GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Weihrauch Airguns => Topic started by: max115 on March 28, 2014, 03:25:52 AM
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With the weather getting warmer as of late, I was able to get out to our "Plink" range to shoot my HW97K .22 and HW97KL .177 with new Hawke Varmint 4-16x44mm and 6-24x44mm, respectively.
Something I had never thought of before with my two HWs. After upgrading to the two Varmint scopes over a month ago, I have only been shooting both guns indoor at 14 yards. My groups were ok but not consistent day to day. It was only after last Sunday's shoot that I found out both of my HWs have barrel droop! I was unable to raise the POI at 25 yards because I had reached my max elevation. I didn't realize at first and thought here we go again, scope problem.
Thanks to my friend who has better knowledge with rifle/scope. He advised me to "mechanically centering" my scope by finding the mid point of the max-min clicks in both the elevation and windage. After carefully clicking and counting the number of clicks to determine the half-way point, I re-mounted the scope back on my HW and shoot at the target. Long and behold, the POI was 6" lower and a bit to the left for my first Varmint scope. So, indeed both of my HW has some barrel droop issues to certain degree. I tried different shim thickness for each gun and I was able to hit my target dead centre at 14 yards with minimum click adjustments.
What a relief! The scopes were non-defective and my guns are shooting true as long as I do my part. I am extremely happy now that I got that figured out. Everything that I thought I knew or assumed were incorrect in the past! I blamed the other new scopes before when I was having trouble holding my zeros consistently in the past.
Two important lessons I learned: Firstly, if the inner tube of your scope is not free-floating at its true centre, as least closed to it, your POI will risk the chance of moving around and not staying on zero especially if your elevation or windage is turned too much one way or another and "pinching" occur inside the scope. Secondly, check if your barrel has droop issue.
So I hope my mistakes and my findings will help some of you out there if you are having problems holding zero with your scope or reaching max elevation on your turret. Check for barrel droop!!!!
good luck and cheers.
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Or you could just get a drooper mount to set your scope on to compensate for it without having to shim it. All my rifles have some soret of droop including also my HW97K. Begining to believe it is inherent for all springers! :o
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With the weather getting warmer as of late, I was able to get out to our "Plink" range to shoot my HW97K .22 and HW97KL .177 with new Hawke Varmint 4-16x44mm and 6-24x44mm, respectively.
Something I had never thought of before with my two HWs. After upgrading to the two Varmint scopes over a month ago, I have only been shooting both guns indoor at 14 yards. My groups were ok but not consistent day to day. It was only after last Sunday's shoot that I found out both of my HWs have barrel droop! I was unable to raise the POI at 25 yards because I had reached my max elevation. I didn't realize at first and thought here we go again, scope problem.
Thanks to my friend who has better knowledge with rifle/scope. He advised me to "mechanically centering" my scope by finding the mid point of the max-min clicks in both the elevation and windage. After carefully clicking and counting the number of clicks to determine the half-way point, I re-mounted the scope back on my HW and shoot at the target. Long and behold, the POI was 6" lower and a bit to the left for my first Varmint scope. So, indeed both of my HW has some barrel droop issues to certain degree. I tried different shim thickness for each gun and I was able to hit my target dead centre at 14 yards with minimum click adjustments.
What a relief! The scopes were non-defective and my guns are shooting true as long as I do my part. I am extremely happy now that I got that figured out. Everything that I thought I knew or assumed were incorrect in the past! I blamed the other new scopes before when I was having trouble holding my zeros consistently in the past.
Two important lessons I learned: Firstly, if the inner tube of your scope is not free-floating at its true centre, as least closed to it, your POI will risk the chance of moving around and not staying on zero especially if your elevation or windage is turned too much one way or another and "pinching" occur inside the scope. Secondly, check if your barrel has droop issue.
So I hope my mistakes and my findings will help some of you out there if you are having problems holding zero with your scope or reaching max elevation on your turret. Check for barrel droop!!!!
good luck and cheers.
I prefer to "bend the barrel" rather than "shim the scope" after centering the reticle and I did so with my HW77k and my R9s till the point of impact is within 1/2" at 30 yards, then the zero is "fine tuned" with the turrets. IMHO, 14 yards is too close to have the poi at the aim point of a centered scope, especially on a HW77/97 where the large receiver diameter plus the scope ring height puts the center of the scope relatively high above the center of the bore. Ya see , that pellet needs to rise a couple inches in only 14 yards to get to the "first zero" using a centered scope. This also means that your "mid range trajectory" will be REALLY high above your aim point before the pellet falls to your "second zero" WAY down range. This will force you to "hold under" for all shots till the pellet gets to the "second zero distance" and "hold under" for distances shorter than the "first zero distance" and the "second zero distance".
Personally, I prefer to zero my R9 (and the HW77k before I sold it) near the apex of the pellet flight which is about 25-28 yards depending on the tune level of my gun, the pellet being shot, the scope rings used, and the scope itself. This is why I choose to "bend the barrel" till the poi is within about 1/2" of the aim point of my optically centered scope at 30 yards. This setup means that I only have to remember to either "hold on" or "hild high" for all distances without also having to remember which distances to "hold under".
As a side note......I always "tweak my barrels via bending" after centering the scope, however I've found that if I mount the scope in my BKL mount and adjust the poi at 30 yards, then remount the centered scope in my Sports Match style mounts the poi will be off and the barrel will need to be "re-tweaked" since even the scope mount being used will affect the poi of an optically centered scope.
You can do as you please with your HW97 setup but, IMHO, 14 yards is too short of a distance to center the point of impact of an optically centered scope sitting in mounts on the rather large diameter receiver! Again....IMHO.......better to zero the optically centered scope at 30 yards for .177 cal (or even 25 yards for the .22 cal) and compensate for you 14 yard shots using holdover! Actually, I'm betting that if you used a 30 yard zero with your .177 cal (assuming factory HW97 power), your aim point for the 14 yard shots would be REAL close to the same aim point for a 32 yard shot with the midrange rise only about 1/8" high at about 26 yards. This is where a scope with a "dotted style reticle" is really handy. Matter of fact, this is how I have my .177 R9 set up and I mark the AO of my scope according to the "focus distance" at 12 power. Here's a pic of my "range tape"...........
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/wved/Airguns/Scopes_Mounts/VortexMarks.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wved/media/Airguns/Scopes_Mounts/VortexMarks.jpg.html)
The "Z" is my zero distance (25 yards in this case), if after focusing for the shot the "+" lines up with the marker I know to hold "crosshair on", if a "." lines up I know to hold "one dot high", if a vertical "dot slash dot" ".|." lines up after focusing I know to hold "between the first and second lower dot" (remember all aim points are either dead on or hold over), if two vertical dots ".." are lined up with the marker after focusing I know to hold "two dots high".
Here is the setup I used when I had a duplex reticle scope.......
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/wved/Airguns/Scopes_Mounts/VortexDiamondbackscoperangetape.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wved/media/Airguns/Scopes_Mounts/VortexDiamondbackscoperangetape.jpg.html)
The "+" means "crosshair on", the "[" means to hold between the tip of the reticle post and crosshair (i.e. bracket the aim), the "." means aim with the tip of the post, etc.
Anywhoo........there are adjustable mounts that allow adjusting the poi using an optically mounted scope with resorting to "scope tube bending shims" or "barrel bending". Years ago I used a couple versions of adjustable mounts and didn't like the tediousness of setting them up so I started "bending barrels" instead.
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thank you both for your feedback.
I do intend to zero my scope at 25-28 yards this Sunday (hopefully sunny). Both of my HWs are high power so these zero range is optimal.
I only have a 14yards indoor range where I get to plink when ever I could.
I will need to study and research more with the marking system that you (nced) mentioned, a bit complicated to me for now :D since I am a newbie. But I will definitely invest my time into learning there is to learn about FT.
thanks!
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For Break Barrel guns .... also a barrel bender to get correct alignment ;)
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bend em......works like a charm.
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I also stand on the bending side of the room, lol, tk
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Well, I am a newbie, but bending a barrel to compensate for droop sounds wacky. I bought a set of Sun Optics adjustable airgun mounts for my HW30 and they work like a charm.
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Well, I am a newbie, but bending a barrel to compensate for droop sounds wacky. I bought a set of Sun Optics adjustable airgun mounts for my HW30 and they work like a charm.
Well, I am a newbie, but bending a barrel to compensate for droop sounds wacky. I bought a set of Sun Optics adjustable airgun mounts for my HW30 and they work like a charm.
Yep....adjustable mounts ARE a viable option, especially if they hold their adjustment! Years ago I tried a couple different adjustable mounts and chucked both in favor of simply bendin' the barrel. Ya see, they were a pain in the butt to set up in the first place and they didn't hold their adjustment over time. I used a "B Square" and the RWS "C" mount so perhaps there are better options now. The "pain in the butt part" was the fact that the scope had to be torqued in the mount, poi tested, then removed to readjust till all was good, and then after the couple hour set-up session the zero didn't hold well over the long haul! LOL....I can bend the barrel and get the poi close enough in a few minutes, plus the poi doesn't shift with scope mount loosening!
