GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: Motorhead on April 04, 2014, 05:54:11 PM
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Having spotted this post in the classified .... http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=65221.msg621401#msg621401 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=65221.msg621401#msg621401)
Contacted seller and ordered one to test and play with.
* With all the R&D I do with regulated Bench Rest and Field Target rifles the design looked to have some Very well thought out design attributes that grabbed my attention ;D
As with most competitive shooters always looking for the proverbial Better Mouse Trap 8)
(http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s501/milo741/image_zpsc13ad2ac.jpg)
100% billet BRASS construction ( Steel bevel washers ) has body and spool expanding / contacting with temperature changes together. * In theory should be a very dimensionally stable unit.
High pressure seat adjustment is on fine threads with a lock collar to hold adjusted pressure setting. * Like this a lot !
(http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s501/milo741/image_zpsbf19c202.jpg)
Internally find that More Bevel washer you use, more accurate and speedy recovery is to set point. Looking at it appears stack is 10 washers worth. * Liked this too ;)
HP seat is a time proven design having air enter straight down the adjuster screw then resting on the HP Spool ends DELRIN seat.
Once seats open air flow around HP end of spool ( See the turned down diameter above o-ring ) passing into side holes intersecting spools center hole to LP side.
Regs body holding LP spool end machined as a blind hole requiring no internal C-clip. Top HP half of Reg screws onto the bottom making unit a very robust solid assembly. ( being basically ALL Brass it's heavy, but darn nice to see tough brass where most use aluminum ???
(http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s501/milo741/image_zpsc4ea3b51.jpg)
This regulator is of a Universal nature in that it is VENTED and a hole needs to be drilled in main air tube to vent it.
* The Current HUUB sold by AGE has an integral plenum and vents threw existing gauge hole.
So we're dealing with the more typical and type design used within the industry by most others. No biggy really ;)
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Have no vested interest here, just always willing to share the work of others felt worthy of getting there products viewed where they otherwise would get lost in the masses of posts and internet clutter.
Will be testing very soon doing some serious shake down evaluation and sharing within this thread ... Stay tuned ;)
Scott ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We Have testing results
* Regulator placed within one of my Field Target tuned .177 cal marauders.
Set point adjusted for @ 1600# output pressure.
Rifle fitted with a modified factory valve, light 19gram hammer.
Pellet AA 10.3 heavy set up to shoot @ 900 FPS.
1-10 = AMV 900 / SD = 4.21 / ES = 14 & 1.56%
11-20 = AMV 896 / SD = 1.38 / ES = 7 & .78 %
21-30 = AMV 902 / SD = 3.03 / ES = 11 & 1.22%
31-40 = AMV 903 / SD = 3.27 / ES = 11 & 1.22%
41-50 = AMV 904 / SD = 3.78 / ES = 12 & 1.33%
51-60 = AMV 908 / SD = 2.6 / ES = 9 & .99%
61-70 = AMV 908 / SD = 2.81 / ES = 8 & .88%
71-80 = AMV 908 / SD = 2.5 / ES = 8 & .88%
Fill was at 3000# and rifle dropped off regulation on shot @83 so stopped at 80 8)
** So for 80 shots we get:
Average Muzzle Velocity of 903.6 fps
Standard Deviation of 3.06
Extreme spread average of 10
Spread percentile 1.1%
Data plugged into Lloyd's Efficiency Calculator numbers crunch like this ;D
AVE FPE / CU IN per shot = 1.37
AVE BAR-CC/FPE per shot = 11.9
AVE FPE = 18.5 ft lbs
AVE PSI used per shot = 17
Needless to say it is a KEEPER !!!
*** NOTE:
This Data is with a NEW REGULATOR thats only cycles have been this shot string ... it is NOT BROKEN IN YET and would expect it to settle down further after a few 1000 cycles.
Thanks for following along ...
Regards,
Scott
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Scott, what guns does it fit? Look forward to seeing your results.
EDIT: ooops, went back and read it again - MROD
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Nice write up Scott. These things look very simple to manufacture, why are there so few to choose from?
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Scott
i'm glad you are testing one of these
i also have one sitting here and have been debating on installing it
have been in communication with him about machining some other items also
looking forward to your results
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subscribed and will follow with great interest.
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Scott:
Since I am very new to the PCP game and now have a Marauder, do you mind explaining what a regulator does in simple terms?
This is interesting but I don't know what it means yet ;)
Thanks,
BZ
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http://www.airguns.net/general_regulators.php (http://www.airguns.net/general_regulators.php)
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subscribed and will follow with great interest.
Yarp.
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http://www.airguns.net/general_regulators.php (http://www.airguns.net/general_regulators.php)
[/quot
Thanks!
BZ
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RESULTS POSTED bottom of original post
Real happy ... think we got a winner ;D
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I think you might be ordering some (at least one) more.
;)
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Hey Scott been a while since I have chated with you. That looks like a real find, those are some great numbers. How much volume do you think it takes up in your reservoir? Better asked, what reservior volume did you use to calculate those awesome efficiency numbers?
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Hey Scott been a while since I have chated with you. That looks like a real find, those are some great numbers. How much volume do you think it takes up in your reservoir? Better asked, what reservior volume did you use to calculate those awesome efficiency numbers?
Bill,
Used volume of 190 cc.
The regulator is @ twice a long as the one pulled out ( A Huub Universal Gen 1 )
Body length of one removed was .800" long and This one put in @ 1.500" long.
We lost @ 3/4" more air space due to this regulators length.
Both used up against a hogged out factory gauge manifold BTW.
** Taking a factory air tube size of 215cc, subtracted 1.5" at 1.060" diameter, the CC volume this regulators main body displaces is 21.69cc
Add a tad more for the nose/adjuster area rounded it off to 25cc leaving me with @ 190cc of HP air storage ;)
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Scott,
Just curious, Do you plan on trying this in your .22 Mrod also ?
