GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Tyrantblade on February 25, 2013, 07:45:10 PM
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when at the cost some of them are at, and the clear advantages PCP's have that may be a better choice? i mean i know the start up cost can be expensive, but when some springers are at $600+ you have to wonder why people would spend so much on the older technology.
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A springer is a more zen weapon. PCPs are fun to shoot but ultimately require much more than the weapon itself. Meanwhile pump up gun has drawbacks as well. Probably a high pressure pump up like a Discovery would be nice but you have to carry a pump. With a springer, it's one effort, one shot. Much like with a bow or crossbow. If you miss or need another shot you simply cock again.
In a SHTF situation I can hit the field with ten thousand rounds of ammo and my rifle slung to my back.
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I think its much like with Bows. You have recurve lovers, longbow fans, and then guys who wont go near it unless it has a set of pully's. I have yet to invest in any one rifle over $350, but if I do I imagine it will be a top of the line springer just so I can say I have one, and of course hopefully experience what the high end guns are supposed to be like;)
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to me its like seein somebody carring an oxygen bottle everywhere they go . i prefer pellets and spring gun only . but that is why i do it like i do
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For that $600 what are you getting? Take a look at the TX200. Youve got PCP accuracy (better than some), close to pcp power (17 fpe in .22, 16 fpe in .177) and I can't say from experience but they say no hold sensitivity. Match trigger, beautiful stock, quiet as an hw30, excellent craftsmanship and engineering. And it doesn't require a tank or pump, some prefer it untuned as well. Sounds like you're getting your money's worth to me. It's heavy but most of it's proponents prefer the heft for stable shooting positions.
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PCPs for hunting.
Springers (prefer Nitro Pistons) for plesurfull target shooting.
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Good question and I thought long and hard on what would be my first quality airgun Rws 48 or Rws 56 big difference in price, well I bought the rws 56 $645 and the Hawke 6.5 20x42 $429
so I have over $1000 invested and don't regret the cost at all I love my springer!
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I perfer the no support equipment. Will I someday buy a PCP? Most likely but I love my springer's.
Oh and BTW PCP's are old technology. ;D
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=lewis%20and%20clark%20air%20rifle&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CC4QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D-pqFyKh-rUI&ei=Rx0sUfGSDqHj0gHQ1YGwDQ&usg=AFQjCNHM7COHg9aRf2pOE_ssVLNhZhlAVg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=lewis%20and%20clark%20air%20rifle&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CC4QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D-pqFyKh-rUI&ei=Rx0sUfGSDqHj0gHQ1YGwDQ&usg=AFQjCNHM7COHg9aRf2pOE_ssVLNhZhlAVg)
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To many, including me, it's a matter of convenience, reliability, utility and ease of use. My springers do everything I want them to do and more. I keep a couple by the front and rear doors of the house and if a varmint shows up, I simply pick up a rifle (which I keep preloaded with a pellet in the chamber), cock it and drop the critter. Put another pellet in the chamber and ready for the next chance. No extra thought or effort needed!
Same thing if I go to the field. Always ready to go and nothing extra required.
No extra equipment needed for maintaining air pressure, transferring air cartridges etc., no extra cost for maintaining all the extras I don't need.
I know what all my rifles can do and I know what I can do with them and I am extremely happy with that. Why do you question our choices with a lot of burdensome questioning?
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PCPs for hunting.
Springers (prefer Nitro Pistons) for pleasurful target shooting.
What Manny said...I have two good PCP's and two good springers. When I get tired of pumping when I do target shooting with the PCP's I switch to springers and rediscover the freedom of shooting hundreds of rounds without being burdened by an umbilical cord. I love them both and both platforms are unique.
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It's the addiction...Most folks start cheap but as the learning curve develops and the hobby grows, they start wanting what ever they decide is better and more fun. Then they end up with quite a collection. Don't ask me how I know. ;)
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I shoot springers most of the time because they are convenient and self sufficient. There is a lot to be said for not having to lug a tank or a pump around. So for me, it makes sense to invest in a quality spring gun.
