GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => "Bob and Lloyds Workshop" => Topic started by: rsterne on July 08, 2013, 05:36:03 PM
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I received two new Ninja SHP Pro 13 CI / 3000 psi tank and regulator combos the other day, and just had the opportunity to examine them in detail.... The "SHP" designation means Super High Pressure, and the "Pro" designation indicates they have the new 360* rotation collar that allows you to orient the fill nipple and gauge wherever you want.... They are advertised as 1100 psi output, user adjustable down to 950 psi by the removal of three 0.004" shims, and come with an excellent instruction sheet.... The new bonnet has two O-rings to seal the ASA output.... You will require an 8-32 Allen wrench and a 2" long 8-32 screw to remove the bonnet to change the shims, and the 8-32 wrench also allows you to rotate the aluminum collar.... Note that this new regulator uses three 8-32 screws, rather than the two 10-32 screws of the earlier model, and further, the gauge and fill nipple are 180* apart rather than 90*, plus the gauge is a much smaller one.... The new regulator is 0.10" longer than the previous model without the 360* rotation adjustment, but still significantly shorter than a JDS regulator.... Here is what it looks like disassembled....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/QB%20on%20HPA/IMG_3557_zps8302a21d.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/QB%20on%20HPA/IMG_3557_zps8302a21d.jpg.html)
Before loosening any of the setscrews, to either rotate the collar to change the orientation, or to remove the bonnet, MAKE SURE THE TANK IS EMPTY.... Drain the tank completely until no more air comes out, and then double check by depressing the pin valve in the middle of the ASA output and make sure no air escapes.... To change the orientation, simply slack off the three setscrews in the aluminum collar and rotate the tank/regulator assembly to where you want it relative to the ASA output and then snug up the screws again.... The aluminum collar is retained on the regulator body by a coiled snap ring arrangement and is NOT designed to be user removable.... I would NOT remove the collar or disturb the retaining ring, as once pressurized that ring appear to be keeping the collar on the regulator body.... I did not disturb it to check, and I'm sure the setscrews add strength, but I wouldn't want to chance it....
To remove the bonnet, remove the three setscrews completely, insert the 2" long 8-32 screw to give you some leverage to unscrew the bonnet, and loosen it slightly.... Once you can turn it by hand, REMOVE THE 8-32 SCREW or you will damage the male thread on the aluminum collar when you unscrew the bonnet.... The pin valve will normally stay inside the bonnet, I removed it to show you what it looks like.... The return spring for it is inside the piston, and is easy to lose, so don't do that!.... The piston is an updated version, having a taper on the inlet end, and two O-rings on the outlet end.... However, it is dimensionally identical to the older model, and is interchangeable with it.... There were eleven 0.032" thick Belleville washers (disc springs) installed, and three 0.004" thick shims, arranged as follows:
||| ) () () () () ((
The two Bellevilles against the shoulder on the piston were black instead of silver, but measured the same thickness.... I do not know if they have the same spring rate, however.... According to Ninja, removing all three shims reduces the setpoint of the regulator to 950 psi from 1100.... When I tested the output pressure of the regulator (with two gauges) I got 1200-1230 psi.... The gauges both have 100 psi increments on a 270* scale, and agreed within 30 psi.... I also did some limited experimenting using the piston, shims and Bellevilles from the new SHP regulator in an old Ninja body I had, and found that the setpoint was higher at 1400 psi.... I also removed the three shims and substituted one more 0.032" (black) Belleville (for a total of 12) and in the old regulator body I got 1700 psi.... That would be too high for a 1.8K burst disc, you would likely blow the disc, especially if the tank warmed up after filling.... When I put that assembly into the SHP regulator, the pressure was 200 psi lower, and measured 1500-1530 psi (with my two gauges).... That is about maximum to not keep blowing the 1.8K burst disc, although it may still fail from fatigue, and I'm 99% sure Ninja would not approve of this modification.... The twelve 0.032" Bellevilles I used were oriented this way....
