GTA
Target Shooting Matches, Discussion & Events => Target Shooting Discussion Gate => Topic started by: sperho on June 25, 2013, 12:47:11 AM
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I'm pondering a match grade 10 m PCP rifle. I haven't decided yet if I want how deep I want to go, but I don't want to buy something that I'm going to replace in a year. I'm probably willing to spend about $1500 and used is certainly an option. I'd like something that weighs at least 9 lbs. I'd probably be willing to go deep if I had a club nearby for competition, but alas, I don't; GTA is where I "compete" :) and I do it to try to master a skill. I'm mostly interested in using the best possible tool that I can afford without getting in over my head. By over my head, a precision 10 m air rifle has so many adjustments that without a coach, I may get lost. Guns that I'm looking at loosely are in the Walther LG300 or FWB 700 Basic class, something with excellent precision, but not so many adjustments that I get dizzy. I'd consider the Crosman Challenger PCP, but it's on the light side and I don't want to attempt to make it heavy.
As far as skill level, I know I have a long ways to go before I'd feel like truly competent 10 m shooter. Right now I'm shooting a springer (TX200) and I'm shooting an average of ~0.5" CTC groups with the occasional "stupid" and self-recognized mistake that produces a flier (a long ways before going to the Olympics! Ha...) and I know the gun is capable of at least 0.2" groups at 10 m. So until things tighten up a little, I'm only contemplating. I just thought I'd start doing some research...
10 m rifle people, please let me know what you think.
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Sounding like your looking / wanting PCP ?
Some mighty fine old school springers also to be had such as FWB 300's, Diana 75's, Walther to name a few of more notable ;)
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I'd consider an FWB300, but I'm strongly leaning toward PCP. Less stressed moving parts and air isn't a problem.
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Like all the others, I would recommend the FWB 300S or the Diana 75 T01. I have the Diana 75 and have shot it for almost 30 years. I still LOVE it and it still shoots better than I do. On sand bags, mine will shoot a ragged hole all day at 10 m.
Right now I'm shooting a springer (TX200) and I'm shooting an average of ~0.5" CTC groups with the occasional "stupid" and self-recognized mistake that produces a flier (a long ways before going to the Olympics! Ha...) and I know the gun is capable of at least 0.2" groups at 10 m.
I'm assuming that's from a rest? What kind of shooting are you planning on doing at 10 m? If you mean standard (standing) 10m shooting, then I would think a recoiless spring gun as mentioned above would be all you might ever need. My 75 prints a hole wherever I was aiming when the shot went off, and that's about all that counts.
Lou
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Like all the others, I would recommend the FWB 300S or the Diana 75 T01. I have the Diana 75 and have shot it for almost 30 years. I still LOVE it and it still shoots better than I do. On sand bags, mine will shoot a ragged hole all day at 10 m.
Right now I'm shooting a springer (TX200) and I'm shooting an average of ~0.5" CTC groups with the occasional "stupid" and self-recognized mistake that produces a flier (a long ways before going to the Olympics! Ha...) and I know the gun is capable of at least 0.2" groups at 10 m.
I'm assuming that's from a rest? What kind of shooting are you planning on doing at 10 m?
The 0.5" groups are standing/offhand/unsupported. I want a rifle dedicated for 10m shooting. I'm wondering: why not PCP?
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Go for the Gusto! :D
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Define gusto... From my reading, I understand that PCP are preferred in top level competition today because they require a bit less physical work required from the shooter and faster lock times and barrel exit times. The FWB300 and the like (match grade springers) were supplanted for a reason. What were the reasons and my general question, are those reasons relevant to me?
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Simply, the PCP powerplant eliminates any chance of movement that a spring powerplant could introduce. Power can also be dialed up, or in, more precisely with PCP.