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I shoot both Springers and PcPs but there is something about the feel of cocking a butter smooth tuned spring gun with a vibration free "Tunk" that follows when the trigger is pulled.It is a very pleasant feeling!!! It is like " bet you can't take only one bite".
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when at the cost some of them are at, and the clear advantages PCP's have that may be a better choice? i mean i know the start up cost can be expensive, but when some springers are at $600+ you have to wonder why people would spend so much on the older technology.
Same reason ( One would think ? ) why there are those Old School nostalgia Hot Rod car buffs that want vintage cars with big block rat engines !! ..... when a much more refined modern turbo charged car sets you into your seat just as HARD, runs as fast and likely Faster ! ... actually handles better too go figure, while offering better fuel mileage.
Yet ... you won't talk the Old School crown into believing newer techs any better !!
They BOTH launch LEAD, speed can be +/- nearly the same .... Ones old school simple that with some basic lovin will run for years !! .... Other is higher maintenance, needs support equipment that also needs support equipment for it too be able in operating at all.
See a pattern here :o
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I never have to worry about where my next fill is coming from, plotting velocities, shot counts, 'sweet spots', psi, how many shots I have left, hammer/spring adjustments, velocity adjustments, $600 compressors, or $400 tanks with a springer. All I have to do is cock, load and shoot all day long.
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What else needs to be said. Simplicity, no ancillary equipment needed and PCP like accuracy.
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Like some,, having owned both (still do) I will always consider the true airgun to be the one with with springs in them.. Why?? It's nothing to do with which has been around the longest or any other technical answers, it's simply that you grab your gun and a container of pellets and wander around all day enjoying the hobby of airgunning. You are a on your own, independent of the world around you. You can go almost anywhere and still just load and fire. No cannisters, no hoses or bottles and gauges etc...
That's not to say I consider the PCP an intruder in the hobby. Far from it.. It has it good points like no recoil, power beyond the black rainbow etc. I will always have a PCP or two up my sleeve but if I was forced to choose, I'd be scratching my head awful hard. The springer is very independent and that means a bit of security in your hobby...
I have a foot in both camps...
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There is more pure pleasure for me in shooting PCP guns, but I do enjoy the challenge of a springer. I also feel like they add more to the sport of field target. Getting your springer shooting really smooth and mastering the recoil, getting zen and dropping those targets is supremely satisfying.
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I suppose a quick answer to the question would be "Because they felt like it". I don't think anyone here feels the need to justify their choice of airguns. My own personal justification is simple -- I luv 'em all!
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Too me that question is kinda like....
Why swim, when you can float or why run, when you can walk.
The springer is more difficult to use, your skills have to be so much better, so why not a quality springer if so inclined.
Sometimes its not the destination that matters, its the journey along the way.
I love all my rifles, my springers will always be in my collection, they are an aquired taste to master.
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The utilitarian nature of springers has great appeal. Grab and go... one pump. PCPs require ancillary devices in order to function. I will agree that spending an additional $500+ on an already accurate springer to gain an extra 1% in performance may be overkill. Personally, I wouldn't take a pristine, high-$ air rifle on a hunting trip for fear of damaging it.
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is it weird to wonder why some people spend so much on some PCP's ?
A trigger and a vinger, that's why I should a springer 8)
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Cheaper then women and more reliable.
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Nothing is perfect.
Each has its pros and cons.
It is a matter of matching up what you want/need with the appropriate gun.
Example, I was perfectly happy with my SSP pistol, until my tendonitis cranked up. Then I had to switch to a gas pistol (co2 in my case) to ease the stress and pain. Now I have to deal with co2 gas and hydro testing the tank, which I did not have to deal with when shooting the SSP.
Same with my match rifles when I went from spring to CA/PCP.
I would much rather NOT have the logistical hassles of gas (co2 and CA). So they are a "necessary evil" to get the associated benefits.
