GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => "Bob and Lloyds Workshop" => Topic started by: rsterne on February 16, 2013, 11:46:08 PM
-
Every once in a while I try and find a new test medium for assessing pellets.... Over the years I've tried, wood, phonebooks, paraffin wax (all too hard), water, plumbers putty, playdoh, and ballistics gel (IMO all too soft and/or temperature sensitive), and I recently tried a bar of clear soap, which showed promise, so I ordered some melt-and-pour soap online, and after a few initial test shots, cast it into some bricks for pellet testing.... I cast the bricks in 8 x 8 square Pyrex dishes, about 1.5" thick, and using my Grouse gun, shot into the edge of the bricks.... This gun shoots at 20 FPE quite consistently over 16 shots, with lighter pellets achieving about 19 FPE and heavy ones about 21 FPE, which is typical for a PCP.... Here are the results, and some observations....
Top row right to left:
Gamo Match Wadcutter 13.7 gr.
Gamo Hunter Domed 15.1 gr.
Gamo Magnum Pointed 15.1 gr.
Gamo Roundball 15.1 gr.
Gamo Master Point 16.4 gr.
Gamo TS-22 Rounded Point 21.6 gr.
Hatsan Domed 14.3 gr.
Predator Big Boy Pointed 26.0 gr.
The wadcutter shortened and expanded slightly, and had the least penetration.... The roundball left a very narrow wound channel, as did the TS-22 which penetrated deeply....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/IMG_3067_zps2e9203c4.jpg)
Bottom row, left to right:
RWS Hobby 11.9 gr. Wadcutter
RWS MeisterKugeln 14.0 gr. Wadcutter
RWS Super Hollow Point 14.3 gr.
RWS Super Dome 14.3 gr.
RWS Super Point 14.3 gr.
Crosman Wadcutter 14.3 gr.
Crosman Premier 14.3 gr.
Crosman Premier Hollow Point 14.3 gr.
The wadcutters, in particular the Hobby, showed some shortening and expansion, with a slightly wider initial wound channel.... The RWS Hollow Point stripped off the nose ring, leaving the aft part to penetrate, and left a larger wound channel where the nose stripped off just after entry.... The Crosman Premier Hollowpoint acted basically like it was a roundnose....
Second photo, top row, right to left:
H&N FTT Round Wadcutter 15.7 gr.
H&N Crow Magnum Hollow Point 18.0 gr.
H&N Baracuda Rounded Point 21.0 gr.
H&N Baracuda Power Rounded Point, Plated, 20.7 gr.
H&N Baracuda Hunter Hollow Point 18.2 gr.
H&N Baracuda Hunter Extreme Cross Point 19.1 gr.
EunJin Pointed 32.1 gr.
EunJin Domed 28.4 gr.
H&N Rabbit Magnun 24.8 gr. (underneath, see below)
The Crow Magnum, Hunter, and Hunter Extreme all mushroomed well and created large, shallow wound channels....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/IMG_3061_zps50de3e90.jpg)
Bottom Row, left to right:
JSB Exact RS 13.4 gr.
JSB Exact Express 14.3 gr.
JSB Exact Jumbo 15.9 gr.
JSB Exact Heavy 18.1 gr.
JSB Exact Monster 25.4 gr.
JSB Straton Pointed 15.7 gr.
JSB Predator Polymag 16.2 gr.
(pellet escaped through side of block)
H&N Hollow Point 12.2 gr.
H&N FTT Round Nose 14.2 gr.
The JSB Pellets penetrated in order of their weight, as expected.... The Predator Polymag left the plastic tip behind and the front of the body folded back over the rest, leaving a wide wound channel.... The H&N Hollowpoint didn't expand, acting like a wadcutter....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/IMG_3063_zps0b0a718d.jpg)
This additional photo, from the other side of the second block, shows the EunJins and the Rabbit Magnum better.... The Rabbit Magnum (on the left)easily penetrated further than anything else, but left a very narrow wound channel.... It actually was quite a bit below the JSB RS pellet in the block, so they didn't affect each other....
Conclusions.... Generally speaking, from the same gun, heavier pellets of similar shape penetrate deeper.... There appears to be little difference in penetration between round nose (including the Crosman Premier HP) and pointed pellets of similar weight.... They all leave relatively narrow, tapered wound channels, and the pellet has little expansion or distortion in this medium.... Wadcutters (and the H&N 12.2 gr. Hollow Point) do not penetrate as far, and the initial part of the wound channel is larger in diameter, but again it is cone shaped, just wider and shallower.... The roundball and the bullet-shaped Rabbit Magnum left very long, narrow, nearly parallel-sided wound channels.... The H&N Crow Magnum expanded violently, leaving a short, wide wound channel, as did the two Baracuda Hunter Hollowpoints, the JSB Predator Polymag, and the RWS Hollowpoint.... All five of these hollowpoints left a bulge just after entry, where the expansion occurred....
I am extremely pleased with these results, not only because they seem to agree with our experiences of how pellets perform on game.... but also because of the clearly visible wound channel which is easy to photograph.... The shallowest penetration was the Crow Magnum at 39mm (1.5"), and the deepest was the Rabbit Magnum at 126 mm (5.0").... The series of five JSB Exacts started at 79 mm for the 13.4 gr. and went to 106 mm for the 25.4 gr. (3.1 - 4.2").... I think those are pretty realistic numbers for a 20 FPE gun, perhaps a bit low, but maybe pretty accurate for a combination of hide, muscle, and bone.... It's certainly in the ballpark, which means this medium is great for testing with....