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Hi nced,
how do you go about bending the barrel? what tools and method do you use?
not sure if I am brave enough to try that on my HWs, but I do have a diana 24 that I might practice on, lol.
thanks.
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Hi nced,
how do you go about bending the barrel? what tools and method do you use?
not sure if I am brave enough to try that on my HWs, but I do have a diana 24 that I might practice on, lol.
thanks.
My barrel bending tools are a construction lumber "press" and a C-clamp..........
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/wved/Airgun%20Mods/BarrelBend2.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wved/media/Airgun%20Mods/BarrelBend2.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/wved/Airgun%20Mods/R9BarrelBend.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wved/media/Airgun%20Mods/R9BarrelBend.jpg.html)
At my practice range if I need to add "snoop" this forked tree works well but be careful. It's easy to "over bend" a barrel this way or even split the stock if the bending is "ham fisted". It was surprising to me the first time I bent a barrel how little bending was needed to adjust the poi...........
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/wved/Field%20Target/BarrelBendTree.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wved/media/Field%20Target/BarrelBendTree.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/wved/Field%20Target/BarrelBendCrotch.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wved/media/Field%20Target/BarrelBendCrotch.jpg.html)
The "secret" is to bend in tiny amounts till the poi matches the aim point of an optically centered scope within about 1/2" at 30 yards. Even small amounts of barrel bending that can't be seen can move the poi a couple inches at 30 yards so again......bend carefully in small increments!
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The GTA Library is full of great ideas for air guns. You all should take a look sometime. Here is a tool to fix your droopers..
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/library/Charlies%20Barrel%20Tool.pdf (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/library/Charlies%20Barrel%20Tool.pdf)
Gene
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fantastic! thanks nced and gene! I will definitely look into making a "bending tool box" for my Diana 24 first, and if I get positive result and brave enough, I might try bending my HW97s.
thanks again!
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The "Z" is my zero distance (25 yards in this case), if after focusing for the shot the "+" lines up with the marker I know to hold "crosshair on", if a "." lines up I know to hold "one dot high", if a vertical "dot slash dot" ".|." lines up after focusing I know to hold "between the first and second lower dot" (remember all aim points are either dead on or hold over), if two vertical dots ".." are lined up with the marker after focusing I know to hold "two dots high".
This is a brilliant and would so useful for hunting. Definitely going to do this to all my ao scopes if we ever get a non windy day.
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The "Z" is my zero distance (25 yards in this case), if after focusing for the shot the "+" lines up with the marker I know to hold "crosshair on", if a "." lines up I know to hold "one dot high", if a vertical "dot slash dot" ".|." lines up after focusing I know to hold "between the first and second lower dot" (remember all aim points are either dead on or hold over), if two vertical dots ".." are lined up with the marker after focusing I know to hold "two dots high".
This is a brilliant and would so useful for hunting. Definitely going to do this to all my ao scopes if we ever get a non windy day.
This was a spin off from the days I used to mark the AO with actual yardages instead of "aim points". The issue with marking the AO (or sidewheel) with yardages is the fact that you MIGHT need a dope sheet to keep track of where to hold for different distances. In actuality (especially for hunting) I didn't care as much about the distance as I did where to hold and I certainly didn't have time to consult a dope sheet after focusing on a squirrel so the "dots on the AO" are a simple "memory jogger" for where to hold.
There are a couple disadvantages to marking the AO/side wheel with "aim points" rather than "yardages + dope sheet".....or a really good memory without the dope sheet.
1st.....The marks are only good at one power setting. Since my scope can rangefind pretty good out to 35 yards (well, better than I can "eyeball") at 12x I do all my shootin' at 12x.
2nd...The marks are only good for the gun that was used for setting up the marks.
The main advantage for marking yardages is that the marked focus distances are based on the distance to the target and not the ballistics of a particular gun/pellet combination.
The Bushnell Elite 4200 scope on the right shows the transition from when I was marking "yardages" to when I only marked "aim points" using a duplex reticle.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/wved/Airguns/Scopes_Mounts/VortexDiamondbackscoperangetape001.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wved/media/Airguns/Scopes_Mounts/VortexDiamondbackscoperangetape001.jpg.html)
After using the "dual marking" for a while I realized that the "memory joggers" were only valid at one power setting when mounted to the particular gun used for marking so I dispensed with the yardages all together and only used "aim points".
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Hi nced,
After re-reading your suggestion on the markings with "+, - & .", I am beginning to understand the concept about when to hold-over, under etc.
very useful tip! thank you. I will need to get a side wheel to mount over my Hawke Varmint SF nob.
cheers
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Tricks and tips gate. Barrel bending 101. Top of the page. The jig is easy to build. I shoot a lot of old chinese gun. I got to have this. to enjoy these old guns.