GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: nervoustrigger on January 15, 2013, 03:22:44 AM
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Today two packages were delivered from Mike Melick (thanks, Mike!) containing a shiny B51 and pump. This rifle is my first PCP and let me tell you, I'm as excited as a kid on Christmas morning.
Naturally I spent the evening mounting a scope, cleaning the barrel, pumping it up, and mounting a light and pressure pad. It's nasty outside, raining for what seems like the last 3 weeks, so I've only fired four shots so far from my carport out to the woodline. Can't wait to get some bench time sighting it in.
Based on some things I read, I expected it to be heavy and loud. But in my opinion, it is neither. With the reservoir charged fully to 3000psi, it's only slightly louder than my son's little Daisy 880 multi-pump pneumatic. And it seems relatively lightweight for my buck fifty frame. I'm also really liking the lack of recoil.
This is to be my new hunting rig so I'll eventually be tuning it to shoot heavy-ish pellets for higher FPE. Though it will be tempting to jump right in, I want to take my time and learn the rifle before I go tinkering with it so I can be sure it's working well.
I'm proud to be coming over to the dark side. Here are a couple of pictures:
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Looks very nice. Keep us posted.
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congrats!
very nice shooter!
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Nice gun, you will enjoy it.
Keep shooting it from your 3K fill and you will notice it getting louder and louder. With top pressure holding the valve closed, the valve only opens a tiny bit when fired. As air presure drops, the vlve opens longer and longer, using more air and getting noticably louder.
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congrats. looks nice, bet it's a shooter too ;D ;D
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Nice. I've been pretty curious about the B50/51. Let us know how it performs.
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Ribbonstone, okay I see what you are saying. Yes, the 5th and 6th shots were already getting louder.
I have a good assortment of pellets so I will see what works well. And I recently got a chronograph so I will be able to make some meaningful conclusions when I begin tuning. I will keep you guys updated.
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NT,
Congrats! I also turned to the dark side. I got a disco .22. Added a tko, brass trigger and power adjuster. I'm loving it. Got tired of pumping real fast. So went out and bought a scuba tank.
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I got my B50 about a month ago and it's great, I have detuned to 12 ftlbs right now for indoor shooting, I only fill to about 1450psi shoot to about 900 psi. Its important to use good posture when pumping or else, keep your head up & look straight ahead, stop to look at the gauge.
I was in a bit of pain till I read a post pointing out the cause. Enjoy!
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There is a whole “book” on the BAM 50/51, and almost all of what you ever need to know is in it. Do a search of the forum, where (and are) a whole lot of people who like the BAM 50/51.
PLUS SIDE:
1.Except for the seals, all wood and metal.
2.Easy to service.
3.Accurate (at least in my eample).
4.Adjustable trigger.
5.Non-automatic safety.
MINUS SIDE:
1.Heavy (this kind of goes with #1 above. An excectionally thick air tube adds to weight)
2. Trigger is often a ping-pong match. Changing one thing should not change another, but that’s how it seems. Stay safe enough for rough treatment.
3. Loud. Whatever that attachment to the barrel is, it’s not a real good LDC.
4. Have the reputation for occasionally eating valve stems. Have my reasons for the following do not shoot your gun empty. Bad things seem to happen when you dry fire an empty gun or shoot one to empty (which requires near dry fire).
Bought mine used, and the previous owner did the stock work (and did a very nice job). Is a reqorked BAM 51 stock, with some additions, reshaping, refinishing. Doesn’t make one bit of difference to how well it shoots.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/BAM51/IMG_0072-1.jpg)
LDC is a “booster stage” added to the factory muzzle device. Just found that easier to do and just as effective as a whole new LDC.
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Thanks, RD. I looked pretty seriously at a Disco for myself. It has a lot of good things going for it...Benjamin reliability, accuracy, lots of accessories, strong support community, etc. I think I'm going to miss having a built-in pressure gauge but it was really my plans for a hunting rifle that swung me over to the B50 / B51.
Ribbonstone, thanks for the pointer to ChrisK's book. Actually I was reading it starting weeks ago, though I can't really digest it yet given my unfamiliarity with parts of the gun. I'm fairly mechanically inclined so I'll get the hang of it in due time.
About dry firing, Mike wrote on the box to not fire unless charged to at least 1000 psi. Do you think that's related to the valve stem issue you described? I don't remember seeing that in my reading, and in fact on a few occasions read that dry firing a PCP is okay, at least generally speaking. I understand the reasons it's bad for spring and gas piston guns. And not that I plan to do that, but shortly after pulling the rifle from the box I pulled back the bolt, closed it and set the safety while I mounted the scope. Then somewhere along the way of mounting the scope I disengaged the safety and bumped the trigger. Ugh, stupid, stupid. There was no pressure in the reservoir. Hopefully I didn't hurt it.
Your rifle looks really nice, by the way. Also, I never thought about putting a one-piece mount behind the loading port.
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Very cool gun. And I agree about the unrelenting rain. I've had more than enough.
Richard
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Nice!!!
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Did the one piece mount simply becasue it was the only 30mm mount I had that would raise the scope to meet my eye when shouldering the gun (high cheek piece). Certainly don't think a "recoiless"gun needs that kind of mount clamping.
Have no solid proof of dry fire/low pressure dry fire being the main cause of valve seal damage (nor do i have a bunch of issue valve stems to experiment with), but suspect it to be one way. Without the closing pressure or air pressure, the valve stem tends to be driven in much father and harder and they tend to break at the back end (where it is reduced in size for the return spring).
Are going to accidently dry fire them every so often...but banging away all the times it takes to get them completely empty is probably abusive.
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For the first time this week it wasn't raining when I got home from work so I excitedly took the B51 out to see how it shoots.
Aack73, you called it:
congrats. looks nice, bet it's a shooter too ;D ;D
Yes sir, it is.
With only 20 pellets down the barrel, I'm not sure it's even seasoned yet but I just squeezed off this 5-shot group at 25 yards with H&N FTT 5.53mm pellets. I'm speechless. The ridiculous thing is, I think I pulled the last shot low.
I think I'm going like this whole darkside thing.
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Might be a help.
I don't buy a lot of brand new airguns, but recently did buy one.
For about 400-500 rounds (one tin of 500 pellets), I didn't do JACK but shoot it and clean the barrel every 50-75 rounds. Was mostly working on setting the gun, getting shot counts and power levels.
Gun averaged about 20-25% better at the end of that, without doing a thing but shooting it. Can think of it as break-in, shooting in, or just lapping by use. Whatever...shooting it wore off the rough spots and cleaning it removed the gunk.
So shoot it...clean the barrel..and shoot it some more.
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congrats. the darkside is powerful. it will consume you lol :D ;D ;D
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Great group even with the pull Jason. Congrats.
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Fantastic! It's Saturday and I couldn't wait to get outside to punch paper and try a few different pellets. I start out with the H&N FTT 5.53's that shoot so well in the XS46U gas ram, and am promptly rewarded with the satisfaction of punching ragged holes at 25 yards with relative ease.
I have two mostly full 500-count tins of JSB Exacts in 13.4gr and 15.9gr on the shelf that shoot like absolute poo in my other two rifles. I figure what the heck, I'll pull them out and confirm what others have been saying about JSB quality control and the undersized heads lately. The 13.4gr pellets shoot about a 1" group, which is about 3" better than with the other two rifles. So I move on the 15.9gr and proceed to make about a 1/2" group. Now at this point I'm just rolling off a few quick groups to get a sense of whether it's worth taking my time. Well, it is.
They're hitting just a smidge to the left of where I'd set the scope for the H&N's. So three clicks to the right and I take a few careful shots on the 3/4" bullseye and soon find there's not much sport in that. So I proceed to target random letters scattered around the paper...the "R" in RIFLE, the "G" in TARGET. The first 3 are hits. Then I put my eye on the brightly-colored thumbtack in the upper right corner that's holding the paper to the backer board. Bam! Where'd that tack go?
