GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: TR on October 08, 2012, 10:24:38 PM
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I need some advice from some experienced marauder owners.
I purchased a .25 marauder from Pyramid Air. After about 200 shots of it working ok, the bolt started to get extremely difficult to operate. If I could get the bolt all the way cocked, the bolt would slide freely in its chase. I thought there may be a problem with the spring.
I sent this rifle back to PA and they shipped me a new one.
Now I'm several hundred shots into the break in period of my second marauder, and I'm having the same issue again. Sometimes I have to put 30-40 lbs of pressure against the bolt to get the sear to cock. I have applies a drop of RWS spring lube oil on each end of the bolt, and it will get better for a few shots, then it is back to very hard pulling.
Any advice would be appreciated. I'm not too excited to send another rifle back to Pyramid, so I thought I would seek out the advice of experienced airgunners.
Thanks for the help.
TR
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My 25 is much harder to cock than my 22 was. Particularly at higher fill pressures. I assumed it was just the nature of the 25 settings.
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EDIT: Here's a picture of my bolt rash from all the hard cocking that I've had on my finger for 2 weeks now.
(http://www.imgnook.com/14Xewo.jpg)
TR I've had the same problems with my .22 disco, also bought from PA. I've troubleshooted with 2 tubes, 2 trigger assemblies(mrod & disco), 3 hammers(challenger & 2 stock), 2 breeches(1 with power adjuster, other stock), and 2 springs(heavy & stock). None solved the issue. The only thing that did temporarily fix it was lubing the tube and hammer(including the pin and top of tube where pin rides) with silicone oil(don't use silicone grease). That only lasted around 40 shots then the problem came back.
I think the problem may be two fold:
1. from the hammer pin being mounted so far back on it instead of in the center of the hammer which causes the hammer to tilt down in the breech causing friction.
2. The hammer OD is just a little bit too narrow. If they were made were made just around 1/64” larger then there would be less room for it to tilt down in the tube even with the pin mounted toward the back.
Now with the power adjuster completely out and just using slight thumb pressure against the spring the hammer still did not want to slide back when I attempted to cock it several times before lubing it. So that’s my best guess right now is that a lot of the hammers are made just a little too narrow OD for the tubes where this problem occurs sometimes. We need to find someone who can make us a hammer with a slightly larger OD to try and see if that will resolve the problem.
That may be Lloyd but if anyone knows of someone else that could do that then please let us know. I also thought that finishing the hammer with cerakote may add enough OD to the hammer for it to glide better in the tube, plus that would make it more smooth as well to also help it glide better. I'll measure my hammer and tube then we'll know what increased size hammer we need to try.
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make sure the cocking lug is screwed all the way into the bolt. They sometimes work loose and make the bolt difficult to operate.
Another thing to try is loosen the 2 screws that hold the trigger pack to the tube. Push the trigger group forward and tighten the screws.
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Oh I forgot to include that I even tried that too Boyd and it made no difference screwed all the way into the bolt vs turned out around 1/4" from the bolt in my case.
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is the probe assembly on too tight? If it's too tight it will drag along the bolt when you pull or push it.
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is the probe assembly on too tight? If it's too tight it will drag along the bolt when you pull or push it.
I'm not sure where to access the probe assembly... I'll try to define the problem I'm having.
Sometimes the bolt works the action with no problem. Other times, after I shoot a pellet, the bolt will not rotate easily (to unlock the bolt), then it becomes a struggle to bring the bolt back. Sometimes it will yield to pressure, but occasionally I have been pulling as hard as I can and it won't budge. If I wiggle and cajole it, while pulling back hard, I can eventually get it to cock. After it is cocked, the bolt will slide freely forwards and backwards.
I'm not that familiar with the inside of the marauder (but I get a feeling like I am going to be), but is this normal behavior for a brand new marauder? And am I just lucky that it has happened to me twice?
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I had that problem with mine when I first got it and found out the problem was the "cocking lug" on the left side of the receiver. The lug kept loosening and it would make the bolt darn near impossible to operate. It may not be whats wrong with your rifle but it was driving me crazy on mine. Harry (only1Harry) was having the same problem with his.
Jeff
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Y'all are scarin' me. Considering a 25 cal Marauder purchase and this is not at all what I wanted to hear. I found no such behaviour with my 22 cal and from what I know of the differences it should not be hapening to the 25 cal if everything is where it should be. I'd keep sending it back; if Crosman gets tired of acquiring guns for the refurb outlet maybe they'll fix it...:) In the mean time you'll be doing your part so that folks can buy cheap refurbs.
cheers,
Douglas
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TR same here, hence the bolt rash as pictured in my first post.
Jeff did Harry get that issue fixed or is he still having problems?
Btw I'm not glad that others have been experiencing this but it's comforting to know that I'm not the only one that's been going through this anymore since for two months now I thought otherwise.
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Sounds as if DETENT ball on rear/top of receiver is too tight or detent divot within bolt is not profiled just right ?
TEST ... Unscrew and remove detent ASSEMBLY ( Make sure Screw/Spring/Detent all come out together and don't loose the 3 pieces )
Cycle action as you normally would ... If this cures the issue ? ... tell us and we can then talk about a fix.
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Harry does the same thing I do, which is just make sure the lug is tight periodically, and I haven't had any more problems.
