GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Weihrauch Airguns => Topic started by: Trigger man on April 18, 2013, 10:53:48 AM
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Nice looking, but unimpressed with both the very stiff cocking (unusually tight breach pivot), and mild but audible ratcheting sound (as though the spring was rubbing against something internally during cocking). Undecided whether to return it... or open the tool box.
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those rifles are kinda stiff out of the box to begin with like most new springer's are! and yes the the factory spring has something to be diesered and it will be twangy and buzzy you can count on it! and their usually over lubed in the piston area and have lube out in front of the piston seal as well! typical HW gun! if I were you I'd shoot the rifle and check it for accuracy and mechanics and if all is well I'd open it up clean it out re lube it correctly or just do a complete tune on it and be happy! you'll be happy you did! JMO :P
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Hmmm, I bet that gun shoots like a dream though. My Diana 56TH rachets like a hand cranked winch but shoots like a tack driver! Just have to get use to it I guess.
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1000 shots and you wont part with it . where is the photos? german posts no photos you buy the lager for the house haha
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where is the photos?
(http://i45.tinypic.com/2zjcebr.jpg)
... Just have to get use to it I guess.
Not a chance... I don't shoot weapons in the condition this one was in... and didn't.
(http://i45.tinypic.com/w1bhw.jpg)
Breach pivot screw was extremely tight (yes, I first removed the lock nut). Internally,.. thick wheel bearing grease e-v-e-r-y-w-h-e-r-e. Reminded me of a old WW2 piece I cleaned last year that was packed in sticky cosmoline. Great for storage... lousy for smooth operation.
I plan to coat most of the internals with a very light coating of oil to inhibit rust. Then a tiny dab of Dri-Slide EP around the circumference of the piston seal. The piston seal has a couple of questionable areas that was rough - probably due to careless piston installation and raking it over sharp edges of the tube's cutouts. I've already ordered a fresh seal and replacement spring, but will reassemble and test it this time.
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Glad you decided to open the toolbox instead. ;)
That's going to be a SWEET shooter when you get through with it!
Always wanted an R9 in .177.
What caliber is yours?
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That's a very very nice looking rifle...
Is an HW95 an updated version of the HW80..??
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What caliber is yours?
.22
Not to be overly critical of Weihrauch, but I'm not impressed with the machining of this example. Perhaps it's my picky nature, but IMO, this isn't representative of $400 worth of German manufacturing....
Course machining evident on both pivot tabs. This is typical of dull and/or worn out tooling or broach cutter
(http://i48.tinypic.com/102o56v.jpg)
The red arrows show holes with sharply raised edges protruding internally - a.k.a. 'seal eaters'. Likely why the piston seal has noticeable damaged areas, as previously mentioned. Obviously, I need to chamfer these before reassembly.
(http://i49.tinypic.com/zoayjl.jpg)
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Those are great closeups of the trouble areas. What's your plan of attack to chamfer those holes and cutouts?
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glad you opened her up its obvious you know what to look for as far as burr's {etc} deburr the tube and polish the piston, leave the fork area alone the shims will keep anything from rubbing ;D :P
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What's your plan of attack to chamfer those holes and cutouts?
The holes are .235" (5.97mm) so I'll probably just touch'em up with a slightly larger ball stone (.375" OD maybe) chucked in my drill press.
I was reading one of Steve Pope's tune-ups last week, he mentioned using a Sunnen hone. I have one, but not sure yet what stones I have. The cylinder looks excellent, so I'd only touch-up the rear half. We'll see.
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... leave the fork area alone the shims will keep anything from rubbing ;D :P
Yes, I'm not setup right now to tackle those uglies, maybe later this summer when I get caught-up with other, more important necessities. I have major modifications planned for this beast, so will consider a fix then if it proves troublesome.
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if you need help just ask! ;D :P
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Considering you spend $400 on a German piece like this..those problems should not even exist :( Sad how quality of workmanship is declining in most industries. Good luck with getting everything smooth and up and running! I know it will turn out to be a shooter...the barrels on these guns are great!
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don't go any higher or lower than 400grt and you just want to remove the burr' s, :P
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Considering you spend $400 on a German piece like this..those problems should not even exist :( Sad how quality of workmanship is declining in most industries.
You're right...
You know, in the past I have seen the innards of a few air rifles - some mine and others were not, but overall, no matter whether they were German, Russian, British, American, Spanish or whatever, I can't believe, as a generally observation, that they are getting more powerful but less in "quality of finish", and especially where it really matters, like in and around the piston and seal(s) and the triggers. In the past,, as in 20 or 30+ years ago, I have opened a good handful of airguns and never really seen things that make me want to grind my teeth, like metallic burs and rough edges that end up grinding themselves and/or other bits and pieces to death over a short period of time. In the past 10 years or less, it almost seems mandatory that they don't think of "doing it right" at the factory anymore in at least "some" of their prized products.
Is this the outright price that we pay for mass production and a cheaper product and end up getting a "cheap" and sometimes "nasty" product as a result..??
