GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Tater on February 24, 2013, 05:20:14 AM
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My wife likes shooting our PB (Ruger SR9) but I haven't been able to get her interested in AG. She does shoot my 1377 with me at times but can't pump it herself. I've been eyeballing the P17 and Rolando's recent post motivated me. We went to Cabelas tonight and as I hoped they had P17's, they had red dots already on them. Luckily, she went for it. It's similar to our Ruger in shape and weight. We had enough Cabelas points that we didn't pay anything for it and got some pellets too using points. All free.
http://reviews.cabelas.com/8815/228507/beeman-2006-pistol-with-red-dot-sight-reviews/reviews.htm?page=5&sort=rating (http://reviews.cabelas.com/8815/228507/beeman-2006-pistol-with-red-dot-sight-reviews/reviews.htm?page=5&sort=rating)
Not good reviews here.
Anyhow, we got home and for accuracy we both took a few 5 shot groups at 20' (resting on a chair). 4 of 5 holes were touching for each of us so I love the accuracy and the trigger is really nice as is. I do plan to smooth it out though.
The problem is, there's no way she could cock that thing. With the red dot on it it's even hard for me to cock while avoiding moving the open sights and red dot. There's barely only room to use to fingers to close it up. Do these things get easier to cock or is there a trick to it? I know there are tons of posts and videos about these and I plan on going though a bunch of them tomorrow, but I don't remember reading anything about making them easier to cock.
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...The problem is, there's no way she could cock that thing. With the red dot on it it's even hard for me to cock while avoiding moving the open sights and red dot. There's barely only room to use to fingers to close it up. Do these things get easier to cock or is there a trick to it? I know there are tons of posts and videos about these and I plan on going though a bunch of them tomorrow, but I don't remember reading anything about making them easier to cock.
If you're right handed, hold the grip in your left hand with the muzzle pointing to the right.
Release the hammer catch with your left index finger.
Open it up all the way.
Load the pellet (or not, if you want to test fire).
With your left hand still on the grip, put the bottom of the bottom of the frame in front of the trigger guard on your right thigh.
Place your right palm on top of the red dot.
Make sure no skin or clothing will get caught.
Push down until it closes & latches.
My red dot doesn't move when pushed, the rear sight will.
(http://home.comcast.net/~smithmonte/images/firearms/beeman_p17.jpg)
Are you saying that this red dot will move if you press down on it?
(http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_228507_999_01?rgn=0,0,2000,1687&scl=3.8095238095238093&fmt=jpeg&id=1BNb5dGBO-azDPMKYBdbQe)
To me, it seems mounted too far forward for easy closing. I would move it rearwards as far as possible.
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When I read that she could not pump the 1377, I immediately thought "there's no way she can cock the P17". I've got at least 1000 shots through mine. Sad to say, the cocking effort remains the same. I've got a red dot on mine. moved as far front as possible. I haven't had problems with the red dot moving, but I do press down on the rear sight. I'm not concerned with movement there, since I'm using the red dot.
I'm more accurate with the red dot than with the open sights, but as accurate as the gun is, I'd like to try a scope for bench rest shooting, but I don't see how I could mount a scope, and still be able to cock it.
The trigger does have an adjustment, but it just seems to adjust the "first stage" length. Although it breaks predictably, I still find the second stage to have some creep.
My first one failed after 20 shots, and was returned (I wasn't that surprised). My second one is still going strong without anything being done to it. This seems a bit unusual, as most folks seem to do some work to smooth things out, replacing seals etc.
I love mine. For $36, a true bargain.
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p17... best bargain in airgunning... mine is still going strong after 5 tins of hobbies...
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The trigger seems fine to both of us, but would you guys recommend lubing everything and deburring the intake hole as most seem to end up needing to do or just shoot it as is until there is an issue?
@45man - I'd be afraid to push down that hard on the red dot. Not only because it would move but it looks like it would break very easily.
