GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: sghunter on December 23, 2012, 01:21:01 AM
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Several weeks ago, when I decided I wanted to hunt with an air rifle and decided it would be a break barrel, spring or gas piston, I started doing the usual research . . . forums, vendor sites, Amazon product reviews, etc. I thought I had pretty much settled on several under $200 dollar rifles, such as the Ruger, Crosman or Beeman's in that price range. Then I found this forum and read about tune up kits, honing, deburring, and so on, stuff that is way over my head.
I hate the idea of throwing my money away on a piece of junk, but I would like to find a decent quality .22 rifle for around $200 that will shoot good and be reliable right out of the box.
Is that unrealistic?
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Welcome to the GTA!
Save your money buy something better . IMHO Something German.. If $200.00 Is you limit ,Check the GTA classifieds for a Nice previously owned one.
But it would help us to advise you if we knew a bit more about your intended use...Hunt what?
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Diana D34....
Bob
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Diana D34....
Bob
X2
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Welcome to the GTA!
Save your money buy something better . IMHO Something German.. If $200.00 Is you limit ,Check the GTA classifieds for a Nice previously owned one.
But it would help us to advise you if we knew a bit more about your intended use...Hunt what?
Here in Colorado my hunting will be rabbits, squirrels, collared doves, prairie dogs, possibly raccoons. I would pay a little more than $200 if I was confident that I had a good gun right from the start.
What I really want to avoid is buying a gun that turns into a project. I looked at the RWS34 and the RWS magnum rifles, and I did see some refurbished in my price range, but after reading some of the posts here, I wonder if even those would need a "tune up" before being really useful for hunting.
I should mention that I prefer open sights, and my intention is to avoid long range shooting.
Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it.
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Sghunter welcome to GTA. I am a person in a similar situation to yours as far as not wanting to go nuts on investing in an AG. What I have found through my research is that there is a wide selection of guns that are "out of the box ready"(after initial cleaning/breaking in of gun) that are going to suit your desires. What I found out is that the GTA is about making good things better whether its a gun or the shooter themselves.
I'm sure more experienced members will chime in as to the many options of guns that would be a good start but it will help to know more what your actual desires are. I know one of the many questions that will be asked is what you're looking to hunt. I'm sure there's others but being new to this myself I'm still learning as well.
Good luck in your quest.
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yeah for a 200 dollar spending limit i think youd be happy you spent a few extra bucks for the rws34. i dont own one but thats what i can tell by reading all the reviews. like you, im doing some shopping and research too. I may just save up for the rws48 instead.. (sidelever=awesome)
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What about a mike tuned flying dragon rifle?
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Yeah. You just buy from the right guy and those problems are taken care of.
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The RWS 34 can be had new for under $220 without a scope. That would be my number one. I have found that the Hatsan 95 is a solid shooter as well. The trigger is far better than any Gamo or Crosman out of the box. Then again a good shooting Crosman or stoeger with a grt3 trigger would make a great rifle as well
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RWS 34 right now or.. Save up a little longer and get a Benji discovery and pump combo. The latter would be my recommendation for hunting. They are easy to shoot accurately, powerful, and leave plenty of room to expand if you want more gun.
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Answer. No. Not really. IMHO most folks start on the wrong end of the AG scale. Until i found gta and yellow i had few firends that even owned an AG since childhood. Your on the right track. To hunt most of what you listed a 15-18fpe gun will service you well. Coons will need a very well placed shot. Im sure we could all use a lesson from Shadow be for our first coon hunt.
As far a list of AG in your price range...Airgunweb has a series that is tasked with just that request. Rick is a very straight up guy about his reviews. I personally think without the funds to do it myself, watching his reviews is the next best thing. Good luck and welcome.
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Thanks for the suggestions. I glanced at the flying dragon site but haven't yet made contact to get prices.
Just a followup, the one thing I didn't like about the RWS34 was that it is "medium power," instead of magnum. But maybe that's better for a new shooter? Does that mean it is smoother shooting and easier to shoot accurately?