This reply is not aimed at this thread - more a general observation only...
That's still a beautiful rifle...
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Well, tonight I discovered another reason why cocking was so tight, in addition to the ridiculously overtightened breach/barrel pivot bolt...
After deburring the cylinder's internal uglies, I grabbed the piston and carefully removed the piston seal, and slide it naked into the bore to check clearances. All but 3/8" of the rear of the piston slid smoothly into the bore, then it started getting tight. I added a little muscle and manged to push the piston about midway, but decided to quit because it probably exceeded 12-15 pounds pressure to continue moving it... so I backed it out and mic'ed the piston along its length.
As suspected, the piston isn't concentric - by a disturbing amount. Nowhere along its length could I get consistent measurements. everything from 1.005" (25.527mm) to 1.023" (25.984mm). The red arrow in the image below points to a small scuff indicating where the piston is NOT round, but is actually egg shaped by almost .015" (0.38mm).
Just to reiterate, this is a NEW gun, and unfired by me.
(http://i36.tinypic.com/1z56um9.jpg)
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This thread is really an eye-opener.
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tho disturbing its not un common! I'm not taking up for HW just letting you know these tolerances are not un usual, you'll also probably find the the entire tube needs to be sunnen honed to make it concentric! :P
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tho disturbing its not un common!
Perhaps. But please convince me that 'interference' piston fits are rare (or should be). I'm no professional air gunsmith, but requiring 12-15 pounds pressure to move a naked piston (sans seal) within the bore... doesn't gel with me.
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I understand completely! I'm just pointing out my and others experiences with the workings of these rifles, I know from allot of tuning of HW guns that this seems to be the norm anymore with HW so sorry to hear you need to address these issues but I'm just tryin to help :-\ :P
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Hopefully that 12-15 pounds of weight to move your piston in that cylinder doesn't transpire into some energy sapping numbers at the muzzle. If that sort of weight is needed to push the piston through the entire length of its travel, well, you have to think of what a foot/pound is don't you - the energy gained by dropping a one pound weight from a height of one foot..!! Your cylinder might have less than half a foot of travel but that 12+ pounds of weight under friction over that distance may certainly show up as lost energy... Food for thought..!!
I see that you have the situation under control but it's worth bearing in mind for the rest us...
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Hopefully that 12-15 pounds of weight to move your piston in that cylinder doesn't transpire into some energy sapping numbers at the muzzle. If that sort of weight is needed to push the piston through the entire length of its travel, well, you have to think of what a foot/pound is don't you - the energy gained by dropping a one pound weight from a height of one foot..!! Your cylinder might have less than half a foot of travel but that 12+ pounds of weight under friction over that distance may certainly show up as lost energy... Food for thought..!!
I see that you have the situation under control but it's worth bearing in mind for the rest us...
I haven't bothered to pencil the numbers, but,.. it is well establish dynamics that state, that undue piston friction will negatively effect available FPE @ the muzzle due to reduced piston velocity. We have a known amount of spring loading, pushing a known given mass, over a known distance. Dial-in extra friction and available energy @ the muzzle is reduced (and converted to heat within the piston and cylinder wall). Just how much FPE loss this problem caused in this gun, is unknown without testing. This very subject is a key element with those individuals that resort to low friction buttons installed on their pistons... specifically aimed at reducing friction.
What's interesting, is that this particular HW95 was allegedly inspected and fire-test (5 pellets). I have the AoA chrono printout (w/tester's initials). But after opening this gun, I seriously question the validity of that 'test'.
I did manage to repair the piston - all I did was gently and incrementally pinch it in my well padded bench vise. It now moves freely by gravity alone (without the seal of course). The 're' build continues.:)
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What's interesting, is that this particular HW95 was allegedly inspected and fire-test (5 pellets). I have the AoA chrono printout (w/tester's initials). But after opening this gun, I seriously question the validity of that 'test'.
I know it's disappointing but I seriously doubt the guys at AoA would fake a test and send you a bogus chrono printout. It's nice to think of these rifles as precision engineered pieces of German goodness but it's obvious that they're mass produced and corners are cut to save money, and that they can perform remarkably well even before all the production defects are corrected.
It's very likely that for a lot of people the rifle you received would have eventually worn in to a state they're happy with. The folks that are knocking down coke cans at 20 yards and pleased as heck. And most of us have heard the stories of rifles continuing to shoot fairly well even with broken mainsprings. As Mark attempted to point out there's nothing particularly surprising here. He and a lot of other guys have tuned a large number of these and are just trying to offer some tips to get you back to shooting.
I've only worked on half a dozen HWs and almost all of them had an abundance of burrs and rough machining. All of them had forks that looked the same as yours and a couple had badly cut piston seals. But despite the tight pivot bolts and grinding and scraping noises every one of them shot fairly well before tuning and extremely well after.
I'm sorry you have to experience it and I know it's disillusioning to drop $400 and have problems but give Mark and the guys here a chance and they can help you know what has to be addressed and what can safely be left alone and they really are pretty easy to work on as you're discovering. It sounds like you're already well on your way to having a sweet shooter.