I would love to see a comparison between a non-regged vs. this reg, in a .22 Mrod.
On edit,
I'd like to see a comparison that would also include the reg that you are currently using in your .22
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Great stuff Scott. Very impressive numbers. I have one of the original 100 M-Rods in .177 that would love that mod...:) I could shoot all day...:)
Thanks for sharing with us.
Gene
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Scott,
Just curious, Do you plan on trying this in your .22 Mrod also ?
I would love to see a comparison between a non-regged vs. this reg, in a .22 Mrod.
On edit,
I'd like to see a comparison that would also include the reg that you are currently using in your .22
Ron,
The .22 has my original Audrius Regulator which is installed in nearly identical parameters and would be easy enough in doing.
That rifle ( the .22 ) gets 40 shots on reg and @11 off for a consistent 50 while tossing JSB 18'1s at 865 fps & 30 ft lbs.
Thought about doing the .22 for the testing, but JSB .22's are more costly to just be shooting across a chrony and being I have been able to get such good efficiency in .177 cal, the longer shot stings IMO are more telling of a regulators consistency than shorter strings ;)
So .177 it was 8)
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maybe someone can enlight me....how come they don't make high flow regulators. Something like 1/4in or larger air massage so plenum does not become an issue as much. This would be for high power applications.
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maybe someone can enlight me....how come they don't make high flow regulators. Something like 1/4in or larger air massage so plenum does not become an issue as much. This would be for high power applications.
A "Per Say" Hi Flow regulator would be following along the lines of what Ninja among many in the paintball world build.
It is not so much a Hi Flow as it is FAST RECOVERY so valve can fire under very short recovery time.
The PCP's valve opens and closes so quickly that a regulator simply has no ability to actually meter air for the actual shot cycle.
The "On Deck" supply of regulated pressure air for the shot cycle at present must be available within the plenum.
Hope this anwsers what your asking ? :o
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It kind of answers my question but not really. lol.
Still would like to find a reg that can mange high power 50-70 fpe
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Scott,
Just curious, Do you plan on trying this in your .22 Mrod also ?
I would love to see a comparison between a non-regged vs. this reg, in a .22 Mrod.
On edit,
I'd like to see a comparison that would also include the reg that you are currently using in your .22
Ron,
The .22 has my original Audrius Regulator which is installed in nearly identical parameters and would be easy enough in doing.
That rifle ( the .22 ) gets 40 shots on reg and @11 off for a consistent 50 while tossing JSB 18'1s at 865 fps & 30 ft lbs.
Thought about doing the .22 for the testing, but JSB .22's are more costly to just be shooting across a chrony and being I have been able to get such good efficiency in .177 cal, the longer shot stings IMO are more telling of a regulators consistency than shorter strings ;)
So .177 it was 8)
Thanks Scott,
Yeah, I understand why you chose the .177 and the longer shot strings, ;)
being able to tune for 80 shots certainly does afford some bragging rights ;D, as well as better tests the regs consistency.
great review, and great info.
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It kind of answers my question but not really. lol.
Still would like to find a reg that can mange high power 50-70 fpe
A little tiny very low flow regulator could work ... just need enough air between reg and valve to have an acceptable volume and pressure drop that is not too great.
It's all about valving opening & closing taking a sip of air at pressure systems operating at. Higher the power GREATER the space this sip needs to come from.
Plenum volume must become like the tank is on an unregulated gun, there valve sips from entire tank volume & pressure .... in a regulated gun the plenum space must be looked at the same way.
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Motor,
I understand the relationship with plenum and power, the 1 to 1 relationship of CC to FPE if you want to stay in the efficient side. I just wonder how, for example, FX can get 50-60 fpe with hardly any plenum. In a disco, that would be about ½ the tube and in a mrod, it would be ¼ of the tube. In other workers words is there a way to get the power without the lat amount of plenum.
Daniel
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Higher the pressure at the valve, greater the energy release potential with less volume is what my take would be :-\
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It kind of answers my question but not really. lol.
Still would like to find a reg that can mange high power 50-70 fpe
What he is saying is that the air for the shot is not coming from behind the reg. the air used is in front of it and at a constant pressure. The larger dia would allow you to shoot faster but not get more air for the shot. I guess if you need more air then you would have to move the reg. farther away from the valve to get more volume. I don't shot a PCP but that is how I understand it. If I'm wrong someone that does know will make it right. ;D
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would like to find a reg that can mange high power 50-70 fpe
To do that without 50-70 cc of volume between the regulator and valve will require running a higher setpoint than what you would with that size plenum.... The only other alternative would be to find a regulator that can cycle in well under 1 mSec. (in less than 1/1000th sec.) so that it can top up the pressure DURING the shot cycle.... If you install a gauge between the regulator and the valve and watch it during a shot, you can literally SEE the pressure drop and then build again to the setpoint.... To completely top up the pressure back to the setpoint of the regulator, even with a "Hi-flow" regulator such as the Ninja takes a full second or longer....
The inlet ports in a PCP (allowing air INTO the valve area) are quite often 1/4" diameter or larger.... That is the size you would need to try and pass the required air THROUGH a regulator during a shot.... Such a regulator would be very difficult to get to hold a close tolerance on the setpoint.... That is why we use larger plenums between the regulator and the valve, so that the regulator doesn't have to cycle during the shot cycle.... There is enough air inside the plenum to provide air for the shot.... I use a plenum volume of 1 cc for each FPE I want the gun to produce.... The most practical way I have found of doing that in high powered guns is to place the tank under the main tube, which then acts as the plenum, like this....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/22%20PCP/IMG_2840.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/22%20PCP/IMG_2840.jpg.html)
Sorry for the Hi-jack on the thread, but I hope I answered the question about regulators and high power.... It certainly CAN be done, it's just that there are restraints on doing it.... It can also be done by increasing the setpoint on the regulator, but that limits the pressure range available between the fill pressure and setpoint, and hence the shot count....