Bob
-
Awesome stuff Bob and thanks for posting!!
Joe
-
Great comparison. Really shows which pellets are best for expansion or penetration! Thanks for posting.
-
Cool stuff. Not to change the subject but, where do you get Hatsan pellets ? And how do they shoot ?
I would like to try them in my AT44.
thanks
-
Very cool pictures.
Richard
-
Can't remember where I got them.... but they are (r@p.... *grin*....
Bob
-
Thanks for sharing! Very Interesting
-
Nice demonstration of various pellets!
-
Bob,
That's really neat, on a lot of fronts.
One of these days, I'm going to make several loafs of ballistics gel and do a "real world" expansion test by shooting through either a chicken wing or a starling, and then catching the pellet (or what's left of it) in the gel. The chicken wing probably makes the most sense as I can create a more "repeatable" experiment.
I'm going to have to be a bit more bored and have more time on my hands than I do now, however. :)
If someone wants to pre-empt me, you have my blessing! :)
M
-
Very cool indeed. At what range were the shots taken ?
-
One Inch !!! .... and before you start telling me I would get different results at 25 yards (or 100) because of the differing Ballistics Coefficients of the pellets, let me simply state that this is not a test of BCs, but of penetration and expansion at an IMPACT energy of 20 FPE.... It isn't valid at 1 FPE or 100 FPE either....
Bob
-
Thanks for the comprehensive pellet testing Bob. I find it interesting to compare impact results at a given power level. You can see how pellet shape/weight/hardness effects its downrange impact. The pictures are awesome too.
Andrew
-
Good information - Thanks for sharing.
-
One Inch !!! .... and before you start telling me I would get different results at 25 yards (or 100) because of the differing Ballistics Coefficients of the pellets, let me simply state that this is not a test of BCs, but of penetration and expansion at an IMPACT energy of 20 FPE.... It isn't valid at 1 FPE or 100 FPE either....
Bob
Bob,
I apologize, if I somehow struck a nerve by asking the above question. It certainly was not my intention. I re-read your post to make sure I didn't miss if you stated the range. It makes sense now, that you re-stated 20 FPE impact energy. You see I am fairly new to airguns, and try to ask questions to create awareness (especially for me) about what exactly I was looking at, and how it could be applied to my situation. As far as : "and before you start telling me" ..... I don't know enough (about airguns) to be able to do that. Thanks for all your posts, I enjoy reading them. And again I apologize, if my question came off wrong.
Jerry
-
Bob,
That is some great testing. Thanks for posting the pics. That clear soap makes for very cool pictures of the results. I too was wondering the distance but just out of curiosity, nothing more.
-
Its nice to have someone like you on this forum. Thank you for all of your time and knowledge.
-
This was a great read!
-
Thanks for putting that info together into a great reference post. Got it bookmarked to come back to (probably again and again).
-
Here are the recovered pellets from the soap tests above.... These are the only ones that showed any noticeable distortion or expansion.... All the others looked like they could literally be reused....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/IMG_3069_zpse8cb076c.jpg)
Top row, left to right:
JSB Predator Polymag - shed the tip when it expanded
H&N Crow Magnum - violent expansion
H&N Baracuda Hunter - violent expansion
H&N Baracuda Hunter Extreme- violent expansion
Bottom row, left to right:
Crosman Wadcutter - barely shortened, no noticable expansion
Gamo Match - some shortening and minimal expansion
RWS Hobby - lightest pellet, highest velocity, significantly shortened and a bit of expansion
RWS MeisterKugeln - some shortening and minimal expansion
RWS Super Hollow Point - shed the ring around the head, and the rear portion penetrated deeply
The wadcutters decelerated very rapidly, causing a larger entry wound, but penetration suffered.... good shocking power at close range....
These hollowpiont designs all did their job, and did it well.... The Crosman Premier Hollowpoint and the H&N Hollowpoint (both made of harder materials, with very small cavities) basically didn't expand or show a large entry wound.... ie at this velocity, they weren't working as intended....
Bob
-
I recast the soap into 2" thick blocks today (still 8 x 8") and tested my pair of HPA Varmint rifles, the 2260 shooting 37 FPE and the 2560 shooting 50 FPE.... again the testing was done at only 1" from the muzzle.... These guns are regulated, so the shot-to-shot velocity is within less than 1%.... The only variation in FPE would be due to bullet weight (heavier generally being slightly more).... I only tested pellets which I considered suitable for the power of these guns, which meant only over 18 gr. in the .22 cal (with the addition of the Predator Polymag because I knew you would be interested), and over 25 gr. in .25 cal.... I included two cast bullets from Mr. Hollowpoint in the .25 cal testing, but when I checked their energy it was down at only 40 FPE.... I suspect they either have high bore drag, or are suffering blowby in the .25 cal TJ's liner in the 2560, as the rest of the pellets all shot at 50+ FPE.... Here is a photo of the .22 cal block....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/22cal37FPE_zpsb118760d.jpg)
Left to right, entering from the bottom:
JSB Exact Heavy 18.1 gr.
JSB Exact Monster 25.4 gr.
H&N Baracuda 21.0 gr.
EunJin Dome 28.4 gr.
EunJin Point 32.1 gr.
H&N Rabbit Magnum 24.8 gr.