Good luck!
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Appreciate the encouragement jdub (and others too),
So someone please enlighten me. What approximate velocity can one expect from an out-of-the-box (no after market tuneups) HW95 throwing .22 cal RWS Hobbys?
Again, thanks all :)
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with those pellets you should be on the low end of 650fps and as much as 700+ on the hi end, Hobby's are pretty light pellets! :P
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Nice looking, but unimpressed with both the very stiff cocking (unusually tight breach pivot), and mild but audible ratcheting sound (as though the spring was rubbing against something internally during cocking). Undecided whether to return it... or open the tool box.
My latest R9 (rebadged HW95 without sights but with muzzle break and scope rings) bought last year was also extremely rough cocking when new, but now after a home tune and a few thousand shots the action is "slick as snot" :o! By the way, if you exchange it I'm betting that the replacement will be the same.
I was looking at your dissembled pic and it appears that it still had a piston liner, whereas my R9 had no liner in the piston and the cocking shoe was designed to ride the receiver cocking shoe slot onlike my older R9s that had the cocking shoe riding a piston liner. Here's a pic of the new style R9 cocking shoe.......
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2982014/1414324179_459204387_NewR9Shoe.jpeg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=59980)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
LOL.......just for grinns I even added an old R9 piston liner to the new piston and the new style cocking shoe worked perfectly!
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/3552014/1419248412_252160254_R9CockingShoe.JPG) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=63736)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
I have seen R9s and HW95s come from the factory with OVERLY tightened pivot bolt screws which can lead to galling if not properly lubed. Also, the two barrel shims do "seat in" with use and the point of impact will shift as the barrel tension changes with this "seating in". Myself, I readjust my R9 barrel pivot tension till the cocked barrel just falls of it's own weight in any part of the swing (LOL.....obviously be careful no to touch the trigger or safety button when adjusting the barrel tension). Folks always advise that it takes a couple tins of pellets to "break in" a springer before serious accuracy testing begins. I personally believe that MOST of the "break in" is due to the barrel shims and latching detents "seating in". As mentioned by other replies......my R9 came with a COPIOUS amount of factory grease which I stripped and then relubed.
Anywhoo.......after a few thousand shots my R9 really shoots smooth, however it contains a home rolled tight fitting guide and top hat in a good aftermarket spring. While I've never had any accuracy issues with my R9s in "factory twang mode", they can't be expected to shoot without twang and vibration with the loose fitting factory spring guide and no top hat. Here is a 50 yard target I shot with the new R9 after a home tune testing the accuracy of different pellets............
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2992014/1414414061_1241243019_scan0001.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=59987)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
Notice the CPL group in the upper left hand corner of the target.
Here is another 50 yard group shot during a variable breeze.......
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2352014/1408920655_1975447583_KrytoxVAC50Y1_29_2013.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=56426)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
And a couple "bug bustin" targets.......
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/3102014/1415364738_293761805_FlySplat1.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=61725)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/3102014/1415364736_1951913026_Fly2.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=61724)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/3102014/1415364734_1211687362_FlySplat.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=61723)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
By the way.....all groups were shot hunter class field target style (sittin' on a bucket using cross sticks), not bench rested. Hummmm......not too big of a deal since I haven't found that my springers take well to bench restin' in the first place!
Anywhoo.....the HW95/R9 is my favorite springer and I shoot the R9 MUCH more than my HW77k even though the heavier "77" is a bit easier to shoot accurately!
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::) Wow now I have to get my nerd buddy hooked on air guns he has a nice shop and his (nerd ) buddy had a complete machine shop in the basement. Otherwise I'll have to buy another very large roll around for my air gun only tools! ;D
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What caliber is yours?
.22
Not to be overly critical of Weihrauch, but I'm not impressed with the machining of this example. Perhaps it's my picky nature, but IMO, this isn't representative of $400 worth of German manufacturing....
Course machining evident on both pivot tabs. This is typical of dull and/or worn out tooling or broach cutter
(http://i48.tinypic.com/102o56v.jpg)
The red arrows show holes with sharply raised edges protruding internally - a.k.a. 'seal eaters'. Likely why the piston seal has noticeable damaged areas, as previously mentioned. Obviously, I need to chamfer these before reassembly.
(http://i49.tinypic.com/zoayjl.jpg)
IMHO.....the coarse machining is intentional to provide a "grease reservoir" for the shims. Notice that the rest of the surfaces are nicely machined.
Yes.....the punch outs ans dowel holes can be a "seal eater" and one of the first things I do is to deburr all holes and slots. This is especially important for use with my home rilled oring sealed piston caps, however I don't think they are much of an issue when properly lubed factory (or aftermarket) parachute seals are CAREFULLY installed.
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with those pellets you should be on the low end of 650fps and as much as 700+ on the hi end, Hobby's are pretty light pellets! :P
Thanks Mark,
I realize that it's purely a guess, but... Based on numbers you just posted, what change in FPS would expect to see with a binding piston requiring a minimum of 12-15 pounds pressure to slide in the bore?
