GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => China/Asian AirGun Gate => Topic started by: etamme on January 11, 2014, 02:34:03 PM
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Hello all. For those who don't know, Mike from Flying Dragon air rifles is selling a low pressure PCP conversion of the XS60C shipped for $100. There is a HUGE thread over in the vendor gate for Flying Dragon which you can find here http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=58507.0, (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=58507.0,) but I wanted to post my data where more eyes might see it, so here goes.
First things first, pictures of the rifle are here http://i.imgur.com/ZzpJ0hm.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/ZzpJ0hm.jpg)
I ordered the .22 caliber model. I filled to 1500 PSI and shot it for the first time over a chrony. I got unexpected results of only 420fps, so I screwed in the pre-load nearly as much as it would go. My trigger was a bit stiff as well, so I backed off the trigger weight spring a turn and a half. The following are my results after making those changes.
I filled the rifle to 1500psi and made 20 shots over my chrony with .22 CPHP pellets.
(http://i.imgur.com/UDHoaDR.png)
Here are the actual numbers in list form:
- 755
- 757
- 769
- 765
- 813
- 821
- 837
- 866
- 872
- 890
- 893
- 892
- 892
- 884
- 875
- 862
- 856
- 837
- 825
- 815
After the 20th shot, the rifle had 1000psi in it and it took 35 pumps from my Benjamin pump to get it back to 1500psi - quite easy.
The rifle is definitely capable of higher FPS and a better shot string - clearly I need to adjust to get the first few shots more in line with the rest of the string. I have since done some adjusting and achieved 930FPS, but I am still working on putting together a good bell curve shot string.
After shooting over the chrony, I wanted to shoot for grouping, so I filled to 1500psi and shot 20 shots on 4 targets, 5 per target. I did not refill the gun at all during this 20 shot string. I shot this from 15 yards, bench rested on a sand bag using the open fiber optic sights that came on the rifle
(http://i.imgur.com/ynf1sBO.jpg)
I started on target #1, shot 5 shots, then proceeded to target #2, etc. You will notice my grouping improve the more targets I shoot. I generally tried to keep the same sight picture for each target, focusing grouping after the first shot.
The shots on the center target are all from shooting the 20 shot chrony string, and were not shot with any aim/grouping.
My summary
pros
- very inexpensive at $100
- low fill pressure at 1500psi, makes for quick and easy refilling
- excellent velocity and shot count out of such low pressure
- surprisingly nice fit and finish, way better than some $100 wally world plastic rifle
- All metal and wood except for the fiber optic sights - no plastic bits
- easy to adjust the power
- simple design makes for easy disassembly and tweaking
cons
- trigger and bolt action are a bit "gritty" due to rough machining and will require a polish/lube job
- loud
- single stage trigger
I have owned several high end rifles, from a Sam Yang recluse, to a Benjamin Marauder, to an RWS-54 air king and while this rifle is not in the same category as such expensive air guns, it is about the best thing you can get for $100 if you already have a pump, and I would say that if you are looking to get into PCP this could be a great intro gun because of its simplicity, and the fact you can get it and a pump pump for $240 shipped from Flying Dragon.
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Thanks for the data.
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I am still wrapping my head around why the FPS goes up so... Thanks for laying it all out like this makes it easier to understand whats happening.
On mine I swear that the first shots have more ZIP... BUT that was at the box setting of 5 full revolutions on the main spring.. I have begun tuning and started at 2CCW from all the way CCW.
I have to get back on the chrony...
CW
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Hey CW,
It turns out that the trigger group placement can drastically affect the preload setting. The trigger group can slide forward and back a bit as it's mounting holes are slotted vs. a circular hole.
I expect this is the reason for the variation people are getting in the preload screw adjustment.
I am going to remount my trigger group all the way rearward and "standardize" on that. I found that if the grouping is all the way forward, the preload is so low that the rifle may not even fire.
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I knot iced it had the ability to move. When I found my rear screw loose I thought maybe it was supposed to " float"!!
Next chance I get I'll move mine all the way back too.
CW
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I tore my rifle down to the valve, but left that in place, just to get a good idea of how all the cocking, preload etc. worked within the rifle.
Upon reassembly I found out that I could not place my trigger group completely rearward - when I did this, the sear was so far back it would not engage on the hammer catch. With tweaking I found the spot that is as far back as possible where the sear would still engage.
Really I think this rifle needs a more powerful spring so that the trigger group placement is not so critical to adjusting the preload. As I said previously - if the trigger group is all the way forward, the preload can not be adjusted to be heavy enough to get legitimate strings out of the rifle.
