GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: makenzie71 on January 17, 2013, 07:30:35 PM
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10 clicking sounds as it's cocked back. Linear. The gun shoots neatly otherwise. Any ideas?
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The ruger air hawk has a 2 part linkage cocking arm, the sound could be the cocking arm rubbing along the spring.
also could be the piston sleeve, hitting the spring, as it is being cocked.
The last time, I was in a ruger airhawk, this is how it was designed.
No noticeable decrease in power, as this would indicate a broken spring too.
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Wow. So much for being quiet while sneaking around varmints.
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The ruger air hawk has a 2 part linkage cocking arm, the sound could be the cocking arm rubbing along the spring.
also could be the piston sleeve, hitting the spring, as it is being cocked.
The last time, I was in a ruger airhawk, this is how it was designed.
No noticeable decrease in power, as this would indicate a broken spring too.
The two part link...is it suppose to be rubbing along the wood of the stock? There's no slider or anything for the link to run along. Seems like that couldn't possibly help...the noise does seem to be internal, though. I might just have to break it apart and have a looky look inside.
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Last time I looked, the articulating linkage (2 part linkage) had a wheel at the connection.
When you cock the gun it forces the wheel against the receiver and should not be touching the wood.
If the spring is warped, it will catch the piston sleeve.
Without the piston sleeve the linkage will grab the spring.
This is the same setup almost as my 350 magnum.
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hmmmm...no wheel. I may have to go to walmart and "rent" a new one so I can get a good look at what they're SUPPOSE to look like.
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hmmmm...no wheel. I may have to go to walmart and "rent" a new one so I can get a good look at what they're SUPPOSE to look like.
The one I was in, was about 2 years ago, designs may have changed since then.
It was a ruger airhawk though
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This one is fairly aged. Been around the block a few times.
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My Blackhawks are built and operate the same as an Air Hawk. In the center of the cocking linkage, there is a hardened steel shaft that sticks out of the sides of the linkage and rides in a lubricated sleeve. In the center of this is a fairly narrow wheel. Upon cocking, the shaft rolls along two glide ways in the bottom part of the forearm and the wheel is pushed upwards against the bottom of the compression chamber as the cocking bar pushes back on the piston. I don't believe that the sound that is being described can come from this linkage. The fact that there is always 10 clicking sounds leads me to believe that the spring is involved. That is about how many coil winds that would be encountered in the cocking stroke for the end of the linkage. It is possible that the spring may be warped or bent in such a way that something in the end of the linkage or inside back of the piston area is snapping against spring coils during the cocking process. I can't speculate further because I have never encountered any kind of cocking sound problem with any Blackhawk, and beside my own, I have tuned about 5 of these for others.
The only way that I could determine if the spring is the actual culprit would be to take the spring out and check it for warp/bend or possibly something in the spring guide system that is interfering.
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See I got no guides on the side so I think that's part of the problem. The pin's just riding on the wooden stock. It might be causing the links to not be pushing the spring back properly.
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I have exactly the same problem in my BlackHawk, but I believe that it's my own fault - I tried cocking it A BIT (!!) without the stock when I was loctiting the screws. The cocking arm has a link, and that causes the shoe of the cocking arm to slightly bend the thin sleeve inside the chamber. The spring catches on it and makes the noise. Otherwise - the shooting cycle is smooth. I'm building a compressor to take it apart.
Take home message: NEVER cock (even slightly) the Black or AirHawk without the stock, or if needed - remove the cocking arm!
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I have exactly the same problem in my BlackHawk, but I believe that it's my own fault - I tried cocking it A BIT (!!) without the stock when I was loctiting the screws. The cocking arm has a link, and that causes the shoe of the cocking arm to slightly bend the thin sleeve inside the chamber. The spring catches on it and makes the noise. Otherwise - the shooting cycle is smooth. I'm building a compressor to take it apart.
Take home message: NEVER cock (even slightly) the Black or AirHawk without the stock, or if needed - remove the cocking arm!
VERY common issue with the Rugers. Almost forgot about it. The sleeve inside the piston gets dented where the linkage tab engages the piston and rubs over each coil. You either have to remove the piston and carefully smooth it out, or just remove the sleeve altogether and polish up the tab that engages the piston. I removed mine.