I'm in disbelief. I peer back through the scope to confirm what I think I saw. Yep, no tack. Out comes an evil villan laugh...I can't help myself. ;D
So here are the two lessons I learned today:
1. Don't throw out that crummy tin of pellets that sprays all over the place. The next rifle might love them. And you know deep down there is always a "next rifle".
2. Mike is some sort of airgun sorcerer.
By the way, I haven't touched the trigger adjustments. It's light and smooth as butter.
Lastly, I want to put in a plug for ten.ring's novel moisture filter described here:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=39174.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=39174.0)
Put one together last night and I'm as pleased as punch with it. If anyone is interested, I'll share a few pointers about how I made it work with the Xisico pump.
Thanks for reading. Sorry it was so long but it's as long as I am happy.
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i always see these b50/51's used at a local store
never gave them much thought until now
might add one to the stable one day
nice shooting!
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Okay, I ran my mouth off a few minutes ago about how accurate this rifle is. But as they say, no pic, didn't happen. I pumped it back up to 200 bar and pinned up a new target. Took me a few shots to get back in my groove but here's what it's capable of when I do my part:
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Now you know why it is the "dark side". Hitting what you aim at is so addicitive.
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Here's a sampling of 4 different pellets. I was really surprised at how it sprays the RWS Superdomes because they shoot well in my other two rifles. The RWS Super H-points and H&N FTT 5.53 both grouped fairly well but not like the Predator Polymags. It apparently likes those. Good for me. Bad for the nutters.
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Good group with the PP's. Looks like it would group well with jsb too.
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very nice when the polymags group well. ;D ;D
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Jason,
Well I jumped the shark and heading for the DARKSIDE! My B-50 is on the way from MM. Been on the phone with Mike a couple of times asking questions. He sent me The Book on B-50 and frankly I'm a little worried. All the tweets and mods you can do to this gun makes me feel like I bought a Kit gun. I hope I can pull this thing out of the box, clean it, and the start pumping. You posts have given me a little insight on the B-50 and what to expect.
Keep posting about what your doing with the B-50. Maybe I can learn by your doing.
Great looking gun too. I'll post some pic's too.
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Tobar,
Congratulations! Based on what I've seen from mine so far, I think you'll be very happy with it. Don't be worried about the book. If you're a tinkerer, then it's a fantastic platform but it shoots very accurately out of the box with respectable power so there's no need to go fiddling with it if that's not your style.
The only thing I've noticed about mine that I consider essential is rounding the edges of the loading port where the bolt passes through. Mine was eating up the little O-ring near the tip of the bolt. I don't know if they're all like that but ChrisK has a section about it in his book so I assume so.
I did clean the barrel on mine before shooting it but it wasn't anywhere near as dirty as the pile of filthy patches shown in the book.
I'm absolutely tickled with the accuracy from the JSB 15.9's. You didn't mention if you are getting a .177 or .22, but if it's the .22 then I highly recommend you pick some up.
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Seeing as how this rifle is capable of stacking pellets at 25 yards, I stretched out to 50 yards to see what it can do. Besides a bit of trajectory drop, I was seeing about a 1" kick to the right on average. There was absolutely no wind though.
Back up a few days. I had to dial in a pretty good bit of windage adjustment on the scope to get it on target at 25 yards, and I had read that not having the scope optically centered can cause that sort of lateral shift at different ranges. They make adjustable scope mounts to deal with this sort of thing but they're fairly expensive, and with this rifle you can do it for free.
So using a mirror and flashlight, I recentered the windage (vertical crosshair). I then loosened the 3 set screws on the barrel band and gave it a slight twist and tightened them...just snug for now so as not to dig them in and scar up the tube.. This pulls the barrel slightly left or right. A small adjustment here makes a big change in the point of impact out at 25 yards. After a handful of trial-and-error attempts, I got within 1/4" of hitting my lateral mark. I snugged them up tight and dialed in just a few clicks to get it dead on.