H&N Crow Magnum 18.0 gr. - mushroomed, leaving a small piece behind
JSB Predator Polymag 16.2 gr. - violently disintegrated into 4 pieces
Entering from the top:
H&N Baracuda Hunter 18.2 gr. (right) - mushroomed, least penetration
H&N Baracuda Hunter Extreme 19.1 gr. (left) - cross-point tip shredded, deeper penetration
Entry holes in bottom of block, same order as above (the 2 hollowpoints are on the right)....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/22cal_zps6f25e7a4.jpg)
Entry holes in top of block (both hollowpoints).... Hunter (left), Hunter Extreme (right)
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/22calback_zps8877bd09.jpg)
Additional photo of the Rabbit Magnum from the back as it curved down....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/22calRabMag_zps51332338.jpg)
Now for the .25 cal block....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/25cal50FPE_zps94f35004.jpg)
Left to right, entering from the bottom:
JSB Exact King 25.4 gr
Benjamin Sheridam Dome 27.8 gr.
H&N Baracuda 30.9 gr.
EunJin Dome 35.5 gr.
H&N Ram Point 26.8 gr. - made a larger entry hole
H&N Hunter Express 28.3 gr. - mushroomed, large wound channel
JSB Predator Polymag 25.8 gr. - violently disintegrated into 4 pieces
Entering from the top:
H&N Crow Magnum 26.1 gr. (right) - mushroomed, large wound channel
Mr. HollowPoint 58.8 gr. (left) - mushroomed after small entry hole
Entering from the left:
Mr. HollowPoint 50.0 gr. - mushroomed after small entry hole
Entry holes in bottom of block, same order as above (the 2 hollowpoints are on the right)....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/25cal_zps8c75abcf.jpg)
Entry holes in top of block (both hollowpoints - note the very small entry for the Mr. Hollowpoint bullets, right and below)....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/25calback_zps781d25c6.jpg)
Entry hole in side (Mr. HollowPoint 50.0 gr.)....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/25calside_zpsec9b72e8.jpg)
Please note that the photos of the entry holes are scaled to the same height so that you can compare the .22 cal to the (much larger) holes punched by the .25 cal....
Conclusions.... Generally speaking, from the same gun, heavier pellets of similar shape again penetrate deeper.... Round nosed pellets provide the deepest penetration, even deeper than the pointed pellets tested, and there is a significant difference with a "domed" pellet compared to a true round-nose, the domed penetrated less, even though it was heavier.... They all leave relatively narrow, tapered wound channels, and the pellet has little expansion or distortion in this medium.... All the hollowpoints left a wide bulge in the wound channel just after entry where the expansion occurred, and had much less penetration than did the pellets which didn't expand.... I don't know if the small entry hole for the Mr. Hollowpoint bullets is as a result of their shape, or the lower velocity of impact, but I suspect the latter.... They still expanded fully, despite a velocity of only 599 fps for the 50.0 gr. and 550 fps for the 58.8. gr....
The shallowest penetration in .22 cal was the Baracuda Hunter at 52 mm (2.0"), and the deepest was the JSB Exact Monster at 137 mm (5.4").... There are two clear groups, the pellets which didn't expand (116-137 mm or 4.6-5.4") and the hollowpoints (52-85 mm or 2.0-3.3").... In .25 cal, the shallowest penetration were the two Mr. HollowPoint bullets, but that was likely the result of their low velocity and energy.... Disregarding those, the shallowest was the Baracuda Hunter Extreme at 68 mm (2.7") and the deepest was the Baracuda at 158 mm (6.2").... Again there were two clear groups, the "penetrators" at 113-158 mm (4.5-6.2") and the "expanders" at 68-92 mm (2.7-3.6").... Generally speaking, the .25 cal had larger wound channels and greater penetration, while the velocities are similar to the .22 cal....
There is one thing that didn't show up in the photos that I must mention.... In .25 cal, the hollowpoints expanded so violently that they "bulged" the top of the 1.8" thick block of soap upwards about 3 mm (1/8") right above the point where they expanded.... I noticed a very small bulge (about 1 mm) above the track of the "penetrators" as well, just after entry.... This means the pellets are exerting force on the soap nearly an inch from the travel path.... something that did NOT happen in .22 cal.... This could be a result of the larger diameter of the pellet, the additional FPE (35% greater), or (more likely) both.... but it certainly shows how much harder the quarterbore hits....
This series of tests, while interesting, is only going to be of use at close range.... The 2260 HPA I used, while developing 37 FPE at the muzzle with JSB Heavies (the pellet I use), will see those pellets down to the 20 FPE level of the previous test at about 85 yards.... In between, the performance would also be in between these results and the previous ones.... I will be dissecting the blocks of soap and photographing the recovered pellets shortly....
Bob
-
Even with it being close range, this is still a great demonsration of the different characteristics of each pellet. Threads like this are why I stay at GTA.
-
Love it, keep the data coming.....
-
Here is the photo of the recovered pellets from the High Power tests.... Only the pellets showing noticable expansion or distortion are shown.... the others looked like they could literally be reused....
Top row is .22 cal, from left to right:
Predator Polymag - 7 pieces
Hunter Extreme - crosscut nose in 3 parts, plus skirt
Baracuda Hunter - nose nearly peeled off
Crow Magnum - nose completely folded over, center punched out
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/IMG_3107_zps6e5a723f.jpg)
Middle row is .25 cal, from left to right:
Predator Polymag - 8 pieces
Hunter Extreme - mushroomed with 4 jagged edges from crosscut
Mr. HollowPoint 58.8 gr. - nearly completely mushroomed
Crow Magnum - nose section inverted and separated, but was sitting over the skirt
Bottom row, also .25 cal, left to right:
EunJin Dome - some shortening, slight expansion
Mr. HollowPoint 50.0 gr. - completely mushroomed
H&N Ram Point - some shortening, lip at base of point forced back
Note: the H&N Ram Point had a small horizontal lip at the base of the point which acted a bit like a wadcutter and that is what caused the larger entry hole and wider cone shape of the wound channel.... The thin rim around the plastic tip on the Polymags blew apart into many small pieces at these velocities (950-1000 fps).... IMO they are at their best at a lower speed.... and in fact that may apply to all of the hollowpoint pellets, they are starting to come apart.... The Mr. Hollowpoint bullets, on the other hand look very interesting, they are behaving like a PB bullet (not surprising).... It will be interesting to see how they perform at higher velocities and energies....