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@Spencer
The spring match rifles were replaced by the SSP rifles because of lock time and vibration. With the SSP you do not have the time when the spring unloads and pushes the piston, nor the mass and movement of the piston and spring. The SSP was later replaced by the CO2 then CA rifles, to eliminate the physical effort to charge the rifle. FYI, in the match rifle world, the PCP is called Compressed Air (CA), same thing just different words.
And yes these factors are as relevant to you as they were to the competitors of the time. You may not shoot their scores, but it will be easier to shoot better scores with a CA rifle than a spring match rifle. I have both a FWB-300-mini and a FWB-P70-Jr, and the P70 is much easier to shoot.
Go to www.targettalk.org (http://www.targettalk.org) and into the "olympic rifle" and "buy,sell,trade" sections.
What you are looking for is a tier-1 10m PRECISION CLASS match air rifle by FWB, Walther, Anschutz, Styer, Hammerli.
The Challenger is a sportster class rifle, and is not up to the level of any of the precision class rifles.
Rifles like the TAU-200 and AR2048 are technically precision class, but not up to the accuracy of the tier-1 rifles. I call these the tier-2 rifles.
If you don't want to hassle with stock adjustments, and as you said it can be quite a job to get the rifle fitted to you, the best bet is a wood/laminate stock.
Any of the major brands is good. What you are looking for at that level of the game is fit and comfort.
The only way to keep to your $1,500 budget is to buy used. Those rifles go for up to and over $3,000 new. The good thing is most 10m AR shooters take very good care of their gear. Something like a used Anschutz CA2002 or FWB-P70 would fit your budget.
BTW these rifles will tip the scale at just under the 11 pound max limit of the rules.
To shoot these rifles in the standing position, I recommend that you wear a shooting jacket or a backbelt (Home Depot) to protect your lower back. Without a shooting jacket, holding an 11 pound rifle in the standing position can be hard on your lower back, especially if you hurt your back any time in the past. The back belt is a cheap way to protect your lower back, the shooting jackets can get expensive, especially if you have a changing waistline (like me).
An alternative is the lighter junior rifles, like the FWB-P70-Jr that I shoot.
The junior rifles are a bit lighter so it isn't as hard on your lower back, and the minimum LoP is shorter than the full size match rifles. The LoP is more of an issue if you are short (like me). The LoP on my P70-Jr is adjusted down to 11-3/4 inches.
Got any more questions, just ask.
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More misc stuff:
Get one of these 2 books
- Ways of the Rifle
- Air Rifle Shooting
http://www.pilkguns.com/books.shtml (http://www.pilkguns.com/books.shtml)
These are NOT cheap books, but the info in them is fantastic.
If you only get one book, then get "Air Rifle Shooting."
You may want some accessories:
- rifle stand; you rest the rifle on it between shots - http://www.champchoice.com/cat-Offhand_Stands_-_Air-719.aspx (http://www.champchoice.com/cat-Offhand_Stands_-_Air-719.aspx)
- - There is a shelf that is attached to the stand to hold your pellet box.
- - This is a worthwhile accessory to have, it reduces the strain on your arm between shots.
- spotting scope and stand
- - Saves walking to the target or retrieving the target after each shot.
- Shooting outfit; jacket, pants and boots (note ISSF and NRA have different rules on the outfit)
- - Jacket; if you don't use a jacket, at least use a back belt. (note the back belt is not allowed in competitions)
- - Boots; the main thing is the boot or shoe that you wear MUST have a FLAT bottom. If it curves, you WILL rock and that will negatively affect your stability and scores. I've seen juniors shooting bare feet, because they have more stability than with their sport shoes.
- - This outfit can be expensive, so best if your waistline is stable, so you don't have to replace it.
- - Because AR is not my primary focus, I do not have the shooting outfit. I use a back belt and a pair of shoes where the sole is NOT worn down.
- Shooting glove, for the support hand - http://www.champchoice.com/cat-Gloves-366.aspx (http://www.champchoice.com/cat-Gloves-366.aspx)
- - This is the one that I have - http://www.champchoice.com/prod-CC_DELUXE_SUMMER_GLOVE___BLACK_RED_WHITE___MED___FOR_RIGHT_HANDED_SHOOTER-2536.aspx (http://www.champchoice.com/prod-CC_DELUXE_SUMMER_GLOVE___BLACK_RED_WHITE___MED___FOR_RIGHT_HANDED_SHOOTER-2536.aspx)
- - You can use an old ski glove as a substitute. The purpose is to pad your knuckles from the weight of the rifle (if you rest your rifle on your knuckles) or to isolate your pulse from the rifle (if you rest the rifle on your palm).
- - I rest my rifle on my knuckles, and the first time when I shot w/o a glove, my knuckles hurt for a week.
- Pellet box - http://www.champchoice.com/prod-CHAMPION_S_CHOICE_PELLET_MATCH_BOX-1752.aspx (http://www.champchoice.com/prod-CHAMPION_S_CHOICE_PELLET_MATCH_BOX-1752.aspx)
- - The arrangement of the individual pellets helps you to keep track of your shooting.
- - It sits on a shelf on the rifle stand.
- Notebook to keep track of your shooting.
- Ear plugs. I use ear plugs when I shoot AR and muffs when I shoot AP. I would use a muff for AR but the ear cup gets in the way of the stock.
- Front sight inserts
- - There is no one best insert size. You will have to determine which size is best for you on a particular day, which is why it is good to get a set. Some people use the expensive adjustable front iris in place of individual inserts.
- - The inserts/adjustable iris depends on the rifle, so you have to get this after you get the rifle. FWB has a 22mm front sight, Anschutz has a 16 or 18mm front sight.
- - There are different styles, I happen to prefer clear plastic inserts, other people prefer metal insert with the horizontal bar. The horizontal bar is used as a visual reference to determine if you are canting the rifle, and how much you are canting the rifle.
- Set of metric hex keys. Used to install the sights and make stock adjustments.
- Timer. To keep track of the remaining time in the match. In competition use, this can be a kitchen timer with the speaker disabled/disconnected. For home use, you can leave the speaker active.
Other stuff:
- I ALWAYS separate my sights from the rifle, and store the sights in their own padded box. The sights are easily damaged when on the rifle.
- The selection of the size of the front sight insert depends on several factors and there are several different schools of thought. The easiest is "wobble." I select the diameter of the insert that will keep the bull inside the aperture "most of the time." What this means is I will change the insert based on how much I am wobbling on a particular day. On a good day when I'm more steady, a smaller insert. On a bad day when I am wobbling more, a larger insert. Hence the need for multiple inserts.
- Make a blinder for your non-aiming eye. This is simply a piece of cardboard with a hole in it to fit over the base of the rear iris. It blocks the forward vision of your non-aiming eye, so you do not have to close that eye when you aim. Keeping the eye open aids balance and eliminates the stress in your face from holding the eye close.
- I found that I do not need an adjustable rear iris. It ends up that my adjustable rear iris is at the same setting as a standard iris. If you shoot in vastly different lighting, then an adjustable iris could help. Open it up for dim light condition, close it down in full sunlight.
gud luk in your journey into the world of 10m AR.
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A Crosman challenger isn't an olympic level air rifle, but if you miss the 10 ring it is on you. I am amazed at the scores some of the top juniors post using the Challenger. It is definitely a great option to start shooting 10m without spending the cost of a used car.
Jimro
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Thanks for the great information ac... That is what I was looking for in terms of a reference point. Sometimes one just doesn't really know where to start in their information quest (part of the fun of hobbies for me is the research, but it's more fun when there is a benchmark). I'll continue to shoot the guns I have and simply work on technique while taking my time with research and deciding what I want to do.
Jimro - the Challenger is a nice entry model. I may consider it, but as I mentioned in my first post, it's a little lighter than I prefer for 10 m offhand. Then there's that habit of mine: when I really like doing something that involves equipment and I see that it could be a part of my life for a long time, I try to buy the best quality that I can afford. I'm just wired like that be it for work or play. I think it would be a great and affordable rifle for 3P shooting though, which I haven't explored yet.
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Used CA rifles pop up on the TargetTalk forum on a regular basis, so keep an eye out.
Like any place, some are great deals, others less so.
When you first shoot a precision AR, the trigger will amaze you.
Unlike sportster class which has a 1.5 pound min trigger weight, precision class has no minimum trigger weight, so it can be single digit LOW. So be VERY careful until you get the hang of it. It is the proverbial hair pin trigger.
BTW, if you buy used, you need to carefully inspect the pistol grip. A know problem area for match ARs that are transported/shipped is the pistol grip, because of how the grain in the wood runs. Sometimes it will be a green facture, other times a complete break. A repaired stock is fine. But if it is broken w/o a repair, that repair will cost $$ and time to do.
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Here's about where I am now, for the proverbial record. These were shot this evening with an Air Arms S410, which I'm a bit more wobbly on than the TX200, but with which, I shoot a little better than the TX. Although I'm a bit more wobbly with the S410, when I squeeze off the shot as the POA passes near/over the bull, the pellet goes where I think it should. With the TX, it's always a little bit of a &^^& shoot, which I attribute to lock time and recoil uncertainty.
I'm wearing a back brace as per ac12's recommendation to me several weeks ago. Although I'm shooting a .22 cal, for the ISSF target, I scored it using the .177 ring of an Eagle Eye scoring gauge. The ISSF target was shot after I had shot 60 rounds into Gamo targets. I find that I am most stable between 20 and 60 shots, though I was able to retain some stability for the 15 shots that went into this target. The first target of the evening is always a bit wild while I gain my composure. At only 85% on the ISSF target (first time I ever shot it was tonight), maybe I don't deserve a dedicated 10 m rifle?
The Gamo scale target (the one used for the GTA informal matches), I'm averaging around 195 right now with the TX. With the S410, I tend to pick up a point or two and this particular target was 98.5% (scored with the .22 cal ring on the scoring gauge as per usual for the GTA matches) with a score of 197. In a previous post in this thread, I stated that I shoot about 0.5" CTC groups offhand (with the occasional mistake excepted), but that was an estimate from my scores, so I shot a 10 shot group on this target just to see if I could put the holes where my mouth was. Turns out I exaggerated slightly. Throwing out the "mistake", this was a 0.553" CTC group as per On Target software measurement. The "mistake" shot is actually hidden by the text generated in On Target with the group measurement information.
I certainly have some room to improve...
(click on images to enlarge)
(http://redboston.com/miscfora/10m_S410_ISSF_6-25-13.jpg)
(http://redboston.com/miscfora/10m_S410_Gamo_with%2010%20shot%20group_6-25-13_analyzed.jpg)
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Hey Spencer,
Don't sweat it, you are doing just fine.
A 10m match rifle should only improve your scores.
You never saw my first 10m AR target. It looked like a shotgun pattern. I had shots out side the #1 ring :-[
It took coaching to get me to the point where I could even hold the black.
My best score was:
- AR30 = 256/300 = 85.3%
- AR40 = 335/400 = 83.8%
You are shooting better than me, and you are not using a match rifle.
BTW, if you know your first 15 shots are not the best. You should use the first 15 shots as sighters/warm up shots. And then start shooting for score from shot 20.
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Thanks for the encouragement ac. It's hard to know sometimes how one is doing whilst in a shooting vacuum! I'll keep plugging away...
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As mentioned in the journal thread, I keep track of my scores over time.
That way I can see IF I am improving (I should), stalling, or degrading (I hope not).
It is also nice to see how far I have progressed over time.
One thing, to be aware of is the progression curve.
In the beginning it is easy to make improvements (5 and 10 point improvements), as you get better it becomes harder and harder to get each additional point. That is when the little things make a difference.
At 85% you are up there on the curve.