Back to the 50 yard target. On the first try, a bit of holdover and POW, right in the bullseye. Okay, I'm a believer.
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the reason for the don't fire unless under pressure is the small brass fitting on the back of the valve, it holds the o-ring to seal the stem. As we know brass is soft and the steel striker hitting it with no pressure will deform it to the point where it will not allow the valve stem to move, rifle will fire then the stem sticks and it dumps the whole load...complete tear down is needed to get to it and then it needs to be drilled out so the stem doesn't bind...had to fix more than one...not a big problem but a real pain in the butt to do, you will only do it once...
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Spent some time with the chronograph today getting a shot string. The rifle has no modifications. Shot Crosman Premier Hollow Points starting at 3000psi and got 88 shots before the velocity dropped off below that of the first shot. Peak velocity was 910fps yielding 26fpe.
After the last recorded shot, I sat down at the bench and fired a test shot at a 1/4" diameter bullseye at 25 yards, though with a JSB Exact 15.9gr because of their accuracy. It pinned the bullseye with perfect vertical trajectory and off by 1/8" on the windage. When I put the pump back on it, the check valve tripped at about 1200psi which kinda surprised me how low it was. Until now I've been refilling from about 1.8k - 2.0k, just kinda guessing at when it needs it.
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That's where it would be nice to have a pressure gauge on the rifle, so you can pin point the beginning and end of the sweet spot. Otherwise all you can do is fill abit less and try again, repeat as many times as necessary until your sure. It looks like you will get a a nice shot string for about 30 shots. JMO
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Jason,
That shot string that you posted looks OK to me. It's got that bathtub shape, plus a great shot count. I think mine AG is in the same ballpark. Hard to tell without a Chrony, but I bought one today. It should be easy to pick you sweat spot out of that string.
I tried starting strings at 2900psi, 2500psi, and 2000psi. and what I can't get is the starting out seems quiet then gets louder and louder. It's using more air I know but does it always have to build up to a faster FPS? It takes about 8-10 shots before it starts getting louder. I would figure that if you start at the lower fills say 2000psi it should jump right into faster FPS and have the louder sound. When you pick your sweet spot to start your strings are you always going to have to build up to your max FPS?
The smacking of these targets is the great part. I can't believe the groups I getting. Last night I picked up my B-26 and shot it. Springers are going to be hard to pick-up and enjoy till I wear myself out on these PCP's...lol. Been shooting .177 Crosman Premier 10.5 and been really happy with them.
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That's where it would be nice to have a pressure gauge on the rifle, so you can pin point the beginning and end of the sweet spot.
Agreed, I'm very interested in installing a gauge but I'm assuming it must be major surgery because I couldn't dig up anything about it other than where someone asked the question. If you find out how, please share!
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I tried starting strings at 2900psi, 2500psi, and 2000psi. and what I can't get is the starting out seems quiet then gets louder and louder. It's using more air I know but does it always have to build up to a faster FPS? It takes about 8-10 shots before it starts getting louder.
Hmm, I'm surprised you were detecting a growing loudness down at 2000psi. There's a pressure at which it shoots at max velocity and if you know about what that is, you can pump to it and go from there. Problem is knowing where that is without a gauge on the rifle. What I intend to do is, the next time I'm out plinking, occasionally fire one off through the chrono. When it's in the vicinity of the max velocity of 900fps, I'll attach the pump and see at what pressure the check valve opens and then I'll know about where it needs to be.
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After reading this post I decided to see what my B50 would be like with original spring and transfer port. I decided to fill to 2600 hoping to nail the sweet spot on your graph. My hammer has been polished and lightly lubed as well as a bit of deburring and polishing in the tube.
So here goes, when it was done I was at 1800psi. Using CPHPs 14.3.
880 914 901 879
886 921 905
896 919 896
896 917 897
893 917 888
907 919 889
904 911 887
914 914 882
913 916 884
917 901 887
It's definitely louder and I don't like pumping to 2600 but it was fun.