Bob
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thanks bob.
You explanation always covers everything. I guess the catch is making a regulator that is accurate with a large bore for flow.
daniel
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Was so happy with the first one ... Just received a second one for further testing / evaluation in the other guns ;D
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Having spotted this post in the classified .... http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=65221.msg621401#msg621401 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=65221.msg621401#msg621401)
Contacted seller and ordered one to test and play with.
* With all the R&D I do with regulated Bench Rest and Field Target rifles the design looked to have some Very well thought out design attributes that grabbed my attention ;D
As with most competitive shooters always looking for the proverbial Better Mouse Trap 8)
(http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s501/milo741/image_zpsc13ad2ac.jpg)
100% billet BRASS construction ( Steel bevel washers ) has body and spool expanding / contacting with temperature changes together. * In theory should be a very dimensionally stable unit.
High pressure seat adjustment is on fine threads with a lock collar to hold adjusted pressure setting. * Like this a lot !
(http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s501/milo741/image_zpsbf19c202.jpg)
Internally find that More Bevel washer you use, more accurate and speedy recovery is to set point. Looking at it appears stack is 10 washers worth. * Liked this too ;)
HP seat is a time proven design having air enter straight down the adjuster screw then resting on the HP Spool ends DELRIN seat.
Once seats open air flow around HP end of spool ( See the turned down diameter above o-ring ) passing into side holes intersecting spools center hole to LP side.
Regs body holding LP spool end machined as a blind hole requiring no internal C-clip. Top HP half of Reg screws onto the bottom making unit a very robust solid assembly. ( being basically ALL Brass it's heavy, but darn nice to see tough brass where most use aluminum ???
(http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s501/milo741/image_zpsc4ea3b51.jpg)
This regulator is of a Universal nature in that it is VENTED and a hole needs to be drilled in main air tube to vent it.
* The Current HUUB sold by AGE has an integral plenum and vents threw existing gauge hole.
So we're dealing with the more typical and type design used within the industry by most others. No biggy really ;)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Have no vested interest here, just always willing to share the work of others felt worthy of getting there products viewed where they otherwise would get lost in the masses of posts and internet clutter.
Will be testing very soon doing some serious shake down evaluation and sharing within this thread ... Stay tuned ;)
Scott ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We Have testing results
* Regulator placed within one of my Field Target tuned .177 cal marauders.
Set point adjusted for @ 1600# output pressure.
Rifle fitted with a modified factory valve, light 19gram hammer.
Pellet AA 10.3 heavy set up to shoot @ 900 FPS.
1-10 = AMV 900 / SD = 4.21 / ES = 14 & 1.56%
11-20 = AMV 896 / SD = 1.38 / ES = 7 & .78 %
21-30 = AMV 902 / SD = 3.03 / ES = 11 & 1.22%
31-40 = AMV 903 / SD = 3.27 / ES = 11 & 1.22%
41-50 = AMV 904 / SD = 3.78 / ES = 12 & 1.33%
51-60 = AMV 908 / SD = 2.6 / ES = 9 & .99%
61-70 = AMV 908 / SD = 2.81 / ES = 8 & .88%
71-80 = AMV 908 / SD = 2.5 / ES = 8 & .88%
Fill was at 3000# and rifle dropped off regulation on shot @83 so stopped at 80 8)
** So for 80 shots we get:
Average Muzzle Velocity of 903.6 fps
Standard Deviation of 3.06
Extreme spread average of 10
Spread percentile 1.1%
Data plugged into Lloyd's Efficiency Calculator numbers crunch like this ;D
AVE FPE / CU IN per shot = 1.37
AVE BAR-CC/FPE per shot = 11.9
AVE FPE = 18.5 ft lbs
AVE PSI used per shot = 17
Needless to say it is a KEEPER !!!
*** NOTE:
This Data is with a NEW REGULATOR thats only cycles have been this shot string ... it is NOT BROKEN IN YET and would expect it to settle down further after a few 1000 cycles.
Thanks for following along ...
Regards,
Scott
Just want to add a pic of one made from stainless steel.
(http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s501/milo741/imagejpg1_zps8d24eba3.jpg) (http://s1055.photobucket.com/user/milo741/media/imagejpg1_zps8d24eba3.jpg.html)
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Drool :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
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Not wanting to hijack the thread, but here is another example from Roy... very impressive.
Seriously, I talked to Roy two weeks ago about my project and today something showed up in the mail:
(http://imageshack.com/a/img834/6087/vrjy.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img845/6288/acdl.jpg)
Stainless Steel, 0.740" OD... 1150PSI regulator. The Challenger CH2009 project is so close to completion! Blueing the lower tube tomorrow night!
Matt
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Very cool !!
Should have a P-rod reg from Roy landing here any day now also ;)
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Ohhhhhhh! Post up result potentials on that one.
Good results would be an awesome add on for my double air P(up)-rod project.
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Just did a COMPLETE reg conversion for another GTA member on a .177 Syn-Rod using another one of MILO74's brass regulators.
Getting super consistency Reg to Reg .... Set up this customers rifle to shoot AA 10.3's @ 900 fps.
Barrel work all done and not even seasoned yet blasted 20 shots down range at 30 yards and came up with this 18 + 2 group. ( Double loaded 2 :P ) No stink in this kitchen 8)
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u532/scott_schneider1/DSCF9242_zpscbbb87b3.jpg)
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u532/scott_schneider1/DSCF9241_zpsfb8ca54f.jpg)
Really really liking these regulators !!!
