GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Crosman Airguns => Topic started by: Flyboy on August 04, 2013, 10:35:49 AM
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I thought I'd start a topic about how to get the most out of your Crosman 22XX series of CO2 gas guns.
The idea is that I will start off and then you guys can chime in with your tips and any corrections.
I am mainly thinking about how to get the most velocity, as that is what most of us are striving for.
So here goes.
I like to apply points and principles to things, so have come up with six principles that can alter the muzzle velocity of your guns...
1) Gun (e.g. 2240, 2250, 2260, etc.)
2) Ammo (caliber, shape, weight, etc.)
3) Gas (CO2, HPA)
4) Atmosphere (warm/dry, cool/wet)
5) Procedure (lubed seals, dieseling pellets, time between shots, etc.)
6) Mods (longer barrels, better hammer springs, power adjusters, better valves, seals, etc.)
What combination do you use and what sort of numbers are you getting?
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I personally don't have one, but I had an old friend who did. If I remember correctly, I think he said it had a upgraded hammer spring (he said he got it from a junked mole trap), power adjuster, and an extended barrel (he said 12") in .22. He said some other stuff which I didn't really understand, as I was new to airguns. However, what I do remember is that he could get, with PBA Raptor pellets, around 575-600 with everything maxed out, acording to his chrony. The major downside was that we could fire about 15-20 shots before you had to change CO2. Don't know everything he did to it, but I do know that's one impressive pistol.
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This is going to be very interesting subject.
Those that are going for power my question is this at what price do you stop at(larger springs,power adj,,larger valve etc.,etc.) There comes a point in my opinion
when the cost per shot is way to much. 10 shots per charge vs 35 shots.
I would think at some point it would be time to just get a more powerfull gun PCP etc.
I love my set up 2300kt with the lothar barrel .177 but I just paper punch and do respect those looking for more power.
WWR
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The only performance difference between the 2240/50/60 is the barrel length....
Pellets should be suitable for the intended target, and accuracy is everything....
CO2 has problems in cold weather, is expensive, and the stock guns waste a lot of it, particularly with short barrels.... Modding the gun wastes even more unless you DETUNE it....
HPA conversions, other than the HiPac type, pressurize the tube and require many modifications and a working knowledge of PCP safety....
Temperature has a big effect on CO2, the other things don't really matter to CO2 or HPA to any significant degree....
These guns can't diesel, although oiling the pellets in an HPA version might, and is NOT advised.... 30 seconds between shots in CO2 is a good average, with HPA it doesn't matter....
See above.... Mod a CO2 version and waste even more CO2, although with an 18-24" barrel some gains can be made in performance to compensate you for that cost.... Heavier hammer springs are a waste of time on CO2, high-flow valves can give you more power with long barrels, but fewer shots....
Bob
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Buy a Hipac, pin the valve and cut off the piercing pin. Use a heavier hammer spring. These mods alone will get you 500+ fps on a stock barrel 2240 with 14.3 grain pellets at a 2000 psi fill. In my experience every 6 inches you add to the barrel will get you another 100 fps.
Here's my Hipac modded gun. I did the above mentioned mods plus bored out the valve slightly. 12" barrel slings JSB exact 15.9 grain pellets at 650 fps.
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Buy a Hipac, pin the valve and cut off the piercing pin. Use a heavier hammer spring. These mods alone will get you 500+ fps on a stock barrel 2240 with 14.3 grain pellets at a 2000 psi fill. In my experience every 6 inches you add to the barrel will get you another 100 fps.
Here's my Hipac modded gun. I did the above mentioned mods plus bored out the valve slightly. 12" barrel slings JSB exact 15.9 grain pellets at 650 fps.
Nicely done.
WWR
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Thanks for the input, guys.
To answer the question about where do you stop at regarding cost/power... my aim is simply to bring my 2250B up to the UK legal limit. It's a fantastic looking gun with a great feel. I love it. And I just want it to be able to have the range and power of my springer. When I have achieved that, my springer will be redundant for anything but wanton tinny spinning sessions.
I don't really see CO2 as being expensive, even though I am now getting less shots after modifying my gun. This gun is a hunter/killer, I am no longer using it as a paper puncher/tinny spinner like I was when I first got it. If I only get 15-20 shots per capsule, so be it, they're only like 50p per capsule at my local gun shop... even cheaper online. Realistically, where I shoot, I am only getting perhaps 10 or so chances at quarry per session. So I may even get TWO sessions out of ONE CO2 capsule... not bad if you ask me.
I agree that a HiPac would be a better option as you get more power right-off-the-bat, less atmospheric interference, etc. But I don't necessarily want to pay in excess of £500 on a gun right away. I've enjoyed selecting and fitting custom parts for my 2250, each time adding that bit more power, when I could afford it. It wouldn't be as fun just to have it all in one go. Also, I don't like the look of most PCPs available in the UK... all bulky Air Arms and Daystates. I would have to go for a Benjamin Marauder pistol, but I don't know if you can even get them in this country regulated down to the UK legal limit. I've also never liked the thought of using a glorified bicycle pump to charge the gun... it's much more classy to swap out an empty CO2 capsule for a full one. ;)
As a side-note, I am also caught up in the stigma of PCP, being from the UK. I understand that PCP airguns are widely used in the U.S., potentially because you guys don't have power limits. Prices where you are, are also dirt cheap compared to here. In the UK, PCP airguns are seen as elitist... only the 'rich' enthusiasts can afford them, only the most hardcore of hunters have a need to use them. At £180 for just the pump, is it any wonder? CO2 is much more widely available to me, at least on a local level, and it fits in better with my budget and requirements.