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Trigger man,
Your 9 exhibits a lot of the same issues mine had. The piston was out of round the and the compression tube was pitted deeply. So I contacted the company that provides "warranty" for Beeman.
After all is said and done I have nice little 12 pound shooter that loves 13.43 AA Falcons .
Good Luck & HAppy Shootin,
Petey.
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IMHO.....the coarse machining is intentional to provide a "grease reservoir" for the shims.
... and permits easier access for contamination within those "reservoirs". The breach side-shims are there to inhibit lateral movement and prevent scratches to the side of the breach block.
Here's an image of my 'new' breach block... the visible circular scar you see, is approximately .003" deep. This is indicative of either contamination during assembly, and/or localized (read non uniform) pressure being placed on the shims - typically caused by rough, ill-machined mating surfaces.
(http://i38.tinypic.com/330egsn.jpg)
Notice that the rest of the surfaces are nicely machined.
Notice that the "nicely machined" surfaces are external only. The rough machining is internal, and in most cases, the gun needs disassembly to see it.
Yes.....the punch outs ans dowel holes can be a "seal eater" and one of the first things I do is to deburr all holes and slots. This is especially important for use with my home rilled oring sealed piston caps, however I don't think they are much of an issue when properly lubed factory (or aftermarket) parachute seals are CAREFULLY installed.
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So how do you "carefully" install the piston without raking the seal across sharp, ragged burrs and avoid seal damage? My solution was to simply eliminate the burrs prior to assembly... a 5 minute fix the factory should have done.
BTW, the OEM seal in this gun WAS damaged, and the damaged areas aligned perfectly with the burrs... and the piston was still covered with a heavy coating of factory grease.
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".. and permits easier access for contamination within those "reservoirs". The breach side-shims are there to inhibit lateral movement and prevent scratches to the side of the breach block."
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"permits easier access for contamination"...well this hasn't been an issue with ANY of my R9. Some were used decades for all types of shooting with 10s of thousands of shots!
"breach side-shims are there to inhibit lateral movement and prevent scratches to the side of the breach block."
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Again I disagree a BIT........the barrel shim purpose is simply center the barrel pivot block in the receiver forks. If the pivot bolt tension is adjusted so tight as to "INHIBIT lateral movement" there is considerable thrust on the shims which will wear them quickly. The shims only minimize "lateral movement" with correct bolt tension, it's the spring loaded detent wedge that actually creates a repeated barrel registry after cocking. However you are correct that doing so DOES provide about .005 clearance on each side between the pivot block and the receiver fork (determined by actually measuring a shim).
"Here's an image of my 'new' breach block... the visible circular scar you see, is approximately .003" deep."
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This is REAL puzzling to me because here is a pic of one of my barrels from an old Beeman R10 after THOUSANDS of shots.............
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/32015/1420378633_1614739724_R10ShimWear.JPG) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=64392)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
This is the most worn side and there is hardly any detectable wear other than the bluing worn off. I measured the wear of the worst side and it's about .001, the wear on the other side is too minor to detect with the fingernail and not measurable with my dial caliper. Actually, of over a dozen R9s, a couple R10s and a HW95 I've NEVER seen a wear pattern like the one in your pic. Just for grinns I removed the barrel from my newest R9 and here is a pic of the barrel shim area after shooting two cases of CPLs (about 10,000 shots). The "wear" is BARELY detectable with the fingernail and less than the .001 wear measured on the R10 barrel. Here's a pic I just shot.........
Notice that the wear pattern is similar to the old R10 pivot block wear pattern.
Again, I've never seen a wear pattern like yours and it SEEMS that it's a combination of excess pivot bolt tension and/or insufficient lube (or perhaps wrong lube), or perhaps the barrel shim was burred around the periphery. Even at that, the lack of bluing wear inside the "gouged circle" is a real puzzle! Perhaps you need to check out the shims for "punching burrs" and hone them off (if present) with an oiled Arkansas stone. Since the ".005 deep groove" is only on the periphery without even some bluing wear in the center, "good shims" will be perfectly adequate for proper function using proper lubes and barrel pivot tension!
"So how do you "carefully" install the piston without raking the seal across sharp, ragged burrs and avoid seal damage? My solution was to simply eliminate the burrs prior to assembly."
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I use a small round file to deburr the holes in my receiver tubes, however I haven't noticed where a new factory R9 seal performed any better.
"BTW, the OEM seal in this gun WAS damaged, and the damaged areas aligned perfectly with the burrs... and the piston was still covered with a heavy coating of factory grease."
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Yep.....I've had scored piston seals too like one in this pic next to one of my oring sealed piston caps that was damaged at the factory.................
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/32015/1420380408_1628226842_ScoredSeal.JPG) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=64399)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
Ya see...the HW factory piston seal is a pretty soft compound and will endure a bit of abuse so I really don't think HW believes it's necessary to do a complete internal deburr. LOL.....it's the oring seal that has issues with cuts so I always do a thorough deburr for that mod.
