GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: joel w on October 18, 2013, 10:39:49 PM
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So I got an email from Jim tonight and he has a proposition for me since my order somehow got misplaced or something. He is offering me a partial refund and promises to ship one of his own new barrel designs??
Here is a quote "I have developed a new hammer forged barrel in my own land/groove dimension and twist rate. They are very, very accurate."
I of course told him "Yes please and thank you." ;) I asked for some specs on the barrel but I was just wondering if anyone else has tried one or heard of them?? I have NEVER read or heard a bad thing about Jim or his work so I can not wait for it to show up...:)
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Id trust jim, if he says it is accurate id put money on it being accurate.
btw guys i did send him my bnm breech and he can make a lothar barrel for the disco with bnm breech.. welcome
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Thanks Mike, I just hope it is a bit thicker than the stock Mrod barrel and I can find a good pellet for it. I don't mind being a tester as long as it's a successful test. lol
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So I got an email from Jim tonight and he has a proposition for me since my order somehow got misplaced or something. He is offering me a partial refund and promises to ship one of his own new barrel designs??
Here is a quote "I have developed a new hammer forged barrel in my own land/groove dimension and twist rate. They are very, very accurate."
I of course told him "Yes please and thank you." ;) I asked for some specs on the barrel but I was just wondering if anyone else has tried one or heard of them?? I have NEVER read or heard a bad thing about Jim or his work so I can not wait for it to show up...:)
Wow, how lucky for you. I've been waiting for my barrel for almost 3 months now. It's always this that and the other thing. I just wish I would get any barrel as long as it fits my rifle. Right now I am very disappointed with Jim, last time I purchased something from him it came right away and the quality was great but Im starting to have regrets now. And yes, I have been nothing but polite. I figure 2 more weeks and I am asking for my money back.
pat
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I talked to him at the Hickory NC airgun show. He had the new Prod barrel on display. It was a very nice looking barrel, for what that's worth (performance is what counts! :P). Very very smooth inside and well machined. They have no choke, but I agree with him when he said it doesn't need one if the barrel is the right size all the way through. A choke-less barrel also has the potential to squeeze a few more fps out since there is no restriction. Keep us posted on your results, I expect it to do very well. If not, I'm sure Jim will make it right.
As a side note, Jim is a super cool dude. Very nice guy to talk to and super helpful. Be sure and speak to him if you ever get the chance.
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I ordered August* 7th and I know he said he is way behind then and has gotten buried since. You might want to email him again, he said he has a few ready to go out Monday that have a .500" breech. Mine is an oddball because it's going to fit the .25 cal breech but use .22 cal barrel and bolt probe.
Limbshaker, Thanks, I don't really have any doubt he would make it right if needed and I will be posting some updates..
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So I got an email from Jim tonight and he has a proposition for me since my order somehow got misplaced or something. He is offering me a partial refund and promises to ship one of his own new barrel designs??
Here is a quote "I have developed a new hammer forged barrel in my own land/groove dimension and twist rate. They are very, very accurate."
I of course told him "Yes please and thank you." ;) I asked for some specs on the barrel but I was just wondering if anyone else has tried one or heard of them?? I have NEVER read or heard a bad thing about Jim or his work so I can not wait for it to show up...:)
Can't help but wonder the source. And of course the specs...lol I suspect he's had an AG bore mandrel made by TJ's. Not a bad solution IMO. Now IFF he's found another hammer forger barrel source, I would sure like to know about it.
cheers,
Douglas
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BSA?
http://www.airgunspares.com/store/department/72/BARRELS-%26-BLANKS/ (http://www.airgunspares.com/store/department/72/BARRELS-%26-BLANKS/)
While CZ doesn't have a reatil source for their barrels, am pretty sure they are a source for some makers.
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BSA barrels are tapered for their hole length, although they feel like choked when you push a pellet through.
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If he's figured a way to economically make hammer forge barrels on a small scale for individual shop use, he's going to be a rich man.
So lets assume they are being bought, and we'll play detective.
Wherever they are coming from, are comparaible in cost to LW.
Wherever they are coming from, there isn't an advantage to mentioning the name.
