GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: JMJ in NC on December 07, 2012, 03:58:21 PM
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I'm considering getting an inexpensive backyard 10m target gun with peep sights. The Baikal IZH-60 or 61 is on my short list. Does anyone have experience with the newer versions with the polymer receiver (versus the older metal receiver). Is the trigger good, and tuneable?
Also, how loud are they?
FWIW, I'm also considering a refurbished Avanti 853 through CMP.
My price point is under $150.
Thanks - JMJ
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I have never tried the metal receiver version but I do have a new Izzy 60. The trigger is non adjustable but is actually quite good for a 100.00 gun. Its super accurate and very quiet.
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I have both the IZH 60-ver 2 (with the plastic receiver) and the Daisy 853 (modified to 853CM specs)
re the IZH
The trigger of the IZH 60 is excellent, better than many more expensive rifles. I never had a desire to adjusted it from where it came set from the factory.
But the pistol grip/trigger setup seems designed for someone with a small hand. If you have a large hand/long fingers, the grip will feel small to you.
The IZH is not loud, but I always shoot w ear muffs/plugs.
You may have trouble finding aperture sights for the IZH.
Pyramid sells this setup. https://www.pyramydair.com/product/izh-60-target-pro-air-rifle?m=2894 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/izh-60-target-pro-air-rifle?m=2894)
But if you look at pix #10, the front aperture is above the center of the front sight tube. This will give you a tricky sight picture. The aperture "should be" centered in the front sight tube. But that is the only front aperture setup that I know of for the IZH-60/61. Note that this kit uses the cheap Air Venturi rear sight, not the better Gamo rear sight.
An alternative is to put a Williams (or other) rear peep sight on the IZH and use the stock front post sight. The post front sight is not the best setup for target shooting, but is quite useable.
re the 853.
The 853 has better accuracy potential than the IZH. This is because being a SSP, there is no recoil/vibration when it fires. This makes it much easier to shoot it more accurately.
If the trigger has not been modified or broken in, you really want to tune the trigger (easy to do). The stock Daisy trigger is not very good. The trigger sear is unfinished and does not have a smooth pull. If it is bad enough (like on my 953) it will really mess up your accuracy, as you will be fighting the trigger and not paying attention to the sight picture. Once the trigger is tuned, the 853 is a good rifle.
Because you cock the hammer separate from charging the rifle with air, you can dry fire the rifle. This makes dry fire practice possible with the 853. You CANNOT dry fire the IZH-60.
The diopter/aperture sights on the 853 is not the better sights, but it works. Upgrading the sights to the better Gamo sights will cost as much as the CMP refurb rifle, or you can get the cheaper Air Venturi sights and 753 barrel weight.
If you get the CMP refurb 853, and you intend to shoot off-hand, you want to get the "monte carlo" stock. This stock has the vertical pistol grip, which I find is easier to use than the more horizontal pistol grip of the standard 853.
This is another option. This is a Daisy 953 with the Air Venturi diopter sights.
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/daisy-powerline-953-targetpro-target-sights?m=2610 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/daisy-powerline-953-targetpro-target-sights?m=2610)
The 953 is not as accurate as the 853, but IMHO most of us won't be able to see that accuracy difference.
My 953 is setup just like this, but I have the better Gamo sight on mine.
IMHO, the shape of the 953 stock is better for off-hand target shooting than the 853 with the sportster stock. It is shaped the same as the monte carlo stock of the CMP refurb 853. The heavier 953 plastic stock is also an advantage.
The 953 will NEED the trigger tuned (easy DIY job), to smoothen out the trigger pull.
Bottom line, for casual 10m target shooting, I prefer my tuned 953 or 853CM over my IZH-60.
However, if kids are involved, the IZH has a "cool factor" that cannot to be ignored. It looks like it came from Starwars. :-)
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Fantastic feedback guys. Very much appreciated.
JMJ
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JMJ
What is your measured LoP?
The IZH has an adjustable stock from 12-14.5"
The 853 has a 12" LoP, adjustable with spacers.
The 953 has a 12" LoP, could be adjustable w spacers from the 853 and longer butt pad screws.
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The LoP on my arm is 14.5". The LoP on my 2 guns are 15" and almost 16". These fit me fine, though.
I'm leaning towards the Avanti, as I like the lower recoil.
JMJ
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You mean the NO RECOIL of the Avanti. ;D
If you shoot from the standing position, then the rifle would probably do with a LoP of about 14.5 inches. If you shoot from a bench, then a longer LoP would be appropriate.
2-1/2 inches is a bit long to extend the LoP.
There are ways to extend the LoP, but 2-1/2 inches may be tough.
You might be lucky and get a stock with a longer LoP. I have an 853 stock with a 13 inch LoP. This will give you less of an extension to make.
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Right. No recoil.