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the adjustment on the trigger on mine was enough. i opened mine and mostly cleaned and lubed... no deburring. as per pushing on the back of your red dot... the open screen one you show on the picture has the adjustment on the rear... so its only the screw that would be taking the load of closing the pistol... i woulndn't do it. get a tube red dot like the 30 mm shown... it will be better. or slide your as far forward as possible and close it by pressing on the rear sight (max leverage). this guns are silly accurate... will give a daisy 717 or even a 747 a run for its money...
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The trigger seems fine to both of us, but would you guys recommend lubing everything and deburring the intake hole as most seem to end up needing to do or just shoot it as is until there is an issue?
@45man - I'd be afraid to push down that hard on the red dot. Not only because it would move but it looks like it would break very easily.
Just shoot until an issue. My o-rings (seals) didn't last that long; they weren't torn or nicked. When I closed it, there would be a small hiss, but would still fire the pellet. When you replace them, then you can see if it needs deburring (mine did not). I only lubed the o-rings & cylinder, not the "action" (parts inside the handle). Everything has to come out to replace the o-rings. I just did it last week. See this thread: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=31037.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=31037.0)
the adjustment on the trigger on mine was enough. i opened mine and mostly cleaned and lubed... no deburring. as per pushing on the back of your red dot... the open screen one you show on the picture has the adjustment on the rear... so its only the screw that would be taking the load of closing the pistol... i woulndn't do it. get a tube red dot like the 30 mm shown... it will be better. or slide your as far forward as possible and close it by pressing on the rear sight (max leverage). this guns are silly accurate... will give a daisy 717 or even a 747 a run for its money...
Agree with everything said, i.e. super accurate, slide your red dot all the way forward. BTW, if it gets easier to cock, then something is wrong. Mine didn't start leaking until it was all the way closed & latched.
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the adjustment on the trigger on mine was enough. i opened mine and mostly cleaned and lubed... no deburring. as per pushing on the back of your red dot... the open screen one you show on the picture has the adjustment on the rear... so its only the screw that would be taking the load of closing the pistol... i woulndn't do it. get a tube red dot like the 30 mm shown... it will be better. or slide your as far forward as possible and close it by pressing on the rear sight (max leverage). this guns are silly accurate... will give a daisy 717 or even a 747 a run for its money...
Do you think it's safe to press down that hard on the rear sight? I'd rather just use those anyways, but my wife likes the red dot.
If I just removed the rear sight, that would leave more room to grip and close it up when cocking. Is it the one screw on the top that holds it on?
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Do you think it's safe to press down that hard on the rear sight? I'd rather just use those anyways, but my wife likes the red dot.
If I just removed the rear sight, that would leave more room to grip and close it up when cocking. Is it the one screw on the top that holds it on?
Yes, it's OK. Sometimes I do it by mistake. The screw on top is for elevation adjustment. There is an issue with the rear sight. The nut on the underside comes loose very easily which will raise the POI. I used blue loctite or you can get a longer screw & locknut. M4 x 0.7mm should do it.
See here: http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/derricks-short-list-for-beeman-p17.html (http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/derricks-short-list-for-beeman-p17.html)
I decided mine didn't need any of the setscrew mods.
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Just shoot until an issue. My o-rings (seals) didn't last that long; they weren't torn or nicked. When I closed it, there would be a small hiss, but would still fire the pellet. When you replace them, then you can see if it needs deburring (mine did not). I only lubed the o-rings & cylinder, not the "action" (parts inside the handle). Everything has to come out to replace the o-rings. I just did it last week. See this thread: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=31037.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=31037.0)
Agree with everything said, i.e. super accurate, slide your red dot all the way forward. BTW, if it gets easier to cock, then something is wrong. Mine didn't start leaking until it was all the way closed & latched.
Was the hissing cause by lack of lube since the seals were OK?
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Do you think it's safe to press down that hard on the rear sight? I'd rather just use those anyways, but my wife likes the red dot.
