the gun firmly
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what is considered a magnum springer?
Tommy
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I've found I shoot better in general without an artillery hold. At first, the artillery hold helped me shoot my springers more accurately, but as I've improved, I've moved away from it in favor of a firmer hold. I like to be ready to use my springers in the field while pesting or hunting and I found a loose artillery hold is often impossible while on uneven terrain, leaning against odd objects or trees, where unlike bench shooting, your shot isn't consistent. But, a consistent hold, cheek weld, eye to scope alignment and trigger control I've developed over time have improved my ability to shoot springers accurately, despite no longer using the artillery hold.
It takes experimenting with what personally works best for YOU, but find what works and consistently use that. I've found the artillery hold isn't always necessary and in certain situations like in the field, can actually make me less stable and ready to take a quick hunting shot. Keep trying new things and your springer shooting will improve! ;D
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This thread is a surprise.I thought I was about the only one who didn't use the artillery hold.I hold all rifles like I'm shooting a magnum centerfire and get excellent accuracy.Cheek weld,calling the shot,and follow thru are most important.
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I to find the Artillery Hold hard to use. I have shot .22 Silhouette for many years and to me there is no way to use the Artillery Hold. I realize Air Rifles are different breed and maybe for some it works and I have tried it on 4 or 5 Air Rifles and either I don't know how to use it or ??.
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I too have almost completely given up on the artillery hold. All my springers shoot best with a firm hold...plus the artillery makes me shoot high and to the right, resulting in odd scope adjustments.. Might be guns that do best with it but i don't have any. of um.. ;D
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I use a 'modified' ;D artillery hold. I've seen videos where the air rifle is laid in the palm of an open hand and another where it's placed on top of the hand ???. I place it in my slightly closed hand, a V if you will. I put the butt plate lightly against my shoulder 'pocket', and grip the stock just enough to be able to squeeze the trigger so, it's not a pure artillery hold.
Dan
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After lots of practice my artillery hold has changed to a semi firm grip but when I first started shooting the loose hold was the best for me. Maybe some people have the ability to hold their rifles evenly so the recoil doesn't affect their aim but it's taken me a lot of shooting to firm my grip to where I'm balanced and perfectly in line and not pulling or pushing for the recoil to amplify such differences.
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I hear that!! I'm now 60, and I do love my coffee. I'll give up my coffee when they pry the cup from my cold dead hands.
for me what is MOST important is limiting my coffee intake to only 1/2 a pot of so.... anymore than that and my shots are lucky to even hit the paper!!!
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Good post Mark, especially the part about being in the field. I've used the artillery hold for a while now but I'm hoping to do more outdoor shooting at some point. I think it's time to start experimenting with different holds.
I've found I shoot better in general without an artillery hold. At first, the artillery hold helped me shoot my springers more accurately, but as I've improved, I've moved away from it in favor of a firmer hold. I like to be ready to use my springers in the field while pesting or hunting and I found a loose artillery hold is often impossible while on uneven terrain, leaning against odd objects or trees, where unlike bench shooting, your shot isn't consistent. But, a consistent hold, cheek weld, eye to scope alignment and trigger control I've developed over time have improved my ability to shoot springers accurately, despite no longer using the artillery hold.
It takes experimenting with what personally works best for YOU, but find what works and consistently use that. I've found the artillery hold isn't always necessary and in certain situations like in the field, can actually make me less stable and ready to take a quick hunting shot. Keep trying new things and your springer shooting will improve! ;D
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I recently switched to a gas ram air rifle and have experimented with holds. I got a bipod with my combo package, a Stoeger ATAC Suppressor, but have decided that it is totally impractical for my style and location of shooting. Right now I am getting away with a loose hold or a firm hold, depending on how tired I get. I hardly ever hold the rifle mid-way down the stock for support though, I find it too tiring, especially on this rather weighty air rifle. I actually, more often than not, find myself supporting the rifle just past the trigger guard... that may seem weird to some of you but I find that's where a good balance is and I can also support my elbow close to my body, normally on my ribs.
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that may seem weird to some of you but I find that's where a good balance is and I can also support my elbow close to my body, normally on my ribs.
Who cares if it's weird to others, you the one doin the shootin, your job is to make shooting unweird for you. Just keep on shootin.
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that may seem weird to some of you but I find that's where a good balance is and I can also support my elbow close to my body, normally on my ribs.
Who cares if it's weird to others, you the one doin the shootin, your job is to make shooting unweird for you. Just keep on shootin.
X2.....good advice since guns AND shooters are individuals!
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Just thought I would share a test I did last fall regarding tight vs. loose holds while shooting. I was able to consistently alter the Point of Impact up to 3-4 inches by changing my hold on my RWS 34. Tighter hold = higher POI. In *my* case a tighter hold also equated to smaller groups.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=53485.msg509748#msg509748 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=53485.msg509748#msg509748)
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On my Beeman Silver Kodiak x2 (springer) I use a light forearm hold. I tried a completely open, flat palm and that seemed to open up POI.
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I have a .22 umarex octane springer, pretty powerfull, pretty good recoil kick. When I try the artilery hold I do HORRIBLE. When I put a firm grip on it and press the but against my shoulder firmly and have it resting on something solid I do great! Guess it works for some people/guns and not for others.
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my .177 rws 34 with vortek kit shoots dead nuts on with anything between the artillery and gorilla hold, while my .22 rws with the ARH kit demands a very light hold. Before I put the vortek kit the .177 it liked a loose hold. I had a Crosman .177 phantom with an e3650 arh spring that shot really nice IF I was loose on the fore stock, loose on the cheek, but tight into the shoulder. So don't be afraid to try something different to get the results you are looking for. Then when you toss in the difference in pellets you can drive yourself bonkers trying to find the right combination! Sure is fun though ;D
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I too use the firm hold on the pistol grip and open palm under the forearm......whatever you wish to call it
GRUNON, that is the only way my springers will hold good groups too. I prefer to call this position by a term which you would not agree, so I'll just say that your way is best.
PaperPunch1
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My crosman optimus is really sensitive to a light hold. grab on too tight with either hand and she can string groups