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well aren't you a new shooter? and just because its medium power does not mean its bad. if you have a high power springer and it/the shooter cant hit the side of a barn with it than there is no point to having more power
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well aren't you a new shooter? and just because its medium power does not mean its bad. if you have a high power springer and it/the shooter cant hit the side of a barn with it than there is no point to having more power
Yes, I am a new shooter. But I was only assuming that the magnums are harder to shoot accurately. Are you saying that my assumption was correct?
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Magnum springers generally have a harsher firing cycle. More power translates into more recoil and movement of the airgun when fired. They take a bit more attention with the hold and follow through. A tuned magnum is a bit tamer. But learn to shoot a magnum springer accurately and IMO, you will be a better shot with ANY gun you pick up.
For a few bucks more you can go as suggested with a Benjamin Discovery pcp and pump. They seem like cheating though, no recoil at all. :)
Welcome to GTA Forums also.
SAFE & Happy Shooting!!!!
Dave
8)
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Do the RWS need a tune before being useful for hunting....definitely not! If you are looking at an RWS refurbed just buy it and start shooting! There are some items that will wear with time and that's when you can do your tune. Springs will not last indefinitely, so if and when it breaks that's when you can do your drop in tune kit.
The RWS would be a great choice...as you can tell they are highly regarded around here!
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Chiming in as a newbie. I have bought two different springers, both under $200, and was squirrel hunting once I had the scope zeroed in and understood artillery hold. Later I discovered this site and began my journey into taking good airguns into better ones (also creating a wishlist of airguns like the RWS34). Point is: just buy one that has a good reputation and start the fun. Mine are a Benjamin Titan and the other is a Stoeger 10x, and there are literally dozens of others to start with. Granted, I don't shoot anything over 20yrd, but as I progress, that distance will increase.
If you can't buy a Stradivarius doesn't mean you shouldn't play music.
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My Ruger Blackhawks, the B25S (which was tuned by Mike Melick) and D34s are all sweet shooting machines that have all done exceptional jobs on more Squirrels, Blackbirds, possums and coons than I can keep track of. Except for the B25S, all the rest were purchased as refurbs and they were all like new when received. Admittedly, all these rifles in my care have all been tuned and in most instances have a stronger than stock spring installed. If you don't know, almost all refurbs are rifles that were bought by newbys that had no idea that you need a LOT of patient and concentrated training to fire them accurately, and since they couldn't get expected accuracy right out of the box, they returned the rifle and probably gave up. That is most likely the reason all mine have been in such perfect condition as received.
You mentioned your expectation of more power in getting a magnum. Yes you can get more power and In my Ruger Air Magnum, the power is there along with great accuracy. The RAM is in the ball park of what you say you want to spend. But, my RAM has been super-tuned and even has a stronger than factory spring also. Also, certainly no small matter for a newby, a magnum springer requires a whole lot more concentrated work and experience to master if accuracy is to be achieved. Probably twice as much work as in learning to accurately and effectively use a non-magnum.
All the folks who have responded to you thus far have given you some really great advice. Now, you have a LOT of thinking to do. You're on the right track! Hope to see a lot more from you on the GTA in the future.
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I'd go with an RWS 34. Great gun and darn good shooter right from the box. I've had my .22 cal 34P for several years now and it's still bone stock. I never did anything to this rifle, all I did was take it out of the box, clean the barrel and start hunting. My 34P is one of my favorite break barrel springers and has taken more rabbits and squirrels than I can remember :) If you decide you want to tune it down the road you can, but I never felt the need as the rifle was just such a great shooter in it's stock form. I have no doubt this rifle would suit your needs perfectly.
Jeff
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Since I was seriously looking at the RWS34, possibly in a refurb, I'm really enjoying the many comments in favor of that gun. Flying dragon does have what appears to be an RWS34 clone, so I think my choice is going to be the RWS, or the clone with a tune up, probably both about the same in cost.
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They are mass produced and need some attention to optimize their potential. Price point doesn't guarantee perfection. Some have too much lube some have too little. You can shoot them out of the box and be content. Once you shoot one that has had some work done you will notice the difference. After working on my first gun, I don't even fire a new one until I have opened it up and given it a tune. We all chase accuracy. Eliminating torque and recoil help.
Get a .22 Diana 34 and you will be happy. Tune it now or tune it later and you will be happier.
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They are mass produced and need some attention to optimize their potential. Price point doesn't guarantee perfection. Some have too much lube some have too little. You can shoot them out of the box and be content. Once you shoot one that has had some work done you will notice the difference. After working on my first gun, I don't even fire a new one until I have opened it up and given it a tune. We all chase accuracy. Eliminating torque and recoil help.
Get a .22 Diana 34 and you will be happy. Tune it now or tune it later and you will be happier.
Sorry for what may be a really stupid question, but is the Diana 34 the same as the RWS34?
Anyway, I think the RWS would be right for me. I going to head over to the German Gate for more info on that. Thank you all for the advice.
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They are mass produced and need some attention to optimize their potential. Price point doesn't guarantee perfection. Some have too much lube some have too little. You can shoot them out of the box and be content. Once you shoot one that has had some work done you will notice the difference. After working on my first gun, I don't even fire a new one until I have opened it up and given it a tune. We all chase accuracy. Eliminating torque and recoil help.
Get a .22 Diana 34 and you will be happy. Tune it now or tune it later and you will be happier.
Sorry for what may be a really stupid question, but is the Diana 34 the same as the RWS34?
Yes, and I agree get a 34 in .22 shoot it some, then have it tuned, you will enjoy
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I think there's only one 34.
But here's the deal. again. I wouldn't want to be stuck shooting one with too much or no lube. Or a torn seal. Or 14 other things that'll make you come on the forum wondering why your new gun won't shoot. Or asking why the trigger is so bad, etc etc etc.
Apparently all the people trying to help you are tinkers. Which is fine but if you don't want to spend your time that way, you need to put value on different things.
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Rws 34 would be a great starter that will be with you for a long time. Dont get cought up in the velocity dream. Most of the advertised velocities are exagerated to sell guns. Get the best quality you can afford. Rws guns shoot well straight from the box and once they get broken in they shoot very well. Most of us crack them open and tune them because we are tinkerers and just cant help it. I cant leave anything alone if there something to make it better. If they made toaster mods mine would be tricked out! The lower end guns will have more room for improvement ya get what you pay for. Mike at flying dragon willget you a good gun at a great price. Biggest thing is clean the barrel make sure the screws are tight and figure out how your gun likes to be held and which pellet it shoots the best. Then shoot the snot out of it and have fun. Planty of time for mods later.
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I have gotten more useful information here in just one day than I got with several weeks worth of my research on other sites. This is great.
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I have gotten more useful information here in just one day than I got with several weeks worth of my research on other sites. This is great.
Welcome to the addiction !
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+1
Cannot go wrong with a Dianawerk M 34 as a First AirGun.
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For getting your feet wet, I would go with a Model 25 (the Diana 34 clone) tuned or at least gone through by Mike at Flying Dragons. That way you need not worry about imperfections and just shoot it. If you are happy with it, great. Don't care for springers? Sell it and get a fair bit back. Do really like them? Get a Diana later on. And, yes, I have Diana's including the 34. The 25 is one of the best Chinese clones btw.
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For getting your feet wet, I would go with a Model 25 (the Diana 34 clone) tuned or at least gone through by Mike at Flying Dragons. That way you need not worry about imperfections and just shoot it. If you are happy with it, great. Don't care for springers? Sell it and get a fair bit back. Do really like them? Get a Diana later on. And, yes, I have Diana's including the 34. The 25 is one of the best Chinese clones btw.
What is the Model 25 that you refer to? Flying Dragon currently lists an XS25, and another member here refered to a B25, are they all the same?
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If you are gonna look at Flying Dragon Airguns. Check out the XS46U.
It's a good deal on a underlever($199.99 with a full tune job), with power. Mike can fix you up. Here's the link:
http://www.flyingdragonairrifles.org/XISICO_XS46U.html (http://www.flyingdragonairrifles.org/XISICO_XS46U.html)
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i just belive a 34 right from the box is the logical choice. i have 2 ,1 in 22 and the other in 177 and neither have had anything done to either but put scopes on them. like all man made things every now and then you will get a lemon. be ware of that even though we all tell you what we would start with. but if hunting a 34 in 22 would be my choice for a low priced gun with power and long life
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for 150 bucks with scope I would seriously consider the Nitro Venom .22, I can shoot this rifle better than I could ever shoot the RWS 34, matter of fact the 34 is gone and the nitro venom is still here :) :)
the shooting cycle of the Venom is sooo much nicer than the twangy noisy rws 34
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for 150 bucks with scope I would seriously consider the Nitro Venom .22, I can shoot this rifle better than I could ever shoot the RWS 34, matter of fact the 34 is gone and the nitro venom is still here :) :)
the shooting cycle of the Venom is sooo much nicer than the twangy noisy rws 34
Okay, I'm willing to explore other options here, especially since you appear to have a lot of experience with air rifles, and I have, uh, zero experience . . . so, have you heard much about the life expectancy of the gas pistons vs the spring rifles?
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I have a Crosman Titan in .22 and it is a great rifle. It needs a scope and mounts upgrade but that is about it. I have taken nutters, crows, possums, bunnies etc with mine. Great rifle and only about $150.
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both units are cheap to replace, ( I'm just about to order 1 piston for the Venom and 2 for the NPXL, just to keep for an eventual need to exchange them )
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The nitro piston is said to last longer than the springs. They are just a easy to replace and the Crosman nitro pistons can be bought at a reasonable price.
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for 150 bucks with scope I would seriously consider the Nitro Venom .22, I can shoot this rifle better than I could ever shoot the RWS 34, matter of fact the 34 is gone and the nitro venom is still here :) :)
the shooting cycle of the Venom is sooo much nicer than the twangy noisy rws 34
Now ya really went and did it...poor fella probably feels like someone stuck an egg beater in his ear and put it on heavy batter ;D. Take each suggestion and put it on a piece of paper...put em all in a hat and pull one out...you cant go wrong!
Better yet, buy one of each and report back!
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The nitro piston is said to last longer than the springs. They are just a easy to replace and the Crosman nitro pistons can be bought at a reasonable price.
Okay, the main thing I don't like is that the Crosman Nitro piston comes with a scope and no open sights. Is there a similar gas piston rifle that comes with open sights?
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IMO a Hatsan 95 or an RWS 34 wouls do the trick. I've never owned a 34, but I would love to. I have a 95 in .177 and it's deadly accurate. Goodluck.
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I was also concerned about no open sights but I really don't miss them. I have had that rifle for several years and it is still my favorite springer I own. I have an xs b16, A walther falcon hunter .25 the Titan, a daisy 880, a 1377, a Crosman 2400kt, and a disco. The Titan and disco are my go to guns.
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Rws 34. refurb on airgun depot for 145. buy a lockdown mount(must have) and a scope and let er rip. You will have no regrets.
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For getting your feet wet, I would go with a Model 25 (the Diana 34 clone) tuned or at least gone through by Mike at Flying Dragons. That way you need not worry about imperfections and just shoot it. If you are happy with it, great. Don't care for springers? Sell it and get a fair bit back. Do really like them? Get a Diana later on. And, yes, I have Diana's including the 34. The 25 is one of the best Chinese clones btw.
What is the Model 25 that you refer to? Flying Dragon currently lists an XS25, and another member here refered to a B25, are they all the same?
The model 25, XS25 and B25 are all referring to clones of the RWS D34 and they are all basically the same. For instance, the Ruger Blackhawk and air Hawk are both B25s. In fact, both of the Rugers are made in the same factory and with the same parts on the same assembly line as the XS25.
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i would get a diana model 34 in .177 (or .22 if you are set on that). actually, an older, used diana 34 or 350 in .22 would be great. call the umarex parts dept and see what refurbs they have. i have bought several from them. if you get a brand new diana, it'll be about 1500 shots before it really breaks in.....but you'll be in love w/ it forever and it will also last forever. the diana model 34 sets the standard for value in the spring/piston airgun world (i measure and compare everything else to it). the hatsan model 95 in .22 is also a great deal. i will show you how to do an easy 'slot-tune'. just call me : 817-986-7767. paul d self of rane air. =ps: you'll see on my website that my first adult airgun was a .177 diana model 36 back in 1985....i have been hooked ever since......and if you insist on chinese, go for the tf89 in .22.
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I hate the idea of throwing my money away on a piece of junk, but I would like to find a decent quality .22 rifle for around $200 that will shoot good and be reliable right out of the box.