Humm.....my R9s also came slopped up with grease which is why I only shoot them a few times to check out the actual function before doing a "strip down, deburr and relube". LOL......it's takes less than an hour to do a thorough job, and I'm sure that you've found out that HW95s ain't "rocket science" and easily owner serviced.
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".. and permits easier access for contamination within those "reservoirs". The breach side-shims are there to inhibit lateral movement and prevent scratches to the side of the breach block."
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"permits easier access for contamination"...well this hasn't been an issue with ANY of my R9. Some were used decades for all types of shooting with 10s of thousands of shots!
The image I posted represents a 'new' gun - unfired by me. Clearly... not an example that endured thousands of rounds over decades.
"breach side-shims are there to inhibit lateral movement and prevent scratches to the side of the breach block."
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Again I disagree a BIT........the barrel shim purpose is simply center the barrel pivot block in the receiver forks. If the pivot bolt tension is adjusted so tight as to "INHIBIT lateral movement" there is considerable thrust on the shims which will wear them quickly. The shims only minimize "lateral movement" with correct bolt tension, it's the spring loaded detent wedge that actually creates a repeated barrel registry after cocking. However you are correct that doing so DOES provide about .005 clearance on each side between the pivot block and the receiver fork (determined by actually measuring a shim).
One can easily achieve ideal breach/receiver lateral alignment without 'shims'. But obviously, massive, visible scratches to the side of the breach block would result. So the designer simply dials-in extra side clearance and installs inexpensive shims...to reduce cocking friction and prevent the uglies. I guess we'll just have to politely disagree. :)
"Here's an image of my 'new' breach block... the visible circular scar you see, is approximately .003" deep."
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This is REAL puzzling to me because here is a pic of one of my barrels from an old Beeman R10 after many THOUSANDS of shots.............
Why is it puzzling?... I already explained why. My HW95 example is NOT a decade old gun, so I assume it was manufactured under different conditions (and perhaps by different equipment, by different employees than your 'old' Beeman). Dunno.
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well that's part of the problem with HW they have lost part of their older staff due to retirement and their QC isn't what it use to be! we all know how the younger generation is today and I sure its no different in Germany + theirs such a demand for these rifles I'm sure things get over looked to keep up with the demand and to keep costs down which is no excuse! these were once fine rifles and it seems they have deteriorated due to the econmany JMO :P
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well that's part of the problem with HW they have lost part of their older staff due to retirement and their QC isn't what it use to be! we all know how the younger generation is today and I sure its no different in Germany + theirs such a demand for these rifles I'm sure things get over looked to keep up with the demand and to keep costs down which is no excuse! these were once fine rifles and it seems they have deteriorated due to the econmany JMO :P
+1!
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::) After reading this thread, safe to say when I get my RWS 460 on Tuesday I'll be breaking it down and doing a basic tune and lube after a little homework on the breakdown process and ordering a tune kit. Now going to have to wait a few extra days to start shooting it.
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So someone please enlighten me. What approximate velocity can one expect from an out-of-the-box (no after market tuneups) HW95 throwing .22 cal RWS Hobbys?
Again, thanks all :)
with those pellets you should be on the low end of 650fps and as much as 700+ on the hi end, Hobby's are pretty light pellets! :P
Interesting, Mark, thank you
(http://i35.tinypic.com/2nqv32w.jpg)
And to think.. that my virgin, out-of-the-box HW95 allegedly produced mid 700's while suffering from a seriously binding piston, a damaged piston seal, and multiple helpings of thick 'axle' grease... amazing:)
well that's part of the problem with HW they have lost part of their older staff due to retirement and their QC isn't what it use to be! we all know how the younger generation is today and I sure its no different in Germany + theirs such a demand for these rifles I'm sure things get over looked to keep up with the demand and to keep costs down which is no excuse! these were once fine rifles and it seems they have deteriorated due to the econmany JMO :P
Yup. The unfortunate decision to purchase this HW95, rests on my shoulders. Apparently, my expectations was simply too high. No disrespect intended to Weihrauch owners, but this recent HW95 acquisition will be my last. Live'n learn.
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pretty good #'s buddy! :P
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IMHO.....the coarse machining is intentional to provide a "grease reservoir" for the shims. Notice that the rest of the surfaces are nicely machined.
I don't agree. Simply chatter from the side milling cutter use for the operation. Fork shaped parts offer up many challenges for machining and side milling cutters are always a last choice. My guess is that they don't consider the surface finish a problem in that area because of the use of shims to locate the breech block.
Tom
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I own 3 HW guns a R1 (1983) R9 (1997) R7 (2012). Been inside all of them the R1 has the best build quality of the three. If that was my gun I would send Hans Weinrauch an email with those pictures and ask him what's up with that Hans. I personally love my HW's and would not part with any of them. Sorry for your troubles sir.
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"Why is it puzzling?... I already explained why. My HW95 example is NOT a decade old gun, so I assume it was manufactured under different conditions (and perhaps by different equipment, by different employees than your 'old' Beeman). Dunno."
