GTA
Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 => Topic started by: pelon87 on January 26, 2013, 01:51:48 AM
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i was watching random video on youtube and came a cross this is that pump safe to use or will it brake soon ? ps not my video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yamoWCfwdhQ#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yamoWCfwdhQ#ws)
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Hmmmm! Very interesting...13 pumps for a 1000 psi charge? Hardly enough pumps to create much heat I wouldn't think. That's one crafty Cajun there boy! Can't wait to hear what others think about this assist set-up. Let's hear it men...
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dear god i want one not a tank or anything else for that matter i want it...........
btw it looks kinda like a hill pump? interesting
Edited for rule #6 violation
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Looks good in theory...That is the the air inlet he hooked into, but I would be worried about moisture or oil getting in my gun. Basically he turned his Benji Pump into a Shoebox....You guys can try it, I will stick to my pump/scuba tank
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yeah very clever
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Very interesting! A crafty guy. If you had a good moisture/oil filter/trap on the compressor, like if you were spray painting, might be worth trying. To make it more portable, wondering how far one of the 5gal portable tanks would take you?
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In the video you can see a water separator and regulator setup on his shop air. Ol boy has a pretty nice shop too.
I've heard of it being done. First time I've seen a video. It would be interesting to see how long his pump holds up to the typical bengy pump.
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I'd be willing to bet that it'll hold out longer than a stock pump due to less wear on moving parts, maybe about the same or a little less heat generation. I'd also be willing to bet that if a pump manufacturing company saw this they'd be at least interested in developing & marketing it, at an increased cost as a deluxe/improved model of course. I wonder if it might be able to be used to efficiently top off an 88 cu ft SCBA tank.
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Am sure it worked just as shown, have been others who proposed that system, but he's the first vid I've seen of one at work. Pretty neat.
Have some questions about longevity, not so much about the final stage as the initial stages of the pump. Would have to run one that way for a time and see what blew/wore/leaked. Probably does run a little cooler (the shop compressor would take some of the heat when pre-compressing the air).
Basically, its as if the pump was being worked normally in a world where the atmospheric pressure was 50psi (3.4bar) instead of 14.7psi (1 bar), so filling takes about 3.4 times fewer strokes (13 instead of 44 strokes).
Got to be big guy...didn't seem too bothered pumping one-footed.
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I would really like to give that a try, any one have more info on pump life after that mod? Both my guns fill to 2000 psi and all I use to fill them is my hand pump, cutting the pumping time down by that much would be great. Thanks for posting the link to the video pelon87.
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Did you guys check his other videos out? This guy is pretty ingenious...He made a disco double tube out of a paint ball tank!!!!!! I am seriously worried about his safety in this regard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMmE4ePDeW4#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMmE4ePDeW4#ws)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT3yPBZKUqM#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT3yPBZKUqM#ws)
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I noticed two things.... One, he used a FUEL FILTER, I don't know if they are rated for 50 psi.... Secondly, he didn't complete the last pump at (almost) 2000 psi, so I'm guessing that was all his weight could handle....
I too have seen the idea before, and in fact I tried it and found the extra effort considerable, plus it's weird to have the handle driven back up on every stroke.... I don't see a problem with it otherwise....
Bob
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I noticed that too BOB....That fuel filter might be okay for the pressure, most our modern fuel systems are under like 100psi. But that looks like a Carburator fuel filter which is normally under 10psi.
What do you think about the paint ball tanks?
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CO2 tanks are rated for 1800 psi (at least that is what has been on the ones I have seen) and carry a 3K burst disc.... Therefore, they should be safe at up to 1800 psi, providing the connections are properly designed and they are not filled beyond that....
I really didn't like his first version, it would be too easy to break the threaded pipe fittings if you dropped the gun or even bumped the tank on something too hard.... His second version was a bit better, although the front fittings are still vulnerable to damage....
Bob
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Wow....So basically everything this guy has done is correct in theory and practice. And since he is shooting a Disco he does not need to go past 2k psi anyways....
Again I say wow, I still am not gonna try either. He obviously reads the forums if he knows about the Disco Double, and a Tko. This guys should join the GTA!
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Well.... sort of....