If I just removed the rear sight, that would leave more room to grip and close it up when cocking. Is it the one screw on the top that holds it on?
Yes, it's OK. Sometimes I do it by mistake. The screw on top is for elevation adjustment. There is an issue with the rear sight. The nut on the underside comes loose very easily which will raise the POI. I used blue loctite or you can get a longer screw & locknut. M4 x 0.7mm should do it.
See here: http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/derricks-short-list-for-beeman-p17.html (http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/derricks-short-list-for-beeman-p17.html)
I decided mine didn't need any of the setscrew mods.
Thanks, I just bookmarked that link.
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Since I had it all apart, I replaced the 2 small seals on the chamber valve. Also replaced the breech seal because it's the same size as one of the chamber seals. I have a Harbor Freight kit of O-rings so I used what I had.
Here's the 2 links with the instructions. I downloaded all the pics (50-60) & my computer is next to the work table.
http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/derricks-on-beeman-p17-overhaul-part-1.html (http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/derricks-on-beeman-p17-overhaul-part-1.html)
http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/derricks-beeman-p17-overhaul-finale.html (http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/derricks-beeman-p17-overhaul-finale.html)
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Thanks 45Man.
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if you want to be amazed... mount a rifle scope with like 9x and put a target at like 50 yards or near that. get comfy behind some pillows to adjust to the short eye relief and get a group out there... 5 shots later you'll look at the p17 in a whole new light....
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if you want to be amazed... mount a rifle scope with like 9x and put a target at like 50 yards or near that. get comfy behind some pillows to adjust to the short eye relief and get a group out there... 5 shots later you'll look at the p17 in a whole new light....
I was I had that much space to try it. I can only shoot indoors up to 13 yards.
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at 13 you should be able to stack lead pellets in top of each other... great pistol...
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at 13 you should be able to stack lead pellets in top of each other... great pistol...
Haha, I wish. My eyes are not good at all and bifocals only let me focus on either the sights or the target. It's an awkward balancing act.
I was just watching a video about opening it up and removing the barrel. Did you guys clean the barrel right off the bat?
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I got mine for $40 on craigslist with a 1377 ($40 for both...), it's the older Marksman 2004 model (same gun), haven't touched a thing other than finding a screw, nut and spring to work in the rear sight as those were all missing, I've left it cocked for a month (forgot I did that, shot it yesterday and it was still loaded and cocked :)) and it seems to hold that fine! super fun and accurate gun. At 50 yards it would be shooting like 6" low but I imagine it would group pretty well
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Hmm... I'm interested in where you got a spring for the rear sight. I tried looking for one in hardware stores, after one of mine went flying, but I could never find one that was comparable.
I didn't really see the need to wash the barrel(s) on any of mine.
It is remarkable how precise this pistol can be (once you realize the red-dot sight it comes with is junk). At about 15m, using a scope (wallyworld $7 short version of the crosman 4x15) I'm able to get really small/tight groups, so it is highly likely you could stack pellets @ 13m.
setscrew mods?
I'd lube the piston with a lite amount of white lithium grease, remove the hand grip, inspect the trigger mechanism (get familiar with its parts), re-attach the hand grip, then shot till there is/was a problem. Then upgrade the seals when you have to take it apart & troubleshoot the problem(s).
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no necessity to remove barrel... (in fact, dont unless you have to.) open it and run patches of goo gone through so they fall out of the back. that is it. plus it is going so slow that lead deposits will take forever to build up. i cleaned mine when i got it and havent since...
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Hmm... I'm interested in where you got a spring for the rear sight. I tried looking for one in hardware stores, after one of mine went flying, but I could never find one that was comparable.
I didn't really see the need to wash the barrel(s) on any of mine.