I may get some piano wire and see if i cant wind a new, longer compression spring to use for the hammer spring.
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Here is a picture of the trigger internals.
(http://i.imgur.com/SrWjHo3.jpg)
here is a link to a larger image http://i.imgur.com/SrWjHo3.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/SrWjHo3.jpg)
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Here is a large view of the exploded diagram in the back of the manual.
exploded view link to large version: http://i.imgur.com/mFxrEcv.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/mFxrEcv.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/mFxrEcv.jpg)
parts list link to large version: http://i.imgur.com/HKxuGEr.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/HKxuGEr.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/HKxuGEr.jpg)
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Here is one observation when putting the trigger assembly back onto the receiver. If the hammer adjustment bracket which also is the bracket for the rear screw for the trigger assembly is set a bit to high it will break the flange off the trigger group upon tightening the trigger group down.
As for more power Mike did mention adding a spacer or a heavier spring for the hammer. He also mentioned you might try a lighter spring in the valve.
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I now am realizing that I have a LOT to learn about air rifles. but I am the kind that likes taking on new challenges and learning new stuff.
I feel I have come to the right place.
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I now am realizing that I have a LOT to learn about air rifles. but I am the kind that likes taking on new challenges and learning new stuff.
I feel I have come to the right place.
Thankfully this is a GREAT forum for learning about them. Just stay away from the Engineering R&D section unless you want your head to explode... at least for now.
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As for more power Mike did mention adding a spacer or a heavier spring for the hammer. He also mentioned you might try a lighter spring in the valve.
A spacer sounds like a good idea - much smarter than trying to get a whole new spring. Why didn't I think of that he he.
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Here is my latest chrony. I only got one shot string in because my pump blew an o-ring and I didn't get it rebuilt till after dark.
This is with the trigger group mounted completely rearward - I was able to get positive sear engagement on the hammer in this position. I unscrewed the preload all the way, then turned it it 4.5 turns clock wise.
Shooting .22 CPHP at 1500psi fill for a 20 shot string.
(http://i.imgur.com/XQI1B76.png)
After the first two shots, each successive shot dropped about 10FPS pretty consistently - am curious if I can shift the curve a little further right and get a few more at peak.
I am going to back off 1/2 turn and shoot another set of strings at 4 turns tomorrow - I will post results.
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Here is a picture of the trigger internals.
(http://i.imgur.com/SrWjHo3.jpg)
here is a link to a larger image http://i.imgur.com/SrWjHo3.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/SrWjHo3.jpg)
Who stole the lawyer spring?
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Here is a picture of the trigger internals.
(http://i.imgur.com/SrWjHo3.jpg)
here is a link to a larger image http://i.imgur.com/SrWjHo3.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/SrWjHo3.jpg)
I chickened out removing the side plate... I know my limited patience. ::) So after removing the two screws and taking one last look down form the top... I saw the spring and wondered what else was in there I DID NOT see and what was going to go flying. ::) I promptly replaced those screws. A mans gotta know his limitations. ;)
THANK YOU FOR THIS PIC!!!
CW
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Eric, I really like that last string at lot. As a hunter I would prefer the gradual decline in power with shot count and can compensate with mil dots as necessary. Makes things very predictable. The rainbow curve is much harder to predict and I will have to throw away the first 3 or 4 shots until I get into the power curve. I am going to experiment with your settings to try to get my curve looking much more like yours.
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I am also interested in the spacer idea if anyone decides to try that out. I am not as much a tinkerer as a shooter, but can follow along if there are pictures... ;)
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The "rainbow curve" as you describe it is by far the best way to tune a PCP.... Yes, you give away a few fps on the first few shots, but properly tuned, and not getting greedy for shot count, you can have a 4% ES curve that you can forget about up to 50 yards.... no Mil-Dots to worry about except for the range.... I defy you, particularly on a gun without a pressure gauge, to remember how many shots you have fired and then figure out where you are on a constantly declining velocity string and which MilDot you need to use because of that....
Tune the gun for the longest string you can get that starts 4% below the peak (whatever that ends up being), shoot until you are 4% below, and either use a pressure gauge to stop shooting and refill, or have a rough idea of how many shots you can take, shoot less than that, and refill when it is convenient to do so.... My Grouse gun gets 16 shots at 20 FPE, and I've never run it out of air during a days hunting, despite getting my limit many times....
Bob
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Over the last few years that I've owned the 60c I've did several things. One being trying a heavier hammer spring and washers only to come back to the original. The original spring is good. The problem is the transport port which is inside the receive. It needs work.