Bob
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LOL BOB.....Of course the guy is not on your level of engineer genius status. But for a backyard DIY type guy you gotta give props
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so using a better filter it should work fine in theory my question is does the compressors presure matter can you go higher or thats a no no
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If your asking about higher psi input to the pump, yea I don't see any reaso to say no other than physical ability. Remember higher psi going in drives the handel up. This means you have 3atm instead of 1. 13 strokes vs 44 strokes. The total energy expended to compress air to 2000psi is the same, its a matter of how big a bite of air your taking. Small bites=more strokes and Big bites equall less strokes. Same energy used over different amount of time. Work. Can you perform at the required level is the real question. At 225# feeding the pump 100psi I'd bet I would have a hard time getting 3000psi. Now, if someone were to come up with a closed system that regulated input psi to be high at empty but decrease as the tank psi approached fill, that would be kind of splitting the difference, thus lessening the total number of strokes yet still able to reach higher psi fills. Increase efficiency?
Bill
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You should not post this type of stuff on the weekend, because I have time to do projects and payday was on Friday! I don't have any HPA tanks so I'm left with just my hand pump so the idea of SUPERCHARGING my pump seemed to be to good to be true when I saw the video.
I already have a good shop compressor and a hose with fittings so I set off to harbor freight with my son, I spent about $32 on filters and fittings then I had to make a stop at home depot and spend about $3 on some other small fittings.
I bought 2 types of filters, the one that plugs into the compressor is a oil/water separator then I put a desiccant dryer/filter on my hand pump and a air hose connects the two. I set the reg on the compressor to 50PSI, hooked my gun to the pump and the pump to the compressor and started pumping. It is defiantly harder to pump down BUT you really don't even have to pull the handle up as it raises from the incoming air pressure, I'm 6ft and 170lbs ish and pumping still seems easy to me.
I was filling from 1000psi to 2100psi and normally it would take me about 25 pumps but with the supercharger it took about 13-14, I would rather spend more time shooting then pumping any day! I filled my gun 6-7 times this way and I had no problems.
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb390/the_gamesta/DC000064_zpsccbe11a4.jpg)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb390/the_gamesta/DC000065_zps626c12f2.jpg)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb390/the_gamesta/DC000070_zpsb9d086d6.jpg)
Sorry about the crappy pictures my wife has the good camera.
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Nice Job Qb78guy!!..... I was hoping one of our members would try this for us, Keep us posted on how things work please.
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God bless the American entrepreneurial spirit! This is looking to be a viable alternative to scba tanks for direct fills for the Disco. Compressors are relatively affordable for most and for those without one this gives us a good reason to finally get one for our hobby and shop. QB78Guy, if you can document an easy to follow tutorial, step by step, with all parts and costs to accomplish this apparatus, you would do the membership here proud and many of us would be in your debt. This is another of those innovations to follow in the steps of Stearn, Sykes and Norm, among others and including,the guy in the video, to the sport of Air gunning. Time will tell as to the longevity of o-rings for the manual pump but at the moment this looks to be a promising and inexpensive solution that many of us have been looking for.
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I have no intention of trying this. I have no pump and I get tank fills for free about 2 miles from my house.
If I was going to do it I would think hard about adding some weight to the handle to assist in pushing it back down.
Not so much the compressor could not push the handle up but almost.
Don't know if it would work but I would try it. ;)
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If it isn't too much trouble, how about you try to increase input psi by 10psi and document the change in number of stokes and the difficultly that accompanies such increases. This too could be viable for higher psi fills.
Now see what you guys have done! what if you reg a tank that has only 2500 psi remaining in it for 50-75psi output and connect that to your pump. The air is already dry and your gonna pay the same to fill it from 100psi as you are from 2500psi. This could be a viable fill method for those small tanks. this would be good for a few fills for out in the field. The pump and big tank could be used around the shop/house for the tinkering projects and range work. Dang, like I didn't have enough to do.
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FNG54, good idea. could make it a bit cumbersome and top heavy.
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FNG54, good idea. could make it a bit cumbersome and top heavy.
Clean out pellet trap, add heat, pour into sheets, wrap around lowest possible point. Recycling ;D
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MIght be a "win".
Moves 3X as much air, seems a manageable effort at least to 2000-2100psi. Even if the seals wear out at that same3X rate, you're no worse than "even".
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QB78Guy, if you can document an easy to follow tutorial, step by step, with all parts and costs to accomplish this apparatus, you would do the membership here proud and many of us would be in your debt. Time will tell as to the longevity of o-rings for the manual pump but at the moment this looks to be a promising and inexpensive solution that many of us have been looking for.
