GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Marc on August 09, 2013, 11:09:51 AM
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Out of the same gun (ex. RWS 34, HW50S, etc.) which caliber would you prefer for hunting?
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It's a toss-up
177 flatter trajectory, pleney for birds and small animals
22 slightly more mass for slightly larger animals like racoons and possums
For a pure hunting rifle I'd lean towards 22
For a plinker that I might hunt with from time to time I'd lean towards 177
I have both and have been going back and forth on which one I will take on my first hunting trip. At this time the 177 is in the lead. The 22cal I have needs (in my opinion) more FPS to flatten out the trajectory a little more for it to be the one.
My 177 has more FPE than the 22 at the muzzle, though the 177 loses the energy faster than the 22 and after X yards the 22 has more fpe left according to the program chairgun.
There are several threads on 177 vs 22 .. might want to do a quick search to see what was said in those.
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hunting it would be 22 as a 177 is more of a target round from my experience . 177 works fine on birds but way too weak for bunnies and tree rats . a 22 will give clean humane kills on game shot at a reasonable range 25-35 yards . I don't advise a 177 for that reason.
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.22
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in the two guns you have listed I would choose .177 simply because at those power levels the penetration of a 22 is simply pitiful. my general rule of caliber selection for given power level: 0-18 fpe=.177 19-30 for .22. anything under 18 fpe in .22 the trajectory really not worthy IMHO. and what I am saying about penetration is a 22 pellet needs roughly twice the fpe to penetrate as deep as the .177. this is due to the increase in surface area. and im speaking from experience and not talking out of my ^&* ive tried the 15ish fpe .22 cal thing, it was disappointing to say the least. bump the fpe to 20 its a whole different ball game lol so if I were you I would stick to .177.
Josh
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Out west here where most of the AG type hunting is more open .... it comes down more to reaching out generally into modest to LONG ranges.
If quarry is small ( Birds, Rats, smaller Squirrels, Bunnies ) prefer the .177 PCP inside of 50 yards for the Flatter shooting deeper penetration.
Big Squirrels, Jacks, Coons and such sizes in heavy cover or at distance 35-80 yards the .22PCP hands down the better hunter IMO.
Will say tho shooting a 30#+ power .22 PCP in close quarters is really overkill and a tad less safe simply due to smaller critters in close pellets SHOOT RIGHT THREW THEM !!
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.22
DITTO
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I prefer .22 cause you simply don't know what you might run across. :D
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While my hunting experience has been limited to only a dozen ground squirrels and 3 rabbits in the garden, I can say that a .22-cal pellet at 700 fps puts them down with authority. I made a 40-yd headshot on a rabbit this summer, and it was a through-and-through of the skull. I also made a chest shot at 30 yd a week later, and the rabbit ran less than 10 ft and fell over dead.
Since none of my shots have gone beyond 40 yards, I've never had a problem with trajectory; 700 fps gives a flat enough trajectory that I can zero at 15 yards, be less than 1" high at 30 yd, back on at 40 yd, and an inch low at 50 yards. I guess if you want to stretch things out to 60-70 yd, the .177 will have a flatter trajectory, but then you have to contend with more effect from the wind.
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in the two guns you have listed I would choose .177 simply because at those power levels the penetration of a 22 is simply pitiful. my general rule of caliber selection for given power level: 0-18 fpe=.177 19-30 for .22. anything under 18 fpe in .22 the trajectory really not worthy IMHO. and what I am saying about penetration is a 22 pellet needs roughly twice the fpe to penetrate as deep as the .177. this is due to the increase in surface area. and im speaking from experience and not talking out of my ^&* ive tried the 15ish fpe .22 cal thing, it was disappointing to say the least. bump the fpe to 20 its a whole different ball game lol so if I were you I would stick to .177.
Josh
Interesting topic. General consensus is .22, though in support of wilsonj's point, I did come across a point someone else had made.
Being a 15 ft/lb rifle (the 34), it would seem to make sense to go with .177 given it's power. This has to do with matching pellet weight to power of the rifle because he argued that sporting air rifles performed best (combination of accuracy and trajectory) when you keep the muzzle velocity between 850 fps and 950 fps. Too slow and the trajectory suffers, too fast and the accuracy does.
Therefore, for air rifles under 20ft-lbs, he suggested a .177 and rifles over 20ft-lbs, a .22.
Not my words, but figured was applicable enough for the topic. ;D
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Either or. Consider that a lot of game fell to premagnum springers in .177. And UK shooters seem to do well with 12 foot pound guns. You just need to learn the limitations of the gun you are shooting. A good shot with a .177 is better than a poorly placed 22 or any pellet that steps out fast but ends up spent. The 34 in 22 is no slouch. Just have to keep the range practical.
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It is an interesting topic. I have hunted with both, and both will do the job. I lean towards the .22 for two reasons: more mass on target for shock and knock-down, and a larger wound (entrance, channel, and exit). Shot placement is a little more critical with the .177. You can argue either way, with valid points made for both. Intended hunting range, where trajectory is a factor, must also be considered. I do all of my hunting pretty much within 35 yards, so trajectory doesn't play much of a role with my .22. 8)
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in the two guns you have listed I would choose .177 simply because at those power levels the penetration of a 22 is simply pitiful. my general rule of caliber selection for given power level: 0-18 fpe=.177 19-30 for .22. anything under 18 fpe in .22 the trajectory really not worthy IMHO. and what I am saying about penetration is a 22 pellet needs roughly twice the fpe to penetrate as deep as the .177. this is due to the increase in surface area. and im speaking from experience and not talking out of my ^&* ive tried the 15ish fpe .22 cal thing, it was disappointing to say the least. bump the fpe to 20 its a whole different ball game lol so if I were you I would stick to .177.
Josh
Interesting topic. General consensus is .22, though in support of wilsonj's point, I did come across a point someone else had made.
Being a 15 ft/lb rifle (the 34), it would seem to make sense to go with .177 given it's power. This has to do with matching pellet weight to power of the rifle because he argued that sporting air rifles performed best (combination of accuracy and trajectory) when you keep the muzzle velocity between 850 fps and 950 fps. Too slow and the trajectory suffers, too fast and the accuracy does.
Therefore, for air rifles under 20ft-lbs, he suggested a .177 and rifles over 20ft-lbs, a .22.
Not my words, but figured was applicable enough for the topic. ;D
Well .... in .177 cal getting at 20# power requires 10.5 grain pellets to be flung @ 925 fps, 13.4's @ 820 fps and 16's @ 750 fps
This is no easy task being the small bore on a .177 is LESS EFFICIENT than the larger calibers and getting a rifle to push that hard on such a small pill takes some major power. If a spring / ram gun some serious JOLT is going to happen. If a PCP got a real air hog !
If your just an average too poor shot in general :P a .22 cal has a better chance of anchoring game with off the mark shot than a .177.
If on the other hand your a very good to great shot and enjoy hitting where you aim ... a faster and flatter shooting .177 can kill just as effectively on smaller game.
This subject and it's debates have gone on year after year and will continue the same.
So absolutely if wanting above 20# power you really have little choice but step up into a larger caliber ;)
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My Crosman Optimus lobs 18.1 gr. JSB's @ around 620 FPS. Out to about 30, 35 yards trajectory is no problem and it absolutely busts the snot out of squirrels at these ranges. I've shot squirrels with .177 and it will kill them but the .22 seems to consistently give one shot kills. .22 is my choice but .177 can be good to--as said, know your and your gun's limitations.
Scotty
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the big bullet..22 !
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not all shooters are the best shot [no pun intended] and I say use a 22 . I belive in humane shots to kill. sure some of us can get great 1 shot kills in 177 but for hunting purposes its 22 .
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I would personally prefer .22 since they leave a larger wound channel hence kill more quickly in well placed shots and otherwise, plus they hold their trajectory better with sufficient power behind them due to their increased mass where your groups at longer ranges will be smaller in windy conditions. I have seen .22 pass through shots before in mid sized nutters at 15fpe out to 30yds when shot in the rig cage right behind the arms without using pointed pellets but domes slightly lubed with oil so 15fpe is enough for pass through shots unless shooting very large nutters.
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.177 for feathers & .22 for fur is what Niko told me. He wouldn't lie to me, right?