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You can wonder all you want but at the end of the day, until you have shot a high end spring rifle, then you will not understand. Those that have never had the honor of shooting an R9 or TX cannot know the true potential of a spring gun. Personally, I am not a big fan of the full powered spring guns, by that I mean 1000 fps in .177 etc. I like my HW30 and Slavia 631. Two guns that will shoot just as well as the higher powered guns (out to a reasonable distance of course) and have no recoil because they just don't shoot that hard.
Kind of like Manny said, outside of the Nitro piston part, I use my springers when I am looking to plink, or just punch paper. They are a great stress reliever and are great to test your skills with. When my PCP's come out(depending on which PCP actually) that is when I start to get serious about what I am doing, whether that be hunting or target shooting or FT.
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100% sex appeal is a Good Springer ! ;D
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u532/scott_schneider1/IMG_1219_zpsbe455062.jpg)
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You Americans moan about the price of a springer!! $600 for a top end springer. Buy two. We pay 5 or 600 for a lousy Gamo. Value for money the worst deal in New Zealand. Not the worst gun some are worse. Poor quality cheap build. But then again you must get different Hatsans than we do judging by the GTA comments. Good quality nicely built and half the price of a Gamo. Of the few guns I have it is the CFX that disappoints me.
There is something about a springer especially a Diana or a Wiehrauch or a Hatsan. All guns that shoot well; enough recoil and noise to add some character to the event. Convenient to use in the garden or just ducking out to the workshop for a few quick shots.
Cock and fire- cock and fire- cock and fire. No ancilliary gear to make it go. A nice springer is a joy to hold, just makes old blokes feel good--- remember the hunting trip over the back fence in 1965.
PCPs-- wonderful machines; many of them are technically superb but some are just plain ugly. No character in the discharge. Not for me.
You might think I am biased --- correct.
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i like the thought of not having to worry about air pressure....... for now lol
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when some springers are at $600+ you have to wonder why people would spend so much on the older technology.
Just like GTA has The Dark Side... PCP and springers are mindsets. I had a really nice PCP, didn't mind the pumping, but almost never reached for it. Though it had adjustable power, it was really too powerful for my short-range pesting, too much for punching paper, and too bulky to not look both beautiful and menacing when I needed a shot out the window.
I've got some 10-meter target guns for springers (damped recoil, recoilless), Pneumatic and dual fuel. Love em for basement shooting. None cost more than $500, and the least expensive was about $75. PCP for the similar guns would run near $1000 at the bottom -- and on up to $4000, and that's without a filling solution. Cost has something to do with my choices there. I also don't know that I'd appreciate the finer points.
But I have to agree when you get around $600, you could own a decent PCP or an HW97k or TX200 or R9... It seems a little harder to justify... In that springer range the one different rifle I found was the RWS 54, which is a statement gun as far as design of a powerful springer goes. Very sorry to get rid of mine...
I prefer the springers for the simplicity, generally below $200, but the price range does raise more questions... Why own a $600 springer? it is, I think, for those who like the cadillac, mercedes, BMW, Lexus mentality of their cars. I drive a Honda Fit, by choice. If I had all the money, I might get something peculiar before I got something expensive. I only drove 4000 miles last year, and that was with a 600 mile trip at christmas... so cars dont do much for me. Most have 4 tires and a steering wheel and get you from here to there -- IF you can drive them. If i hunted anything beyond pests, the jump to PCP seems obvious at a certain point.
But then again is a $600 springer only the one you get out of the box? A $99 TF 89 with a full pro tune & trigger ($200), custom muzzle brake ($50) and fancy stock ($200) is right at that price point... And it is a personal thing -- which maybe you'd never be able to resell for half what you paid. It's a project and a different result in the same order.
I've tried a lot of springers from the biggest beasts to the most expensive to the least... "wimpy" target guns, kids toys, BB machines...One of the best guns I have left after a pretty big sell-off is a Norica Storm... Beautiful stock, well made, accurate, airstripper, easy-cocking...my pester. Got is used in a trade that worked well for both parties. About 1/4th the cost of those $600 guns, but just as beautiful and shooting as sweet. Considering the access I have to rifles and what I traded, it cost me about $111, and I'd stack it against anything 4 times the price. But that's me.