It is remarkable how precise this pistol can be (once you realize the red-dot sight it comes with is junk). At about 15m, using a scope (wallyworld $7 short version of the crosman 4x15) I'm able to get really small/tight groups, so it is highly likely you could stack pellets @ 13m.
setscrew mods?
I'd lube the piston with a lite amount of white lithium grease, remove the hand grip, inspect the trigger mechanism (get familiar with its parts), re-attach the hand grip, then shot till there is/was a problem. Then upgrade the seals when you have to take it apart & troubleshoot the problem(s).
I've watched a ton of videos about these pistols and I don't recall them lubing the piston. Do you have to disassemble or just open it up like you cocking it and smear a bit on the open piston?
no necessity to remove barrel... (in fact, dont unless you have to.) open it and run patches of goo gone through so they fall out of the back. that is it. plus it is going so slow that lead deposits will take forever to build up. i cleaned mine when i got it and havent since...
That is good to know. I ran out out of time yesterday or I probably would have removed the barrel. I'm very glad I didn't and don't need to.
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...I've watched a ton of videos about these pistols and I don't recall them lubing the piston. Do you have to disassemble or just open it up like you cocking it and smear a bit on the open piston?...
You only have to pull 1 pin to remove the piston. You want to lube the big O-ring, pull the piston & lube it.
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You only have to pull 1 pin to remove the piston. You want to lube the big O-ring, pull the piston & lube it.
Awesome, that looks simple to do! Thanks for the pics too, very helpful.
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@45man: I loosened the set screw but the pin won't budge. Do I have to punch it out with a pin?
Edit: By the way, the set screw wasn't even tight!
I did clean the barrel with Goo Gone though. It was pretty dirty but now squeeky clean. Since my wife was at the store, I decided to take a shot to test it. That thing is so fun to shoot I couldn't stop! :D
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generally I just get a dab of grease on the piston when its mostly extended and work the grease around the aluminum cylinder, then work it back & forth w/o closing it all the way til it feels like its not dry (well lubed). See that line in the background? that's approximately where the o-ring is.
from personal experience, don't over do it with the lithium grease. lite & thin. It can build up and muck up the valve.
Yes you'll need to punch it out.
I'll have to find it another time, but I watched a you.tube video this past summer, were the poster had mounted a rather nice, full sized AO 32mm scope onto one of these. If I recall he was getting good accuracy til it stopped working... "blah blah... it was junk... blah". If he'd spend the a fraction of the cost of the scope, he could have replaced the seals and been a-okay.
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Here is what I use to maintain my p17's:
The Harbor Freight o-ring box is sometimes on sale for $5.99, use the 20% coupon + free item (flashlight, set of screwdrivers, gloves, tape measure, volt meter...etc.) and you walk out of there with too many o-rings for about 5 bucks. They also sell Viton and HBNR o-rings, but I do know the red/blue (SAE/metric) boxes have ALL the sizes needed for 1/2 the price. HF also has a cheaper thing of nitrile o-rings, haven't tried that one.
Best > Better > Good > unreliable
HBNR > Viton > Nitrile > unspecified material o-ring
In theory, HBNR should last longer then Viton.
It is however, unless I'm grossly mistaken, super nitrile (kind of like gorilla tape is super duct tape).
http://www.harborfreight.com/397-piece-metric-o-ring-assortment-67580.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/397-piece-metric-o-ring-assortment-67580.html) (http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/47x47/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_19931.jpg)
20x 006's (Valve & breech)
18x 008's (Valve)
14x 116's (Piston)
52 o-rings you can use for $5, so about $.10 an o-ring.
Then you can do w/e you want with the extra 330+ o-rings they throw in.