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Flyboy,
Well said. Look forward to following all the up grades. After I get tired of paper punching I might have to do what you are doing.
WWR
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Cold weather hunting is a great excuse for getting a pcp. Drops your fsp down drastically using co2.
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I didn't realize you were in the UK. My apologies. As has been stated PCP is so much better than CO2 in cold temperatures but CO2 will work just fine for your application in milder temps. Simply a heavier hammer spring and longer barrel will get you to 12 Ft-Lbs. You'll most likely waste CO2 but it will get you there.
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You'd have thought that someone, somewhere would have thought of using an alternative gas in the form of a 12g capsule. Why aren't there different concentrations or mixtures of CO2 available? Who says it has to be CO2 at all? In airsoft, there are several strengths of gas and for different atmospheric temperatures. I'd like to see this principle applied to CO2.
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CO2 is used because at normal temperatures a large percentage of it is a liquid, so a lot more of it can be packed in to a 12g. sized container.... and that means more shots.... There aren't that many other non-flammable gasses that can be stored at room temperature as a liquid (I can't think of any offhand).... It's that boiling off to change from a liquid to a gas that causes the drop in temperature when firing rapidly.... and also that causes the lower vapour pressure (and lower velocity) in cold conditions....
I'd like to hear about these "several strengths of gas" used in airsoft.... please educate us.... I've heard of "green gas" (which is Propane) that is ignited for each shot, of course.... What else is there besides HPA where you can vary the pressure of the regulator setpoint?....
Bob
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CO2 is used because at normal temperatures a large percentage of it is a liquid, so a lot more of it can be packed in to a 12g. sized container.... and that means more shots.... There aren't that many other non-flammable gasses that can be stored at room temperature as a liquid (I can't think of any offhand).... It's that boiling off to change from a liquid to a gas that causes the drop in temperature when firing rapidly.... and also that causes the lower vapour pressure (and lower velocity) in cold conditions....
Why does it even have to be non-flammable gas?
I'd like to hear about these "several strengths of gas" used in airsoft.... please educate us.... I've heard of "green gas" (which is Propane) that is ignited for each shot, of course.... What else is there besides HPA where you can vary the pressure of the regulator setpoint?....
The propane is not 'ignited', it's used purely as a gas to propel the BB under pressure... same as CO2 in airguns.
I'm no expert, but there are several 'strengths' of gas available for airsoft guns. Also different ones for 'summer', 'winter' or all-year. I don't know about exact chemical compositions or pressures, though.
Please see product descriptions at the links below...
Standard Blow Back Gas
http://www.surplusstore.co.uk/bb-guns/bb-gun-accessories/bb-ammunition-gas/144a-gas.html (http://www.surplusstore.co.uk/bb-guns/bb-gun-accessories/bb-ammunition-gas/144a-gas.html)
Medium Blow Back Gas
http://www.surplusstore.co.uk/bb-guns/bb-gun-accessories/bb-ammunition-gas/predator-ultragas-gbb-softair-gas.html (http://www.surplusstore.co.uk/bb-guns/bb-gun-accessories/bb-ammunition-gas/predator-ultragas-gbb-softair-gas.html)
Sniper Blow Back Gas
http://www.surplusstore.co.uk/bb-guns/bb-gun-accessories/bb-ammunition-gas/abbey-brut-sniper-gas.html (http://www.surplusstore.co.uk/bb-guns/bb-gun-accessories/bb-ammunition-gas/abbey-brut-sniper-gas.html)
You may also find these archived posts from an airsoft forum useful in understanding the different strengths and types of gas, and their applications within airsoft...
http://forums.zeroin.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-91749.html (http://forums.zeroin.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-91749.html)
http://forums.zeroin.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-207447.html (http://forums.zeroin.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-207447.html)
Hope this explains things a bit.
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Propane in Paintball applications WAS ignited.... in Airsoft apparently it is NOT.... I think this quote from the last link above will explain why these gasses are not used in place of CO2....
CO2 - different to all the others in that you can't inject it into normal GBB mags, but it must be bought in 12g capsules which are inserted into special magazines. Very powerful, the only gas that's really happy in the cold but normally requires at least a metal slide to not shred your gun.
All I can say, is that if CO2 is better in the cold than any of the airsoft gasses, and more powerful.... using blends of airsoft gas would appear to be a waste of time.... but I know nothing about airsoft, I'm just going by the quoted statement....
Bob
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Pressure of various gasses at 70*F:
CO2 - 850 psi
"Guarder" gas - 160 psi
Propylene (Propene) 133 psi
Propane (green gas for airsoft) - 120 psi
"Ultra" gas - between 144A and Propane
R134A / 144A - 70 psi
Butane - 35 psi
I don't think we need to discuss airsoft gasses any further in a 22XX thread....