The trigger in my 60 did not care if it was forward or backwards, once I replaced the trigger spring with a lighter one. The original spring was in a bind because it was to hard, to long and the the set screw was cross thread which caused a lot of problems.
A good polishing of the hammer, sear, bolt, and some light lube will go a long way.
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Okay guys - I think I have a good 10 shot chrony with a max fps deviation of 5.65% - i know 4% is ideal, but this is pretty darn close.
filled to 100 bar (1600 psi) and then bled and removed hose to get an effective 1500PSI in the gun. Shooting .22 CPHP with the trigger group completely rearward, and 3.75 turns clockwise on the preload screw after completely backing it out counter clockwise.
The orange data summary is for all 20 shots, while the yellow data summary is for only the first 10.
here is the large image link: http://i.imgur.com/x0y2p03.png (http://i.imgur.com/x0y2p03.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/x0y2p03.png)
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I also went out and got an interesting shot group and some target practice in at 25 yards. Still shooting smaller than dime size groups (5 shots). For target I was shooting the 18.1 grain JSB diablos, and the chronied shot string was 14.5 grain RWS superdomes, average fps over 22 shots was 833.7, 22.3 fpe, with 18 shots at 800 fps or over. So I am happy with that string. I also shot some at 50 yards, but the JSB's didn't hold a great group, about a 3.5" drop from 25 yards and 1.5" group. Gun was at 1750 PSI. Enjoy.
This is re-post from the FD-PCP info section that has been taken over by trolls.
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Thanks for sharing Scott. Looks encouraging for sure. I'm curious though, have you tried it at a lower pressure at all? You will end up with less shots for certain, but you may be able to zero in on that 'sweet spot' on the curve, shots 7-14 or so. I can't wait for mine to get shipped out so I can start contributing as well.
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Thanks for sharing Scott. Looks encouraging for sure. I'm curious though, have you tried it at a lower pressure at all? You will end up with less shots for certain, but you may be able to zero in on that 'sweet spot' on the curve, shots 7-14 or so. I can't wait for mine to get shipped out so I can start contributing as well.
Yes I have. At 1500 PSI my plateau is about 2 shots and I only have about 10 shots that are above 700 fps. With a quick drop of in fps.
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I also went out and got an interesting shot group and some target practice in at 25 yards. Still shooting smaller than dime size groups (5 shots). For target I was shooting the 18.1 grain JSB diablos, and the chronied shot string was 14.5 grain RWS superdomes, average fps over 22 shots was 833.7, 22.3 fpe, with 18 shots at 800 fps or over. So I am happy with that string. I also shot some at 50 yards, but the JSB's didn't hold a great group, about a 3.5" drop from 25 yards and 1.5" group. Gun was at 1750 PSI. Enjoy.
This is re-post from the FD-PCP info section that has been taken over by trolls.
Thanks for this post Scott!
With a little luck those trolls have had there fillers jerked and leases shortened. Everyone deserves and opinion but when some seem to just jump all over any neg point or issue it gets old fast!!
Anyway enough on that. It's best not to feed and simply ignore them.
I'm looking to improve myown shot string Bob made a post eluding to a couple things in that thread and I am awaiting his reply.
CW
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Who, Me?.... Maybe I'll make you wait until I get my FD-PCP.... it's on order as of this morning....
Bob
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Who, Me?.... Maybe I'll make you wait until I get my FD-PCP.... it's on order as of this morning....
Bob
You better share those cookies Bob. ;) If not, I won't bring anymore milk! ::)
CW
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Already did....
Bob
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Already did....
Bob
;) Thank you. ;)
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My Chrony data. done on 04/06/2014 and 04/09/2014. FD PCP in .22 cal Shooting CPHP 14.3gr
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/slickjenny8019/FDPCPChronysession22_zps9d6e3332.jpg)(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/slickjenny8019/60ca6d16-2571-4653-a91b-3b13ba5d508d_zps2cca19b2.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/slickjenny8019/FDPCPchrony1and2001_zpsa912deef.jpg)(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/slickjenny8019/FDPCPchrony3and4and5001_zpscf3badb9.jpg)
The first 5 tests were done with stock setup which was 1/2 turn on the power screw and the barrel/tube band tight with the barrel touching the tube end cap. I didn't do anything with numbers like the next session where I figured it out. Took lunch on #4 and no more daylight on #5. It was 95 degrees Sunday.