The piston o-ring gets the most wear, which is why the Blue (14x) is a better buy then the Red box (13x).
http://www.harborfreight.com/382-piece-o-ring-assortment-67554.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/382-piece-o-ring-assortment-67554.html) (http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/47x47/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_19812.jpg)
22x 006's (valve & breech)
20x 008's (valve)
13x 116's (piston)
55x useable(s), unconfirmed since these are SAE. Should be close enough though to work interchangeably, $0.9 per o-ring.
http://www.harborfreight.com/180-piece-viton-o-ring-kit-67525.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/180-piece-viton-o-ring-kit-67525.html) (http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/47x47/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_19794.jpg)
15x 006's (Valve & Breech)
15x 008's (Valve)
5x 116's (Piston)
35x useable o-rings, $9, about $0.27 per o-ring.
http://www.harborfreight.com/205-piece-hnbr-o-ring-kit-67644.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/205-piece-hnbr-o-ring-kit-67644.html) (http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/47x47/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_14438.jpg)
15x 008's
[** not sure if any of the others fit! If anyone knows please inform, so I can update.**]
http://www.harborfreight.com/225-piece-metric-nitrile-o-ring-assortment-67609.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/225-piece-metric-nitrile-o-ring-assortment-67609.html) (http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/47x47/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_19949.jpg)
[** not sure if any of these fit! If anyone knows please inform, so I can update.**]
I'm pretty sure, but not 100%, that the chinese p17 uses METRIC,and the german p3 uses SAE o-rings oddly enough.
Couldn't find these when I took the picture, so here are some stock pictures: Rubber Mallet, and misc. hex allen wrench (2mm is the one you use I think?).
(http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/160x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_21809.jpg)(http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/160x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_14934.jpg)
If you were extremely thrifty/lazy, you could probably use the o-ring box as an improvised mallet (not recommended).
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Hmm... I'm interested in where you got a spring for the rear sight. I tried looking for one in hardware stores, after one of mine went flying, but I could never find one that was comparable.
No idea where I got the spring, I went digging through my parts bins as I keep all the springs I find from whatever I take apart... all I know is I had cut the spring I found in half to use... also all I had was 6-32 screws (maybe 4-40) and the nut was too big to fit in the hex in the gun, so to the belt sander the nut went :). Knowing how the rear sight is put together I don't worry too much about pushing on it when I cock the gun, especially since I put a dab of blue loctite on the nut after the sights were adjusted.
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Ah. Well I had improvised, sticking a random o-ring in there. That has actually worked out well for over a year now, it doesn't wobble up/down as much as the pistols with the spring, when I'm closing the stroke. I might see if its maybe a spring from a pen. I still remember the moment I lost that sucker like it was yesterday... "huh that rear sight looks a little looser then normal..." *sproing*... "oh ****".
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Thank you so much Althawk. I'll get one of those o-ring assortments, I'm sure I'll use a bunch of them sooner or later.
Can anyone else confirm that the rings are metric on P17's?
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absolutely. gun made in china as a copy of a pistol from Germany. Metric 100%.
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absolutely. gun made in china as a copy of a pistol from Germany. Metric 100%.
Thank you sir.
You guys have all been very helpful in this thread. We've only had time shoot about 30 or so pellets through it but I REALLY love that pistol.
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Thank you so much Althawk. I'll get one of those o-ring assortments, I'm sure I'll use a bunch of them sooner or later.
Can anyone else confirm that the rings are metric on P17's?
My HF set of O-rings is so old, the bins are square and not marked, just pick out ones that look close.
Item #31677, 225 Piece Nitrile O-Ring Assortment
18 different sizes from 3/32" x 15/64" to 3/4" x 1"
Label is red, same as the item #67554
I'm sure the Chinese use whatever is the cheapest at the time, could be inch or metric. Most likely rejects of some kind.
You guys have all been very helpful in this thread. We've only had time shoot about 30 or so pellets through it but I REALLY love that pistol.
Wish I could find a better way to load than placing the pellet on the head of a finishing nail. Not nearly as easy to load as my IZH-53M
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I have owned a P17 now for a couple years, just basement plinking, but a decent little shooter that is certainly easy on the wallet! :)
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Maybe the GBB Sig P226-X5 would be better suited for her.