Richard
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Not to forget that many of us buy the "lower" end AG's because tearing into them adds another dimension to the experience! I fly r/c gliders that I build from scratch from my own designs. Without the building, it would not be as rewarding, and I save about 1k each!
pv
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You Americans moan about the price of a springer!! $600 for a top end springer. Buy two. We pay 5 or 600 for a lousy Gamo. Value for money the worst deal in New Zealand. Not the worst gun some are worse. Poor quality cheap build. But then again you must get different Hatsans than we do judging by the GTA comments. Good quality nicely built and half the price of a Gamo. Of the few guns I have it is the CFX that disappoints me.
There is something about a springer especially a Diana or a Wiehrauch or a Hatsan. All guns that shoot well; enough recoil and noise to add some character to the event. Convenient to use in the garden or just ducking out to the workshop for a few quick shots.
Cock and fire- cock and fire- cock and fire. No ancilliary gear to make it go. A nice springer is a joy to hold, just makes old blokes feel good--- remember the hunting trip over the back fence in 1965.
PCPs-- wonderful machines; many of them are technically superb but some are just plain ugly. No character in the discharge. Not for me.
You might think I am biased --- correct.
While you're chiding us for whining about the cost of a high quality springer (usually imported from England or Germany), don't forget to admonish us for complaining about the similarly high cost of quality PCPs which, with few exceptions, are also imported from across the pond. Perhaps if Theoben UK was able to export more rifles to the US at better prices they would still be in business. Unfortunately, in the airgun world of today, you gotta pay to play!
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It is what it is...what will be weird is why worry, be happy. Life is too short!
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I have a springer, a stock-pump, a Nitro Piston(2), and a PCP. They all have their own places. From a pure "devil's advocate" thought...why would anyone shoot a PCP, when an NP is so much more quiet?
The PCP is fun from a pure "put a pellet in and fire" prospective but it is pretty loud. Something you may not want at times. Personally I like them all :)
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well, about needing to fill a PCP, not really an issue in smaller calibers and/or high air capacity models.
in above said PCP's you can get quite a good amount of shots (depending on caliber, power level, and air capacity) before needing to refill to stay at one POI, some models allow you to twist off a cylinder and replace it when the pressure gets too low and starts to shift POI.
as for noise, not an issue for a shrouded barrel of modest power level (usually about as much power as some of the most powerful Springers), and to a degree some PCPs with a screw on LDC or similar added, and there is always reworking a shroud or adding to it to reduce noise from stock guns.
so really it seems PCP is the winning platform with all this.
just my .02 though
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As many have said, it's just a matter of personal taste. I have springers and PCPs but like the springers more. Same as with other things, some like automatic transmissions for their cars, some like to row a stick. Some like Bud, other like Miller, still others won't touch either one. Some like raised ranches, others like colonials. Then there's blonds, reds, brunettes, rainbow?. It goes on and on and there's generally nothing wrong with that. I'm just glad to be in a still mostly free country where I can buy what I want without too much trouble, at least for now...
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Pretty much agree with everything people have already said here... only thing I can add really is from a shooters perspective of skill....
A PCP will let you be about as sloppy as you want( except for bad trigger manners) and still put out good accuracy..... learning to shoot a springer well will increase your skills across ALL your shooting disciplines..... the absolute consistancy needed in your mount... from the position of your cheekweld and how much pressure you apply, to your grip positioning and how you put your physical structure behind the gun has to be exactly the same each and everytime to get the best out of yourself and your gun......
Those skills are the difference between "hey thats pretty good shooting" and "gracious how the *(&^ did you do that... not once but 10 times in a row..." with the same gun.....
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Just look at, hold and shoot a TX, 97, etc and when the silly grin begins to show the question is answered.
Joe
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Sunday I competed in a small bore rifle match (22LR). This was my second match and I'm starting to get used to it. I haven't done any practice between the matches but did shoot some air rifle one afternoon. Anyway, my best group was 1/2" at 50 feet prone 50 out of 50 with two bulls-eyes. My worst scores are sitting/kneeling. I've not practiced that at all and it's unfamiliar and clunky. Overall I did 333/400 with three bulls and it included two speed rounds. I had a jam during one that really messed me up.