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maybe im the only one that headshots "creatures" at 50+ yds? hence why I wont bother with .22 unless its flying at over 20 fpe? maybe Im shooting to far? or maybe you guys don't shoot far enough? and 15 fpe 22 pass through the chest area on a squirrel? what range point blank? most of my 25fpe don't pass through on body shots? ive had 17fpe .177 not pass through? granted most .177 do. my squirrel must be tougher than most, hence why I go for headshots mostly.............never lose the prey ;D they cant think to run lol. oh well ive ranted enough. to OP make your own decision, we are all going to have diff opinions, experiences, preferences. heck buy one in each caliber and decide for yourself.
Josh
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Range was stated in the post Josh. Likely depends on pellet shape in addition to critter size. Guess it doesn't hurt to lube the pellets either.
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My preference would be .22.
More energy left on target instead of passing thru to who knows where.
Penetration? Seriously? Not an issue unless the game in question is armored up (I made a funny). But then 3 of my rifles are super magnums & the other one is a magnum.
But then again, folks with rifles restricted to 12 FPE seem to do just fine on up to rabbit size game. There's a YT video done by an Englishman that actually shows penetration testing on skinned rabbit heads with various pellets. And H&N's pellet table lists two pellets across 3 calibers - .177, .22 & .25 - that are rated to take out small predators ("... fox, racoon[sic], armadillo, marten ...") at only 18.5 FPE. I've also read a post with pics that showed a brace of rabbits a New Zealander took with a sub 7 FPE .177 rifle.
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My preference would be .22.
More energy left on target instead of passing thru to who knows where.
Penetration? Seriously? Not an issue unless the game in question is armored up (I made a funny). But then 3 of my rifles are super magnums & the other one is a magnum.
But then again, folks with rifles restricted to 12 FPE seem to do just fine on up to rabbit size game. There's a YT video done by an Englishman that actually shows penetration testing on skinned rabbit heads with various pellets. And H&N's pellet table lists two pellets across 3 calibers - .177, .22 & .25 - that are rated to take out small predators ("... fox, racoon[sic], armadillo, marten ...") at only 18.5 FPE. I've also read a post with pics that showed a brace of rabbits a New Zealander took with a sub 7 FPE .177 rifle.
Rabbits are VERY THIN SKIN and really fragile critters, kickin em with a boot can kill em. Not a very good weighting stick for estimating power of an AG IMO
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I believe it depends on the power of the air rifle in use.
The Evanix Blizzard I use for varmints is a .22. Would not try the same distances or animals with the model 34 in .22 as it doesn't have the oomph in that caliber. Would do so with a 350 magnum.
Beaver, raccoons and coyotes with the Blizzard are all viable with the coyotes closer in. Head shots of raccoons and beaver to about 70 yards. If I were limited to the model 34 in .177 the limit for me would be around 30 yards.
My goal is quick, clean kills and most of the shooting is pest animal elimination.
Last evening..., two raccoons and one coyote all on the same prairie pothole. Beavers because they are decimating a newly growing tree stand on a neighbors farm and the coyote because he happened by while I was waiting for the beavers to show themselves. Head shots on all of them. In the meantime I was nailing blackbirds at 40-60 yards on the other side of the water as they would come and land on the cattails. All with the .22 which is overkill for the blackbirds, but you shoot what you have.
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.22
DITTO
100% agreement ;D ;D
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But then again, folks with rifles restricted to 12 FPE seem to do just fine on up to rabbit size game. There's a YT video done by an Englishman that actually shows penetration testing on skinned rabbit heads with various pellets. And H&N's pellet table lists two pellets across 3 calibers - .177, .22 & .25 - that are rated to take out small predators ("... fox, racoon[sic], armadillo, marten ...") at only 18.5 FPE. I've also read a post with pics that showed a brace of rabbits a New Zealander took with a sub 7 FPE .177 rifle.
Don't have a clue about 22 (little rhyming) I'm gonna assume they are good at what they do, but I do know .177 will definitely drop small varmints.
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Either is fine for small game. Knowing the fpe at different ranges is most important to understanding the maximum range to shoot. You accuracy determines your limit, of course.
In those guns you posted, you won't find an appreciable difference in fpe between the 2 calibers, since they use the same powerplant, no matter the caliber. The .22 punches a bigger hole, but the .177 will travel deeper, doing more internal damage to more areas. In the 12-14fpe guns, the .177 is capable and accurate.
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Out of the same gun (ex. RWS 34, HW50S, etc.) which caliber would you prefer for hunting?
IMHO, .177 cal is the best for ME with my R9 power level springers. The .20/.22 does "hit harder than the .177", however it didn't seem that caliber mattered much if the vitals weren't perforated! LOL, single lung a squirrel with either .177, .20 or .22 and you're in for a long chase! Concerning "hits harder"......after seeing more than one tree squirrel run quite a few feet after being double lunged with a 100fpe+ .22 rimfire bullet, I really don't put much value in the "hard hitting" 30fpe PCP! I've found that as long as the vitals are perforated it doesn't make much difference if the hole is .177, .20, or .22 cal, and IF the max shootin' distance is kept to about 35 yards to minimize range estimation errors.
I did tune my .20 R9 to shoot Beeman FTSs at 825fps (using a stiff tune and a home turned oring sealed piston cap) and at that power level the trajectory was acceptably flat, however the gun was a pretty harsh shooter at that power level and a bit too hold sensitive for ME. Yep, my "mild mannered" .177 tune would shoot flatter than my high stress .20 tune and a tree squirrel double lunged with either one didn't know the difference.
Years ago there was a poster stating that shooting a squirrel with a .20 Crow Magnum hollow point pellet at 14fpe plus would increase the killzone size 50%. As a test I tuned my .20 R9 very stiffly (using an oring sealed piston cap) to shoot the 12.5 grain .20 CM pellet at almost 18fpe (800fps) and actually HUNTED tree squirrels with it for a whole week. The result......a piddly 50% hit to retrieve ratio with the 18fpe CM setup compared to 90%+ ratio (wish I was better in the woods) when I was using .177 CPLs at 14.5 fpe! I feel that the main problem was that the .20 CM pellet didn't group very well past 25 yards from my R9 so most hits were "off the mark". LOL...I can reliably take a head shot on a squirrel at 40 yards with a 13fpe .177 CPL so there was no point of using those .20 cal "wobbly ducks". I do realize that there are accurate .20 and .22 cal domes, however I was using the CMs to test the "50% kz expansion theory".
ALMOST all of the .20 CM pellet shots were 30+ yards to test the "50% larger effective killzone THEORY", and I can verify that a .20 "trick pellet" at 14fpe (or even 18fpe) WON'T increase the killzone enough to compensate for the inaccuracy! LOL.....I remember rib shooting a 40 yard squirrel on a tree limb with the .20 CM pellet and with the THWOCK of the pellet literally knocked the squirrel from the limb to the ground. When I got to the place where the squirrel fell I couldn't find it, but then I noticed a hole in the base of the tree that I ASSUME the wounded squirrel went into.
In another instance..........When hunting squirrels with my brother I was using a .177 R10 and my brother was using his .22 rimfire and high velocity short hollowpoint bullets (over 60 fpe). We were stalking down a path in the WV woods when a squirrel popped up it's head in the path just 20 yards away. My brother took the shot and the squirrel jumped straight up in the air a couple feet and made a mad dash to a tree 20 yards away. Thinking my brother missed a 20 yard offhand shot I joked "HarDeHarHar....next time chuck a rock". Well, the squirrel did stop at the base of the tree and was dead with a PERFECT double lung hit and an exit hole big enough to poke a finger through. When we were dressing the squirrels taken that day we found that the "scampering squirrel" was indeed perfectly double lunged and the .22 hollow point bullet literally removed the top half of the heart before exiting!
Some one shot .177 R9 kill pics..........
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/wved/Airgun%20Hunting/groundhog.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wved/media/Airgun%20Hunting/groundhog.jpg.html)
Head shot, broke spine at base of skull.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/wved/Airgun%20Hunting/Racoon_R9_1.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wved/media/Airgun%20Hunting/Racoon_R9_1.jpg.html)
Head shot, back of head as 'coon was up a tree after wrecking a bird feeder.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/wved/Airgun%20Hunting/TwoSquirrels.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wved/media/Airgun%20Hunting/TwoSquirrels.jpg.html)
One head shot and one double lunged.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/wved/Airgun%20Hunting/FriedSquirrels.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wved/media/Airgun%20Hunting/FriedSquirrels.jpg.html)
What became of the squirrels.