Are a lot of makers that hammer forge barrels, but not so many that are suitable for airgun use.
Can also assume that his quality standards are high, so whatever barrels they are, they meet his standards.
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In my limited experience with 2 TJ barrels they are amazingly accurate with a good crown and minor lapping.
I plan on using Mike's barrels from now on for any custom builds I do.
I was afraid the 1:14 twist in .250" caliber would be too fast for pellets but I've gotten one hole groups out to 50 yards with 25.4 grain Kings driven anywhere from 660 fps out of my 2540 Carbine to 1020 fps out of my Challenger.
You would be a lucky man to get a custom twist barrel from TJ's.
:)
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Looking at his website now, I no longer see mention of the LW .590" barrel for the mrods so if there was a problem with the LW blanks, then I am happy he did not pass the "problem" on to his customers... Searching some of the equipment it takes to actually make a hammer forged barrel, I am guessing also that he found another source besides LW.
Either way, I am sure I will be happy and I hope the rest of you waiting on yours will be happy also once he gets caught up.
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Wherever they are coming from, there isn't an advantage to mentioning the name.
IFF they're TJ, Jim has control of the mandrel; nobody is going to hurt his investment by knowing they where they come from. I am really glad to see an alternative to the IFFY stuff coming out of LW. I may just have to get one for myself...:)
I have a TJ barrel getting fitted to a .224 Marauder build. I can't wait to try it. Probe-less bolt like Bob showed for his Disco 30 cal...:) but done with a 25 cal breech as a starting point( quite elegant if I do say so myself ).
TJ's is top shelf stuff. Quarter mile stuff judging by results a few have achieved with guns built around them.
cheers,
Douglas
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PakProtector - when you say ".224" Marauder build, does that mean one designed for cast/swaged .224" PB projectiles?
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Jim just posted they are TJ barrels for 22 cal only for now
Wherever they are coming from, there isn't an advantage to mentioning the name.
IFF they're TJ, Jim has control of the mandrel; nobody is going to hurt his investment by knowing they where they come from. I am really glad to see an alternative to the IFFY stuff coming out of LW. I may just have to get one for myself... :)
I have a TJ barrel getting fitted to a .224 Marauder build. I can't wait to try it. Probe-less bolt like Bob showed for his Disco 30 cal... :) but done with a 25 cal breech as a starting point( quite elegant if I do say so myself ).
TJ's is top shelf stuff. Quarter mile stuff judging by results a few have achieved with guns built around them.
cheers,
Douglas
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Thanks John, Jim said the land/groove is a trade secret so he would not tell me but the twist rate he said is 1:19.
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PakProtector - when you say ".224" Marauder build, does that mean one designed for cast/swaged .224" PB projectiles?
Yes, cast in this case. I have boolit molds up to the limit of a 14" twist can stabilize.
cheers,
Douglas
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Any groups to show from the Marmot forged barrel yet?
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Not yet, sorry, With the new baby and a new job (massive overtime) I have not found the time to put it together yet to test. I will try to get it together this next weekend though and do some shooting. The barrel he ended up sending me was machined for a .22 breech instead of the .25 so I had to buy a new breech but I have no doubts it will all work well together..
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Not yet, sorry, With the new baby and a new job (massive overtime) I have not found the time to put it together yet to test. I will try to get it together this next weekend though and do some shooting. The barrel he ended up sending me was machined for a .22 breech instead of the .25 so I had to buy a new breech but I have no doubts it will all work well together..
An update to this thread will be much appreciated. Any results that can be shown? Are the PRod hammer forged barrels available?
TIA
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I have a barrel coming soon for my M-Rod, full barrel size in front the breech screws and it will be a glue in. He is doing P-Rod barrels. He ended up with choked barrels. There are some out there and shooting very well.
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I finally got around to installing Jim"s forged .22 Barrel. So sorry for the long delay but better late than never. The barrel fit perfectly. no complaints on the machine work. I have only put about 20 pellets so far through the barrel and it is very very accurate at the moment. Time will tell if the POI changes or not but I kind of doubt it ever will. So far so good.
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is anyone aware of examples of barrels having rifling twist rates that increase as they approach the muzzle?