Anyway; I'm certain that my shooting skills have improved from my backyard plinking and competition.
There is a ten minute warm up, sight in, unlimited shot at the start. After two nice groups of five shot I started shooting off the push pins holding up the target. I almost got my target to fall off, but one of the pins exploded leaving the steel shaft and I couldn't see the shaft through the scope. I feel like that if I really concentrate with my rifle I can put two slugs down the same hole, but repeating that in competition is difficult.
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I fully admit that I have never shot a high quality spring piston rifle. I have owned 3. I still have a cheap Beeman takedown rifle in .177. I had 2 B-3s. The second was a warranty replacement for the first one. They were &^^&. I have two multi-pumps and two C)2 powered (12 gram metal cartridges). My Remington Airmaster, my Crosman Custom Shop 2400 CO2 carbine, and now, my super cheapo Daisy Model 35 multi pump are all able to shoot 0.0" center to center groups at 10 yards from a rest (these are best groups-not groups I can do every time). The Daisy is with open sights, and is a smooth bore BB/pellet shooter. With my Beeman I have a group of 5/8", and it was as hard to get that group as it was to get the "perfect" groups with the other guns.
I don't need a magnum air gun. I only care about accuracy. I bought the Daisy to be able to shoot cheap BBs without having to worry about degrading the rifling. I wasn't expecting much as far as accuracy, but with the Crosman Destroyer pellets I got my 0.0" group with open sights with a $35.00 air gun!! It also shoots Crosman Premier wadcutters almost as well.
I would like an accurate spring piston rifle. It would need to be quiet, accurate, reliable, and easy to shoot. I think I may get an Air Venturi Bronco that is known for these traits and has a fine trigger. If I can't shoot that thing consistently well, then it will be my last springer. The CO2 rifles and multi-pumps are so easy to shoot.
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Before I got my TX, the only real good groups I could shoot were all one shot groups ;D
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My old Daisey 102 (smaller red rider) shot a one inch ten shot group offhand at ten yards with fixed metal sights and Daisy silver BBs. Still want to throw a scope on it and see what it'll do.
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easy I am crazy :P
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Quality and accuracy are the two main reasons. Both being consistant day in and day out. Would you rather go dove hunting with some low end POS 12 gauge shot gun,...or field an old tried and true Browning Sweet-Sixteen 'hump back' A5?!?!?! There is a reason for price differentiation in spring guns,....you just have to experience them to really know "the reason why". Thank goodness I bought my first R1 in the 'used' classifieds,....changed my whole perspective on spring guns,...swear to it too. MY old Santa Rosa R1 is what the best Gamo ( not including some of the English made BSA makes of course) only wish they could be. Yes there is a difference, and the form and function of the "high end" springers proves this without a shadow of a doubt. IMO, the 'good stuff' is for shooting, the cheap &^^& is for tinkering with. Don't get me wrong, taking a cheap $100 springer and making it shoot better is loads of fun!!!
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I'll tell you what TJk !!!I have an R-1 Beeman and a 880 Gamo [all steel and wood] That Shadow did a turbo tune on. That Gamo is every bit as smooth as that R-1 and it shoots like a 12 meter Target Gun. It also has a cdt trigger . I would not part with that Gamo 880 . Then again Shadow is is Master at what he does and all Gamo guns don't shoot like this gun. It is definitely a keeper.
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That is good shooting offhand, and good even for bench rested with BBs. I ordered a Tasco 2x7 x20mm low end scope for my Daisy Model 35. I couldn't see spending more than the gun is worth for a scope. My bad eyesight is holding back the group size and consistency of the gun. I use a 6:00 hold and know sight alignment of open sights very well. It is exasperating to have eyesight problems (I wear progressive glasses and am 59). But, even with all that, I have shot some decent groups (and a few outstanding ones) when the light conditions are about perfect and everything goes well. For BBs, I'm hoping for 1/2" groups scoped at 10 yards and I would be happy.
