GTA
Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 => Topic started by: stevemag on June 30, 2013, 07:08:28 PM
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A co-worker and i were discussing airguns the other day and he asked me why i don't have a pcp.
I said i though most of them would be perfect for me but pumping them is a pain to me and pumps are just another thing that breaks or wears. seems like a lot of trouble.
He then showed me scuba tanks on ebay for $50 bucks and under.
So my question would be,
what exactly do you need to make a scuba tank fill your pcp and what kind of money are we talking?
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First off make sure those $50 tanks are worth $50.
If a tank has no years left to the expiration date, than it is useless.
Before getting a tank, find out if you have a place to get it filled.
Along with the tank, you will need a fill adaptor and a hose with the right fittings to fit the gun.
As for cost, it depends on what you get. Keep in mind that the bigger size of the tank, the more fills you will get off the tank. Also the higher the psi the tank the more fills.
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Been looking into that myself, often the shipping s 35 or so, and ones close to requiring the 5 year hydro will mean another 25 for hydro. And if it fails hydro they destroy it :-).
The 62 cubic inch tank with a regulated output from Jds airman look like a god deal to me, you still need some plumbing to use t, but I can get the 62cu filled 8 miles from here for 3 bucks, the scuba would be an hour drive for a 5 dollar fill. The Benjy calculator says 83 fills on a disco from 1200 to 2k with a 525 cubic inch volume tank, the crossman calculator sticky thread says a typical 80 cu ft scuba is 600 some cubic inches, and I back figured the 62 cu ft from that number
Bill
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If you shoot a 2000 psi gun, you can buy a brand spanking new SCUBA tank and fill yoke for about $250 total and you don't have to invest any more than that if you have a reasonable dive shop nearby. That's about 80 fills on a Disco if you fill to 2000 and refill at 1000 and you have an 80CF SCUBA tank filled to 3000 psi.
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ta a dive/scuba shop locally i found used 80, tank fresh hydra,and life time refills for $125.00, has 2 of them, 125.00 each,he may deal if i buy both,is that a good deal?i did not price his new ones, that don't seem to bad to me, but hey i never owned a scuba tank before, i to am considering p.c.p air guns, too, and big bore as well. i think jonnyreb went that way with free refills,when he got the big bore. ;D
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ta a dive/scuba shop locally i found used 80, tank fresh hydra,and life time refills for $125.00, has 2 of them, 125.00 each,he may deal if i buy both,is that a good deal?i did not price his new ones, that don't seem to bad to me, but hey i never owned a scuba tank before, i to am considering p.c.p air guns, too, and big bore as well. i think jonnyreb went that way with free refills,when he got the big bore. ;D
$125 with lifetime re-fills? i'd say that's a good deal. if i found that deal, i would've taken a tank on the spot.
but i shoot a Discovery and i can use the 3K fill pressure.
if you are talking about going big-bore pcp, no dice. those guns typically run at 3K in the tank so you'd need the higher pressure (4500psi) tanks.
kgb
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I exchanged a few emails with a dive shop about an hours drive away, they say 159 new including the first fill for an 80 cu ft aluminum . Then 5 a fill after that.
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With free refills, that could be worth it if you cascade, but it won't be as convenient as having a 4500 PSI tank (particularly for the 3k psi guns).
It will be more and more worth it with cascading the more tanks you have, but will still be more work than a single 4500 psi tank.
If you have a Disco or another rifle with only a 2k psi fill, those tanks would definitely be worth it!
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ta a dive/scuba shop locally i found used 80, tank fresh hydra,and life time refills for $125.00, has 2 of them, 125.00 each,he may deal if i buy both,is that a good deal?i did not price his new ones, that don't seem to bad to me, but hey i never owned a scuba tank before, i to am considering p.c.p air guns, too, and big bore as well. i think jonnyreb went that way with free refills,when he got the big bore. ;D
$125 with lifetime re-fills? i'd say that's a good deal. if i found that deal, i would've taken a tank on the spot.
but i shoot a Discovery and i can use the 3K fill pressure.
if you are talking about going big-bore pcp, no dice. those guns typically run at 3K in the tank so you'd need the higher pressure (4500psi) tanks.
kgb
so those tanks aren't 4500psi tanks? so what is a 4500psi tank a 97? i want the correct tank and these pcp set up are new to me,educate me please cause i,m willing to learn.
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ta a dive/scuba shop locally i found used 80, tank fresh hydra,and life time refills for $125.00, has 2 of them, 125.00 each,he may deal if i buy both,is that a good deal?i did not price his new ones, that don't seem to bad to me, but hey i never owned a scuba tank before, i to am considering p.c.p air guns, too, and big bore as well. i think jonnyreb went that way with free refills,when he got the big bore. ;D
$125 with lifetime re-fills? i'd say that's a good deal. if i found that deal, i would've taken a tank on the spot.
but i shoot a Discovery and i can use the 3K fill pressure.
if you are talking about going big-bore pcp, no dice. those guns typically run at 3K in the tank so you'd need the higher pressure (4500psi) tanks.
kgb
so those tanks aren't 4500psi tanks? so what is a 4500psi tank a 97? i want the correct tank and these pcp set up are new to me,educate me please cause i,m willing to learn.
no they arent.
scuba tanks are 3000psi.
SCBA tanks run at 4500psi.
you can get all sizes of scba tanks,
from very small ones that will fit in a backpack that will give you a couple fills,
to large tanks (such as my 97 cu ft joe b great white tank) that fills my marauder at least 70-80 times.
also, i used to fill at dive shops,
but my closest one was about 25 miles away,and with gas and price to fill i was looking at $20+ each time i needed my tank filled.
so now i get my local fire station to fill my tank for me,
they are barely 2 min away and fill my tank for free (although i usually bring em a pizza or something similar)
the only thing was,i had to get a firehouse adapter for my tank,
considering the gas i save each time i fill its already paid for itself after only 3 fills.
but for guys with 2000psi max discos,a 3000psi scuba would be a very cost effective tank,
BUT
if youre ever going to get any other pcp's youll want a 4500psi tank.
because a standard scuba will only fill a 3000psi gun 1 time before pressure falls below 3000psi.
just my .02 :)
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think i got it, 1 fill at 3k and each fill after would drop lower and lower, thus if i was running a 3k set up. the gun would get less and less shots per fill, is that correct? so big bores are 3k set ups there for needing 4.5kpsi tanks, what about say a bt65 or a Benjamin marauder , would 3k tank be correct? :-\
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think i got it, 1 fill at 3k and each fill after would drop lower and lower, thus if i was running a 3k set up. the gun would get less and less shots per fill, is that correct? so big bores are 3k set ups there for needing 4.5kpsi tanks, what about say a bt65 or a Benjamin marauder , would 3k tank be correct? :-\
If a gun takes 3000 psi to fill and the tank only has 3000 psi in it, then you only get one (1) 3000 psi fill.
In the real world of pcp’s, each gun has a sweet spot. A pressure that they perform the best at.
As an example my AA S500 takes a 3000 psi to fill, but the sweet spot starts at 2800 psi. So by only filling to gun to 2800 psi, I get more fills off that same 3000 psi tank.
How many more fills you ask. That depends on how low I let the pressure drop before I refill the gun.
There are fill calculators to figure that out.
I own a compressor, so I have all the air I need. Filling my tank only take about 5 minutes. So I never worry about having air.
The compressor only puts out 3200 psi. So I fill my tank to 3200 psi. I will get 5 to 10 (maybe more) fills off a tank before it needs refilling at 2800 psi. It just depends on what guns I fill and what psi I fill them to and shoot them down to.
If I had to depend on having to go to a shop to have my tank filled, I would only use a scba (4500 psi) tank.
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Talking to a guy I know who is IN the know, to make it even more confusing the BEST tanks in his opinion are STEEL 3442 tanks, they can be filled to 3442 PSI. He dives for a living. He said some places will not hydro aluminum tanks, he only uses steel. The 80cu ft 3442 steel are more easily acquired, the 100 and 120 cu ft according to him are used by "technical" divers....and do not show up cheap much on the secondary market.
An 80 cu ft 3442 steel tank is smaller than an aluminum 80 cu ft 3000 psi tank because it still holds 80 cu ft, but at a higher pressure.
Bill
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OK so if i say bought a hatsan bt65 in 25cal, or at44, which tank do i need; or will work,
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BT65 and AT44 both fill to 3000 psi, so the SCBA tank would be better.
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Steve,
I would invest in a tank simply because of the "quality" of the air you get from a fill, versus your pump. Moisture is your enemy. Under high pressure, you make steam, and corrosion problems will follow in your rifle. A commercial or military dive station is bound to provide as dry and clean air as you can get. Don't look only at their pump...but the cleaning and drying that goes into it. When I compared costs against handpumps, rebuilds, and the rifle...it was a slam dunk.
Hope this helps.
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O.K. I'm the NuBe back again...
I asked for advise concerning what to buy--I know, why not ask what the meaning of life is...
I got a few replies and it seems that the pcp ones might be the way to go--or not...
But, I have several CO2 tanks from a keg system I had years ago. A couple of them still have CO2 in them...
Is that the gas I need for the pcp rifles?...
And, how do you control how much psi of gas goes into the rifle?...
Do the fill tanks have to have gauges to control pressure to the rifle?...
Never knew this airgun stuff was so complicated...
Thanks...BCB
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Simply...Co2 tanks aren't suitable for high pressure air. Scuba tanks are the ticket. Beware that tanks have a lifespan. If you buy a cheap auction tank that is expired, nobody will fill it. Same with one that has just had it's last inspection...it'll be dead soon. Be careful in your purchase. You will need a fill hose and regulator, that is pretty common fair.
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Simply...Co2 tanks aren't suitable for high pressure air. Scuba tanks are the ticket. Beware that tanks have a lifespan. If you buy a cheap auction tank that is expired, nobody will fill it. Same with one that has just had it's last inspection...it'll be dead soon. Be careful in your purchase. You will need a fill hose and regulator, that is pretty common fair.
Thanks for the reply...
I know with CO2 tanks, I had to get the pressure tested every 10(?) years I think. If they passed, they were good for 10(?) more years...
Is it that way with scuba tanks or do they have a definite regulated amount of time they can be used and then after that, they can not be legally filled. OR can they get a pressure test and be good for as long as they pass the test?...
BCB
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In general: every 5 years: hydro test. "Officially" dead after 15 years from date of manufacture. Any reputable place won't fill them without a valid hydro and you won't get a reputable place to hydro test a cylinder that is more than 15 years old. If you have a Shoebox or other compressor, you can fill them after that, but most usually fill to a reduced pressure for a seat of the pants "safety factor".
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In general: every 5 years: hydro test. "Officially" dead after 15 years from date of manufacture. Any reputable place won't fill them without a valid hydro and you won't get a reputable place to hydro test a cylinder that is more than 15 years old. If you have a Shoebox or other compressor, you can fill them after that, but most usually fill to a reduced pressure for a seat of the pants "safety factor".
Kind of thought it might be that way...
I do have a friend who does scuba diving so maybe he can get me headed in the right direction...
IF I decide on a pcp style airgun...
BCB
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Understand they do this for your safety...it's strapped to you, and it a bomb. I can attest that I and my group of guys were very reluctant with the first carbon tanks (lightweight was the allure), after they killed... They have evolved.
I'll err on the safe side always if I have to be around it. I'm sure your friend will be the same way,,, and will help you shop for a tank system. Lucky You!!! ;)
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I'll err on the safe side always if I have to be around it.
Quoted for what you should do. After 15 years, mine will not be used. It just isn't worth it the few bucks that it would save. When dealing with high pressure gases, safety should ALWAYS come first. Skimping on safety here is really inexcusable. BCB: note my quotes on safety factor above...
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need to move this to the pcp support equipment gate
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sorry mike, i didn't realize there was a gate for this.
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In general: every 5 years: hydro test. "Officially" dead after 15 years from date of manufacture. Any reputable place won't fill them without a valid hydro and you won't get a reputable place to hydro test a cylinder that is more than 15 years old. If you have a Shoebox or other compressor, you can fill them after that, but most usually fill to a reduced pressure for a seat of the pants "safety factor".
That was what the guy I know who is an RKI says is different about the 3442 steel tanks, the 15 year "death" does not exist with them. He says in the dive world some places people even refuse to hydro ANY aluminum tank, so apparently there is some variability within the industry ??
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In general: every 5 years: hydro test. "Officially" dead after 15 years from date of manufacture. Any reputable place won't fill them without a valid hydro and you won't get a reputable place to hydro test a cylinder that is more than 15 years old. If you have a Shoebox or other compressor, you can fill them after that, but most usually fill to a reduced pressure for a seat of the pants "safety factor".
That was what the guy I know who is an RKI says is different about the 3442 steel tanks, the 15 year "death" does not exist with them. He says in the dive world some places people even refuse to hydro ANY aluminum tank, so apparently there is some variability within the industry ??
Indeed. After some more reading>>>> it's because they are steel. As long as they are protected from corrosion, service life is practically, "lifetime". They are heavy though... ~34 lbs for an 80CF size and ~44 lbs for a 120CF size. Unfortunately, they only are rated to ~3500 psi. I rather enjoy the amount of air/fills I can get from a 4500 psi CF tank, along with it's very light weight. In any case, it's nice for folks to know about this option. One shoe size does not fit all...
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In general: every 5 years: hydro test. "Officially" dead after 15 years from date of manufacture. Any reputable place won't fill them without a valid hydro and you won't get a reputable place to hydro test a cylinder that is more than 15 years old. If you have a Shoebox or other compressor, you can fill them after that, but most usually fill to a reduced pressure for a seat of the pants "safety factor".
That was what the guy I know who is an RKI says is different about the 3442 steel tanks, the 15 year "death" does not exist with them. He says in the dive world some places people even refuse to hydro ANY aluminum tank, so apparently there is some variability within the industry ??
Indeed. After some more reading>>>> it's because they are steel. As long as they are protected from corrosion, service life is practically, "lifetime". They are heavy though... ~34 lbs for an 80CF size and ~44 lbs for a 120CF size. Unfortunately, they only are rated to ~3500 psi. I rather enjoy the amount of air/fills I can get from a 4500 psi CF tank, along with it's very light weight. In any case, it's nice for folks to know about this option. One shoe size does not fit all...
I like to learn new things :-)...even remember some, but they do offer a couple things to think about.
1. Resale value, as long as you take care of them they really seem to hold their value (based on say ebay prices)
2. For a 3k rifle like an Mrod they offer an option other than the 4500 psi carbon fiber tanks...but not nearly as "good".
The weight is apparently an ASSET to divers, or not a liability anyway...the steel 3442 apparently end up just a bit negative buoyancy empty...where aluminum are more negative buoyancy that you have to counter with lead on a weight belt ??
Bill
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Just a little off topic but concerning steel vs alum. tanks and diving. It's nice to have a light tank, and put more weight around your belt. Easier while ondeck.
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O.K…
I think I have sort of made my decision as to what I might be going to purchase…
A Benjamin Marauder, at least at this point in time…
I have access to scuba tanks, but I will need to know what else I need to purchase to be able to fill the Marauder with air from the scuba tank…
Are the fill ports (?) on the guns all the same? Or does each manufacturer make their own design…
I guess what I am saying is, if I get the proper connections to fill the Marauder, will those connections fill other pcp airguns?…
Thanks…BCB
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I guess what I am saying is, if I get the proper connections to fill the Marauder, will those connections fill other pcp airguns?…
Thanks…BCB
A lot of other guns use a different type connection, but most can be changed out with a Forster’s quick connect or use a adapter. Out of my seven pcp guns, five use something different.
If/when you have several guns, setting them all up to use Forster’s quick connect make filling them easier.
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Already thinking about #2 and #3??!! Ha!! Just ribbin'.
Foster fitting = win.
I converted my S410 to a Foster fitting and love not having to keep switching out to that adapter after having been filling my Marauder...
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I guess what I am saying is, if I get the proper connections to fill the Marauder, will those connections fill other pcp airguns?…
Thanks…BCB
A lot of other guns use a different type connection, but most can be changed out with a Forster’s quick connect or use a adapter. Out of my seven pcp guns, five use something different.
If/when you have several guns, setting them all up to use Forster’s quick connect make filling them easier.