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Very nice. What's the cost?
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Very nice. What's the cost?
That info is within the VERY FIRST post of this thread ???
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=65221.msg621401#msg621401 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=65221.msg621401#msg621401)
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Very cool !!
Should have a P-rod reg from Roy landing here any day now also ;)
Just a Tad late update on the P-rod regulator from Milo74 ;D
* Cut and paste sent to the pistols owner a few week ago.
Kevin,
Well with velocity adjuster at mid way ... how about those Falcon 7.3's at @ 775 fps making 9.74 ft lbs and doing 60 shots. ** No lie .... stupid efficiency beyond my expectations !!
Sweet spot looks to be @ 2800 fill and taking 40 shots.
Spread for that 40 shots has a LOW of 775 and a HIGH of 783 .... ES of 8 fps
This WILL tighten up further as regulator settles / breaks in.
** That is where we're at right now with a balanced tune having gun running once off the Reg without dipping or spiking in velocity.
This 60 shots on a 3K fill shooting down to 1k ( Reg set at @ 1.5K )
Want it shooting faster just tighten up the hammer tension a tad, tho shots will only be stable while under regulation which most likely going to be @ 30-35 *Right now it's in the velocity / power sweet spot however.
You should love it, pistol is shooting AWESOME !!! set were it is currently.
Pistol is not getting into owners hands till the End of June being delivered to him at the Ashland Oregon States FT championship.
Until then all we got on the P-rod regulator 8) 8)
Scott
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Dang.
Is that with the factory hammer, or one of your weight watcher specials?
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Dang.
Is that with the factory hammer, or one of your weight watcher specials?
Hammer used was one already in pistol that was a RL customs 22XX based .177 cal FT rig running on 3K. Hammer looked like a typical 22XX hammer that had been drilled out down entire depth of spring cavity. Then having a delrin guide dropped in to center the spring. * never weighed however.
Give me a couple days to pop it out and get a weight ... likely THAT is important to other tuners ???
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Just did a COMPLETE reg conversion for another GTA member on a .177 Syn-Rod using another one of MILO74's brass regulators.
Getting super consistency Reg to Reg .... Set up this customers rifle to shoot AA 10.3's @ 900 fps.
Barrel work all done and not even seasoned yet blasted 20 shots down range at 30 yards and came up with this 18 + 2 group. ( Double loaded 2 :P ) No stink in this kitchen 8)
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u532/scott_schneider1/DSCF9242_zpscbbb87b3.jpg)
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u532/scott_schneider1/DSCF9241_zpsfb8ca54f.jpg)
Really really liking these regulators !!!
I love it. This is the target delivered to me with the rifle this morning. Yes he was using Crosman 10.5 from the tin:
(http://i1356.photobucket.com/albums/q733/barnydaddy/28f31372485a9b39945b4029ef7ca18a_zpsdeb4e1f0.jpg)
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Please everyone... allow me to ask a really "dumb" question here without getting flamed :-)
Will there still be a need for a De-pinger or can the regulator also act as one, thus killing two birds with one stone? Please forgive my ignorance.
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Please everyone... allow me to ask a really "dumb" question here without getting flamed :-)
Will there still be a need for a De-pinger or can the regulator also act as one, thus killing two birds with one stone? Please forgive my ignorance.
Lol .... No problem.
NO depinger required once a regulator is within air tube.
* The sound signature of the popping valve no longer pings the air tube because the regulator isolates valve from primary air tube ;)
Savvy
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Awesome!!! Thanks for such a smooth reply... without taking my head off :-)
I'll test my luck with one more seemingly dumb question. Can I get one for my BAM B 50? I mean is the guy only making them for certain pellguns?
I suppose that's two questions :-)
P
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Awesome!!! Thanks for such a smooth reply... without taking my head off :-)
I'll test my luck with one more seemingly dumb question. Can I get one for my BAM B 50? I mean is the guy only making them for certain pellguns?
I suppose that's two questions :-)
P
Of which should be directly asked: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=profile;u=9821 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=profile;u=9821)
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Thanks again Motorhead.
I shot him a PM... (Pun intended) :-)
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ugh... all this regulator talk makes me want to get one for my disco double!!!!!!!
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Milo asked me a very good question. The only problem is, I don't know how to answer the question. On my BAM B 50, how would I go about determining the set pressure for a regulator? Milo asked what set pressure I was looking for. All I could provide is the current MV with my pellet weights. His regulator maxes out at 2000 psi. My BAM B 50 fill pressure is 200 bar max (2900 psi). Is that a problem?
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Milo asked me a very good question. The only problem is, I don't know how to answer the question. On my BAM B 50, how would I go about determining the set pressure for a regulator? Milo asked what set pressure I was looking for. All I could provide is the current MV with my pellet weights. His regulator maxes out at 2000 psi. My BAM B 50 fill pressure is 200 bar max (2900 psi). Is that a problem?
IMO ... in .177 cal @ 1600# in .22 1800# is what i find to be good average to start with.
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Milo asked me a very good question. The only problem is, I don't know how to answer the question. On my BAM B 50, how would I go about determining the set pressure for a regulator? Milo asked what set pressure I was looking for. All I could provide is the current MV with my pellet weights. His regulator maxes out at 2000 psi. My BAM B 50 fill pressure is 200 bar max (2900 psi). Is that a problem?
Once you determine the fill pressure you want, how are you going to set it without a gauge on the B50?
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Milo asked me a very good question. The only problem is, I don't know how to answer the question. On my BAM B 50, how would I go about determining the set pressure for a regulator? Milo asked what set pressure I was looking for. All I could provide is the current MV with my pellet weights. His regulator maxes out at 2000 psi. My BAM B 50 fill pressure is 200 bar max (2900 psi). Is that a problem?
The "set pressure" you're looking for is the point in the curve where you're getting the best velocity, lowest deviation. You need to run a few strings from your top pressure to your bottom pressure and study the curve. When you determine where the "knee" of the curve is (as rsterne calls it) then you shoot a string from the regular fill pressure to that point. Let's say, for illustration sake, that you've determined that shot number 12 is the beginning of the "sweet spot" and it carries through to shot 24. You can then stop a string at 12, find the pressure (ie: pump or fill from your tank until you hear the valve click open and determine at what pressure that happened). Fill it back up, shoot to the other end of the string - shot 24 - and then determine the pressure. You now know that your "sweet spot" is between H psi and L psi of pressure. (H = high pressure L = low pressure). You can then choose what point to set your regulator at.
So, in your experiments you find that your original 2900 PSI fill yields you a nice almost flat curve from 2,500 to 1,600 PSI. You could set your regulator at any point in that pressure range and have it work. But if you set it towards the lower end of the pressure range you'll end up with a greater number of regulated shots until it "drops off" the regulator. If you set it at the lower end of the fill pressure you'll have your valve working in the range that it works best at and will have a greater number of shots "on tap" in the higher pressure end of the fill tube. You can keep filling it to the max of 2900 psi instead of lowering the fill pressure to get only the shots contained in the "sweet spot".
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Determining the setpoint pressure in that way will often result too high a pressure.... I think you are confused between the "sweet spot" in an unregulated gun WHERE THE PRESSURE IS DROPPING and the "knee" when you plot velocity vs. hammer strike AT CONSTANT PRESSURE.... The width of the sweet spot will depend on what you decide is an acceptable extreme spread (ES).... If, for example, you choose 4%, you may get a pressure range of (using the numbers above) of 2,500 down to 1,600 psi that peaks at maybe 2000 psi.... If you choose 2000 psi for your setpoint you are attempting to regulate the gun at it's highest power, and that is likely too high a value to use as it will limit your shot count.... Selecting a higher pressure really has no value at all, as you are getting less velocity and even fewer shots.... I would be looking at using 1600 psi as the setpoint because you are only 4% down from the peak velocity and have much more "headroom" in the tank, which means the difference between the tank fill pressure and the setpoint is greater, giving more shots.... In other words, in the above example, I would tune to pressure "L psi" (1600)....
The term "knee" is something I coined (at least I never heard it before I started using it) to describe the relationship between hammer strike and velocity AT CONSTANT PRESSURE, regardless of what that pressure is.... Some people are using it to describe the sweet spot in an unregulated gun, but that is incorrect.... When you have a PCP running at constant pressure (ie regulated) and you try increasing the hammer strike (usually by increasing the preload) you will find a point at which you no longer get an increase in velocity, but the increased valve dwell just keeps using more air.... If you graph that, you get something like this....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/QB%20on%20HPA/QB79NinjaDelrin1200_zps999456be.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/QB%20on%20HPA/QB79NinjaDelrin1200_zps999456be.jpg.html)
What I call the "knee" of the curve would be between 4-5 turns out from coil bind on that graph.... Above that is the "plateau" where you get little or no velocity increase with increased preload, but the efficiency tanks.... Below that is the "downslope" where reducing the preload decreases the velocity.... The "knee" is the transition point between the two, and tuning to that point will give you the highest efficiency at nearly full power.... This point corresponds to approximately tuning as if the gun was unregulated with the peak of the velocity curve slightly below the regulator setpoint you have.... Tuning on the "downslope" is tuning on what in an unregulated gun would be the first part of the "sweet spot", ie before the velocity peak....
If you look at what your regulated shot string looks like at different points on the above curve, this is what you will find....
1. If the gun is running on the "plateau", it will be using a lot of air, be very loud, and once you hit the setpoint the velocity will tank quickly....
2. If the gun is running on the "knee", it will be more efficient and quieter, and the velocity will rise a few fps for a short distance below the setpoint before declining....
3. If the gun is running on the "downslope", it will have less power, be very quiet (and efficient), but once the tank pressure drops below the setpoint the velocity will begin to increase, eventually peaking (exactly like in an unregulated gun) before declining....
I hope that helps people understand the difference between what I call the "knee" in a constant pressure situation, and the "sweet spot" in an unregulated gun....
Bob
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Thank you for clearing that up, Bob.
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Thank you gentleman, for that information. I actually understood all of it :-)
Still one question. How will all of that help me determine what the set pressure will be to maintain approx 900 fps. How can I know (for example) if 1600 psi will allow me to get a consistent 900 fps before I install any regulator in it? Don't I have to provide a "set pressure" for the initial setting? Seems like there would be a way to determine the initial setting that would get me close, then fine tune from there. Is there just no way other than trial and error?
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Providing you have a plenum (volume between the regulator and valve) of about 1 cc per FPE the gun is intended to produce.... then you should be able to run a setpoint that produces the velocity you want in the unregulated gun, or only slightly above.... If your gun shoots 900 fps at 1600 psi, you should be able to accomplish that if you regulate to 1600-1700.... However, getting that much volume downstream of an in-tube regulator may cost you too many shots because of the volume you have to take away from the (upstream) reservoir.... If you drop the plenum down to 1/2 cc per FPE, you will likely have to increase the setpoint roughly another 10% to get back to where you were because the small volume will cause the pressure DURING THE SHOT to fall too much.... Going even smaller will severely restrict both the power output and the efficiency....
Bob
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Thank you gentleman, for that information. I actually understood all of it :-)
Still one question. How will all of that help me determine what the set pressure will be to maintain approx 900 fps. How can I know (for example) if 1600 psi will allow me to get a consistent 900 fps before I install any regulator in it? Don't I have to provide a "set pressure" for the initial setting? Seems like there would be a way to determine the initial setting that would get me close, then fine tune from there. Is there just no way other than trial and error?