The 2nd session on yellow paper was with the barrel/tube band having a shim under it to keep it tight but not allow the barrel and tube cap to touch, I sanded out the stock a little bit just enough to smooth it out and added an alloy .014 shim between the stock and band and I had to make the counterbore on the stock for the screw a little bit deeper. So far so good. Still searching for the bell curve on a consistent basis. Trying to keep the fps under 900 as I just don't need the extra power.
Also I just noticed my pump gauge glows in the dark!
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The xs60c in pcp is a nice gun but i found my fps ES to be way to high at over 100 fps in a 20 shot string at the speeds i got with mine it should easily give 20 shots at 840 to 850 fps if one can even the string out!
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at 1500 psi fill 20 shot string 793 825 830 835 838 845 863 857 865 894 902 895 894 886 869 876 856 858 856 840 so there is no reason why i cannot get around 840 to 850 fps on a 20 shot string or even 830 fps would be great...
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pulled the barrel and closed off the transfer port with Sonic-Weld (steel reinforced epoxy putty)with the inside of the port blocked off to keep it flush as to keep it from damaging pellets while loading,Drilled it to .109=7/64's cleaned it off smooth and lubed the orings reinstalled the barrel and started testing the fps with around 1700 psi and this is what i have now .109 BARREL TRANSFER PORT MOD
14.3gr CPHP
813
801
801
837
831
840
843
898
851
851
855
846
852
854
847
848
834
826
824
819
811
JSB HEAVY DIABOLO 18.13GR
721
717
729
736
737
743
759
752
775
771
778
778
790
784
781
774
781
787
775
770
760
744
747
725
722
will continue to tune for a better shot string but it is an improvement from the 100+ fps ES i had before.
(UPDATE) I adjusted the hammer spring in all the way and shot the JSB 18.1gr over my chrony and here is the results 15 shots
765 805 805 811 817 818 810 799 798 798 798 789 776 776 760 better but still not what i want.
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not good enough so i closed the barrel transfer port to 0.09375 will test it and go from there.
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A good polishing of the hammer, sear, bolt, and some light lube will go a long way.
i know this a stupid question and may not be the proper venue but how/where does someone learn to do that?
really, i would love to know where to look to find this info if someone would point me in the proper direction.
if a PM is in order, let me know. it would be great to learn about these triggers
thanks , (as always) 8)
bob
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Mark, it would help if you could measure the pressure at the end of the shot string.... You can usually tell by listening for the "click" when the check valve opens and the gauge slows down on the tank (or pump) you are filling from....
Bob
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The best i can tell it usually ranges around 800 psi after i shoot a string.Here is some shots this morning after reducing the transfer port to .09 using cphp 14.3gr and backing the hammer spring back 1/2 round from flush with the nut,822 829 839 845 844 856 863 865 867 868 850 853 853 852 848 847 833 836 827 821 also pulled the trigger and removed one turn off the L shaped spring,reformed it to fit,smoothed the contacting surfaces and lubed with plumers silicone grease,much smoother and lighter pull.Refilled the gun and shot some 30 yard targets instead of 40 because of the wind blowing shot 5 shot groups.(https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/10294277_766803670010384_7389977891405319008_n.jpg)
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Nice string, 20 shots within 4.4% ES... I tried a 0.104" barrel port and obviously didn't go quite far enough.... well done !!! .... If you're getting to use nearly half the fill pressure in your string you're doing great !!!
Bob
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Thanks Bob,I wish i could get a tighter ES that would be sweet,i knew the gun should get 20 good shots from the fps i was getting on 20 shots just needed to bring that huge curve down.I almost stopped trying but i am glad now i didn't.It should be a sweet Squirrel & Rabbit killer.
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Well as usual I'm late to the party. I ordered a first gen .177 from Mike yesterday and have been reading the threads trying to get up to speed.
Seem like most tuning info is related to the .22cal. Is anyone tuning the .177?
It seems the exhaust port is sized to work well (maybe too big) for .22, is the valve exhaust port on the .177 guns the same size? Can anyone verify?
If so it probably will need to be reduced to get the most consistent ES from a .177...Correct???
Any insights or a point in the right direction would be appreciated.
Any thoughts Bob?
Thanks
David
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No idea on the .177, but my guess would be the receiver and valve are the same, but the barrel port is smaller....
Bob
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Great posts everyone-thanks for ALL the info!!!