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Puzzling to me because my pic of the removed barrel is from my newest R9 bought last spring.......NOT over 20 years ago. Perhaps your gun is the "new norm", however my newest R9 works really slick after a few thousand pellets down the tube!
By the way, my newest R9 also has "grooved receiver fork milling", here is a pic..........
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/wved/Airgun%20Mods/NewestR9ReceiverForkMilling.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wved/media/Airgun%20Mods/NewestR9ReceiverForkMilling.jpg.html)
Just like the milling of the receiver fork for this decades old R9 receiver fork........
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/wved/Airgun%20Mods/R9WeldedTabs.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wved/media/Airgun%20Mods/R9WeldedTabs.jpg.html)
Anywhoo.......I'm of the notion that the "rough milling" is beneficial for the reason mentioned previously and I haven't had any negative issues due to the "fork milling" of ANY of my R9s and HW95!
Oh well.....I've been very pleased with my R9s, even my latest, and they are my favorite springers so we'll just have to agree to disagree! No harm/no foul!
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Puzzling to me because my pic of the removed barrel is from my newest R9 bought last spring.......NOT over 20 years ago.
What's the first 3 digits of your serial # on your newest R9? PM if you wish
-kenny-
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I don't have any R9's, Kenny.
But I just checked 3 Weihrauch rifles I have on hand here. Two of them have those same milling marks like yours and one of them doesn't.
None of these are "new" guns by any means. One of them is about 9 years old, another is almost 20 years old and the oldest one is over 30 years old.. The oldest one is the smoothest but it may have had some work done it to smooth it out since it's been beautifully refinished in a high gloss blue.
I have a feeling the older Weihrauch rifles are smoother and have better fit and finish on them overall from metalwork to stock. But that's how most things were back then, they certainly dont make them like they used to.
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Puzzling to me because my pic of the removed barrel is from my newest R9 bought last spring.......NOT over 20 years ago.
What's the first 3 digits of your serial # on your newest R9? PM if you wish
-kenny-
Serial number on barrel.........1835218
Interesting is the stamping on the receiver......
BEFORE USE READ OWNERS MANUAL
AVAILABLE FREE FROM AIR VENTURI
WARRENSVILLE HEIGHTS, OH 44128 USA
ano on the other side of the receiver tube....
BEEMAN MODEL R9
MADE IN GERMANY-DE
My couple decades old R10 has this stamping on the end cap
BEEMAN MODEL R10
Made in Germany
BEEMAN PRECISION ARMS INC.
SANTA ROSA, CALIF. 95403
This gun has long been "parted out" and the barrel was used on a R9 I assembled from parts and then sold so I don't know what the serial number of the R10 was.
Hummmm....it's interesting that the a warning was stamped on the newest R9 receiver and that the source was Air Venturi in Ohio.
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I don't have any R9's, Kenny.
But I just checked 3 Weihrauch rifles I have on hand here. Two of them have those same milling marks like yours and one of them doesn't.
None of these are "new" guns by any means. One of them is about 9 years old, another is almost 20 years old and the oldest one is over 30 years old.. The oldest one is the smoothest but it may have had some work done it to smooth it out since it's been beautifully refinished in a high gloss blue.
I have a feeling the older Weihrauch rifles are smoother and have better fit and finish on them overall from metalwork to stock. But that's how most things were back then, they certainly dont make them like they used to.
I generally agree with your assessment since my newest R9 did indeed seem to initially cock rougher than I remember my older R9s did. While they certainly don't "make then like they used to", I personally LIKT the changes made to the newer R9.
Preferred R9 changes are the bolted on bracket that incorporates the stock mounting screw holes and fixed barrel latch chisel.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/wved/Airgun%20Mods/NewR9Receiver002.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/wved/media/Airgun%20Mods/NewR9Receiver002.jpg.html)
In years past I had to replace a complete R9 receiver tube because the pressed in fixed chisel was quickly worn away by a burr on the harder metal of the spring loaded detent (replaced by Beeman under warranty). I never really understood the HW design where the expensive to replace receiver tube had a chisel with softer metal than the spring loaded chisel! Also, the tapped holes in the bracket is thicker than the "welded on tabs" of the older R9s so I don't expect them to strip out as easily. LOL.....my old R10 currently wears threaded inserts for "stock bolting" due to stripped out threads and I've done the same for a couple "customer guns".
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/1272014/1399547217_691200162_R9ThreadedInserts4.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=49840)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
I found some commercial inserts from McMaster Carr like these that worked a treat. Here's a pic............
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/32015/1420381442_1291372354_R10StockInserts.JPG) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=64402)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
I also like the redesign of the cocking shoe (so far after about 10,000 shots) that eliminates the need for a piston liner since the shoe ride the edges of the cocking shoe slot. Another thing that I've replaced on a couple of my R9s ( plus made a few for customers) was new piston liners, made of .015 thick steel instead of the roughly .012 thick used by HW.
By the way, as a side note, for DECADES I was over tightening my stock mounting screws which caused stripped tapped holes and even the wood was compressed. Here's a pic of a patch of hard hickory inletted into the stock of an older R9 to restore the compressed wood condition (done on both sides)...............