)) () () () () ((
No shims were used, and if anyone tries this, I would advise you to proceed slowly and with caution as if your particular regulator has slightly different tolerances, and/or if the 1.8K burst disc is on the low side of its tolerance range.... the disc is likely to fail and scare the heck out of you.... That just means it's doing it's job, but I can guarantee you, you will jump!.... NEVER change out the low side 1.8K burst disc for one of a higher rating, as the rotating aluminum collar attachment may be overstressed, and I wouldn't want to be near one if the bonnet/collar assembly blew off the end of the regulator body....
In summary, I really like the new Ninja SHP Pro Regulator.... It is nearly as compact as the older model, and the ability to rotate the gauge and fill fitting to clear the gun is a major plus.... The two I received were 1200 psi, not the 1100 advertised, but that actually pleases me.... Whether other ones would be the same as mine, as advertised, or even a lower pressure I don't know.... I purchased these to build a new QB79, and since the hammer spring on a QB is capable of handling about 1200 psi they should be ideal for that purpose.... Ninja, incidently, sell service kits for all their regulators....
Bob
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What size are the 0.032" Belleville washers in Ninja regs?
I'm about to take one from 850 to 1200psi for someone, and figure I might as well order in some washers before I start!
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They are 5/16" ID x 5/8" OD.... Ninja use three different ones, 0.022", 0.032", AND 0.047" thick depending on the application....
Bob
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What's the over all length with this regulator?
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From the shoulder on the ASA fitting to the end of the tank 8.8".... ie that is how much it would stick out from the tank block on a QB79....
Bob
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That photo also show just how little the new Pro regulator is longer than the old Ninja reg....
Bob
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That's shorter than a 12oz co2 bottle. I've been looking at that setup if I decide to go HPA.
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Saved, thank you for the stack diagam...
pic of old vs new guage:
[smg id=1352]
John
The tiny gauge comes standard with the Pro edition regulators. We have 3 models but only one would pertain to airguns, which is the SHP. The regulators are almost identical in length. What we did on the Pro SHP regulator is take the bonnet (top half of the regulator), shorten it, added a rotational collar to be able to reposition the fill nipple (male quick disconnect) and gauge in case you have clearance issues. Here's a vid of the rotational collar and how we use it in a paintball application.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhwDydBMlAM#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhwDydBMlAM#ws)
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Here are the results of installing a stock Ninja SHP Pro tank and regulator on a QB79 to convert it to HPA....
Stock QB79: 135 shots at 609 fps (11.8 FPE)
Stage 1 Tune (top end work only): 105 shots at 738 fps (17.3 FPE)
Stage 2 Tune (Maxi-Valve): 80 shots at 847 fps (22.8 FPE)
For further information, check out this thread.... http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=49943.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=49943.0)
Bob
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I just wanted to share my experience in adjusting an SHP regulator. Mine came from the factory with the following washer stack:
|||)()()()()((
Where:
- three (3) thin flat washers totalled 0.016" thick (about 5 thousandths each)
- six (6) silver belleville washers, each 0.035" thick
- five (5) black belleville washers, each 0.032" thick
Note this stack is slightly different than Bob's. Same number of flat washers (3) and bellevilles (11). The flat washers measured 0.016" total instead of 0.012". And the bellevilles were a mix of silver and black like Bob's but mine differed in thickness, the silver being 0.035" each and the black being 0.032" each.
What's the significance of those differences? I don't know for sure, but to me it implies Ninja tweaks each regulator to achieve the target output pressure. Relatively small differences in the stack can make a big difference in the setpoint so careful trial and error is the name of the game here. For a relatively low cost of $25, I assembled the pressure tester you see below using an adapter that screws onto the bottle (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009EVFKNI/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and a 4,000psi gauge (http://www.mcmaster.com/#9767T21). It suits my needs just fine but if I could change one thing, it would be to shop around for a 2,000psi gauge for better resolution in the 1k-2k range. With the 4k gauge, the graduations are in 200psi increments so it's good for 100psi resolution with a specified accuracy of 5% at full scale.