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OK Guys finally put a CP 4-16x40 on the 60c pcp and got her set up and done some 50 yard shots and it was shooting weird so i removed the pickle and cleaned the barrel a little as i wondered if the pellets were clipping the pickle so this morning i set up and got started to shoot and shots 1 to 5 were high and to the left a little on 12 power and one mil dot down so i adjusted the scope a little and took 5 more shots so that took care of it now hitting in the center of the 1" target at 50 yards with JSB 15.89gr pellets and is plenty good enough for Rabbits and Nutters!(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10547430_813628711994546_7080644817379837532_n.jpg)
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What ammo are you using?
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That target i used JSB 15.89 gr and so far JSB pellets are the most accurate in my gun.
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OK shot some 70 yard shots with JSB 18.1gr and it took me a while to figure out the scope power setting and mil-dot needed to be on target and the gun done ok took 5 shots i just have a hard time keeping from moving the gun off target.(https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/10463863_816454585045292_498598082364160249_n.jpg)
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I bought the XS60 about six months ago. Here is what I got. I opened the box an seen a pretty good looking gun. As I took it out of the box I smelled fresh paint. The air tube had been painted and had fingerprints in it from handling while the paint was wet. Hmm. I took it out to the backyard and was surprised how well it shot after a few sight adjustments. I shot at 15yrds. and it grouped well. Happy,happy. I was going to give it to my son for some tree rat hunting. Well in short order it leaked every ounce of air out of it. Eventually I could hear it leaking. A few turns on the fill port I couldn't hear it anymore however it leaks down quickly. The valve seems to not be working properly. When I first fill it the shots are not powerful and get stronger after shooting it about 10 times or more. You can hear the difference. Overall I'm not happy. I'm not a rich guy and a hundred bucks is a hundred bucks. I'm glad to see this info on here and will try to fix this gun myself. I love to tinker. Its nice to know that you fellas seem to like this gun and if I can fix it I'll like it also. I guess I am disappointed with the company that sold this gun in this condition. I understand he was probably rushed to get them shipped but not even letting the paint dry, let alone its painted kinda cheapens it.
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All unregulated PCPs work that way.
If you have too high a fill pressure for your hammer setting you will see velocity go up from fill to peak then down again.
Also, louder does not mean more powerful. A short high pressure burst will be quieter but push the pellet faster than a longer lower pressure burst of air.
For $100 I am happy with the painted airtube. I am sure you can find someone to refinish it in another way.
If you still have a leak, contact Mike he will send you the seals you need.
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Once again.. this gun was advertised and sold as a "tinkerer's gun". This is plainly posted on the site "as is". If you are not prepared, or willing, to tinker... "DO NOT BUY THIS GUN". Some of us were fortunate enough to get our hands on some that needed nothing right out of the box. Some of us got what we paid for instead. The airtube is not from the factory, they are after market and part of the conversion from C02 to HPA bulk. If you haven't talk to Mike about your gun yet, Please do so. I predict that, in the end, you will love this gun. I also predict that, if you talk to Mike and let him work with you, you will be a repeat customer. As of now there are no more of these guns to be had and a line of people wanting them. If you can't/don't get satisfaction, post it in the classifieds here on the GTA and you WILL get your money back by the end of the week if not by the end of the day.
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All I can say is for $100, I don't know what you expected.... The next step up in PCPs is a Disco at nearly 3 times the price.... The FD-PCP is a great tinkerer's gun, and you actually get more than you paid for.... providing you can get it to stop leaking....
Bob
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If it is a .22 I am sure you will make money on the deal if you decide to sell it. The supply of those disappeared long before the demand.
@Avator, Fortunate enough to not have to do anything? That sounds boring. I would not have learned half as much as I know now if mine had worked out of the box. I think those of us who had to do a little work are the fortunate ones.
I will say the aluminum barrel band and the painted air tube do not get along. One of these days I need to polish that band and get the tube powder coated. For $100 though, I feel like I robbed Mike.
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Steven,
I agree on all accounts. We had a thread somewhere about how boring the FD-PCP was. Of course we were bragging, not complaining. Mike is great about hooking you up with extras if he has them. I bought extra .22 and .177 barrels (all 3 of ours are barrel swappers), extra muzzle breaks (the set screw threads strip and I also left the one on Black Mamba full size, I notched it for the fill cap), an extra stock (to mod for and external power adjuster), extra barrel bands (I stripped out the aluminum threads) and he sent several small items for various reasons. I even had a bad .177 barrel and unsuccessfully tried to recrown it myself, I sent it back to him along with a check for a new one. He was out of stock so he recrowned and choked mine, sent it back to me along with my check. We did some minor mods to ours, I didn't say we didn't. I said we didn't need to ... lol
Like I said, we own 3 and I bet if I was offered another one, I would buy it.