Bob
-
This is great!
Thank you for posting.
-
Cool review 8) Very professional !
So the JSB Predator Polymag's are doing what has been promised right..?
As a conclusion for now, what would be your most favorite if you combine accuracy with penetration...?
-
Very interesting results all around; particularly interested in the Mr. Hollowpoints with such expansion.
-
Unfortunately, none of the hollowpoint pellets have proven to be accurate in any of my rifles with one exception.... My Hatsan .25 cal AT44-S10 likes the Polymags OK.... In all of my PCPs, the JSB Heavies or Kings are the most accurate.... I use nothing else for hunting as a result.... I haven't tested the Mr. Hollowpoints for accuracy in anything yet, that will have to wait for the summer....
Bob
-
Yes, the JSB Heavies are indeed very accurate and doing good with almost every airgun, even the pellet picky ones...
-
Very interesting stuff here. It's hard to know what a pellet will actually do once it has left your rifle. That kind of helps a bit to understand at least a bit of what might happen. Very impressive indeed...
-
Excellent write up. And thank u for all your time, effort, and $$$ spent on this project. It benefits all of us. Now get to work on the .177 tests. Lol! We'll be expecting the results right away. :) J/K! The squirrels in my neighborhood and I already knew the Crow Magnums are killers. I am surprised at how quickly they expanded. I know the only times I get pass through shots on squirrels is when I hit somewhere like the neck. Chest or head shots rarely leave the body. I generally find chest shot pellets on the opposite side just under the skin. The skin generally stretches on the backside requiring way more energy/velocities to pass through. And almost all recovered CM's have expanded greatly. So far they are my favorite hunting pellet. And I use the .177 H&N 9.26 gr.
-
You sure have a large variety of pellets.
Great experiment, thanks for sharing the results.
-
I pretty much purchase every new type of pellet that comes out.... with the exception of target types and non-lead.... It gets pretty frustrating sometimes when I virtually end up using only some weight of JSB Exact in every gun I own but one (my B-26 prefers H&N FTTs).... I applaud H&N for their recent Hunter and Hunter Extreme pellets, they are trying to provide a long range hollowpoint.... I just wish they shot better in my guns....
Bob
-
Awesome job! I'm going to buy some of that soap ASAP.
-
I applaud H&N for their recent Hunter and Hunter Extreme pellets, they are trying to provide a long range hollowpoint.... I just wish they shot better in my guns....
Bob
I almost second that... the Baracuda Hunter is very close to the Baracuda giving me sub 1/3" groups at 35 meters the Hunter sub˝"...
But the extreme and the crow magnum is crappy in my HW100. BUT a friend also got crappy groups in his Royal400, but turning the powerwheel down to 20ft/p he got "decent" grouping..
The same happened with RWS Hollowpoints which are the worst in mine... 4-5" groups at 35 meters..... he got it down to a little over an inch..
And I'm NOT shooting HOT, the RWS is at 270m/s and the Baracudas is from 235-245m/s depending on the type
-
Great test Bob, thanks for sharing.
Tom
-
Thanks Bob for all the wonderful info. I bet you had a great time doing this test. It will be of much help to many of us.
-
I did a few more tests today, with cast bullets at higher FPE levels.... I started by adding the data for the solid and hollowpoints I recently cast from the RCBS 50 gr. mold I purchased, shooting them from my 2560 regulated PCP, and once again, for whatever reason, the energy level is only about 40 FPE (instead of 50), similar to what I got with the Mr. Hollowpoints.... The bullets I cast weighed 52.7 gr. for the solid, and 46.4 gr. for the hollowpoint, and here are the results....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/25cal40FPE_zpsa8200184.jpg)
You can see that the solid penetrated within an inch of the far side of the block, easily the deepest penetration I had seen to date.... I shot 2 of the hollowpoints, on from each side, and they both penetrated a bit deeper than the Mr. Hollowpoints I tested at the same FPE level, leaving a small entry hole and a similarly shaped wound channel.... I then pulled out my .25 cal Disco, which shoots about 85 FPE, and tested the same two bullets, plus the 50.0 and 58.8 gr. Mr. Hollowpoints.... The first solid went right through the 8" block of soap, but I had a second block handy, so I turned the block 90* and shot through the other block to produce the channel coming from the right side in the photo below....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/25cal85FPE_zps77600722.jpg)
The channel from the right is the 52.7 gr. solid, after already penetrating 8" of soap in another block.... The tracks from the bottom, left to right are:
46.4 gr. Lyman hollowpoint
52.7 gr. Lyman solid (first shot, straight through the block)
50.0 gr. Mr. Hollowpoint
58.8 gr. Mr. Hollowpoint
You can see the huge wound cavities about an inch into the block where the hollowpoints exploded.... The block was bulged a lot right above those cavities, which measured between 3/4-1" across, and had numerous imbedded bullet fragments.... Here are photos of the recovered bullets....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/IMG_3127_zps12baa35c.jpg)
Top row, left to right, all shot at 85 FPE:
46.4 gr. Lyman hollowpoint
50.0 gr. Mr. Hollowpoint
58.8 gr. Mr. Hollowpoint
Bottom row, left to right:
52.7 gr. Lyman solid shot at 85 FPE
52.7 gr. Lyman solid shot at 40 FPE
46.4 gr. Lyman hollowpoint shot at 40 FPE
repeat of above HP @ 40 FPE
In summary, the 52.7 gr. Lyman solid has easily the greatest penetration I have seen to date, 175 mm (6.9") at 40 FPE and 318 mm (12.5") at 85 FPE.... interestingly just about exactly proportional to the FPE level.... The 46.4 gr. Lyman hollowpoints I cast performed well at 40 FPE, mushrooming completely.... At 85 FPE, all the hollowpoints came apart, which really surprised me.... The velocities ranged from just over 800 to just over 900 fps, depending on bullet weight, and it just shows how much damage a hollowpoint can do at those impact velocities and energies.... If I want to test anything over 100 FPE, I'm going to need bigger blocks of soap....
Bob
-
Wow, fantastic info and pictures. This confirms the pointlessness (no pun intended) of pointed pellets. Basically no better penetration and a worse BC.
-
nice tests
what kind of game is about the same hardness of the soap?
other than the bones isnt game soft?
-
very nice mr bob , one guy like you is worth ten like me who dont have the innovative mind to have thought of this as a medium , i also have about every pellet known to mankind and this is a really nice way to tet them and besides now we know you have the cleanest pellets around!!!! keep up the great work , wondering how much id need to make to test some bigbores
-
I recast the soap into some 5" x 9" x 3" loaf pans last night.... Putting the metal pans in the freezer for a half hour let the soap fall right out of the tapered pans.... I stacked the two blocks end to end, and this turned out perfect, as combined with the meplats on the .257 cal bullets, the penetration was not an issue, even at 130 FPE.... The solids penetrated completely through the first block and a couple of inches into the second, leaving the other end of that block for testing the hollowpoints.... Here is a photo....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/257calat130FPE_zpscc93e88c.jpg)
From the left, the upper is the 87.2 gr. RCBS solid, the lower the 73.4 gr. Lyman solid.... both having already penetrated 9" of soap....
From the right, the upper is the 77.2 gr. RCBS hollowpoint, the lower the 66.0 gr. Lyman hollowpoint....
The solids flattened completely on the nose, and had less penetration at 130 FPE than the lighter round nose solid I tested yesterday at 85 FPE, even though the velocities were similar.... In addition, the entry hole was larger, and the heavier 87 gr. bullet, which had a larger meplat, created a larger entry (larger actually than the hollowpoints) and had slightly less penetration than did the lighter 73 gr. solid.... I think this clearly shows the effectiveness of a meplat in controlling overpenetration and creating a larger wound channel, even without siginficant expansion occurring.... Once again, the two hollowpoints blew apart, with the fragments only penetrating 1/2 to 2/3 the distance of the base, but creating a massive wound channel.... Here are the recovered bullets....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/IMG_3133_zps68d4ee7d.jpg)
The top row is the Lyman "65 gr.", and the bottom row is the RCBS "85 gr." Cowboy....
On the left is an unfired solid, in the middle a recovered solid, and on the right a recovered hollowpoint....
The hollowpoints were cast using the largest pins that Erik supplied with his hollowpoint conversions.... If I used a smaller pin, the bullets would be less likely to come apart at these velocities.... The solids penetrated 265 mm (10.4") for the 73 gr. and 255 mm (10.0") for the 87 gr..... The hollowpoints were also nearly identical to each other, 110 mm for the 66 gr. and 113 mm for the 77 gr. (4.3-4.4").... At some point I will cast some hollowpoints using a smaller diameter and/or shorter pin.... and I plan to also test these different configurations at various velocities to simulate different ranges.... I'll likely wait until I determine what the downrange velocities are (ie the BC) so that I can simulate impacts at about 50 and 100 yards....
Bob
-
I think the soap is a pretty good "average" to represent an animal.... It is maybe a little firmer than muscle, definitely firmer than guts, but not as tough as hide and definitely not bone.... It's surprising how deep a knife penetrates into it when you stab a block of it.... it may not be too different than muscle tissue.... Overall, I haven't found anything else that comes even close, especially when you consider the ease of recasting/reusing it, into any shape you want, the ease of using it and cleaning it up, the temperature stability, and the clarity which enables such stunning photographs to be taken.... If you wanted to, you could even cut it into sections to measure and analyse the size and shape of the wound channel.... The only thing I don't know is how accurate the mushrooming/destruction of the hollowpoints is.... If anything, it seems excessive, but I have nothing to base that on but preconceptions/expectations.... no hard data on animals.... Overall, the usefulness in comparing pellets/bullets is hard to dispute....
Bob
-
Bob, if you want to compare the pellets actual penetration and mushroomin affects go pick up a cheap pork picnic (uncooked) or rump roast, you won't be able to take pictures of wound channel quite as well but you can carefully remove the pellets and examine them for expansion...
-
Unless I missed it posted above. Could you please post a link to the soap you bought. Thanks.
-
Thanks Bob,
I have been using glycerin soap for a while to see how different pellets behave. The glycerin, imo, shows better the actual behavior of pellets on impact. Play-doah is play-dahhhhhh. I like the pics of the actual pellets you recovered.
Joe
-
I pretty much purchase every new type of pellet that comes out.... with the exception of target types and non-lead.... It gets pretty frustrating sometimes when I virtually end up using only some weight of JSB Exact in every gun I own but one (my B-26 prefers H&N FTTs).... I applaud H&N for their recent Hunter and Hunter Extreme pellets, they are trying to provide a long range hollowpoint.... I just wish they shot better in my guns....
Bob
I love the Hunter Extremes. I have pics of a nutter I got at 20 yds. 1st pic is entry, 2nd pic is exit with hunter extreme to show size, 3rd pic is the recovered pellet---it lodged into the tree 14 inches behind the nutter. Lots of velocity.
Then the next set shows the expansion of 3 Hunter Extremes I shot into play-dahhhhh.
Joe
-
Unless I missed it posted above. Could you please post a link to the soap you bought. Thanks.
Hey Tater,
I get mine at Dollar Tree in the bar soaps...Pear is the name. 1.00 a bar. I melt it down in the microwave. I do 40 second increments and give it a shake or stir until it's all melted. It's cheap stuff, but it works well. You can't stick it in the freezer to cool it off...it clouds up.
Joe
-
I got my melt-and-pour soap here.... http://www.newdirectionsaromatics.ca/melt-and-pour-soap-base-clear-p-598.html (http://www.newdirectionsaromatics.ca/melt-and-pour-soap-base-clear-p-598.html)
US Store.... http://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/melt-and-pour-soap-base-clear-p-598.html (http://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/melt-and-pour-soap-base-clear-p-598.html)
I bought the 12 brick case.... It takes 2 bricks (4 lbs.) for one 8 x 8 x 2 or 5 x 9 x 3 block....
Another source.... http://secure.mycart.net/catalogs/catalog.asp?prodid=5029368&showprevnext=1 (http://secure.mycart.net/catalogs/catalog.asp?prodid=5029368&showprevnext=1)
Likely the same stuff, I would think....
Bob
-
I got my melt-and-pour soap here.... http://www.newdirectionsaromatics.ca/melt-and-pour-soap-base-clear-p-598.html (http://www.newdirectionsaromatics.ca/melt-and-pour-soap-base-clear-p-598.html)
US Store.... http://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/melt-and-pour-soap-base-clear-p-598.html (http://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/melt-and-pour-soap-base-clear-p-598.html)
I bought the 12 brick case.... It takes 2 bricks for one 8 x 8 x 2 or 5 x 9 x 3 block....
Another source.... http://secure.mycart.net/catalogs/catalog.asp?prodid=5029368&showprevnext=1 (http://secure.mycart.net/catalogs/catalog.asp?prodid=5029368&showprevnext=1)
Likely the same stuff, I would think....
Bob
Thanks, Bob...even better price then the crud I get. I am gonna order some.
Joe
-
This is a slice of fried gold for the DIY/Mad Scientist ballistics enthusiast.
It's also a great spectator sport!!! :)
M
-
Great stuff, Bob! Always amazed(and jealous) of the time and dedication you put into this sport. Maybe when(if) I retire?????
pv
-
Awesome info Bob!
Done the same thing in .30 yet ;)
Bruce
-
No .177 testing (although I have a TON of pellets).... and nothing over .257 so far.... Eventually, I hope....
I would think the .177 testing might parallel the .22 results I started with.... perhaps it might be more interesting to test the hollowpoints at different velocities using my Uber-Pumper.... hmmmmmmmmm....
Bob
-
Thank you Bob for the links and Joe for the idea.
-
No .177 testing (although I have a TON of pellets).... and nothing over .257 so far.... Eventually, I hope....
I would think the .177 testing might parallel the .22 results I started with.... perhaps it might be more interesting to test the hollowpoints at different velocities using my Uber-Pumper.... hmmmmmmmmm....
Bob
Bob you are the mad scientist....
-
Here is a comparison I'm sure you've been waiting for -.22 Rimfire bulllets..... I initially used two 5" x 9" x 3" blocks of soap end to end, but the only one that required that was the .22LR Solid (140 FPE).... Here are the photos....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/22LR_zps73eeb735.jpg)
The photo above shows the track from the 40 gr. Long Rifle HV Solid at the top (straight through), with the other two being LR High Velocity Hollow Points (135 FPE).... I cut one wound channel open and tried to highlight the cavity with a marker, you can see the point where it mushroomed and caused the wound channel to expand....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/22Rimfire_zpsc0419ff0.jpg)
The second photo show the captured LR High Velocity solid, about 2" into the block and turned sideways from the left.... From the right, top to bottom, are the .22 Short High Velocity 29 gr. Solid (75 FPE), the 27 gr. HV Short (73 FPE), and then a 29 gr. CB Cap ~ 710 fps (32 FPE), also spun around.... Below are the recovered bullets....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/22RimfireBullets_zps7b9da456.jpg)
Top row, left to right: Short HV Hollowpoint, then the two Long Rifle HV Hollowpoints....
Bottom row, left to right: CB Cap, Short Solid, LR Solid....
All the High Velocity Hollow Points performed perfectly, although one of the Long Rifles shed the nose portion in fragments (one of which I lost).... The solids showed no expansion, although the Long Rifle was starting to flatten.... Now the big question, how did these compare to the Air Rifles?.... This requires looking at the .22 Short and Long Rifle Rimfires separately....
Compared the .22 Short High Velocity Rimfire, there are several notable comparisons in penetration....