Anyway, back to the adjusting the washer stack. I did not measure the starting pressure but it's supposed to be 1100psi. I was targeting 30fpe with a QB78 so I figured I would need higher pressure, maybe 1300psi as a starting point. I got lucky and hit it on the first try by replacing the three (3) flat washers with a single 0.022" belleville (McMaster 9713K65 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#9713K65)) as follows:
))()()()()((
At that pressure, the rifle was tossing JSB 18.1gr at over 31fpe but it sounded like a multi-pump pneumatic. That is, a pump-n-dump...very loud and surely using a lot of air. I could have tuned the hammer spring preload to remedy it but I knew from reading others' project notes that better efficiency could be had by running higher pressure so I proceeded to adjust the washer stack to 1500psi, which as Bob has indicated is about as high as you want to go with an 1800psi burst disc on the regulator. Again, I lucked out and hit it on the first try by replacing the aforementioned 0.022" belleville with a 0.032" belleville (McMaster 9713K66 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#9713K66)) as follows:
))()()()()((
With the rifle running at 1500psi, I backed off the hammer spring preload until the velocity just began to fall and got an efficiency of 1.04 fpe/ci. That yields about 46 shots averaging 30.2fpe from a 3000psi fill down to 1500psi.
And with that result I am positively delighted. Many thanks to Bob for his excellent writeups.
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How do you bleed the pressure from the test guage?....
Bob
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Good question. I thought I was going to need to install a bleeder screw into the stainless adapter but it turned out to not be necessary.
When tightened, the handscrew depresses the bonnet's pin valve to pressurize the adapter. When you back off the handscrew, it somehow bleeds off the pressure inside to allow you to remove the adapter from the bonnet. I can't see exactly how the mechanism works though.
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Must be a different type of adapter than I have ever had.... they always held pressure.... Just so long as people are aware that if it doesn't bleed off the pressure you have a problem.... When you unscrew it far enough, which is very difficult and hard on the threads on the regulator bonnet, the air pressure will vent through the hole that is visible just below the gauge in your photo.... It does that when the O-ring uncovers the hole.... With CO2 at 850 psi, this works OK, but with HPA at 1500 psi is nearly always destroys the O-ring, and scares the heck out of you the first time until you know it's coming.... If it wasn't for that hole, of course, the valve would blow off the end of the regulator with a LOT of force.... Those valves were never intended for the purpose you are using it for, or they would have a bleed valve built in.... This is the proper unit to use, or something similar....
http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/product-p/reoute.htm (http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/product-p/reoute.htm)
It sounds to me like your valve just has a leak that is allowing it to bleed once you turn it off.... If not, I'd love to know how it works....
Bob
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Bob, yes as I said I was fully expecting to have the issue you described. As long as the handscrew is screwed in to depress the tank's pin valve, it holds pressure. I am confident of that because I had to use a hand pump in multiple sessions (20-30 min cooldown) to pressurize enough for the test.
Then when I backed off the handscrew to let the tank close off, I heard a brief swish of air escape and I was able to easily unscrew the adapter from the bonnet. Can't imagine how it's constructed to allow that to work but that's what it did.
Of course I then had to drain the tank (there goes all my hard work...) before I could thread it back onto the rifle, anyway. That being the case, if it had been necessary, I was prepared to use my pump to drain the tank (bleed screw opened slightly so as to keep the check valve in the fill nipple open). Then when the tank was empty, I would be able to unscrew the adapter safely and easily.
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Actually, no you wouldn't, because the regulator would be closed, and draining the tank only seals it tighter.... If the valve doesn't bleed as you descirbe, draining the tank won't help....
Bob
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Just a followup regarding the pressure tester I assembled. You were right, Bob. The previous time I used it, it must have been a fluke that it bled off the pressure when I backed off the handscrew.
To address the problem, I drilled and tapped for a #10-32 bleeder screw opposite the gauge. The screw was then fitted with a -007 90A polyurethane O-ring, and a shallow crescent-shaped seat was milled into the adapter for the O-ring to fit into. Without this seat, the O-ring would simply stretch and pop out from under the screw head somewhere between 700-800psi. Have since used it a few times to set / check regulators from 1100 - 1500psi and it suits my needs but it is not a simple plug-n-play operation as it first seemed.
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Great write ups. I'm going to go with the Ninja SHP Pro over the cheaper Guerrilla Myth since you guys have documented it so well.
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I got my Ninja Paintball 13 ci SHP Pro regulator set to 1,500 psi by adding 1 spring washer nested inside the last original spring washer,
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http://www.mcmaster.com/#9713k65/=r8fwqr (http://www.mcmaster.com/#9713k65/=r8fwqr)
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and removing two of the three original thin flat shims and installing two .010 shims.
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http://www.mcmaster.com/#97022a378/=r8fxvp (http://www.mcmaster.com/#97022a378/=r8fxvp)
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The paintball shop gave me two remote shut offs he had laying in the box when the hoses went bad. I screwed my pressure gauge in without thread sealer. I could then tighten it up to get a reading while I filled the bottle and then crack it a quarter turn so it had a slight leak in order to de gas between trial and errors to find the right shim stack. If I was doing many more of these I would want to come up with something quicker to de gas. This bottle is going under the fore stock of an XS60C.
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Early "non pro" version regulated 13 ci Ninja Paintball bottles can be found for $50 each but theses are the regulators with the coiled spring instead of the disk springs. They take the same size shims for adjustment but won't go much above 1,000 psi without going completely out of regulation for some reason.
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That's because they are designed for 450-850 psi and the spring goes into coil bind if you try and shim it for much more than that.... You can use that regulator, but you must replace the coil spring with the stack of 0.032" Bellevilles....
Bob
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So a stack of these 145 pound bellevilles and some shims can get the early version regulator to 1,300 psi?
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http://www.mcmaster.com/#9713k66/=rblzor (http://www.mcmaster.com/#9713k66/=rblzor)
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Did you have a thread on this regulator?
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They are dimensionally the same.... However, you always have to play with the shims to get a specific pressure, nobody will be able to give you a formula for a drop in shim stack.... only an approximation.... This is as close as I can give you....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Important/NinjaRegulators.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Important/NinjaRegulators.jpg.html)
Bob
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How hard is to tighten the SHP bonnet with the 12 - .032 discs? I should have prefaced by saying I'm shooting for 1.5K with one of the earlier Ninja regs but will have to put a strap wrench on the bonnet to to bottom it out with the 12 - .032 discs correctly within. (Old spring and shims are out)
OR
Does anyone have a dimensional drawing of the of the SHP for comparison to its older brother??
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It is normal to use a long 10-32 screw (or is it 8-32 I can't remember) as a handle to tighten the bonnet into place, Ninja supply one in their regulator rebuild kits, it threads into the set-screw hole.... A word of caution, however, when using it to remove the bonnet if you unscrew it too far it will damage the threads on the regulator body that the bonnet threads onto.... You definitely can't screw the bonnet down by hand with 12 bellevilles....
Bob
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It is normal to use a long 10-32 screw (or is it 8-32 I can't remember) as a handle to tighten the bonnet into place, Ninja supply one in their regulator rebuild kits, it threads into the set-screw hole.... A word of caution, however, when using it to remove the bonnet if you unscrew it too far it will damage the threads on the regulator body that the bonnet threads onto.... You definitely can't screw the bonnet down by hand with 12 bellevilles....
Bob
Thanks Bob. I thought I'd ask before I destroyed.
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I'll have to look at my drawing, but I only used 7 of the 0.032 and a couple 0.060 spacers and then somewhere in the range of 0.050 to hit around 1250 psi. Each 0.010 was a little over 100 psi. I used the really thick shims to spread out the force of the springs because the thinner shims were being distorted. It was difficult to screw down, but I didn't need more than the fill adaptor to provide extra area for my hand. If I went another 0.020 to try and hit 1500 it might have needed a wrench of some kind.
The edges of the springs are sharp, they need a good flat shim on either end of the stack to prevent them from eating the aluminum away as they move.
Here is the configuration
|<><><><||||
0.060 seven springs 0.060 0.020 0.010 0.020
The two 0.060 and seven springs was about the same height as the stock coil spring which is why I ended this way. When I had more springs and fewer shims I ended up somewhere above 1450 psi and stopped filling so I wouldn't blow the 1.8k disk. Swapping the 20's and 10 for another 60 would probably jack the pressure up to an even 1400 psi.
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Adding more springs and fewer shims lowers the spring rate and increases the travel.... which is generally a good thing for regulators as they tend to regulate better.... Your two 0.060" spacers would work about like 4 more bellevilles in terms of the amount of room they take up under load....
Bob
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It didn't function when I had that many more springs, I stopped filling when it was clear I was going to be over 1500 psi. But you are right that more springs and fewer shims would be best. That said I hit the range I wanted and comfortable knowing that another 0.010 would boost it up near 1400 psi which is about the most I would run. If I ever take it apart again I might trade out one or both of the thick shims for another spring, but right now it hit what I wanted.
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I just converted a coil spring Ninja paintball regulator on a 48 CI, 3000 psi tank today for filling an FD-PCP.... With the stack of twelve 0.032" bellevilles it was 1400 psi and required a 0.010" shim to bring it to 1500.... The stack was:
)) () () () () (( |
Bob
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I just converted a coil spring Ninja paintball regulator on a 48 CI, 3000 psi tank today for filling an FD-PCP.... With the stack of twelve 0.032" bellevilles it was 1400 psi and required a 0.010" shim to bring it to 1500.... The stack was:
)) () () () () (( |
Bob
Do I have to get in there and place a .010 shim in now?
Just kiddin Bob, I know all things not being equal so when I ordered the Bellevilles I ordered shims. ;)
I'm using a Guerilla 21ci tank with the Ninja reg for my buddy HPA filler tank, I will also use this to check and mod regulators. I bought a remote bottle filler with coiled hose, took the hose off my Benji pump then installed the coiled hose, used the Benji hose for my remote filler assembly with Guerilla gauge, slide check and ASA on/off pin valve.
If you see any chinks in my remote filler please advise, plus a problem I foresee is a dependable accurate gauge, with that said have you perchance sourced one Bob?
.
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Gauges are always a problem, the Chinese ones on eBay often fail, they don't like the sudden pressure swing during a shot and the lens can fall out.... and in Canada we can't get McMaster Carr to ship to us....I've never found a good 2000 psi gauge, 1500 is too low (if you max the needle it usually alters the reading), so that leaves 3000+....
Bob
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Those two nested springs on each end are really nothing more than spacers, the other springs would need to be flat before the nested pairs would start to flex, so your stack isn't really that much different from mine except you required fewer different parts. Economically, yours is better, functionally they are very similar. Though I still worry the sharp edges of the springs will eat the aluminum seats over time which is why I made sure to have a shim at each end of the stack. Maybe my concern doesn't show in real use, I'm still new to all this.
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Technically, the pairs of springs on the end will compress at half the rate of the single ones in the center, producing a spring with a progressive rate.... but you are correct, at the point the middle 8 bellevilles are compressed flat, the end ones will have only compressed half their travel (actually more than half, their rate isn't linear).... If you compare my stack with a stack of 10 with 0.048" of flat shims on the ends (the thickness of one uncompressed Belleville), mine is stiffer.... compared to a stack of 8 with 0.070" of shims on the end (the uncompressedf thickness of a pair of bellevilles), mine is softer....