Bob
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Yeah, if CO2 fares better than all other AIRSOFT gas in the COLD... it doesn't say a lot for the others!
But I wasn't meaning to use blends of airsoft gases, just saying why can't there be other blends of CO2 or higher pressure gases?
Interesting list of gases and their associated PSI. Where did you find that info?
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My dad has a 2240 and just got a longer barrel for it. While putting it together, one of the springs sprung and he lost a small part (yikes). Anyways, he has a new part coming. No plinking for him this past weekend though :(
Anyways, I have become interested in getting a 2240 after shooting his a few times. I have a question about a mod from ar cher air.
The mod is the tank block kit.
Has anyone used this mod? My main concern is, will drilling holes in the gas tube prevent me from using CO2 cartridges in the future. I'd hate to run a canister dry and not be able to shoot until I get it filled. I'm not even sure where I can get CO2 filled locally. I have friends who are/were into paintball so I'm sure they have an idea. But the point remains, I'd like to be able to have cartridges as backup.
There are a few other mods on ar cher air that I am looking at. Would any of them be worth my time as far as performance goes? The other two I am considering if I were to get a 2240 are the SuperSear and the Steel Breach Kit. And eventually a longer barrel.
Any other suppliers you guys can recommend would be appreciated
Thanks for all your help
edit: random space in ar cher because it ended up posting funny. link ended up posting funny too
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I don't know about the A rcher Airguns Tank Block Kit, but you might also consider the HiPac conversion from Powermax-Hipac.com. I haven't used it, but it claims to do "12g CO2 to HPA/N2/CO2 bulk-fill/feed and back again". So unless I've interpreted it wrongly, you can fill from a hand pump/scuba tank for true PCP, or revert to 12g CO2 capsules for CO2... giving you a few options to play with in one system.
As for other suppliers, in the USA, I have used and can recommend CrookedBarn.com. If you're OK with buying from overseas, I have used and can also recommend the UK suppliers gmaccustomparts.com and sdcustomdesign.com.
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I Googled the gasses to get the pressures.... There are no "higher pressure blends of CO2", it self regulates with a pressure dependant on the temperature....
RE the tank block from a QB, it has to be bolted to the full thickness part of a QB or 22XX tube, which means cutting off the threaded end.... Therefore you can no longer run the 12 gr. powerlets...
Bob
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Does anyone have any experience with using a Hammer Debounce Device (HDD) with a Boss 12-gram valve in a 22XX? From what I've read this could help increase the average shots per cartridge.
I keep a list of possible mods I'd like to make to my newish 2300k and these are on as "need more feedback".
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Does anyone have any experience with using a Hammer Debounce Device (HDD) with a Boss 12-gram valve in a 22XX? From what I've read this could help increase the average shots per cartridge.
I keep a list of possible mods I'd like to make to my newish 2300k and these are on as "need more feedback".
I don't have any personal experience but I just did a quick Google search and found this interesting link...
http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php?topic=2579 (http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php?topic=2579)
EDIT: Sorry, it doesn't mention how well it works with the Boss Valve. :-[
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I don't have any personal experience but I just did a quick Google search and found this interesting link...
http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php?topic=2579 (http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php?topic=2579)
EDIT: Sorry, it doesn't mention how well it works with the Boss Valve. :-[
Thanks Flyboy. I found a few articles here as well after some searching. From what I've read I've concluded that the HDD can add more shots but in the long run they tend to fall apart, which can damage the gun, because they are plastic.
Perhaps a high quality, high impact plastic would work better. I will do some more research and see what's available.
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i've recently been making a 2540. this may be over your 12 ft lb limit across the pond. i have the 12g boss valve, 18" .25 barrel. i don't have a chrony yet, but it has a serious whack on targets. only getting 10-12 shots how it's adjusted currently.
i don't worry about cost per shot. i don't feel that you can get the most out of something if you start with limits in money or anything else. just seems to be counter-productive toward your stated goals.
i also think the p-rod trigger is a large step in getting the most out of your 2240.
peace
kj
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Yeah I think possibly your .25 cal conversion may take it over the 12 ft. lbs. UK limit! However, it all depends on what sort of muzzle velocity you're getting and what grain of pellet you are using... as I'm sure you're very much aware.
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Thanks Flyboy. I found a few articles here as well after some searching. From what I've read I've concluded that the HDD can add more shots but in the long run they tend to fall apart, which can damage the gun, because they are plastic.
Perhaps a high quality, high impact plastic would work better. I will do some more research and see what's available.
Hi guys,
Airguns of Arizona sells an HDD for the Disco. Since the same steel breach can fit a 22xx, you can give it a try. There's also a video I YouTube for a cheaper version, do a search for ".25 ct HDD discovery". It shows interesting results.
I have both a Disco and a 2240 and I'm planning on trying both kinds of HDD's on them, maybe make them out of hard plastic pipe or "fish tank pipe".
I hope that helps.
Take care!
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Here are some pictures of the AoA HDD, I thnk you can easily make it: