GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: drewciferpike on February 08, 2013, 02:58:16 PM
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I love how after I buy a springer (and haven't even had a chance to sight-in the scope), my father thinks I know everything about AGs. We all know the truth, so I'd like to turn to the true darksiders to pick your brains for your experiences.
My dad's currently using my old 760 pumper to shoot pigeons at work (in a warehouse), but he's hating the lack of a fast follow-up, and all the pumping. The first thing that popped into my mind was a QB78 from MM. I've seen some of your crazy pics showing off 25-yard sub-.5" groups, and he'll like the ability to get 30+ shots off of carts, at a minimum.
At this point, he's going just for pest control, so no real target shooting. He probably won't want to get a bunch of support gear, so I'm not sure if he should even pursue bulk-fill or HPA. I just got off the phone with the fire dept. just up the road from my folks', and they will fill SCBA for free. The price-point of a tuned QB is probably around what he's willing to spend on a rifle. That said, if we convince him that he needs to spend a little more for a gun that will tie his shoes for him, he'd probably be down with that, too.
So, for pigeons, rats, jackrabbits, etc. (nothing bigger than that, probably), I'm assuming he'll want .22. I guess with wadcutters, he won't have to worry too much about shooting through to the building if he's good about shot placement (which shouldn't be a problem, as he's redonkulously accurate with just about any gun he touches... it's actually kind of disgusting... haha). Should he consider .177 if he can get bulk-filled? Or am I thinking about this all wrong, and he should go with heavy .177s? I am clueless.
For filling, should he just stick with small carts, or pop up to paintball tanks (either CO2 or HPA)? I have no idea what fill options all of you are using, so I'd definitely like to hear what works for you, especially in the field (he definitely won't ever be shooting off a bench). I've been reading about the need to wait 20-30 seconds between shots, with CO2, and my father indicated that he wasn't a fan of that. Does that mean HPA? What would he need--starting from scratch--to have a 79 on HPA? I'm down with hearing about manual pumps, or using the fire dept...
Or am I being an idiot, and he should just get a PCP with a manual pump?
Learn me, please!
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QB78 modded with the addition of a 79 adaptor block, Ninja 3,000/850psi HPA tank and set up for Field Target,
[smg id=1248]
John
How do you fill your tank? A compressor at home? Manual pump? If the Fire dept. only fills SCBA, how does that change things, planning-wise? I just need to give him a total-dollar amount, and see what he's willing to do. If he knows that I'll mooch off his compressor, maybe he'll get one(?).
I don't want to lead him into something that he doesn't really use, very much, but I don't want him to hate a setup, either.
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Mike M charges $160 for a pump which is very fair. At $150 for a tuned QB79, you should have a tack driver. Ninja 13ci 3000 psi regulated to 1100 will get you 60-70 shots for about $85 delivered.
All you need then are some optics for old eyes and you're set. So for $395 plus scope and pellets you're good to go with a gun that's a LOT of fun and quite accurate. I like mine better than the Disco.
I've linked the tank and my given my QB story elsewhere but Wicked on Ebay is great.
Mark
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here is my thoughts, i am fairly new to airgunning, went and bought an xl1100 against advice to start out with a MM qb 78 i bought my first qb 78 177 off a member the gun shot good i sent it back to MM for a full tune when i got it back after he crowned the barrel it was awesome!!! power was grat but i dont care for 177 so i gave it to a friend so he can shoot with me, we both bought springers and we both got rid of them.
I ordered my second qb 78 from MM i spent many hours on the phone and sending many texts i wanted a 22 but decided to get the standard ruifle that has a basic tune from Mike. service was excellent had the rifle in a few days. i immediately put a BSA sweet 22 scope on it using some UTG medium rings and my groups have been impressive, got my note on the inside of the box and said cphp 14.3 were moving at 618 fps, since in texas you cant hunt much with airguns i decided to leave it as is. to say the least i love this gun it is so accurate and fun to shoot. id recomend just the standard gun to start, you can always send it back for an upgraded tune get it in 22 cal makes loading alot easier the trigger is easy to adjust MM walked me through it. i just shot a 100 shot group at 25 yards into less then a 1.5 inch group using gamo match diablos weighing 15.3 grains
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How cold is it where he shoots.
Seems obvious...but consider that while the North East is having a very nasty blizzard, I'm down here near 70F (and its Mardi Gras), so its not as obvious a question as it seems.
CO2 for that use might be a good choice...if he's not in Fargo or some other frozen wasteland.
Also, would pass throughs ding or hole something he'd rather not have holed? Spend some time ratting in a RoadWay express station, and holing the roof, walls, or dinging the freight was a "no-no", which had to be included in rifle/ammo selection.
Had to use pretty low power, big slow pellets in order to kill rats, but not screw up the building.
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Im in southeast texas and through the winter it never got cold enough to affect co2, he has a valid point from what i understand HPA isnt really affected by cold co2 is although i havent seen any difference yet in texas
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Wa lucky the station owner didn't care about a stray "dent"...just didn't want to fix holes in his shack of a station. 10 foot pound .22 with wad cuter ammo worked for me on the loading dock and inside the station (although you really really didn't want them to crawl off and die in the walls).
Spent a little time in Tyler, which isn't that far from you...but long-long ago (like 40 years ago).
Considering what he wants to do, and the repeat shots, might look at the Hatsan PCP's (pretty cheap right now). Can get whatever help you need to detune it to non-wharehouse holing power here.
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Sorry for the wait; I've been driving to a work event, so I just now got to see everyone's responses. Thanks, folks!
1. Mark, I brain-farted and didn't even realize he could use a manual pump with an installed HPA bottle on a 78/79. Considering the price and performance of a setup like that, it might be just what the doctor ordered. I've looked at other threads with people's HPA setups, and I assumed they were filling off of SCUBA or SCBA. If he can fill the bottle with a pump, and have 50+ shots, he'll be beyond happy.
2. While driving, I talked with my dad a little more, so I have a better idea of what he's wanting. He was originally using a 22LR inside the building (haha), so I guess he doesn't really care about pass-throughs. After I looked up and explained CA's hunting regs, he's interested in joining me while pursuing resident small game (including turkeys), so a power-tuned .22 from MM will be best (and fits with the HPA track, as MM has stated in another thread that HPA will give about 100fps more over CO2). We'll never be hunting cooler than 35 degrees, and usual cold-weather hunting in the Valley is around 45 degrees. The rest of the time it should be warmer, but he's not into the CO2 route, really, so I guess it doesn't matter.
3. I am lusting after Ribbonstone's .25 HPA conversion. That rifle makes me feel funny in the tummy.
4. Assuming I can find a regulator that we can adjust, to play around with power/shot-count ratios, what my dad will need is:
- MM-tuned QB78/79 (though I'm assuming that if it's going to get a 13ci bottle, I might as well go with the 79?)*
- Pump from MM, or a Hill, or whatever... I have no idea, as long as it's not a bicycle pump :D
- the right fittings for the pump
- 13ci or 22ci 3000psi bottle (as long as it's not more than 2" in diameter)
- regulator that can adjust from 850 to 1100 psi (in case we want to play and see what my dad likes)
- an on/off valve (?)... I've seen this mentioned twice (Ribbonstone), so this is a no-brainer?
- am I forgetting anything? More safety "stuff"? I've seen posts discussing blow-out mechanisms. Is that even needed?
I guess if my dad wants to get more power, eventually, he can swap out some parts and go with a regulator with 1100+ psi?
*I'm going to call MM, tomorrow, and see if a 78 deluxe would have any issues... I'm assuming 1mm more on the barrel won't make a difference, but I have no idea... I think my dad would like the open sights and beech stock... once he realizes what a crazy gun he has, he'll want a scope.
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That .25 conversion has been through 4 lives. Bulk fill QB (o it looked like any other QB), converted it to a QB78 co2 tanker, converted that to an HPA bottle, and currently the .25 top half sits on a PCP tube.
Can do a search here, but do feel the QB79 limits high power in HPA. The only air you can count on for a shot is that which is between the regulator and the valve (came to call it “on deck” air). If I were to use a 79 and go for high power, would probably just get a 1500psi out-put bottle (that being all the pressure I’d care to put into a co2 designed gun).
For the $, it’s going to be hard to beat a Discovery .22., but he wouldn’t get 50 shots. He could get 50 (and likely more) shots from a 13ci HPA bottle.
Are enough folks here to help out with the building process. May get some elaborate suggestions that would need a whole lot of machine work, but you can sort out the suggestions for the ones that seem easy enough to do.
None of mine were complex conversions, but I was not going for max power with them. Generally I’ll tune for whatever power I can get with as near stock parts as I can, stopping at 100 shots per fill. So the .177’s, 5mm, and .22 versions run in the 12 to 18 foot pound range. I also don't tend to shoot the bottles as far down as some others, stoppping at 1000psi with an 850psi reg and at 1500 with a 1250psi reg., so am sure there's another 20-25 shots that could be had.
May be adults, but am betting a father-son build would be a good thing.
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Can do a search here, but do feel the QB79 limits high power in HPA. The only air you can count on for a shot is that which is between the regulator and the valve (came to call it “on deck” air). If I were to use a 79 and go for high power, would probably just get a 1500psi out-put bottle (that being all the pressure I’d care to put into a co2 designed gun).
Didn't think about that. More and more, this sounds like the way he'll like to go. I definitely think a team build is in order, as he's dealt with some family issues, recently, and this would be good for us to pep him back up.
I'm more in line with what you're describing, R: Get good performance, but staying as true to stock as possible. If my dad wants a FPE machine, I'll tell him to get a .25 PCP. I think having Mike tune a 78 or 78d and going with a 13ci bottle will cover a lot of bases for my dad. If he also wants a PCP, he's already got a pump, then.
Though we are huge DIYers, we don't have access to a machine shop, so simpler builds will be the way to go, for us.
If he's consistently getting 18fpe (or even a little more), I think that's great. I don't want to mod a Camry into a Veyron wannabe... haha.
I'll be talking with Mike in about 2 hours, so I appreciate the feedback!
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I had a GREAT call with Mike. He confirmed what I got from all of you.
I'll see my dad this week and show him pics and explain it all. If he gives me the green light, I'll order everything and then be jealous of his awesome rifle. Haha.
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So, what did you end up with? Have y'all got the rifle and such yet?
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Ugh... Sorry... I totally didn't maintain this thread!
I received my dad's new .22 QB79 and high-pressure pump from Mike Melick on Friday. I have the 13ci paintball bottle and 1100psi reg on the rifle, and I've shot it in the garage to make sure it's holding air and firing well. (On that note, the thing is shooting clean through the Sacramento phone book with CPHPs, so I can't wait to test some pellets and get it on a chrony to see what it's really doing.
I don't know when that'll happen, but I'll create a new thread when I get everything locked in.