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/1462014/1401192136_438552027_StockInlay.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=50810)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
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Serial number on barrel.........1835218
Mine is 1884XXX (there's a handwritten AoA inspection doc with the date 5/12).
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Lastly,... let me clarify
Late 1970's through about late 1980's, my nephew participated heavily in air matches. He was Calif and Nev state champion, and successfully participated at Camp Perry. Suffice to say, he has enough trophies to fill a sizable U-Haul. Most of his 'tools' were Feinwerkbau's, but he also massaged a few Beeman sporters. I shot most of them, many times, favoring the Model 65 pistol. My elder father had an earlier Beeman rifle that was stolen 3 years back (don't remember the model). I used it several times, and to the best of my knowledge, it was never opened up. He now owns a used Gamo Vulcan which I gave him. I also own a new Ruger Blackhawk (purchased 2 years ago). None of these examples ever required disassembly, including my nephew's.
So, when I say this virgin HW95 was very difficult to cock, that assessment was based on reasonable experience. And now that it's reassembled, the cocking effort is easily close to half... and MUCH smoother. I bought this rifle NOT to punch paper, but solely for pest control and occasional table meat. Reliability and parts availability were high on the list of requirements.
It also amazes just how many HW owners purchase brand new... then immediately dissect them, or send'em off to a Pro for "tuning". I first thought that they were just being picky and they had $ to burn. Now I know, first hand... why. I expected my $400 purchase would be ready to use, out-of-the-box - clearly it was not. And it's disturbing to think that this virgin example not only left the factory passing inspection.... but was allegedly "inspected" a second time, and deemed satisfactory from an authorized HW distributer who sold it to me. Go figure.
Much gratitude to those who participated in this thread and shared. Thank You All :)
-kenny-
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So - I was pondering selling my Wisconsin made Silver Streak. But this thread is making me appreciate it's quality more. I am going to have think on it a little longer now, as the quality of that gun seems to be getting really hard to find.
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"It also amazes just how many HW owners purchase brand new... then immediately dissect them".
Yep......I'm guilty of immediately "dissecting" my HW springers because I don't like the "twang/vibration" in factory trim and I have a specific pellet velocity that I tune to. Initially it wasn't this way and back then I simply relied on shooting to "smooth up and deburr" the things.
Talking about harsh shooting guns when new, my latest R9 was "smooth" compared to a friends Gamo "something" 1000 that I TRIED to zero for him with a twang and vibration that would shake the molars and a trigger like dragging a nail on concrete. I literally couldn't shoot a 30 yard group any tighter than 1" ctc with that gun so I really don't know if it was zero'd or not. Then I bought a Crosman Quest 1000 and the tightest group I could shoot with that gun was 1.5" ctc at 30 yards. After MUCH rework, custom modding, and a trigger insert I was able to get the group size down to an unacceptable can rolling 30 yard accuracy of 1" ctc. Funny thing about the Quest was the way the spring would drag under foot of the cocking arm when cocking giving a "bumpty-bump" feel. Then I bought a for real Gamo 440 (the Quest was a Chicom copy of the Gamo220) hoping to have an inexpensive springer with satisfactory accuracy. Again, the best grouping I could get at 30 yards with the 440 and it's horrible trigger was a can rolling 1" ctc. I ended up literally land filling both the Crosman Quest and Gamo440 out of frustration never to look back!
Point of all this is that EVERY springer I've owned needed to be reworked to shoot to my satisfaction no matter if it was a Gamo440 bought on sale for $100 or my HW77, or my latest R9 bought for $450. The difference is that the R9 can be made satisfactory with about an hour of deburring and minor modding to shoot under 1" ctc at 50 yards, however the other cheapies NEVER shot a satisfactory group after a few DAYS of messing with them. IMHO....you do get what you pay for!
LOL....here is a pic of one of my Gamo field targets with a 3/4" killzone homemade reducer shot with the previous R9 and sold to another ft shooter. Notice that 15 out of 20 pellets went through the 3/4" killzone outdoors at 50 yards shot hunter class field target style (sittin' on a bucket restin' the gun on cross sticks).......
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2302014/1408450636_446347045_Gamotarget17_20.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=55953)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
Now compare this target shot with my newest R9.........
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2352014/1408920655_1975447583_KrytoxVAC50Y1_29_2013.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=56426)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
Five consecutive shots in a variable breeze (notice the 1/2" high x 1" wide group).
While these groupings aren't exactly PCP groups, I'm satisfied with them, especially considering how little modding was required. LOL.....even in "factory twang mode" straight from the box after a few dozen clearing shots I've never had a new R9 that shot over 1/2" ctc at 30 yards untuned!
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Dragging this post back up, I am reading because I own a B26 and just want to research what it was copied after. Thats that.
I want to comment on two things. Not ranting, just talking, reserving the right to be disagreed with. And I do agree, that rifle should have never left the factory like that.
(1) As a machinist of 30 years, the rough cut in the forks are magnified images for one, and its personal preference I guess but if a grain of sand gets in between close fitting polished & mated surfaces it has no place to go and you will have a nice arced scratch in your bluing. A few strokes with a good stone (if needed) will tame any existing issues with that finish, if there is one. Even with the grooves sand will do its thing eh?
(2) I read the comment on current quality control issues, "We all know how the younger generation is today".
That's just wrong. I am 60 years old and train our youth all the time and have seen them come and go and its no different than it has ever been, if not, it is or can be better than it ever has been.
Its the people doing the training, and providing tools and methods and guide lines. Modern cost cutting management types of all ages affect the bottom line. If management says thats good enough its nothing to do with the age of the employee. If a youth or elder is doing shoddy work its managements responsibility to correct the issue.
To lump all of today's youth into such is just wrong! Today's youth put us in orbit, design and build cars that run better, longer, faster and so on. Old timers like us don't live forever! You could not give me a 1957 Chevrolet. I drove a stock 1959 Corvette a few years ago and hated it.
Done
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With so many things wrong that you shouldn't have to fix why don't you put it back together and send it back?
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I remember looking at the German and Spanish springers in an Air rifle Headquarters catalog back somewhere @ the late 70's. Even back then they offer a service I think called accurizing I think. Was claimed that it would let you by-pass the 1000 shot break-in period required to get the best velocity and and accuracy.
I can understand a little break in for the moving parts, but never have understood how anyone the gave a &^^& about what they are doing could shove pistons and seal past all the machining burrs like it was ok to assembly something that way. Seems like common sense yet they do it and possibly have been doing it that way for a long time.
If I ever buy a high quality springer it will most likely be made in England. They seem to really care more about their air guns and take them very seriously.
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;) Todays youth is pretty much us old farts just 50 years younger . Back when I was a kid I was the one everyone brought their broken whatever to for repairs. Which is not to say I was an angel. As stated the quality of the workmanship is dependent upon personal pride and intelligent management
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This is an interesting turn for this thread. I'm of the school that prefers the rifles made in Germany and England in the 80's and 90's, mostly due to the fact that I enjoy wrenching on them and usually find that they're made with more attention to detail than the rifles being produced today. I also greatly prefer the stocks of the older rifles (especially the old Beeman wood stocks).
When I opened up my 1989 HW-made Marksman 56, the cross-hatching in the chamber was absolutely beautiful. Same goes for my old RWS-marked TX200...the machining is incredible.
Not slamming the new guns, just giving a shout-out to all those old classics that are still floating around. Something about them just calls to me. :D
-Paul
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Hmmm, I bet that gun shoots like a dream though. My Diana 56TH rachets like a hand cranked winch but shoots like a tack driver! Just have to get use to it I guess.
I think the sound you here is the clicking of the notches on the beartrap
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I wish this forum would find a way to keep images from disappearing because the original posters used services like Photo-Bucket and have removed, changed, or deleted them from their hosting account.
I feel like its rude or inconsiderate being this is a place to share information and its basically supposed to be permanent.
At least get the place holders out of our faces. UGH! Rant! Whine!
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I wish this forum would find a way to keep images from disappearing because the original posters used services like Photo-Bucket and have removed, changed, or deleted them from their hosting account.
I feel like its rude or inconsiderate being this is a place to share information and its basically supposed to be permanent.
At least get the place holders out of our faces. UGH! Rant! Whine!
I have to agree here! The issue is that with the PhotoBucket account I was running out of "free space" and to add more images would have required buying a "premium account". To compensate with my free account I would delete old images so I could add new images and stay within bandwidth limitations. A while back I found a free photo hosting site called Snapagogo which has no limits on images so I've been using that site for a while now and even migrating images from PhotoBucket to Snapagogo rather than deleting them.
I really don't know but it seems that if this site were to archive the images from posted links then the extra band width necessary would be "cost prohibitive"..........but then I'm only guessing here!
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Actually members can setup an album on the GTA. I think it's done on the members profile pages. Not sure what limits and restrictions may be imposed.
Yes under media in your profile.
test - click to enlarge
[smg id=3332]
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Sorry for the tears on your shoulders guys,
I get disappointed when I cannot see some of the stuff, especially nced's that were up at one time. I get all pulled in till the end of the drum roll and its ??
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Sorry for the tears on your shoulders guys,
I get disappointed when I cannot see some of the stuff, especially nced's that were up at one time. I get all pulled in till the end of the drum roll and its ??
Some of my pics were archived on CDs and I just went through my archives and restored MOST of the pics that had busted links. Hope this helps some!
Anywhoo......here is an update on my newest .177 R9 shooting 8.4 grain JSB Exact pellets at 50 yards, hunter class field target style........
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/3142014/1415743451_1738447830_50yardNov112014.JPG) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=61840)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
4 of the 5 shots went into a 3/8" ctc group with the second shot opening the group to 5/8" ctc! LOL....definitely not my typical group! ;D
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Thank you!
Nice shooting. I'm not shooting at that level (yet?) for sure.