Intuitively, this seems like a good thing, no?
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I have one of Jim's hammer forged barrels in my .22 synrod. It is very accurate, but also very pellet picky. I can only get jsb's to shoot worth anything, and the bore is so tight, I have to use a .177 cleaning rod - the .22 cleaning rod won't fit in either end of it. But it is very accurate - probably more accurate than my skill permits.
I think it may like the jsb's for softness. I also have to clean it every 100 shots or so, and it gets massive lead buildup - I assume from being so tight.
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I understand the MM barrel was purpose made for the soft JSBs, and is VERY tight.... and that is why it doesn't like most other pellets.... Mike at TJ's has another .22 cal airgun barrel that Sean & I designed that is 0.217" groove diameter and 16" twist, which should handle most pellets really well.... Mike asked us to design it because the MM barrel was smaller and therefore specialized.... I have one here, but no time to mount it yet and try it.... It is available directly from TJ's as a blank, or from Sean Pero if you need it machined and finished.... I believe you can get it in 7/16" or 1/2" ODs, priced by the inch like all his other barrels....
Bob
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I have one of Jim's hammer forged barrels in my .22 synrod. It is very accurate, but also very pellet picky. I can only get jsb's to shoot worth anything, and the bore is so tight, I have to use a .177 cleaning rod - the .22 cleaning rod won't fit in either end of it. But it is very accurate - probably more accurate than my skill permits.
I think it may like the jsb's for softness. I also have to clean it every 100 shots or so, and it gets massive lead buildup - I assume from being so tight.
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I am thinking of getting one of Jims hammer forged barrels do you recommend one or should go a different rout.
How long did it take to get one.
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Here is a copy/paste of a post Jim made at the Marauder Forum concerning his barrels. If you go there, it's in the .22 caliber forum.
Hey Guys,
Thought I chime in here to see if I can clear a few things up and give my $0.02.
I am not going to say that any type of barrel rifling is vastly superior to another. Each company will tell you their way is the best. This is the obvious response. Could you imagine if Woody would have replied "We use cut rifling, but button rifling is better". Our response would be..."Well, then why don't you button?" So they make barrels the way they feel most proficient at, and can do the best job. No problem with that kind of thinking here.
I can tell you unequivocally that the alignment of the bore to the center of the barrel is better on the HF barrels than on the drilled barrels. It is not even close.
Hammer forged barrels are smoother inside. There is nary a cut-rifled barrel that doesn't require lapping to get it smooth. (ask a firearm benchrest gunsmith if they send cut rifled barrels out without lapping...the answer is no) I have tried and found no benefit to lapping the HF barrels.
Regarding the MOA claim, I demand these barrels shoot 1moa groups out to 60yds. That means the pellets make a group less than 0.629". I set them up in my test gun and shoot each one. The test gun is regulated, rock solid, and has a good scope. I use a benchrest-style cast-iron front rest and a rabbit ear sandbag in the back. I like to think I can shoot pretty well. The gun is set up to shoot 830fps and will repeat +/- 2fps over the string. I shoot indoors at my friend's shop on weekends. That is how I test them. My barrels are shot in the perfect world, not everyone has this solid of a setup, indoors, regulated, tuned my way, etc. Everyone's gun is tuned differently. More on this below.
I have learned a lot about these barrels and barrels in general. I'm going to make a claim that I have developed over the last several years of machining barrels....All barrels move when shot and accuracy will suffer to the extent that they move. I do not believe the movement is in the middle or the end of the barrel, it is not flexing, but rather "wagging" from the termination of the breech out. Call it whip, harmonics, whatever; I prefer "wag" The movement of a barrel affects the accuracy. Period. Thicker barrels are stiffer, sure, but still wag from the breech. More mass means more force is needed to wag.
The good barrels (LW, BSA, CZ, FX ST, Benchmark, MMMW HF, etc) are properly sized and designed for maximum accuracy. They will all shoot better if they are held solid. An improperly machined barrel (Crosman) will benefit from being held solid, although a crappy barrel will never shoot as well as a good one, at least not consistently.