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Tobar, looks like you may be right about the peak power coming at around 2000psi. Last night, I hit what I consider the power band (>870fps) when the pressure had fallen to about 2200psi.
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nervoustrigger, Your profile pic is perfect! :)
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Ah, thank you. Preparedness is key!
Been following your yote escapades. Really I'm jealous I don't have any around here. Good luck!
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I'll share plenty of pics, video and play by play.
I ordered a scope cam mount this morning so I can video the kill shot.
YM
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Just for reference, this is the PCP pressure gear I purchased...
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=41625.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=41625.0)
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Jason,
Your right about the 2000psi being the peak. Today I started at 2200psi and 6 shots in it was louder, louder, loudest. Checked the pressure after 15 shots and it stood right on 1900psi. When the Chrony comes I'll double check, but I pretty sure that my sweat spot. Took another 20 shots and ended at 1400psi. Thats great! Bringing the AG up to 2200psi with the pump is easy. Might consider staying with the pump instead of a Tank for now. More money for that Mrod I know that is calling my name.
Bill
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Okay, I wanted to stretch out a little today and see what it can do. The far corner of my yard is 45 yards so that's my limit. I'm really pleased with this result, especially since I've been doing yard work all day and my muscles are a little twitchy.
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NervousT, nice.
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Not sure why I didn't think to try it until now but I ran a few JSB Monster 25.4gr pellets down the barrel this evening and they're pushing 30fpe!
Of course I need to see if they will group but I didn't expect that much energy in stock form.
Yotemaster, where's that video? I need to see a yote go down! I keep checking the hunting gate but it's not showing up! ;)
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Well, uh, we are working out some production details with the studio. (Lawyer stuff, you know.) As soon as that is worked out, I can get that yote kill out on the Internet. Yeah, yeah, that's it. Lawyer stuff. Dang lawyers. ;)
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Lawyers/////yotes... What is the differance?
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lol :D ;D that was funny. ;D
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The B51 continues to amaze me. Just shot this group when I got home from work this evening, this time with the lighter weight JSB 13.4gr. I don't remember them grouping well when the rifle was new but they sure seem to now. 5-shot group at 25 yards resulting in a 0.20" CTC group, my best yet.
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very nice shooting ;D
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Superb shooting!
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I'm guessing two things are happening, one is, you're just breaking the gun in and it's shooting just a bit smoother. I'm also suspecting that it's possible that you've got muscle memory built in now and you're now getting a slightly more consistent cheek weld.
No matter what, though, that's a good group!
M
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Yesterday evening after pumping the rifle, I could hear a slow leak from the fill nipple after disconnecting the hose. I tried 4 times to repressurize the hose and hopefully reseat the check valve but each time it continued to leak, until the last time it reaaaaaly leaked and just drained all the way down.
Well, okay, time to open up the air tube and deal with the problem. See the picture below. Hmm, something tells me the O-ring is not supposed to look like that! It reminds me of the scene from the original Robocop where the bad guy gets doused with radioactive waste and his skin and face mutates into loose lobes of hanging flesh. I mean, what makes an O-ring do that?
Anyway, it's the same size O-ring as the one on the bolt probe so I went ahead and installed one of the Viton double-seal types I had in the parts box. While I was in there, I noticed a little condensation in the tube despite using a dessicant drier on the inlet to the pump. So I dried it up with a paper towel taped to a dowel, and was pleased to see there was no rust in the tube. To give it some protection, I applied a thin coat of silicone oil to the inside walls. To do this, I stapled a piece of open-cell foam (liner pad from a tin of JSB pellets) to a 3/4" dowel, squeezed some silicone oil onto it, and swept it through the tube a couple of times to distribute it.
After putting it back together, I pumped it up and was relieved to find that it sealed nicely. Turns out I spent as much time fiddling with the barrel band (to keep my scope's windage turret in its optical center) as I did fixing the leak. The subsequent sighting-in session today went well. After getting it dialed in at 25 yards, I taped up a target at the far end of the yard next to the woodline which is 42 yards away and put up this 0.35" CTC group.
Did I mention that I like this gun?