So, does the Mrod come with the Forster set up and you change other pcp's to that quick connect. I assume it is the male end on the rifle...
Are gauges needed on the scuba tank, or is there one on the rifle that is used to indicate "full charge"...
Thanks again...BCB
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So, does the Mrod come with the Forster set up and you change other pcp's to that quick connect. I assume it is the male end on the rifle...
Are gauges needed on the scuba tank, or is there one on the rifle that is used to indicate "full charge"...
Thanks again...BCB
Mrod has a Forster fitting and yes male end on the rifle.
The gauges on all guns (some guns don’t even have gauges) are small and hard to read and are not marked very good. A bigger gauge on the fill adapter makes it easy and more accurate to read.
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cactusrat...
Thanks for the continuing help...
here is a link to an Air Venturi...
Is this what I am looking to need to fill the Mrod once I get the scuba tank?...
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-scuba-tank-yoke-k-valve-adapter-hose-assembly-1-8-bspp?a=534 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-scuba-tank-yoke-k-valve-adapter-hose-assembly-1-8-bspp?a=534)
Thanks again...BCB
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The regulator you get will depend on what type of tank/valve you get. The one you linked to will for for the typical SCUBA K valve. If you get a SCBA tank, it will almost certainly not use that valve (either a CGA for firefighters, or a DIN300).
Figure out what tank you are getting first, then get the fill equipment for that particular tank, and make sure that you can get your tank filled with the valve that you get.
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The regulator you get will depend on what type of tank/valve you get. The one you linked to will for for the typical SCUBA K valve. If you get a SCBA tank, it will almost certainly not use that valve (either a CGA for firefighters, or a DIN300).
Figure out what tank you are getting first, then get the fill equipment for that particular tank, and make sure that you can get your tank filled with the valve that you get.
O.K.
The guy that does the scuba diving is checking on a tank for me so I best wait until I see what he comes up with...
I suspect he would know, but I am in the "research mode" trying to get this project moving...
And to think, I thought an airgun was just an airgun...
Thanks...BCB
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If a gun takes 3000 psi to fill and the tank only has 3000 psi in it, then you only get one (1) 3000 psi fill.
Glenn this is the part that makes my head hurt. How does an 80 cubic foot tank only fill a 122 cc cylinder to 3000psi once?
I guess that's why I dropped out of med school all that math and science messed with my head LOL.
Will
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The 88cf tank contains 88 cubic feet of volume of air. That's a lotta air! You're only filling a cylinder of 122 cubic centimeters volume. That's not.
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You may get some fills near 3k PSI, but it will drop very quickly. This is why the 4.5k psi tanks will give you many more fills for the same capacity tank.
The larger the tank, the slower the drop in pressure will be, but it will still drop as you remove gas molecules from the inside of the tank.
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Here are some fill station options we manufacture for Scuba tanks.
http://www.ninjapaintball.com/newfillstations.html (http://www.ninjapaintball.com/newfillstations.html)
The NINJA003 is designed to be used with a K-Valve
The NINJA004 is designed to be used with a DIN 300 valve.
The PA scuba tank fill station link above is made by us. USA Made product. They added on their own microbore hose to the yoke adapter.
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Just a little off topic but concerning steel vs alum. tanks and diving. It's nice to have a light tank, and put more weight around your belt. Easier while ondeck.
I believe the weights of equal cf aluminum and steel tanks are pretty close, but the steel HP tank of equal capacity is noticeably smaller. My 100cf steel is about the same size as an 80cf aluminum. Steel also stands up better to repeated fill cycles over time. Aluminum certainly has the price advantage, although buying a used steel may make more sense than a new aluminum.
Steel. Try it...you'll like it! :D
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Just a little off topic but concerning steel vs alum. tanks and diving. It's nice to have a light tank, and put more weight around your belt. Easier while ondeck.
I believe the weights of equal cf aluminum and steel tanks are pretty close, but the steel HP tank of equal capacity is noticeably smaller. My 100cf steel is about the same size as an 80cf aluminum. Steel also stands up better to repeated fill cycles over time. Aluminum certainly has the price advantage, although buying a used steel may make more sense than a new aluminum.