I think you can get quite a few good rifles for under $200. I have them, and they are the ones I'm going to still be holding on to when I've sold off ALL my expensive guns.
* Hatsan 95
* RWS 94
* Norica Storm
* Titan GL
* Tech Force 89
And those are just the ones I bought new... Only the TF89 was tuned. I use the Norica as my pesting gun. it is about as accurate as anything I shoot and defined to 10 meters like a target rifle. Pretty as anything I own.
But I got used guns too that I'd never turn away:
* Mendoza 2800
* Hatsan Mod 100
* TF B21
each $80 or less... accurate as I can hold them, and powerful enough for pesting.
I've had guns up to $1000, and several that were supposed to be 'superior' that I ultimately found disappointing. My RWS 54 was about the best power gun I ever shot -- not the most powerful, but the most accurate and easiest to shoot. I don't buy the "you get what you pay for" line very often... But a $150 gun and pretend it has a higher price tag, you'll often do as well ;-)
Especially if you don't have peeves or know specifically what you are going to upgrade to when you put in more money, why bother? Get a gun... enjoy it...learn from it... when you know what you are missing, then start shopping for something else.
Richard
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I can vouch for the 34,
I have 2, a .177 and .22, I tuned both of them. The 22 has the vortek kit and 177 has an OS kit from air rifle headquarters.
They both shoot smooth and from a bench are retardedly accurate. Using the kneeling position have stretched out to 60+ yards to take critters.
Mind you they are a hunting rifle, the true accuracy comes from tuning them and becoming very familiar with it.
I had lost my hunting grounds due to some unfortunate events. I still needed to shoot though, while target practicing at the target box/bird feeder which is 24 yards from the bench. I noticed mice stealing all the seed, as a flat roofer I get home when it is dark out, so they became the new pests.
The 34's have taken mice with headshots at 24 yards, most were smaller then a bic lighter.
The potential for great accuracy is there, just have to bring it out.
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Primary goal of hunting, I'd avoid 177, particularly if new to the sport. 22 will give a little more wiggle room and apply more energy to the critter =better kills. An XS25 from Flying Dragon will do everything you want with a minimum of hassle. You buy it, shiny up the exterior and begin shooting.
The XS46U is proving to be a serious performer and Mike at FD has gotten some pretty impressive power numbers out of them. Again, it will be all set to go out of the box delivered.
If your'e adventurous and willing to put in a little extra time practicing your hold, the XS28 is hard to beat as an all around shooter. 23-24+ fpe, accurate, and reliable. It is a bit barrel heavy, has strong recoil, but once mastered is a varmint killer.
Also, with Flying Dragon, you get better service than you will ever get from any other vendor, period.
I've got several Flying Dragon rifles, and wouldnt part with any of em.
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The good thing about getting a rifle from Mike, is that he'll tune it and ensure it's good to go, when you recieve it, period.
I was just reading another thread here on the GTA, about a RWS34 that needed repair. It cost over $115 for a spring and seal fix from Umarex. Mike wouldn't do you that way, unless you were using it for a ball bat! ;)
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I will say it again and again and again for that price range look to the Diana model 34! This gun can't be beat in that price range or even if the gun was $50-$75 more! With the everyday always PA coupon code that gun can be had delievered for under $200 or slightly over if I remember right.
Good luck.
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I will say it again and again and again for that price range look to the Diana model 34! This gun can't be beat in that price range or even if the gun was $50-$75 more! With the everyday always PA coupon code that gun can be had delievered for under $200 or slightly over if I remember right.
Good luck.
x2 with a 10% off code price is $ 197.95
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wow, if this forum thread doesn't make you want a rws34 then you are hopeless ;D
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wow, if this forum thread doesn't make you want a rws34 then you are hopeless ;D
I am hopeless. ;)
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LOL Me Too ;)
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I can understand the logic behind purchasing a 34. I just can't justify the cost to recieve what amounts to little more than a better finish. The 25 in Ruger or XS dress will perform equally, still have a good finish (not perfect, just good) and cost 1/2. Add in that purchasing a 34 is not a gaurantee you will not need a tune or lube or find problems, and it just doesn't sway me enough to pay the added expense.
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You can get the 34 from Mike FD as well. Xisico are great clones for the 350/34. Many parts interchange. It all just depends on how DEEP YOUR POCKETS ARE.