There are many ways to come up with any given pressure.... The one that has the most travel tends to produce the flattest regulation curve.... You could use just 4 bellevilles and a thick stack of shims, but it wouldn't work very well....
Bob
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After reading this post with great interest i just ordered some .022 and .032 Bellevue washers and some .010 and .016 shims. I wanted to slightly increase my psi out going to somewhere between 1200-1300 psi which should give me a bit more speed without going crazy on the mods. i did a breech seal mod, and a bolt to pin bot mod so far and drilled out the back end of the valve to a Q drill size, and got rid of most of the toys that are inside the valve for a better air flow !
I should I think be able to go from 810fps with 10.5gr 177 Kodiaks to maybe 840-850fps, which will make me very happy.
This is a very good thread for reference on changing your out going psi for sure !
wll
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If you have a carbon tank, you can buy the complete bare regulator for $79 that has an output of 2900 psi. I damaged my regulator by... well, don't ask... lol... and ended up buying this as a replacement.
http://www.paintball-discounters.com/ninja-airgun-only-4500-psi-spa-regulator-2900-output/?src=prn#ProductTabs (http://www.paintball-discounters.com/ninja-airgun-only-4500-psi-spa-regulator-2900-output/?src=prn#ProductTabs)
The complete bottle with regulator can be purchased for $179, but you need a $60-$70 fill adapter. I have one of these Ninjas (Identical to the Air Venturi tank), and a Tiger Shark bottle from Joe. The setup from Joe is higher quality, no doubt, and has nicer gauges... but I usually use this one because it's smaller and handier. It's also the one I let the teenage kids use, as it's regulated and they can't over fill the guns with it.
If I were starting over on a budget... Since I have a Shoebox pump and don't NEED a huge tank... I might just buy Joe's Guppy tank and be done with it. Only thing is it isn't kid (or adult) proof when it comes to over filling the guns. LOL
The good thing about any of Joe's tanks, is they do not need fill adapters, just a female/female hose... as the vent and everything is part of the valve. The dual gauges are also nice. With not needing to buy the fill adapter, the extra cost of his tank is not THAT much more than the Ninja. Buy both a Shoebox and tank from him, and he gives you a discount. Shoebox pumps are on sale for $995 right now, I think.
Good Luck!
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Question about the ninja 13ci SHP regulator. Can I swap the fill nipple, gauge and 5000 psi burst disk’s in their respective holes or are the holes somewhat different?
Troy
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Fill nipple and gauge are both 1/8"-NPT threads and can be swapped.... The burst discs are 3/8"-24NF and seal against the bottom of the hole, so they cannot be swapped for the NPT threads.... The "PRO" regulators have a rotating collar that allows you to position the gauge and fill nipple to the sides....
Bob
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Hey rsterne..i've had a Gauntlet .22 for 3 years that has never really been that accurate. I think it's my reg. Shortly after receiving I swapped bottle to larger 22 ci and shimmed the reg to 1375. Ever since then its acted almost like an unregulated gun. Was considering getting either the Ninja pro v2 SHP and shimming to 1375 or ordering the Ninja X pressure custom set to 1375. I have the gauge to check reg psi as well as shims. Which do u think would be more consistent. The x pressure is only $25 more but would be until July before receiving. I have the Gauntlet in .25 as well that has oem reg psi and smaller tank and its deadly accurate out to 80 yds. Thanks Trevor
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I've never use the "X" custom regulator, but either way, if you tune to the knee of the curve, any slight inconsistency in the regulator output won't affect the ES in any meaningful way.... The variations in pellet fit and weight will have a bigger effect than any slight drift.... A properly tuned regulated PCP is operating like it's at the top plateau of a bell curve, where even 200 psi pressure change doesn't change the velocity....
Bob