I'm interested in the parts and assembly. I'd be lost in Home Labyrinth(Home Depot) looking for these parts. A detailed tutorial would be greatly appreciated by many I'm sure.
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hey guys, since this went as technical as it did. im going to move this up to the support equipment gate
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We need a marauder volunteer to see the effort to pump to 3000psi! ;) Will probably have to turn the compressor regulator down some, but still might be saving a number of pumps.
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Bump for info:
I'm about to spend even more money on a 4500 scba.. unless ??
I'm wonder about the 3000 psi fill as well although i'm that heavy (159)
The method I have always used for pumping is a controlled knee drop squat..vrrrt
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Perhaps having a set volume of air in a small pony tank (eg a 1 gal tank starting at 50 psi) feeding the hand pump would provide more pressure at the beginning and then progressivesly less as you fill the gun, automatically giving a faster fill initially and then a more normal effort towards the end.... Let's explore that....
To fill a Disco from 1000 psi to 2000 is a change of 69 bar times 8.2 CI (gun reservoir volume) which is 566 cu.in., or about 2.45 gallons of air at 1 bar.... A 1 gallon pony tank would hold 4.45 gallons (at 1 bar) when compressed to 50 psi gauge pressure (3.45+1 = 4.45 bar), and obviously 1 gallon remaining at 1 bar, leaving 3.45 gallons available before you are pumping against a partial vacuum.... more than you need for a Disco.... You should be able to vary the pressure in the pony tank to taylor the results to suit your strength and preference.... Gotta love it when a plan works out so easily.... Fill the pony tank to 50 psi, close the valve on the inlet (you wouldn't even need a regulator, just a gauge on the pony tank and close the inlet valve when it hits 50 psi), and start pumping.... By the time the gun has filled, the pressure at the inlet of the pump will have dropped to ~10 psi (gauge pressure) and the last pump would feel more "normal" but still delivering about 65% above the normal volume.... Adjust the pony tank starting pressure to taste.... A bigger pony tank would have a smaller pressure change during filling the gun.... and a smaller one could be filled to a slightly higher pressure and provide a greater rate of change of pressure (and hence effort)....
Who's going to try it?.....
Bob
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Bob, That sounds very plausible to me. It didn't look like the effort to do the disco, was that bad. This approach might be better for higher pressure mrods. Then again, @ 250lbs, I don't find filling my mrod/prod that hard. ;D
For me, I'm looking for a way to detach myself from the compressor and hose. Something easy to take in suv to my field range, cellar, or other location, that might be doing allot of shooting. I already have a 5 gal portable tank, but would need to get a regulator and filter for it. I think I can get most of the stuff at HF. I can fill the tank to 100psi from my garage compressor. Wondering how many fills it can "assist" with?
Just waiting for the mrod fill assist report. :)
PS: This method, would seem to be a great way to recharge the gun from empty.
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Yes, anyone hear of of a 3000 psi fill yet with this method???
Looks like an ice storm or I would be off to the nearest HF (about 45 miles) now.
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Okay.. I'm going to try to not slide around and head out .. should have some info this evening about a 3000 psi fill.
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Made it 10 miles and almost into a ditch.. oh well Guess i'll venture out in a few weeks or a month or so when i have time.
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I went and found my portable tank today. Turns out it is a 9 gal tank with max pressure of 125psi. That should be more than enough for a good number of "assisted" fills. I should be able to make it up to HF during the week. I think I'll add a water/oil/air filter to my compessor output, and an air filter and decicant dryer before the hand pump. The portable tank will need the regulator and hose with a quick disconnect.
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This looks to be a promising endeavor...please, those of you who are able, keep at it. To Bob, thanks for wading in on this; how could you not?! We all look to you for your feedback on these type innovations and the sport is better for it. To those willing to do the grunt work on this, thanks. This forum is great with some great minds...I'm excited to have an alternative method of filling my PCP's and really like Bob's idea of using a pony tank for assist.
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I took a better picture of the pump setup and added some information along with it.
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb390/the_gamesta/Pumpinfo_zpsba84ae5f.jpg)
I can't wait to find out how well this works filling to 3000psi as it could open the door to more guns for me!
I do not have a college degree just the ability to bolt stuff together, I believe that this is safe for ME but as with any experiment time will tell. Be safe!