There is a long list of items that cause barrel movement. From the release of the sear until the last positive pressure leaves the back of the pellet, it is influenced by the rifle. Minimizing the wag at the end of the barrel must be our goal. A hammer that drags, bounces, vibrates; a valve that is hits and opens/closes; airflow trying to separate the breech from the tube; the air pushing a pellet down the barrel, and finally the air escaping from the end. Let's not forget we have reservoir that is vibrating from the air pressure, and a shooter trying to hold it steady. Movement of the rifle in the rest and shooter technique are a whole nother aspect...not really relevant here.
Next, lets talk about that comparatively massive amount of weight out past the barrel...baffles, springs, shroud and endcap. You've just effectively put a pendulum effect on the barrel. This weight will help dampen the vibration, but add to the wag.
Keeping the gun as solid as possible and to shoot with the least amount of collective motion is the key. Like my AA EV2, it is just DEAD when you shoot it. No movement, no vibration, nothing, just "pop". Unfortunately the M-rod has a lot more going on that causes movement during the shot. To say they are "dead" is blasphemy. With my setup, I have tuned to be as dead as possible. No hammer bounce, no wasted air, solid as a rock. It is as dead as I can get it. Regarding the "perfect world" scenario I use to test my barrels, I say I have to be "perfect", I'm selling a barrel that is proven to perform. I cannot guarantee the rifle it is installed on is capable of reproducing the groups. If I were guaranteeing and selling a complete rifle, the barrel would be installed and be sold as a system. Am I making excuses for inaccurate barrels? Absolutely not. I don't send them out if they don't shoot. But some understanding has to be made to acknowledge exactly what goes into a gun that shoots MOA.
So where does this lead us? Great groups come from a well tuned, solid, dead, rifle made with quality components. Whatever barrel you choose, please, get it as rigid as possible. Thin diameter, free-floated barrels on a medium power gun with the firing sequence of a M-rod is a recipe for spiraling pellets and inconsistent groups.
Regards,
Marmot_Militia
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I have one of Jim's hammer forged barrels in my .22 synrod. It is very accurate, but also very pellet picky. I can only get jsb's to shoot worth anything, and the bore is so tight, I have to use a .177 cleaning rod - the .22 cleaning rod won't fit in either end of it. But it is very accurate - probably more accurate than my skill permits.
I think it may like the jsb's for softness. I also have to clean it every 100 shots or so, and it gets massive lead buildup - I assume from being so tight.
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I am thinking of getting one of Jims hammer forged barrels do you recommend one or should go a different rout.
How long did it take to get one.
He sent it a the next day after putting the order in - which was afternoon. 2-3 days usps and it was ALL MINE! I would definitely recommend one, and I am sure that if you are unhappy, Jim will make it right with you. At the time, I got the only rifle barrel he had, but I believe he has a refreshed his inventory since then. For me, it was absolutely worth it.
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Any groups to show from the Marmot forged barrel yet?
Here's some groups I shot just after installing the HF barrel. Marauder with lawyer spring removed, regulated and shooting off of two sand bags. Outdoors and to the best of my feeble memory a calm day. I've been having trouble lately getting it group as good as it did then but hoping it's just the pellets. Shot it today and then followed it with my AA S500 and it wasn't shooting all that great either. I cleaned both barrels, switched to a different tin of pellets and later shot some of my wife's cherry tomatoes at 60yrds. I didn't try the Mrod though.
jimmy
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I understand the MM barrel was purpose made for the soft JSBs, and is VERY tight.... and that is why it doesn't like most other pellets.... Mike at TJ's has another .22 cal airgun barrel that Sean & I designed that is 0.217" groove diameter and 16" twist, which should handle most pellets really well.... Mike asked us to design it because the MM barrel was smaller and therefore specialized.... I have one here, but no time to mount it yet and try it.... It is available directly from TJ's as a blank, or from Sean Pero if you need it machined and finished.... I believe you can get it in 7/16" or 1/2" ODs, priced by the inch like all his other barrels....
Bob
Does Sean have a web site?
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getting my HF barrel from MM in a few days...super excited to try it out!...reserving a tin of jsb's 15.9g and hope all turns out well.