Anywhoo......after that little week long squirrel hunt I sold both the .20 barrel and a chopped & choked .22 barrel that was on my R9s and reverted back to the .177 "skinny pellet" that I used years before. Personally, at springer power levels I don't put much stock in the "shock value" of a pellet preferring a pellet THROUGH the vitals, and preferably FULL PENETRATION so I get two holes with one shot!
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X2 on the "shock value"...
I think it's a poorly/uninformed used term, with subsonic projectiles. It's blunt force, and the difference in diameters in a millisecond doesn't make much difference... 8fpe is 8fpe is 8fpe.
Accurate Flight, Penetration and Internal damage to more areas is a trump IMO.
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I have been using .177 personally for squirrels of all sizes. Yes, shot placement is important, and when I've been off, I have to do a followup shot.
I use .177 for many reasons - cost of ammo, limited range, ammo availability and diversity. It also forces me to become a better shot. It is quite rewarding doing a clean kill with .177, at least for me.
I can only shoot in limited ranges in the backyard, out to only around 35 yards, and I have been able to do clean kills at that range with my .177 Disco. I also set up an indoor 30ft range in the basement, and will shoot hundreds of rounds in a session. The cost of .177 makes that easier to do.
I do plan on getting a Marauder in the future, also .177 for the same reasons as stated above, as well as shot count if I tune the Marauder well.
If I ever need to shoot anything larger than a squirrel though, then I will consider the larger calibers, but squirrels are my limit right now, so I am very happy with .177.
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My preference would be .22.
More energy left on target instead of passing thru to who knows where.
Penetration? Seriously? Not an issue unless the game in question is armored up (I made a funny). But then 3 of my rifles are super magnums & the other one is a magnum.
But then again, folks with rifles restricted to 12 FPE seem to do just fine on up to rabbit size game. There's a YT video done by an Englishman that actually shows penetration testing on skinned rabbit heads with various pellets. And H&N's pellet table lists two pellets across 3 calibers - .177, .22 & .25 - that are rated to take out small predators ("... fox, racoon[sic], armadillo, marten ...") at only 18.5 FPE. I've also read a post with pics that showed a brace of rabbits a New Zealander took with a sub 7 FPE .177 rifle.
Rabbits are VERY THIN SKIN and really fragile critters, kickin em with a boot can kill em. Not a very good weighting stick for estimating power of an AG IMO
Yeah, after I posted it I looked up the recommended FPE range for rabbits & it was 4-6 FPE so 7 FPE was more than adequate.
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You need to look at the velocity and/or the power level of the rifle (and before you buy it too). I personally think that for air rifles rated up to 1000fps, give or take, .177 is a good choice, not necessarily better but a "good" choice. First, you have to "not" exceed that 1120fps barrier, otherwise known as the sound barrier, but for more reasons than just that tiny pellet having to transcend that barrier. You also have to consider a physical limitation on the internals of the rifle.. At 1250fps and beyond , a .177 calibre just puts too much mechanical stress on all but the sturdiest built airguns during the firing cycle, especially on the spring and piston. On average you have to be very careful on your pellet choice and have to be a muscle bound monster to cock them all day. I have a couple of these powerful .177's and it doesn't take a professor to notice that that calibre appears to reach its all-round limits well before this power level. Using heavier pellets to try to compensate is not always a good idea either, instead, it may actually contribute to some of the mechanical stresses, resulting in breakages and internal damage. The .177 also begins to reveal mechanical inefficiency at near the same point that the .22 begins to strut its stuff, during this transonic velocity bracket. This appears to be where the heavier, larger .22 pellets really start coming on strong and have a bunch of advantages over .177, mechanically and ballistically. At similar velocities to the .177 cal pellet (eg 900 - 1000fps), .22's will have similar trajectories and carry a whole lot more energy at those longer ranges and they are more efficient to shoot, from the rifles point of view. That makes it a better choice for hunting at these higher end velocities...