In your case ... We really need some info on WHAT CALIBER your working with, WEIGHT pellet you wish to go 900 FPS and such info.
Having done MUCH regulated tuning you maybe chasing performance gun simply can't deliver ???
.177 cal shooting 10.3s at 900 easy !!
.22 cal shooting 18's at 900 NOT so easy !!
Thus the question asked ???
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Recently I've been using CPHP @ 14.3 gr, and JSB Exact Jumbo Express @ 14.35 gr. That's in .22 cal of course. I haven't tried the heavy 18 gr pellets. I doubt I could maintain approx 900 fps if I switched to those heavier pellets. Beside I like the 14.3 gr pellets. I can snipe birds and rabbits at 100 yards just fine with them.
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Recently I've been using CPHP @ 14.3 gr, and JSB Exact Jumbo Express @ 14.35 gr. That's in .22 cal of course. I haven't tried the heavy 18 gr pellets. I doubt I could maintain approx 900 fps if I switched to those heavier pellets. Beside I like the 14.3 gr pellets. I can snipe birds and rabbits at 100 yards just fine with them.
14.3's in .22 making 900 fps is no problem under regulation with required valve mods.
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Yeah, I haven't made any mods to the gun yet. She is all stock right now.
After I get this regulator thing sorted out, I need to get a "muffler" for it. If ya know what I mean. It's really loud. My neighbors thought I was shooting a .22 cal LR in my back yard. I also want to make my own stock. I want to convert my BAM B50 to a bull pup! That way it will be MUCH shorter, and better balanced. I live on a Golf course so when Golfers and my neighbors see me with it, they'll think it is some sort of a toy or a harmless BB gun. Plus I think Bull Pups are cool looking:-)
P
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Very interesting.
For comparison, I have my GenII Synrod tuned to give me 70 shots, 970-990-970, CPL's from 2500 to 1500.
How difficult is it to install a regulator in a Marauder?
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ugh... all this regulator talk makes me want to get one for my disco double!!!!!!!
MichaelM,
Ordered one for my Disco Double yesterday, My Disco is modified for 3000 PSI so when I get the Regulator from Milo74 I will post results on the forum somewhere! Will let you and everyone know how it goes, first got to figure out the correct way to install and how much volume I need between the valve and regulator. Also need to know if I have to drill a vent hole or remove gauge block! I am pretty sure I need a vent hole as Motorhead talked about.
William
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ugh... all this regulator talk makes me want to get one for my disco double!!!!!!!
MichaelM,
Ordered one for my Disco Double yesterday, My Disco is modified for 3000 PSI so when I get the Regulator from Milo74 I will post results on the forum somewhere! Will let you and everyone know how it goes, first got to figure out the correct way to install and how much volume I need between the valve and regulator. Also need to know if I have to drill a vent hole or remove gauge block! I am pretty sure I need a vent hole as Motorhead talked about.
William
Ah, does the spacer not come with the regulator??? I thought the spacer was all ready to go. Just drop it in, and slide the regulator into it's new home. Is that not the case? I did know about the drilling the hole part.
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No, they do not come with a spacer, most people make theirs from 3/4" O.D. x 0.049"-0.065" Wall Thickness Aluminium Tubing. The OD of the tubing will need to be turned/sanded down to a loose slip fit to the I.D. of the air tube. IMHO, it is better to have a "Diablo" style spacer instead of a tube"Ring" spacer (The Diablo style wastes less volume), but they are much more involved to machine, and generally not worth the effort on a 3/4" I.D. Tube unless you are needing a lot of muzzle energy per shot.
It is generally accepted that 1CC of Plenum volume is required for every 10Ft-Lbs 1 Ft-Lbs of muzzle energy desired.
Technically, the most accurate way to measure the true plenum volume is to measure the volume of the valve body with the valve and valve spring installed and the gauge block with the manometer installed using a liquid such as distilled water or low viscosity silicone oil (5 weight Radio Controlled Car Silicone Shock oil is another good one) using a fine scale graduated cylinder filled to a specific volume of liquid, and dispensing it into the part being being measured until all air is displaced and the meniscus is flush with the top of the part, then note how much oil was used out of the graduated cylinder. (Taking me waaaay back to my Two and Four Stroke engine tuning days...)
Some helpful notations: For 3/4"/0.750" I.D. Air Tubes...
Using 0.049" Thickness tubing will result in 1CC of volume per ~0.183" (4.65mm) of tube length.
Using 0.058" Thickness tubing will result in 1CC of volume per ~0.193" (4.90mm) of tube length.
Using 0.065" Thickness tubing will result in 1CC of volume per ~0.202" (5.13mm) of tube length.
As far as drilling the Breather hole for the Regulator, once you have established the plenum volume and made the plenum spacer, you can Try-fit everything into the Air Tube, then use a wooden dowel to find the end of the regulator in the air and add the distance from the end of the regulator to the middle of the two Air Tube O-Ring grooves on the Regulator. You may want to favor the air reservoir side a little in case you want to increase the plenum volume a bit in the future without purchasing a new Air Tube.
For de-burring a steel Air Tube, I prefer to use a BRM Fine-Grit Flex Hone. (Another nod to my engine building days...). If you can find them, inside de-burring bits are also available, but pricey and very fragile in the sizes we are apt to use. I use them in Aluminium though.
Best,
Matt
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It is generally accepted that 1CC of Plenum volume is required for every 10Ft-Lbs of muzzle energy desired.