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I have exactly the same problem in my BlackHawk, but I believe that it's my own fault - I tried cocking it A BIT (!!) without the stock when I was loctiting the screws. The cocking arm has a link, and that causes the shoe of the cocking arm to slightly bend the thin sleeve inside the chamber. The spring catches on it and makes the noise. Otherwise - the shooting cycle is smooth. I'm building a compressor to take it apart.
Take home message: NEVER cock (even slightly) the Black or AirHawk without the stock, or if needed - remove the cocking arm!
VERY common issue with the Rugers. Almost forgot about it. The sleeve inside the piston gets dented where the linkage tab engages the piston and rubs over each coil. You either have to remove the piston and carefully smooth it out, or just remove the sleeve altogether and polish up the tab that engages the piston. I removed mine.
Did you install a top hat after removing the sleeve or just discarded the sleeve w/o any further mods? I've heard two opposite opinions:
1) removing the sleeve doesn't hurt, a top hat is NOT necessary
2) removing the sleeve doesn't hurt, a top hat is AN ABSOLUTE MUST otherwise the spring will be touching the chamber walls
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I ALWAYS remove the sleeve and ALWAYS install a tophat. Without a sleeve or tophat, the forward end of the spring has nothing to determine where it should be either during the cocking cycle or the firing cycle. Most likely would lead to early spring failure one way or another.
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I ALWAYS remove the sleeve and ALWAYS install a tophat. Without a sleeve or tophat, the forward end of the spring has nothing to determine where it should be either during the cocking cycle or the firing cycle. Most likely would lead to early spring failure one way or another.
Yup. I installed a delrin tophat. Removing the sleeve increases the inner diam of the piston, giving the spring more room to wiggle around and buzz.
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Thanks! That's what I thought too. Do you have a link to delrin tophat? I also know MM makes them (anyone knows the price with shipping?)
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Thanks! That's what I thought too. Do you have a link to delrin tophat? I also know MM makes them (anyone knows the price with shipping?)
I usually make my own, but Mike sent me one for $15.00
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What is the material that you make them of? Do you have dimensions?
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Don't have any dimensions. I prefer to use steel to add a little weight which seems to give me a little more power. On the Rugers, the tophat does'nt need a very long shaft, maybe an inch at the most. I'd say the seat will be about 1/4 inch. On the delrin version from Mike I added a polished steel washer for the spring to ride on. If you make one, just try to get it to where it will slide into the piston freely, but not rattle around. The spring should fit with a slight interference fit on the shaft.
EDIT. If you get one from Mike, note that I ground the conical seat flat in order to allow the added thickness of the washer in the pic.
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So, basically - the heavier - the better? How will that affect the velocities? Will "hard" rubber work?
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How heavy depends on the gun. Most of my rifles are magnums and with a tune could stand a little heavier piston assembly after tuning to help move heavier pellets. Just adding wieght with a heavier tophat, washers or slugs, isnt an instant recipe for more power. Oftentimes, a LITTLE more weight is ok and will let your gun handle heavier pellets more effectively.
The problem is the need to balance everything correctly. Too heavy a piston assembly and you can lose power and possibly damage a spring or seal, at the very least you'll increase recoil and produce a harsher shot cycle. Heavier pellets help to compensate for the increased momentum of the heavier piston and make better use of the higher pressures created by the heavier piston/pellet combination.
If I go to a stronger spring, I almost always add a little weight to the piston, but I also move up to heavier pellets as well. If things get too harsh or violent, I reduce weight till it smooths out to an acceptable level.
For a stock Ruger with stock spring, I'd go with a lighter tophat, which is why I used one made from Delrin from Mike Melick. When I upgrade it to a stronger spring, I'll probably make one out of steel and then stick with 10 grain pellets.
Oh, and do not try making anything you'll add to your powerplant out of "hard rubber". It will not have the durability to withstand the abuse, might increase friction in a bad way, and can often be broken down over time when in contact with lubricants.
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Thanks, Paul! A very clear answer.
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Just a reminder for those who are installing their first tophat; Because you are adding the full length of the tophat to the spring chamber, you need to cut the end off of the long rear spring guide by the full length of the tophat. If this is not done, the rear guide will collide with the tophat and the rifle will NOT cock. It also helps greatly to the smoothness of the cocking cycle to re-taper the cut off end of the spring guide.
Also, don't forget to put a well fitted steel washer between the tophat and spring. Without the washer, the spring will chew through the base of the tophat in a big hurry.