I have no issues doing modifications or tuning. Here's a 1377 that started life as a $35 refurb. Now it's a 10fpe quiet squirrel gun.
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd418/JMJinNC/Crosman%20PC77%20Carbine/IMG_3685.jpg)
JMJ
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John,
The ver 1 trigger is NOT a "5-way adjustable" trigger, there are only 4 screws.
In looking at both ver 1 (old steel receiver) and ver 2 (current plastic receiver) rifles side by side here are the screws around the trigger blade that I can see.
- Forward of the trigger blade, on the ver 1 there are 2 screws, ver 2 has 1 screw (trigger travel/sear engagement). The missing screw is discussed later.
- On the trigger blade, on both there is 1 screw (trigger position, I think vertical position of the trigger blade on the rod)
- Behind the trigger blade, on both there is 1 screw (trigger pull/weight)
The ver 2 trigger appears to be essentially the same trigger as the ver 1, minus one adjustment screw.
While I thought I had the manual for a ver 1 rifle, I only have the manual for the ver 2, so I do not have anything that specifies what adjustment the missing screw does. However, from looking at the diagram of the ver 2 trigger, I think the missing screw is a stage 1 adjustment. If so, the ver 2 is a single stage trigger, whereas the ver 1 is a 2 stage trigger (if adjusted to use the 2nd screw). That is the only difference that I could find between my ver 1 and ver 2 triggers.
I did not tinker with the adjustments of the trigger of my ver 2, it was just fine out of the box. And it is much better than the triggers of most of my other sportster air rifles. So you won't miss much with the ver 2 trigger.
Having said all this, I found another manual online where the drawing of the trigger does not show the screw in the back of the trigger blade, the trigger pull/weight screw. Did they change the trigger again, I do not know. That was a drawing, not a photograph, so that screw may or may not have been removed.
Having seen the IZH disappear from the US market for several years, my recommendation to you is to get one NOW. There is no guarantee that the rifle will be available, the importer may again decide to stop importing the rifle...for whatever reason.
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JMJ
I wrote a post in the target shooting discussion below that talk about modifications to improve the x53 trigger.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,39648.0.html (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,39648.0.html)
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Thanks for the link. Much appreciated & great reading.
JMJ
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...Having seen the IZH disappear from the US market for several years, my recommendation to you is to get one NOW. There is no guarantee that the rifle will be available, the importer may again decide to stop importing the rifle...for whatever reason.
You do know that Pyramid is the Baikal-IZH importer? I got my 61 last summer & found that the trigger needs no adjustment of any kind. Pyramid's specs of 1.4 lbs is very wrong, more like 3 lbs. At the current price of $100, why wait?
BTW, the IZH Drozd thread adapter fits right on the 61. Converts the 11mm barrel threads to 1/2"x28. The Hogue Handall Jr. fits the grip. The buttpad I found on a stock in the trash, it doesn't fit real tight, but 2 screws keep it in place.
(http://home.comcast.net/~smithmonte/images/firearms/izh61_2.jpg)
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I did not know Pyramid was the importer.
When I got my ver2 IZH60 several years go from Pyramid, it was an "import mistake" by the importer, whoever the importer was at the time. The IZH 60/61 had stopped being imported, then that one batch came in "by mistake" and when it was gone, that was it for years. Having seen that happen, as well as the halt importing the Slavia 630/631 (which I think is still sold in Europe), tells me that you have to get it when you can, as we are at the mercy of the importer.
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for your price point, your absolute best bet is the 953. After that I traded up for a 753... and even now that i have a really nice collection with several classic 10 M guns... i still have an avanti... I got the 888 medalist. Fill it once and shoot about 95 times without a 2 fps variation... and is the fastest of the avanti rifles... mine shoots 540 with the hobbies... I love them
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Update:
I was waiting for a used Avanti 753 or 853 Monte Carlo to come up in the classifieds. I just bought a re-certified (new seals, velocity checked) 853 with Monte Carlo stock for $105 shipped. It should be a fun project gun - trigger mods, piston mod, LOP spacers, etc.
Thanks for the assistance, all.
JMJ
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John
Watch out for the piston mod. I read one post where the poster discovered the reason for the depression where he put epoxy to increase the velocity. The valve stem goes into the depression. Too much epoxy and the piston will hit the valve stem.
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Thanks ac12 for the piston/valve information as well as all the other valuable information provided thus far.
JMJ
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I think you will enjoy the 853.
I enjoy shooting my 953 ;D
Post a question or shoot me a PM if you have any questions when you get your 853.
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Okay since we are on this subject. This is a partial review on the 853C to power it up. Does anyone have knowledge of this?
quoted:
This rifle is rated at 495 fps, to allow non-licensed personnel to use it, however this can be altered. We disassembled one of our team rifles, and changed the spring. The rifle then tested at 600 fps, and regularly punched through our heavy rubber-coated canvas backsheets.