I would appreciate your source for that information.... I recommend 1 cc per FPE, and even that will cause about a 100 psi drop in pressure during the shot.... At 1 cc per FPE, and assuming 100 bar (1450 psi) and an efficiency of 1 FPE/CI, the pressure will drop according to the following, using an example of 30 FPE and a 30 cc plenum:
30 FPE will use 30 CI of air at 1 bar.... At 100 bar pressure, that is 0.3 CI of air, which is 4.92 cc (call it 5).... You are starting with 30 cc at 100 bar and using ~5 cc of that so the remaining 25 cc expands to fill the 30 cc space, dropping the pressure from 100 bar to ( 100 x 25 / 30 ) = 83 bar.... The average pressure during the shot is 91.5 bar (1327 psi).... Therefore the gun shoots as if it was running 1327 psi instead of 1450.... For it to have a higher pressure would require the regulator to top up the pressure during the 1-2 milliseconds that the valve is open.... If you install a pressure gauge between the regulator and the valve, you can SEE the pressure drop if the plenum volume is small, and it can take up to a full second to recover completely to the setpoint.... The smaller the plenum, the greater the pressure drop.... You have to compensate for that by running a higher setpoint, or you will have less power than the gun had at the same pressure in unregulated form....
If you carry this to the extreme, like your 1cc per 10 FPE suggestion, for the example of a 30 FPE gun, you only have 3 cc of 100 bar air on deck in the plenum.... If you used all of this air, and expanded it completely to 1 bar, you would have 300 cc of air to work with, which is only 18.3 CI.... To get 30 FPE would require an efficiency of ( 30 / 18.3 ) = 1.64 FPE/CI and I have never seen a regulated gun deliver 30 FPE at that kind of efficiency.... 3 cc of air at 100 bar is about what some pumpers run, and they don't produce 30 FPE....
A perfect example of this is a QB79 compared to a QB78.... If you run them at the same regulated pressure, the '78, with a plenum of about 55 cc, delivers a LOT more power and efficiency than the '79 which only has about 5 cc.... Yes, the '79 still shoots, but compared to what the exact same setup does with a larger plenum, it's pretty anemic.... To get it to shoot like the '78 you have to run a higher setpoint, and the more FPE the gun is tuned for, the greater the difference between the two guns....
Bob
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You're right, Bob...I had my units wrong... 1 FPE/1CC... you are my source, in fact. But at least I did the measurements right :)
Edited my post to correct the error...
If you install a pressure gauge between the regulator and the valve, you can SEE the pressure drop if the plenum volume is small, and it can take up to a full second to recover completely to the setpoint....
Oddly enough...
(http://imageshack.com/a/img839/3114/nlln.jpg)
I could look at that little needle all day while velocity testing...
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Boy,
You guys are starting to scare the heck out of me now. I had no idea I was gonna have to do all that math, and testing and measuring. Right now I'm getting about 900 fps with a 14.35 gr .22 cal pellet. Based on Chairgun that comes to 25.80 ft lbs of energy. I think the total CC for the BAM B50 is 196cc in the reservoir. So are you saying to maintain that I'll need about 25.8 cc of air space between the back of the regulator, and the valve?
The inside diameter of the tube is 26.50 mm / 1.0430 inches.
Also "Using 0.049" Thickness tubing will result in 1CC of volume per ~0.183" (4.65mm) of tube length." as a guide. To get 25.8 cc I would need a spacer 4.72 inches in length. That can't be right... can it? That would eat up a lot of my space and greatly reduce my 196cc fill capacity wouldn't it. Maybe this isn't such a good idea after all.
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It's not as bad as you might think... Those measurements in the post above are for an Air Tube of 0.750" I.D.
Your Tube is 26.5mm I.D.... your spacer would have to be about 24.5mm I.D. or thereabouts. In this case, the I.D. is large enough to where the Diablo-style spacer would waste a little less internal volume.
The internal volume of a 24.5mm I.D. spacer is about 11.98CCs per inch, so for 25.8 Ft-lbs, you're talking about a spacer about 54.7mm/2.153" long plus the volume of the Regulator...
The bonus is a consistent shot string, the downside is slightly fewer shots.
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean by a "diablo style" spacer. Is there a link to an example?
So I could cut the spacer at 2.1 inches and go with that?
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Yes, you have the right idea.... To maintain your FPE at the same pressure you need to aim for about 1 cc between the regulator and the valve SEAT for each FPE.... Note that the volume inside the valve (and inside a firing pot) count, PROVIDING that you can get more flow into the valve (and firing pot) than out of it.... A firing pot, like they use in a 12 FPE Air Arms, complicates things because it has a tiny air inlet.... so adding a large plenum in front of it does little to nothing, you may as well just stick the regulator right against it.... Those guns are tuned for low power, so they don't need a lot of air....
Note, you can get away with about 1/2 cc per FPE if you increase the setpoint of the regulator a bit, maybe 100-200 psi.... That extra 10 bar or so makes up for the lack of volume, and is the reason in tube regulators work so well in low-medium powered PCPs without requiring a large plenum.... Set the gun up for 12 FPE, use a 6 cc plenum (heck the valve is already 2-3 cc) and increase the setpoint 10 bar and you're golden.... Even at 25 FPE with a 12.5 cc plenum my QB79 Ninja works on only 1200 psi.... However, try and build a gun like my 2560, which shoots 52 FPE on 1900 psi, and you won't do it without a huge plenum.... I use the entire 2260 tube, which is 65 cc....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/22%20PCP/IMG_2840.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/22%20PCP/IMG_2840.jpg.html)
Bob
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Added another reg for marauder rifle ,with 15cc plenum built-in without drilling a breath hole,to install just need to pull the air gauge and block out.the reg is adjustable from 1000psi to 2200 psi.
(http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s501/milo741/imagejpg1_zps1d84661f.jpg) (http://s1055.photobucket.com/user/milo741/media/imagejpg1_zps1d84661f.jpg.html)
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Well played !!