.22 Short Rimfire 29 gr. Solid @ 75 FPE - 149 mm
.22 cal JSB Monster 25.3 gr. @ 37 FPE - 137 mm
.25 cal H&N Baracuda 30.9 gr. @ 50 FPE - 158 mm
.22 Short Rimfire 27 gr. Hollowpoint @ 73 FPE - 90 mm
.22 cal H&N Baracuda Hunter Extreme @ 37 FPE - 85 mm
.25 cal H&N Crow Magnum @ 50 FPE - 85 mm
.25 cal JSB Predator Polymag @ 50 FPE - 92 mm
Similar penetrations to .22 Short Rimfire amnumition are available with PCP airguns of power levels that are relatively common today, at very close range.... As expected, the .22 cal Airgun at 37 FPE outpenetrated the .22 CB Cap at 32 FPE, with all solid pellets.... However, the pellets used by these guns will see the power drop off relatively quickly with range, compared to a .22 Rimfire bullet.... Now let's look at the .22 Long Rifle, and more powerful .25 cal airguns shooting bullets not pellets and compare the penetration....
.22 LR Rimfire 40 gr. RN Solid @ 140 FPE - 277 mm (turned sideways)
.25 cal RCBS 53 gr. RN Solid @ 85 FPE - 318 mm
.25 cal Lyman 73 gr. FN Sollid @ 130 FPE - 265 mm (nose flattened)
.25 cal RCBS 87 gr. FN Solid @ 130 FPE - 255 mm (nose flattened)
.22 LR Rimfire 37 gr. Hollowpoint @ 135 FPE - 136 mm
.25 cal Mr. HollowPoint 50 gr. HP @ 85 FPE - 105 mm
.25 cal Lyman 66 gr. Hollowpoint @ 130 FPE - 110 mm
.25 cal RCBS 77 gr. Hollowpoint @ 130 FPE - 113 mm
Comparing solid bullets is relatively easy.... although the 50 gr. @ 85 FPE penetrated further relative to its power level.... Perhaps had the .22 LR Rimfire not spun around.... and if the heavier airgun bullets didn't have meplats and flattened.... we would have seen more consistent results.... However, when you consider they all penetrated over 10", does it really matter for the size game they would be used on?....
Looking at the hollowpoints, just based on penetration, the Rimfire bullet comes out on top, but it has a very tiny HP cavity, and stayed largely intact.... The airgun bullets, with their large HP cavities, all came apart quite explosively just after impact, creating a much larger wound channel than the rimfire bullet, just not as deep.... I would pretty much say call it a draw, FPE for FPE between the .257 cal airgun and the .22 LR rimfire.... Something else to consider is that the bullets will also carry just about as well.... so we're back to the "Dangerous Within One Mile" warning on the rimfire boxes.... A modern .25 cal airgun can indeed be the equivalent of a .22 rimfire....
Bob
-
I finally got around to testing some .177 pellets.... With the .22 cal results being so predictable, basically if it doesn't expand, the heavier the pellet the deeper it penetrates for a given FPE level, I only tested the hollowpoints in .177.... I did test one JSB Exact Express 7.8 gr. Round Nosed pellet at several velocities, and it far outpenetrated all the hollowpoints at each power level tested.... I started at 12 FPE, went to 15 FPE, and then tested the two heaviest pellets at 18 FPE.... Here is the photo of those tests....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/177HPs12-18FPE_zps69270d31.jpg)
From the bottom, shot at 15 FPE, left to right:
RWS Super HollowPoint 7.1 gr.
H&N Terminator 7.1 gr.
Crosman Destroyer 8.0 gr.
Crosman Premier HP 8.0 gr.
JSB Predator Polymag 8.2 gr.
H&N Crow Magnum 8.8 gr.
H&N Baracuda Hunter 10.2 gr.
Benjamin Discovery HP 10.5 gr.
From the top, shot at 12 FPE, same order, but right to left....
At 18 FPE; from the left Benjamin Discovery HP 10.5 gr.; from the right H&N Baracuda Hunter 10.2 gr.
I then used another block, and tested the lighter hollowpoints at 7 FPE and 9 FPE, as follows:
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/177HPs7-9FPE_zps0af040c9.jpg)
From the bottom, shot at 9 FPE, left to right:
RWS Super HollowPoint 7.1 gr.
H&N Terminator 7.1 gr.
Crosman Destroyer 8.0 gr.
JSB Predator Polymag 8.2 gr.
H&N Crow Magnum 8.8 gr.
JSB Exact Express 7.8 gr. (for comparison)
From the top, shot at 7 FPE, same order, but right to left....
Here is a photo of the recovered pellets at 12 FPE (top row), 15 FPE (middle row) and 18 FPE (the two in the bottom row)....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/177HollowpointPellets_zpsc368c87d.jpg)
Again, same order, left to right by columns:
RWS Super HollowPoint 7.1 gr. (nose peeled off)
H&N Terminator 7.1 gr. (nose peels off at 15 FPE)
Crosman Destroyer 8.0 gr. (nose peels off at 15 FPE)
Crosman Premier HP 8.0 gr. (starting to mushroom at 15 FPE)
JSB Predator Polymag 8.2 gr. (nose rolled back over body, tip left behind)
H&N Crow Magnum 8.8 gr. (nose peels off at 15 FPE)
H&N Baracuda Hunter 10.2 gr. (starting to mushroom at 15 FPE, more at 18 FPE)
Benjamin Discovery HP 10.5 gr. (just starting to shorten at 18 FPE)
Here is a photo of the pellets I tested at 7 FPE (top row) and 9 FPE (bottom row):
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Ballistics/177HollowpointPellets7-9FPE_zpsd1abe0e8.jpg)
Again from left to right:
RWS Super HollowPoint 7.1 gr. (nose peels off at 9 FPE)
H&N Terminator 7.1 gr. (nicely mushroomed)
Crosman Destroyer 8.0 gr. (nose rolled over at 9 FPE)
JSB Predator Polymag 8.2 gr. (just starting to open at 7 FPE)
H&N Crow Magnum 8.8 gr. (nicely mushroomed)
Careful examination of how the expansion of these hollowpoints progresses as the FPE increases will allow you to pick one that performs well in your gun.... Don't forget that these are the IMPACT energies, not at the muzzle, so you have to allow for that.... All five of the pellets in the second set look like they will expand reliably at 7 to 12 FPE, although the RWS SuperHollowPoint sheds the nose portion at 9 FPE or over.... By the time you get to 15 FPE, most of the pellets that work well at low speeds are coming apart, with the nose portion peeling over the base and being left behind.... That's not all bad, as the base continues to penetrate, however.... At that energy, the Crosman Premier HollowPoint is finally starting to expand, as is the H&N Baracuda Hunter.... The Benjamin Discovery HP looks like it might start expanding at ~20 FPE impact energy .... but there aren't many guns that can launch it hard enough to have it arrive at over 900 fps, and I would question the accuracy if they did.... Don't expect it to expand....