In AP, above 85% I was fighting for each additional point, till I cracked 90%. Above 90% each point was even harder.
Maybe we can make a new 10m AR match using regulation 10m targets.
Maybe a 20 shot AR20 format.
Not as difficult as a AR40 or AR60 format.
BUT FIRST, I need to get my butt in gear and shoot my AP again.
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BTW, if you know your first 15 shots are not the best. You should use the first 15 shots as sighters/warm up shots. And then start shooting for score from shot 20.
That's exactly what I do... The first target is only used to determine how long it's taking me to warm up. Sometimes it's 5 shots, usually it's 10 to 15...
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One thing, to be aware of is the progression curve.
In the beginning it is easy to make improvements (5 and 10 point improvements), as you get better it becomes harder and harder to get each additional point. That is when the little things make a difference.
At 85% you are up there on the curve.
In AP, above 85% I was fighting for each additional point, till I cracked 90%. Above 90% each point was even harder.
I'm definitely on a plateau. I've been stuck at the mid 190s for several weeks now on the GTA 10 m target. I think that I'm well into the mental and form-tweaking aspects now...
Maybe we can make a new 10m AR match using regulation 10m targets.
Maybe a 20 shot AR20 format.
Not as difficult as a AR40 or AR60 format.
I would love that. It would could be called the 10 m Equalizer Match, so folks who were interested in seeing where they were relative to other ISSF target shooters, would be able to strive to do so here on the GTA. I'm eyeing that 10 m silhouette match that is in the testing phase now as well. I've never shot silhouette before - it seems to be an interesting challenge as well. Those animals are small and it all or nothing!
http://www.onlinesilhouetteshoot.com/ (http://www.onlinesilhouetteshoot.com/) (found it on the Yellow last night)
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Maybe we can make a new 10m AR match using regulation 10m targets.
Maybe a 20 shot AR20 format.
Not as difficult as a AR40 or AR60 format.
I'd love to see a regulation 10m AR match here. First, I have been trying to catch Sperho for the last several weeks in the GTA 10 m rifle, but haven't gotten there. Second, I have wanted a top tier competition rifle forever, but I am making do with most of my equipment and space limitations. I'm not about to invest in all of the equipment to support a PCP on top of the price of a Feinwerkbau. I have taken apart my MC Super several times in an attemt to diagnose its failings and have about given up on it. But 10 meter standing is the type of event I like the most.
Fortunately, my basement range stretches to 10 meters, but not a decimeter more. I would hope that match rules (here anyway) would permit scopes and not be limited to diopter or iron sights. I may have a tx200 on the way, once back order issues can be resolved.
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@Arjuna
Watch how you say it. This stuff gets tricky.
"I'd love to see a regulation 10m AR match here."
This means diopter sights, no scope.
Full shooting outfit allowed.
What you probably meant was, "10m AR match using regulation 10m AR targets."
What is probably a better match for GTA is a match from the old "High Noon Postal Match" called AR-REQ-30.
The general rules were:
- standard 10m AR, except as follows
- 30 shots
- Standard "street/sport clothes"
- NO shooting outfit allowed (jacket, pants, boots)
- Only shooting gloves allowed
Cutting it down to 20 shots would probably better match for GTA, making it AR-REQ-20
Sights could be open (diopters, red-dot, scope), but you have to declare the sight used, so when the results are posted, you can compare like to like.
To avoid the logistics of CA/PCP, you could get a SSP rifle like the Anschutz 2002 Super Air, or FWB-601
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"I'd love to see a regulation 10m AR match here."
This sounds fun, but then I would have to find targets that make a clean hole again. I missed last weeks 10 m competition as they were remodeling the 10 meter range where I shoot for the Sooner State Games, and this week I go on vacation. I too have been looking at good 10 meter rifles and I don't know why Daisy won't just put a better trigger on there 10 meter rifles, that would solve everything for me.