My old Daisey 102 (smaller red rider) shot a one inch ten shot group offhand at ten yards with fixed metal sights and Daisy silver BBs. Still want to throw a scope on it and see what it'll do.
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when at the cost some of them are at, and the clear advantages PCP's have that may be a better choice? i mean i know the start up cost can be expensive, but when some springers are at $600+ you have to wonder why people would spend so much on the older technology.
I find this thread so offensive that I can't even comment on how much I've spent on "Springers". ;D ;D
I think $600 is a BARGAIN for a decent springer.
It's like saying why buy a Patek Philippe when you can just stick a battery in your watch?
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when at the cost some of them are at, and the clear advantages PCP's have that may be a better choice? i mean i know the start up cost can be expensive, but when some springers are at $600+ you have to wonder why people would spend so much on the older technology.
I find this thread so offensive that I can't even comment on how much I've spent on "Springers". ;D ;D
I think $600 is a BARGAIN for a decent springer.
It's like saying why buy a Patek Philippe when you can just stick a battery in your watch?
I was wondering when you'd chime in on this one Niko!!!!! I knew You wouldn't disappoint!!!
;D :D
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All right fellas, if we really want to stretch our analytical skills, lets figure out how women can find shoes so fascinating! Or perhaps we could figure out how dealers have the nerve to charge tens of thousands of dollars for a car, enough money to be used for house downpayment. By comparison those springers look like a bargain in the spending spectrum.
Bottom line is -- to each his own.
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when at the cost some of them are at, and the clear advantages PCP's have that may be a better choice? i mean i know the start up cost can be expensive, but when some springers are at $600+ you have to wonder why people would spend so much on the older technology.
I can only chime in from my POV. A springer is old school I agree. But have you ever wondered why the wheel is rebuilt even though it works in it's present condition???
A springer is the traditional platform and still serves so well and is as easy as.....cock-load-shoot-repeat! No other equipment cost to go along with the gun other than pellets!
To master a springer is some of the fun but if you buy a quality springer that you elude to like a AA; Weihrauch; Diana; we could go on but you get the idea, you get a accurate gun with hardly any sensitivity hold issues! They are made to last generations and provide the owner with a very accurate spring gun with now days ample power.
PCP's are nice and I have them..............but every so often I like to pull out the German Beast HW97K tuned to do some lead slinging!
Now days with the newer generation of shooters I can see the by-pass of learning with a quality springer with such enticement of a PCP and no real need for expertise and learning the old fashioned way......just point and shoot and usually hit a target without effort. But there are those of us who like to keep it "real" and remember our roots of airgunning! ;D
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Well, in Germany we aren't allowed to shoot high powered AG's without a license.
At 10 to 15 Meters, a Vintage German 10 Meter gun is hard to beat. I have a couple, when new they were in the area of $1000, as far as I know. I got them for a third of new price, or even much less. They shoot now as good as new. For the most part I can do the work myself, and I don't need a lot of equipment to shoot when I want to. Plus, they look good. The old walnut stocks and the blue metal are just right, in my book. When I get tired of it, sell it for a profit, or maybe not, and get another beauty to play with.
My problem is though, I'm getting real interested in the German SSP's. But I'll keep the old springers that I have.
My oldest Walther is this month 50 years old. I think as well as others that know much more than me, this is one of the finest springers ever. The thing looks brand new. New guns don't look like this one, that's why I like the old springers.
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That's a good question...
Like was mentioned several times in this thread, there's a bit of a 'zen' aspect to springers (and pump pneumatics) in that you put in effort to crank it before firing.
Same reason I like bows. It's my energy 'charging' each shot I take, whether it's a bow or a springer. My energy in -- my energy out.
I have thought about getting more into PCPs and using a pump as the sole method to fill the gun, but I keep reading that it isn't recommended since even the best moisture traps will still get some moisture into the tank. And being in Hawaii, it's quite humid here, so there's already a surplus of moisture in the air to deal with. I've gotten rid of my pump and PCPs because of this.
Aloha!
Best regards.