Steel. Try it...you'll like it! :D
I just read a post on another forum about an oxygen cylinder that was still in use, and had been hydro tested over and over again, with an original test date of 1909. It was still a good cyl but they set it aside and retired it as a souvenir. 100 years of service is pretty good :-). The valve had been replaced multiple times.
Bill
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Can anyone tell me what is used on the mrod Forster fitting to tube end ie the black rubbery stuff on fitting
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Can anyone tell me what is used on the mrod Forster fitting to tube end ie the black rubbery stuff on fitting
I f I am understanding correctly, that would be thread sealing tape, many use yellow gasline sealing tape, or the regular white teflon tape.
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"He said some places will not hydro aluminum tanks"
I don't think so! Why would they not hydro? Tanks don't explode under hydro testing. They either pass or fail. I would guess that 90+% of scuba tanks these days are aluminum. They also have a pretty much unlimited life of 10,000 fill cycles (as far as I know) with proper inspections and hydros. The is one exception- Tanks were made for a shot time using 6351 alloy. This alloy has been shown to develop stress cracks.
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Pressured air vessels don't typically explode. They develop stress fractures and leak. During hydro tests, they are filled to a preset pressure while under water. The tester looks for tell tail air bubbles just like the guy at the tire shop checks for leaks.
Visual testing is required once a year. The tester removes the valve and visually checks the inside of the tank for corrosion and defects.
The thought of a tank being aluminum makes one think lightweight.... nope, aluminum tanks are heavy and cumbersome. I use a modified golf bag cart to carry mine. Scuba tanks are often rated at 3300 psi. I have a 100cf and an 80cf, both rated at 3300 psi.
Scuba tanks do not have a shelf life.... as long as they pass testing.
In order to have a scuba tank filled with breathable air you need to be a certified diver. If not, a label will be placed on your tank stating that the tank must not be used for diving.
If a tank has 3000 psi you will not fill a gun to 3000. The reason being... the 3k pressure is by volume. Once you connect to the gun, you increase the volume which lowers the overall psi by the amount of the gun tube and the fill hose volumes. Bleeding the hose is nothing but wasted air volume thus dropping the psi. In order to calculate the number of fills per tank you will also need to add the volume of the fill hose to each fill.
FYI.... Figure the volume of your fill hose. Determine how many hose volumes would make up one gun tube volume. You will lose one full gun tube fill everytime you reach that number of fills just by bleeding the hose.
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"During hydro tests, they are filled to a preset pressure while under water. The tester looks for tell tail air bubbles just like the guy at the tire shop checks for leaks."
WRONG!!!! The tanks are filled with WATER, and sealed in a water filled chamber. The tank is then pressurized with WATER, and the amount of stretch in the tank is measured by how much water it displaces in the outer chamber.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVYeFPhX1OE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVYeFPhX1OE)
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"During hydro tests, they are filled to a preset pressure while under water. The tester looks for tell tail air bubbles just like the guy at the tire shop checks for leaks."
WRONG!!!! The tanks are filled with WATER, and sealed in a water filled chamber. The tank is then pressurized with WATER, and the amount of stretch in the tank is measured by how much water it displaces in the outer chamber.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVYeFPhX1OE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVYeFPhX1OE)
I can't see the video here at work... it is blocked but, this is true with aluminum scuba and scba tanks? If so, I apologize for misinformation. I may have misunderstood Mr. George Perez from SeaDivers scuba shop in Ozark, Alabama.
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What noone has adressed is this: Actual pressure after store filling!!!!!
Most stores fill rather quick and temperature will rise a lot during.
When temperature drops to ambient then pressure will drop also.
I had a store that did hot fills and when i fetched my 4500psi bottle i was lucky to get 4200psi.
Even more important if you only get a 3000psi fill and it drops 150-200psi even before you can use any.
So be avare and ask them about this before getting the wool pulled over your eyes ;-)
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The afore mentioned Mr. Perez would fill my tanks submerged in water.
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The afore mentioned Mr. Perez would fill my tanks submerged in water.
Yep! That's to cool them to minimize the later pressure drop. Slower fills and cooling will help with that. Some shops will, if you can, have you leave the tank overnight and top it off in the morning.