As far as MIKE FD, you can't beat the guy, always willing to help anyone that will listen.JMO ;)
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I can understand the logic behind purchasing a 34. I just can't justify the cost to recieve what amounts to little more than a better finish. The 25 in Ruger or XS dress will perform equally, still have a good finish (not perfect, just good) and cost 1/2. Add in that purchasing a 34 is not a gaurantee you will not need a tune or lube or find problems, and it just doesn't sway me enough to pay the added expense.
X2 Paul. If we were talking a 350, that would be a different story. Here's a Ruger Blackhawk for sale at 1/2 the 34 cost, in the classifieds:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=40501.0;topicseen (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=40501.0;topicseen)
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good points.. maybe after reading this thread and you still buy a 34, then you are hopeless.. :o
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After recently being edumacated on the "low rent" nature of the RWS 34 in 2012, I went to three different places (in two States) and looked at 5 different guns to see first hand what they looked like. I WILL NOT BE RECOMMENDING A 34 based on what I saw and felt. I did this because I have friends asking me what to buy! They see my Trail NP and love what it does but flip out over the price and what I've had to do to it to get it to shoot.
I can confirm that they DO still say "Made in Germany" on the receivers, but the "workmanship" is only MARGINALLY better than what I see on the frigggin' Chicom guns!..and the Chicom/non-German guns were smoother! I see now why so much is ballyhooed about the "break-in" because the 34's I saw were ROUGH AS A COB!
This will start to sound like a broken record, but if you buy a 34, plan on immediately tuning it /working on it. The 34 is no doubt a great gun in tuned state and many aftermarket parts are available for it. So that's a huge plus. ..even better, try to find an OLD ONE!
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Okay, the main thing I don't like is that the Crosman Nitro piston comes with a scope and no open sights. Is there a similar gas piston rifle that comes with open sights?
You don't need a scope if you don't want one, get a dot sight for it.
https://www.pyramydair.com/accessories/dot-sights (https://www.pyramydair.com/accessories/dot-sights)
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http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/XISICO_XS25.html (http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/XISICO_XS25.html)
http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/XISICO_XS-B26.html (http://flyingdragonairrifles.org/XISICO_XS-B26.html)
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I can understand the logic behind purchasing a 34. I just can't justify the cost to recieve what amounts to little more than a better finish. The 25 in Ruger or XS dress will perform equally, still have a good finish (not perfect, just good) and cost 1/2. Add in that purchasing a 34 is not a gaurantee you will not need a tune or lube or find problems, and it just doesn't sway me enough to pay the added expense.
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I agree, I have owned both a 34 and a XS25. a 25 from Mike tuned will be a smoother shooter than an out of the box 34, and still be cheaper. but really ALL guns will benfit from a tune no matter how much they cost.
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I just bought a fully tuned XS25 from Mike Mellick. I bought it as a Christmas gift for my Father-in-law. It shoots hard and true. I like it and he loves it. It has the iron sights which are fiber optic, but I'd highly recommend putting a scope on it.
Richard
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May I recommend a Mike Melick Tuned Gas Ram XS46U......(underlever cocking) it's a powerful rifle.
Only trouble is he's currently sold out of the .22 caliber.......alot of interest there! He thinks March will be new ones coming in. I have bought from Mike before....great value in an air rifle from him!
PaperPunch1
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I bought my first budget rifle after a lot of research, I couldn't afford a name brand rifle so I new that it would most likely need some sort of tuning. I was prepared when it arrived and luckily it was in much better shape than I was expecting, however since I already knew of all the short comings I started basic lube tuning. It has been a rewarding experience, I enjoy tinkering almost as much as shooting. I decided to save and invest in a better quality rifle, my budget was 5-6 hundred bucks and I was planning to get the German springer of my dreams and began researching again. I made the mistake one day of searching "problems with ____", well that changed everything. If I lived in the U.S. I would buy from a vendor like Flying Dragon for sure or another like Mac1 for an inspected and pretuned rifle, because if your not prepared to work on them to be certain that the bugs are out then buy debugged. For me I decided that since I enjoy working on my rifles I would buy one that I don't need a machineshop to clear up the possible defects, just hand tools.