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Just thinking out loud here. Two heavy duty bungees one attached to left handle one to right handle , both anchored to the pump base. The shop compressor pushes handle up the, the bungees help pull handle down. :D
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The bungees would have the least force at the bottom where the most force is required....
Bob
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Hmm a good excuse to put on a few LBS.
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so the idea of SUPERCHARGING my pump seemed to be to good to be true when I saw the video.
I already have a good shop compressor and a hose with fittings so I set off to harbor freight with my son, I spent about $32 on filters and fittings then I had to make a stop at home depot and spend about $3 on some other small fittings.
I bought 2 types of filters, the one that plugs into the compressor is a oil/water separator then I put a desiccant dryer/filter on my hand pump and a air hose connects the two. I set the reg on the compressor to 50PSI, hooked my gun to the pump and the pump to the compressor and started pumping. It is defiantly harder to pump down BUT you really don't even have to pull the handle up as it raises from the incoming air pressure, I'm 6ft and 170lbs ish and pumping still seems easy to me.
I was filling from 1000psi to 2100psi and normally it would take me about 25 pumps but with the supercharger it took about 13-14, I would rather spend more time shooting then pumping any day! I filled my gun 6-7 times this way and I had no problems.
Ok I tried this also tonight. Went to Harbor Freight and got a regulator for my homemade-portable-12volt-3gal system I made years ago. Had some fittings and a trip to wally world in the middle of the night to get teflon tape... ( i work night shift) So I hook everything up. set the reg to 50 psi. the handle goes up. I push down. The handle comes about half way up, I push down and it some air goes into the tank. The handle does not want to come back up.... feels like a vapor lock situation.... or maybe a vacuum lock.. I think things over. Disconnect the "supercharge system" check if pump still works. it does,but first two stroke felt like an oring dragging. ok... more head scratching. reset reg to zero, hook it all back up.... good thing I installed quick disconnects on it! raise pressure in 5 lbs increments. works fine till 30psi. then locks the pump up. hmmmm..... still not sure why this is. so i pump up my AirForce talon tank at 25psi on the super charger. observation: instead of the stroke becoming hard in the last inch of the stroke it started just above the halfway point and got stronger at the end of the stroke... not any harder than with out the air compressor just a longer "full compression" stroke. vary doable. did not count strokes but noticeably less required to fill tank.
As I don't know what the insides of my airforce pump look like, I can't say what make it seam like it locks up at 50 psi. i used all steel parts to hook up the air. i would really like to do this at 50 psi or higher. Any suggestions guys?
Patrick.
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sounds like your pump is shot
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Ok, how about this ... Screw a paintball tank onto a home brewer regulator set for 50PSI and shoehorn the output of that into the pump. Thinking about field or range use. I know liquid CO2 isn't kind to N-Buna o-rings but will CO2 gas cause the same issues? Have to be sure to keep the tank vertical to avoid any kind of hydro-lock.
This is the reg I was thinking of - http://www.kegoutlet.com/pin-valve-regulator.html (http://www.kegoutlet.com/pin-valve-regulator.html)
Have to find one cheaper to be worth the effort.
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Yall sure are working really hard to find a way to not have to work so hard. ;D End the end the same amount of "work" goes into reaching your chosen pressure.
If you are trying to save time and assuming you are a slow pumper you might be saving a minute? (4 seconds per cycle x 15 cycles saved).
Fun project though. Combine this with the flywheel pully setup in the other thread and let her rip!
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I finally got up to HF and purchased the parts I didn't have. Was planning to add the decicant dryer anyway. Should have it together and run 1st test this weekend. I couldn't find a 45 degree elbow, so going straight like Qb78guy did, for now.
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Good luck Fuzzy. If we get a good report back from you, I'm gonna try this with a Hill MK3. Might be an interesting project.
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Assembled and did initial test. Pumping up the p'rod from 1900 to 3000psi, seemed to take half as many pumps. The benji pump leaks air around the bottom collar nut when air pressure is applied. I have the "improved" o-ring kit and krytox lube. Probably will perform that before any more pressure assist testing.
(http://www.joefishin.com/AirAssist01.jpg)
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this really not worthy....no place on my pump to hook into >:(
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Has any one done more work on this. I have my first PCP on the way and am looking for ways to fill it.
Thanks
Steve
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Has any one done more work on this. I have my first PCP on the way and am looking for ways to fill it.