Bob
-
Absolutely love it Bob, great work...
-
I pretty much purchase every new type of pellet that comes out.... with the exception of target types and non-lead.... It gets pretty frustrating sometimes when I virtually end up using only some weight of JSB Exact in every gun I own but one (my B-26 prefers H&N FTTs).... I applaud H&N for their recent Hunter and Hunter Extreme pellets, they are trying to provide a long range hollowpoint.... I just wish they shot better in my guns....
Bob
I love the Hunter Extremes. I have pics of a nutter I got at 20 yds. 1st pic is entry, 2nd pic is exit with hunter extreme to show size, 3rd pic is the recovered pellet---it lodged into the tree 14 inches behind the nutter. Lots of velocity.
Then the next set shows the expansion of 3 Hunter Extremes I shot into play-dahhhhh.
Joe
I tried some .25 hunter extremes today. Ordered them last week from PA after I ran out of JSB Kings My Lonestar loves JSB's and shoots Polymags one dot down and one dot right off my JSB's scope settings ..both group great ;D
The hunter extreames shot GREAT! Typlically one dot lower than JSB....but all 3 10 shot groups were tight at 40 and 50 yards. Even picked off a starling out at 45yards. I decided to shoot a small painters bucket with a metal oil catch pan behind it at 65 yards. The pellets blew through the bucket, left a quarter size exit hole and dented a 16 of a inch on the metal!
Think I'm sold....getting ready for Ground hog season ;)
-
very cool thread,
now subscribed.
-
Bob, I just spent the half hour reading thru this thread, and buddy you have sure put some great info out for everyone. THANK YOU!
I'm gonna have to sit down and go back thru it again closely, to appreciate it more. I think we all can examine and relate to the good information, based on our own FPE and Caliber rifle.
THANKS AGAIN!
-
Incredible amount of very useful information here bob. Very impressive indeed. My hats is off to you sir. I have been picking over the data for over an hour so far. The time, effort, you spent is outstanding. I will try my best to put as much of it to use as i can, Thank You !!
-
As long as you guys remember that the data is only valid for the FPE stated, and you must use the impact energy, not the muzzle energy, I think you'll find it valuable.... Once you move out to some distance from the muzzle, you have to remember that round nosed pellets will retain more of their initial energy than others, because of their superior Ballistics Coefficient....
Bob
-
Have you ever tried Norica Killers?
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=3JxZY01_hAVNhM&tbnid=v7kxDzCtjnIxaM:&ved=0CAUQjBwwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pelletperfect.co.uk%2Fimage%2Fcache%2Fdata%2FNorica%2520Killer%2520p-300x300.JPG&ei=yl6xUYD4JOWTiAL1pIGwBg&psig=AFQjCNEgbCzQxifKyIACBp49GLQWpgRxhg&ust=1370665034655522)
-
I just got back into airgunning ~2 months ago & joined GTA <1 month ago.
Kinda belated, but a big THANK YOU for all the time & effort that went into producing this post. Absolutely fantastic! And, so coincidentally very topical for me.
I've been going thru pellets in .22 & .25 caliber trying to find the best combination of accuracy & expansion or penetration & this post goes a long way toward helping me settle on just a few pellets per caliber to use. Thanks to your testing I've pretty much settled on the JSB Exact Heavy @ 18.13gr & the H&N Baracuda Hunter/Beeman Kodiak HP @ 18.21gr in .22 caliber. As for .25 caliber? I'll use my .22 caliber selection as a starting point for those as well.
Thanks again!
-
Incredible amount of very useful information here bob. Very impressive indeed. My hats is off to you sir. I have been picking over the data for over an hour so far. The time, effort, you spent is outstanding. I will try my best to put as much of it to use as i can, Thank You !!
x2 Thanks Bob.
-
I really do think that the information here is useful and valuable.
not to mention the amount of effort Bob put into it for the benefit of the membership here.
It's a shame that it falls off of the radar and into the abyss of older threads.
I would love to see this made into a sticky, so that it is easier to find for future reference.
Can I get a "second" on that ?
Thanks Bob for all that you do to promote this forum, and the help and education you always provide to us.
-
I really do think that the information here is useful and valuable.
not to mention the amount of effort Bob put into it for the benefit of the membership here.
It's a shame that it falls off of the radar and into the abyss of older threads.
I would love to see this made into a sticky, so that it is easier to find for future reference.
Can I get a "second" on that ?
Thanks Bob for all that you do to promote this forum, and the help and education you always provide to us.
I agree, that a very good idea.