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Kelly,
Get commercial 10m AR targets, and tape it to a stiff piece of cardboard, and use wadcutters. I get nice holes with that setup.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/172394/nra-official-air-rifle-target-ar-5-5-10-meter-air-rifle-paper-package-of-100 (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/172394/nra-official-air-rifle-target-ar-5-5-10-meter-air-rifle-paper-package-of-100)
http://www.straightshooters.com/ss-33-10-meter-5-on-rifle-targets.html (http://www.straightshooters.com/ss-33-10-meter-5-on-rifle-targets.html)
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/723452/nra-official-air-rifle-target-ar-5-10-10-meter-air-rifle-paper-package-of-100 (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/723452/nra-official-air-rifle-target-ar-5-10-10-meter-air-rifle-paper-package-of-100)
Have you done the trigger mods to your 953?
It is well documented and a pretty easy DIY.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=39648.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=39648.0)
While it won't give you a full on match trigger, it is pretty decent and a LOT better than the stock trigger.
One of the mods (the adjustable sear engagement) is actually standard in the 888/887 rifles. And it can be retrofitted to the x53 rifles, including the 953, which is what I recommend in the link above.
The biggest thing that Daisy can do, and what I'm puzzled they don't do is to simply "finish" or at least deburr the bearing surface of the trigger sear and the hammer. That that one simple change will give a tremendous improvement to the trigger. It is a pitty that that has become probably the #1 after sale target fix for the rifles. Even so, if you want a smooth trigger pull, you will still want to polish the sear to make the pull as smooth as you can.
The x53 and 88x rifles were made with the idea of low cost to give access to a lot of shooters as part of the sportster program. So one of their goals is low manufacturing cost. It appears that they have given the high end of the sportster rifles to Crosman (Challenger 2009) and AF (Edge). But if Daisy is sharp they will be taking apart both the Crosman Challenger 2009 and AF Edge to see what ideas and improvements they can make to their rifles, and the trigger has to be one of them.
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ac12,
Yeah I did the trigger mod and while it is better it is nowhere near the trigger of the T05 on my 34. I wish I could have that trigger on my 953.
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@Kelrod
Yup the trigger is what it is.
If I want a better trigger, I switch rifles to one of my match rifles.
Here is the puzzle. The IZH-60/61 have a GREAT trigger, and those rifles are about $120. That has been the puzzle for me. How do the Russians put such a good trigger into a rifle at that price point?
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This is pretty unorthodox, but i wanted to experiment with how the chassis of a rifle alone could impact shooting performance for myself.
The 753 in stock form is a pretty dismal fit for me......and it's feather light. I have very long arms and long fingers.
Long story, short......I could shoot low 80's at best with the stock 753 and the trigger mods, and routinely hit the low 90's (up to 95) with the modified chassis. My best 30 was 280, with a fair amount coming close to that. The extra weight was helpful, but the fit of the rifle helped tremendously to keep me steady. I can close my eyes, shoulder the rifle.......and when I open them, the front and rear sights will be in perfect alignment for me every time.......with a great shoulder and cheek weld. I don't have to strain in any way, and I can shoot very upright with the sight coming right to my eye. I do shoot with a bit of cant, and I milled the pump handle to fit between the 1st and 2nd knuckle of my fisted hand at the proper cant. It looks a little funky, but it answered a lot of questions for me about what shooting improvements could be had with a rifle that was comfortable to hold. It now weighs around 10 lbs and balances on my front hand nicely.
I clamped the rifle in the vise of my mill and pointed it out the shop door to a trap at 10m and fired every brand of pellet I could find.
JSB Match Diabolo Lights would hold .020"-.030" c to c over 5 shot strings consistently. The next closest was a H&N match pistol, but they were opened way up at around .175" if i remember correctly......and the rest just got worse from there. This thing only shoots at 480fps with the JSB's, and falls to 450 or less with anything else. I live at about 5700', so it doesn't get much of a charge with the thin air.