Thanks
Steve
I haven't. I just rebuilt a spare pump, and put on a desicant dryer and same fitting. If I try it, and still leaks past bottom o-ring, will call it a bust.
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Where did you get the dry pack, is it a diy item ?
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Where did you get the dry pack, is it a diy item ?
Harbor Freight: http://www.harborfreight.com/inline-desiccant-dryerfilter-68215.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/inline-desiccant-dryerfilter-68215.html)
It was $7 at local store.
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I went to Lowes last night and did the same set up. The dry inline filter was $11.xx at Lowes though, with all the fittings comes to like $15, I still gotta get a water collector for the compressor. But I did try it at 60psi last night and it sure was hard to pump but did fill it up in record time.
Maybe around 20-40psi is enough for pumping without breaking all the weight into it.
Great MOD!
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I just did the supercharge thing on my Benjamin pump. I have partially dried air (filtered at 100 psi with my spray gun setup), which I used to fill a tank similar to FuzzGrub two posts up to 2 bar. I just filled my Marauder from 2000 to 3000 psig with 30 strokes. It took all of my weight (170 lbs) to drive the pump down, but there was no leakage anywhere on the pump. I'll fill the portable to 1 bar and give it a go as well. My goal is to take the gun from ~1900 psi to 3000 psi in 40 strokes. I may blow out an o-ring now and then, but they appear easy enough to replace on the Benjamin pump. The question is: when it goes, should I replace the high pressure seal with a urethane or Viton o-ring (both 90A hardness)?
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1.75 to 2 bar seems to be the sweet spot, for me, as far as fill speed vs. force required.
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Let's all cut the BS in this and be real. This CANNOT be good for the hand pump. If it was that easy, the pumps would have some type of instructional video for this.
Hey, I like the idea and it seems cool, but this just cannot be good.
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Like I said, without BS, it'll probably blow the high pressure seal prematurely. I'm not worried about that though. They are only o-rings, which are cheap. It sure won't damage the metal bits unless I stupidly go crazy pumping after a seal blows... I love being able to take the gun to my desired pressure in about half the strokes. I'll update this thread when the seal goes. I'll keep the 2 bar head pressure on the inlet until then. Of course they wouldn't advertise this, because the in-warranty repairs/replacements would probably go through the roof!
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Let me ask how are you getting a good seal at the pump inlet? It's not a tapered thread, I tried this setup and found my pump always had a substantial air leak at the inlet fitting. Thanks
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Let me ask how are you getting a good seal at the pump inlet? It's not a tapered thread, I tried this setup and found my pump always had a substantial air leak at the inlet fitting. Thanks
I snugged a Teflon-taped fitting to the non-tapered threads. Just enough to seal, but not damage. I'm going to buy a bushing to mate the threads. I'll let you know that seals.
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Here's my set up. I used an airbrush regulator to put out just at 20psi into the pump. It works wonderfully, less pumping time by half.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img545/3434/imag0174p.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img404/1828/imag0175mb.jpg)
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So how is this system holding up for those that tried it?
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Still pumping like its the first day I got it :)
Its worth the mod. Go for it...you be glad. Just like the first time you decided a PCP over a pumper ::)
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i will be doing this when i get home. looks like a great setup.
kgb
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It looks like he is using a shop air system. It is hard to tell if it is oil lubed or dry. If it is oil lubed compressor that the yellow hose is connected to he is taking quite a risk with oil in the pump between his legs. That could explode.
As with the shoebox, only oil-less compressor should be used.
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It looks like he is using a shop air system. It is hard to tell if it is oil lubed or dry. If it is oil lubed compressor that the yellow hose is connected to he is taking quite a risk with oil in the pump between his legs. That could explode.
As with the shoebox, only oil-less compressor should be used.
FIY its oiless, and if you shoot constantly and can afford shoebox.. go ahead, buy one or two. But for someone who shoots occasionally on the weekends or plinkering around this is a great way to mod your pump.
The little filter came with the pump is a joke compared to the aftermarket decadent absorber. Its a win win situation.
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Follow up on this modified pump set up:
It's still pumping great. Can't get rid of leaking air issue but its not a big deal. Pump the marauder to 3000 psi numerous of times. No wear on orings nor overheat. None moisture in tube since I have opened both guns (disco and marauder) while working on a depinger mod.
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It's been a few years now... how is this setup holding up these days??