Such FINE regulators your making for us !!
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Hey Motorhead,
A few Questions:
Does this newer version represent a noticeable improvement vs. the older style or is it just the "bells/whistles" convenience of not having to drill the air tank?
Practically speaking, do you think being locked into a 15 cc internal plenum is limiting?
Does the seemingly added length reduce overall tank volume vs. previous model or about the same as "old" + plenum?
Thanks again.........Not trying to pick, just understand,
Kirk
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I assume you don't have to drill because it vents through the gauge hole.... Using the space that the gauge block occupied as the (internal) plenum makes good sense, but the necessity for O-rings may mean that the ID is smaller than a simple tube spacer.... Just a WAG as I've never seen one.... Nicely made though!!!....
Bob
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Hey Motorhead,
A few Questions:
Does this newer version represent a noticeable improvement vs. the older style or is it just the "bells/whistles" convenience of not having to drill the air tank?
Practically speaking, do you think being locked into a 15 cc internal plenum is limiting?
Does the seemingly added length reduce overall tank volume vs. previous model or about the same as "old" + plenum?
Thanks again.........Not trying to pick, just understand,
Kirk
Had inquired to the wall thickness of the plenum if it would hold 1/8-27 threading and a gauge ? .... was told the design shown only has @ .070" wall, so No gauge on this one.
As too the better / worse with a fixed 15cc plenum ?
Keep in mind volume you also have within valves I.D. and threw its cap ... likely total volume enough for tunes up to @ 30 ft lbs covering realistic need of .177 & .22 applications. Venting out the gauge hole allows removal to stock reg-less use if wanted.
That said ... it will NOT replace the typical universal fit type where you have greater freedom of increases or decreases in plenum volume.
Universal types while needing a drilled vent hole are better suited to tuners who understand the manipulation of all the valve dynamics and not needing or wanting simple drop in convenience ;)
JMO ....
Scott
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I agree, if the plenum is 15cc plus maybe another 3cc for the valve, you will definitely be OK for any .177 project, and .22 cal for the power you would normally go for with a regulator.... Since it's adjustable up to 2200 psi, you can dial the power up, all that will happen is the shot count will drop....
Bob
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Thanks again Motorhead and Bob,
- What is the significance of the gauge discussion (are we referring to the potential of adding an external pressure gauge)?
- Since this version offers adjustable psi up to 2200, how is this different than changing the set-point up to 2000 psi on the "older one". It is much harder or not possible to adjust the setpoint?
- Since my thinking is purely aimed at the BAM B50, remaining HP volume in front of the regulator is critical for more shots. Does this regulator's seemingly larger mass reduce this remainder?
Let me know if I'm blowing smoke!
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What are the cross sectional sizes of the piston o-rings for this unit?
1/16......3/32.....2mm ?
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What are the cross sectional sizes of the piston o-rings for this unit?
1/16......3/32.....2mm ?
1/16
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Just finished this one,should fit disco,prod and 1720.with 9cc built in plenum,adjustable from 1000 to 2000psi without drilling a breathe hole.
(http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s501/milo741/imagejpg1_zpsf3eb5127.jpg) (http://s1055.photobucket.com/user/milo741/media/imagejpg1_zpsf3eb5127.jpg.html)
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The way I found where to drill the breathe hole was I dropped in my plenum, shoved a dowel rod down until it hit the end of my plenum and marked it. then laid the rod next to my barrel on the outside using my mark as the end, laid the regulator on the dowel and marked the outside of the tube with a sharpie.
My breathe hole is almost on top of the regulator hole. I realize it doesn't matter where it is as long as it is between the orings, however it was pretty neat I managed to get it that close.
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hi Milo
is there a difference between the 1720 & the 1701 ?
i just acquired a 1701 and am interested in a regulator for it
and the Milo regulator in my Mrod is doing great
Just finished this one,should fit disco,prod and 1720.with 9cc built in plenum,adjustable from 1000 to 2000psi without drilling a breathe hole.
(http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s501/milo741/imagejpg1_zpsf3eb5127.jpg) (http://s1055.photobucket.com/user/milo741/media/imagejpg1_zpsf3eb5127.jpg.html)
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hi Milo
is there a difference between the 1720 & the 1701 ?
i just acquired a 1701 and am interested in a regulator for it
and the Milo regulator in my Mrod is doing great
Just finished this one,should fit disco,prod and 1720.with 9cc built in plenum,adjustable from 1000 to 2000psi without drilling a breathe hole.
(http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s501/milo741/imagejpg1_zpsf3eb5127.jpg) (http://s1055.photobucket.com/user/milo741/media/imagejpg1_zpsf3eb5127.jpg.html)
It fits 7/8 tube with .745 id,1702 and 1701 ,I think share the same tube.
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are you making some for us :D ?
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are you making some for us :D ?
I can make couple more,I don't think ,you guys want to shoot pcp without a pressure gauge.
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you are correct at least for me
i would need a gauge to tell me what i can't remember
I can make couple more,I don't think ,you guys want to shoot pcp without a pressure gauge.
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For the Disco et al regulator with the 9cc plenum.... what locates it in the tube?.... Do you remove the gauge block (it's downstream anyway, pretty useless to tell what pressure is remaining) and let the regulator sit against the valve?.... (that would allow it to breathe through the gauge hole in the tube).... or does the gauge block remain in place with the regulator pushing against it?.... That wouldn't allow it to breathe through the gauge hole in the tube, and it would be forcing the gauge block back until the side of the gauge is pressing on the tube.... In a normal (unregged) installation there is equal pressure on either side of the gauge block, so it stays centered (no end force on it).... Since the reg. has more pressure on the front side than the back, it will slide back, so it needs something to sit against....
Bob