Up to or under the 1000fps mark though, I think it may be very hard to beat the .177 though and if you're ever stuck deciding, go for the .177 by default, unless you are a .22 addict, as this is almost exclusively the .177 calibre domain. I'd say that in all but the energy retention domain, the .177 might beat the .22 hands down up to around the 1000fps mark. So many pellets and so many brands and models to choose from. You will certainly be able to find yourself a good .177 somewhere in the mix...
Me, I have a mixture of .177's, .22's and .25's and there are overlaps in velocity and power amongst them,, some extreme. Each calibre has it uses, weakness and strong points... Get a calibre which suits the rifles power. That's the priority. Then choose according to your wants/needs - (the end use). Choose by calibre vs power, not velocity alone..!!
In all honesty though, as far as enrgy transferrence goes, first you have to hit the target. Smaller animals may not really notice the difference between the two calibres but I bet larger quarry will. Here, the .22, or maybe even a .25 will be a far better choice, with the right velocity, of course...
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For hunting it's .22 for me. Hunting raccoon with .177 isn't bringing enough gun for the job IMO.
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I briefly used a XS25 in 22 for squirrel and rabbit, but found my 177 B26 to be as effective. The XS25 in 22 had one or two more fpe, but I agree its all about shot placement. I was sold on the 22 after a few perfect shots gave spectacular results. But a few imperfect shots later I found little difference between 22 and 177. My best instant, humane squirrel kill was with a pointed 177 pellet at ~20 yards. Nailed it to the tree. Nothing fancy, no expanding pellets, just a good shot through the head
I definitely agree squirrels tend to be more finicky with respect to where they are shot. I've found its the rare rabbit that doesn't "drop right there" after any respectable shot. Wound a squirrel with any caliber though, and the chase is on!
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Id say go with .22 if you are using pcp and have power adjustment. turn power up to where trajectory is flatter and let it fly.
I have always gone with .22 in the past .
In wanting to keep my pellet shooting cost effective.........I have started looking more at .177.
I have just purchased a .177 (12-14ftlb range) spring gun for my non-co2 fall hunting supply, and have been using a Webley Alecto Ultra in .177 with great success out to 30 yds.
I have come to believe that both have advantages and disadvantages, but both can be good hunters on stuff up to raccoon sized animal.
The .177 needs shot placement to be a little more precise.
IMO the biggest thing you need to be able to with .177 AND .22 is practice in a live scenario. Nothing elaborate.
Put a target in a tree. Shoot in the backyard from a stand if you shoot from above. Shoot standing, kneeling and prone. when you can repeatedly hit the red dot, you are golden.
I use targets that I print from the intenet, that are actual animal photos. Helps me develop my "shot-placement skills" for scenarios like quartering shots, hard angles, etc.
One thing I have found MORE important with .177 also is pellet BC. A good~ 800 fps shot with a 7.5 grain or higher pellet will retain more energy at 40 yds than a pellet with a lower bc.
Chairgun lists several pellets BC, and I always test my guns with the highest bc pellets to start with. The best groupers that hold 1/2 to 3/4 inch at range are next. Then best bc again, then price.
Lately in .177 I have settled with Crosman pointeds. They have a very good bc. Right on the borderline of wieght at 7.4 grains, but they give 620+ fps out of the Alecto......which translates into good rabbit hunting power to 30 yds. They are also very affordable. If they werent, Id go with JSB 8.4s.
Big price difference, but both shoot very accurately, and because of good BC, both retain energy well.
with the smaller projectiles, the ability of the pellet to fly accurately and retain energy is more important than with .22.....not that its NOT important with .22 but just that there is a little more forgiveness with .22
Theres no replacement for displacement.
God bless,
Farmer
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Lately in .177 I have settled with Crosman pointeds. They have a very good bc. Right on the borderline of wieght at 7.4 grains, but they give 620+ fps out of the Alecto......which translates into good rabbit hunting power to 30 yds. They are also very affordable. If they werent, Id go with JSB 8.4s.
Wow you have been looking over my shoulder, I just got my 1st box of Crosman pointeds 7.4 grain pellets for 14.86. It was a choice of that or the JSB 8.4's.
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Split the difference - get a .20 !
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http://varmintair.typepad.com/varmintairs_blog/fwb-300s-sporter/ (http://varmintair.typepad.com/varmintairs_blog/fwb-300s-sporter/)