Now in this mod could it be the hammer spring or the valve spring?
As for filling the piston with epoxy it may cause cocking problems and put strain on the cocking arm pivot point.
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@Kailua
hmmm, could be either.
- a lighter valve spring, easier to open and probably close slower.
- a heavier hammer spring, I think this is the common way to adjust power in gas guns (co2 and PCP/CA) by how hard the hammer hits the valve, but this will increase the pressure on the trigger sear.
Where did you find that posting? It would be good to get more info from the poster, especially where to get the replacement spring and the specs/part number of the spring.
I found this on the Canadian AG forum
< I did the mod to the piston end as mentioned on the 54 forum, and shot around 515 fps. Next I drilled out the hole in the valve spring retainer,"I don't remember to what size, approx 1/8th" or larger, and got a little over 600 fps. The only problem was the accuracy fell off at that speed so I replaced the valve spring retainer and left it at 500 + fps. The accuracy returned.
I assumed the barrel twist was optimally set for under 500 fps. If you do buy one and decide to mod the piston end, be careful to leave enough room so the end doesn't hit the valve retainer. That,s what I did at first, by rounding it up. I didn't do any damage as I was just touching it enough to leave an imprint on the JB weld. I didn't try a stronger hammer spring, but that might be another approach. >
In this case, the hole he drilled allowed more air to flow thru the hole in the valve retainer.
In looking at the pix from the Daisy repair slides, I was mistaken, the valve stem faces the hammer, not the compression piston. So filing the front of the piston would still be an option. As long as it does not impact the end of the compression chamber.
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I agree I wouldn't want more pressure on the sear. I guess if at 600 fps and it it affects accuracy it might involve a different pellet. I probably will leave well enough alone being it does shoot fast enough for the range I use the rifle for. Then again I did order the 853C barrel for the 953 and it should come with a valve spring retainer so I would have an extra. Figured I would like a chrony one day might have to get one.
The post on the spring change was in 2009. It was the first one listed.
http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews80972.html (http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews80972.html)
And sorry I am taking this off subject. Will stop here if need to will start a new one under a new subject.
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@Kailua
DANG, I would have liked to contact the poster to find out what spring he changed.
Agree, change the velocity, and you have to do another set of pellet tests to find the best shooting pellet.
I would try the lighter pistol pellets and see if that makes a difference. Next time I set up the chrony I might just try that, and compare the pistol and rifle pellets.
Enlarging the hole seems like a simple easily reversable mod.
I might order an extra valve retainer the next time I order stuff from Daisy.
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That would be great ac12. I may just need to get a chrony. Can't experiment with power adjustments with out one. DUH
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I got my 853 Monte Carlo today. Stock needs some TLC but it has some decent grain and color. The LOP is crazy short for me (12" vs 16" for me) and the included spacers are a miss-match and still too short. Time to make a custom extension.
Rear sight came unmounted. It looks to be a tad bent down when viewed from the side. There were some plastic washers included with the 5899 sight, but no instructions - anyone have a scan of the 5899 parts list?
Finally - do all 853's have the LW barrel - how can you tell - is it marked somewhere?
Thanks - JMJ
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If you go to Daisy Outdoor Products and click on Avanti 853 it will show a download on the manual and parts break down.
http://www.daisy.com/sites/default/files/manuals/853_series_english.pdf (http://www.daisy.com/sites/default/files/manuals/853_series_english.pdf)
As for the barrel it should come with the Lothar Walther barrel with 12 lands and grooves if that is a way to telling. Does it have a part no? Might have to take rifle apart as the barrel and valve assembly are one complete part. GL
I just checked the 953 barrel and valve assembly and did not have a part no. The barrel looks like it has 12 lands a grooves also. So I personally would not know if it is a Lothar Walther barrel that you have. Hope someone can help you or call Daisy Outdoor Products customer service. They might know how to verify this. I am curious to know also.
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All 853s "should" have the Walther barrel.
If the sight is damaged, contact the CMP for a replacement. I understand that they are good about that kind of stuff for the rifles they sell.
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Thanks guys. I did not buy through CMP but I've heard Daisy has great customer service. If my online inquiry doesn't generate a response I'll call them about proper setup, etc.
I intend to pull the action out of the stock at some point to do the trigger tune and refinish the stock.
I'll start a new thread for that. JMJ
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JMJ
For the trigger, start with reading this post
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=39648.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=39648.0)
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When setting the trigger to light and you load a pellet and then when the lever slam shut it might prematurely fire. It is safer to cock rifle them load pellet. JMO
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the 853 does have a walther lothar barrel. only the 953 does not. But i guess they forgot to tell it cuz the 953 shoot great also... ;)