I replaced the Gamo $)((# rear sight with the Air Force rear sight. That gave me a ton more consistency. I could chase the Gamo all over sometimes, and finally figured out it had a bind in both windage and elevation......and merely pumping the rifle could sometimes jar it past the bind and change the settings all at once. I turned a range of new rear sight peeps with holes from .5mm to 1.5mm out of aluminum. The original Air Force plastic one was not even round. These look identical to the Gamo aluminum peep, but with the different thread. I shoot in a bunch of different lighting settings, and they have come in handy. i use the rubber shade from the Gamo.
The trigger is still &^^&.
I actually had a pretty good time building it.
Overall, it's definitely not a match rifle.....but it is a lot better for me than the plain 753. I'm now convinced of the merits of a very adjustable rifle that can be made to fit.
I'm just beginning to shoot again after a lengthy break, and I'm enjoying it.
Mike
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WOW Mike
That is COOL.
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Thanks
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Re rifle choice, I have a high end PCP match rifle as well as many match springers. I have found that there is a small advantage to the PCP, but the match springer teaches you to follow through after the shot breaks, a lesson that is required for good PCP scores also.
As previously mentioned the feinwerkbau 602/ 603 single stroke pneumatic is also an excellent rifle and can be found for $500 to $1200 for the 603.
I have shot some excellent 5 shot offhand groups with all my rifles, even my old feinwerkbau 150. As far as match springers go, in my opinion the finest ever made is the anschutz lg 380, shoot one back to back with a feinwerkbau 300s and you will see what I mean.
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http://www.crosman.com/airguns/rifles/pcp/CH2009S (http://www.crosman.com/airguns/rifles/pcp/CH2009S)
Crosman single shot PCP
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@Frank
The Crosman Challenger 2009 has been displacing the Daisy co2 rifles in sporster competition.
I do not know the reason, for the change from Daisy to Crosman. My gut feel is it must be easier to shoot better scores with the Crosman Challenger 2009 than the Daisy/Avaniti 888/887. If you are shooting higher levels of competition, an additional few points can make a difference.
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Re rifle choice, I have a high end PCP match rifle as well as many match springers. I have found that there is a small advantage to the PCP, but the match springer teaches you to follow through after the shot breaks, a lesson that is required for good PCP scores also.
As previously mentioned the feinwerkbau 602/ 603 single stroke pneumatic is also an excellent rifle and can be found for $500 to $1200 for the 603.
I have shot some excellent 5 shot offhand groups with all my rifles, even my old feinwerkbau 150. As far as match springers go, in my opinion the finest ever made is the anschutz lg 380, shoot one back to back with a feinwerkbau 300s and you will see what I mean.
I think I'd be happy with a 603 or a P70 or, or, or or..... When I make up my mind, I'll probably look for last gen PCPs or a nice 603 or the like. However, I'm biased toward something that is newer, for parts availability in the future. I did a little research on the 380 and I understand that Anschutz isn't supporting them any more (not surprisingly). Point is, I'm set up for PCP and want the best I can/want to afford at the time I decide to pull the trigger, be it SSP or PCP (or if I find a steal of a deal on an old match springer). All of these guns (including the non-match rifles I own) can shoot better than I can anyway! I just went through a slump of lower than usual scores due to what I discovered to be poor cheek weld and that took me a week to figure out... I have a long way to go before I have the fundamentals down. and feel that I've earned the right to move to a nice target rifle... :)
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It's always nice to have the best equipment, I fully agree, and Feinwerkbau support on parts is excellent .
PCP 10M match rifles are a joy to own and shoot, you will not be disappointed.
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Aaaah......just get the new rifle now. The fundamentals will progress anyway, and you'll just be happier in the meantime. ;D
Mike
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Aaaah......just get the new rifle now. The fundamentals will progress anyway, and you'll just be happier in the meantime. ;D
Mike
. Enabler! Must...save...pennies (and not look at targettalk classifieds in the meantime!)...