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Just a reminder for those who are installing their first tophat; Because you are adding the full length of the tophat to the spring chamber, you need to cut the end off of the long rear spring guide by the full length of the tophat. If this is not done, the rear guide will collide with the tophat and the rifle will NOT cock. It also helps greatly to the smoothness of the cocking cycle to re-taper the cut off end of the spring guide.
Also, don't forget to put a well fitted steel washer between the tophat and spring. Without the washer, the spring will chew through the base of the tophat in a big hurry.
I haven't had to shorten any rear spring guides on the guns I've added tophats to Pappa. If you calcuate compressed spring length then compare the total length of the rear guide and tophat, its easy to see how much you can get away with.
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Just a reminder for those who are installing their first tophat; Because you are adding the full length of the tophat to the spring chamber, you need to cut the end off of the long rear spring guide by the full length of the tophat. If this is not done, the rear guide will collide with the tophat and the rifle will NOT cock. It also helps greatly to the smoothness of the cocking cycle to re-taper the cut off end of the spring guide.
Also, don't forget to put a well fitted steel washer between the tophat and spring. Without the washer, the spring will chew through the base of the tophat in a big hurry.
I haven't had to shorten any rear spring guides on the guns I've added tophats to Pappa. If you calcuate compressed spring length then compare the total length of the rear guide and tophat, its easy to see how much you can get away with.
You have been darn lucky, my friend. The very first tophat I installed in a Blackhawk, it would NOT cock after I buttoned it up. Mike Melick told me about shortening the rear guide and I have never had another problem since. In any case, I think that it is good insurance to shorten it and it really can't hurt. What it amounts to in adding a tophat is that you are adding the length of the tophat which was not there before to the internal spring compression length which is alien to the design of that area.
I have done 6 tophat additions to Blackhawks now and they have all performed extremely well.
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Just a reminder for those who are installing their first tophat; Because you are adding the full length of the tophat to the spring chamber, you need to cut the end off of the long rear spring guide by the full length of the tophat. If this is not done, the rear guide will collide with the tophat and the rifle will NOT cock. It also helps greatly to the smoothness of the cocking cycle to re-taper the cut off end of the spring guide.
Also, don't forget to put a well fitted steel washer between the tophat and spring. Without the washer, the spring will chew through the base of the tophat in a big hurry.
I haven't had to shorten any rear spring guides on the guns I've added tophats to Pappa. If you calcuate compressed spring length then compare the total length of the rear guide and tophat, its easy to see how much you can get away with.
You have been darn lucky, my friend. The very first tophat I installed in a Blackhawk, it would NOT cock after I buttoned it up. Mike Melick told me about shortening the rear guide and I have never had another problem since. In any case, I think that it is good insurance to shorten it and it really can't hurt. What it amounts to in adding a tophat is that you are adding the length of the tophat which was not there before to the internal spring compression length which is alien to the design of that area.
I have done 6 tophat additions to Blackhawks now and they have all performed extremely well.
I agree, the tophat is a great addition to these guns. Really help wake em up and quiet em down. Mine may be an abberation, and my other guns I check compressed height before making the tophats. Thanks.
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I took mine apart today - was impressed how easily this can be done with a compressor (will post step-by-step instructions on building one tomorrow or Monday). I didn't install the tophat - just fixed the dented sleeve for now.
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Sorted out my noise. Compression tube...I'll call it that for a lack of a proper name at this time...had a dent in it. Not sure how it got there but the coils were "jumping" over it. Straightened it out by hammering a socket into the sleeve and dolly'ing it smooth again. did a light polish on the guns and trigger while it was all apart, reassembled, and bang bang bang. 1/4" pattern at 30 yards.
(http://i.imgur.com/XmYHfnO.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/eJo1zWs.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/FCfi7O6.jpg)
Final product (being inspected by little miss Makenzie71 Jr.):
(http://i.imgur.com/bqO35h5.jpg)
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That would be the piston sleeve, looks as if the cocking arm has been digging into it.
Somehow, the cocking arm is not staying straight and forcing the piston back.
Something is wrong there, might happen again, but now you know how to fix it.
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It was right under where the arm goes in...so, I'm thinking that it was dinged during assembly or disassembly. The guy mailed it to me apart to save dimensions, and I put it together. The sleeve is pretty soft so it wouldn't take much effort to dent it without knowing. I'm sure that's what happened.
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...though, I will be watching it (or, more so, I'll have the new owner watch it...it's going to my brother).