JEff
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Definitly sounds like the screw in the bottom of the bolt is loose or bent. You might want to check the sleeve on the bolt for any spurs.
Once cocked the bolt should move freely as described. The only thing left that applies tension is the detent on the top/rear of the bolt.
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I brushed on a VERY light coating of moly paste onto the WIDE part of the bolt. Also, like other posters have stressed: make sure that all screws in the bolt assembly are tight. But the screw/ball detent on top of the reciever needn't be anything but snug. Snug enough for the ball dent to engage the dimples in the bolt. Whatver is causing your stiffness of cocking is VERY solvable. And to the man who stated that these comments is scaring you from making a purchase: You will be very happy with your 25 Marauder!!! Likely, more happy with it than your 22. They are so accurate that I may likely own another one soon so that I can modify the stock, although many fold love the stock just the way it is. For the money, to me, it's the best PCP deal going: the 25 Marauder. But then, I may get a 177 cal for FT.
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Same thing was going on with mine, turns out the screw on top if the hammer was loose an my gauge was wrong and I was putting to much air in it. Got a new gauge put a little moly on the hammer and tightened the screw in the hammer slot. Just a thought. Yours may be completely different.
Bob
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Ok I measured the hammer and tube. The hammer's OD is a full 1/32" smaller than the tube's ID which is a lot of room for slack. So cerakote will not make up that large difference. It will need to be machined. The current hammer OD measurement is 23/32", and the tube's ID is 24/32". So another 1/64" could be added to the hammer's ID to take up a lot of the space, or even 3/128" which would take up a little more space if someone could machine a hammer in those increments.
I forgot to mention that in my case sometimes the rifle only puffs when fired and it shouldn't considering the ways I have everything adjusted. Have you guys also experienced this with the cocking problem? I'll have to try adjusting my mrod trigger again since it's only puffing with pellets in the barrel, yet it sounds like it fires ok without them. This will be around the 5th time I've had to adjust the trigger to solve the issue temporarily which always comes back.
I must admit after two months of this mess my love for the dark side is fading and burners are calling me to come back. I hope I can find a solve soon because I'm tired of all this.
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As has already been said, when things change for no apparent reason, it is often from something that is loose or moving around. So check for tightness of all the bolts. But there is more.
A common problem that I see in all airguns (the ones I make, too) are burrs. Especially in places that are hard to get too. Feel inside along all the slots and corners. The should all have absolutely no burr, and preferably should have a slight chamfer. Use some jewlers files or deburring tools or stone files to knock off any edges. Then clean it out real good. Debris left after deburring can make the problem worse. (And be carefull with sand paper. Want to throw sand in your gun?) One trouble spot is the slot that the socket head screw in the top of the air tube that hammer slides back and forth in. If there was a burr there (or anywhere else) you can be sure that pulling real hard on the hammer has only made it worse.
So after you have it all deburred and cleaned, put the hammer back in (the breech block must still be off) and put the socket head screw in it. Push it back and forth at odd angles and see if you can make it bind up. Is the bottom rear corner of the hammer binding? If you can feel any dragging, stone the offending edge or corner until it slides easily.
Now check the spring and the rear adjuster. At squirrel killers urging, I just took mine apart and I noticed that the spring preload adjuster showed worn areas on the front O.D. edges. When I pushed the spring back onto the adjuster, it tended to snag-snag-snag, as the coils were compressed past that edge. And they age going to do the same thing when the sear releases the hammer and spring. I will stone a little radius onto the front of the adjuster before I reinstall it. Check the mouth of the hammer where the spring enters, too. When the gun is cocked, the spring is compressed almost solid and it is trying to kink out in the middle, so it will bind up on any corners.
With the breech still off the gun, feel inside with a q-tip and see if it snags. Fix any snags. Reinstall the bolt into the breech, along with its socket head screw and slide it back and forth while putting some side pressure on the handle. Find and fix any snags.
When you are fully satisfied that all of the individual pieces will move smoooothly in their mating parts, then put it back together, one piece at a time, and check for smoothness at each step.
Very important, and already mentioned: make sure you install the little metal sleeve on the bolt retention socket head screw.
A few drops of lube on the sliding parts are always a good idea so long as they aren't just used to mask the problem.
Attention to detail with all the moving and sliding parts in the hammer train will reward you with shot to shot consistency. Work on it when you are in a "patient" mood, not in a rush.
That's how I do it, anyway, and I know there are folks who have even better ways to approach it.
Lloyd-ss
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I had that problem with mine when I first got it and found out the problem was the "cocking lug" on the left side of the receiver. The lug kept loosening and it would make the bolt darn near impossible to operate. It may not be whats wrong with your rifle but it was driving me crazy on mine. Harry (only1Harry) was having the same problem with his.
Jeff
Thank you all for your helpful suggestions.
The little allen head socket screw (#27 on the Benjamin Marauder exploded view parts list from Crosman) that screws into the front part of the bolt had backed out and become loose. A bit of loc-tite, tightened the screw back up. The rifle is shooting like butter now.
Thanks for the help. Being new to PCP's, it is nice to know that there is a resevoir of knowledge and experience out there to help a newbie.
TR
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Nothing better than a happy ending :)
Now just shoot and have fun :)
Jeff
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Nothing better than a happy ending :)
Now just shoot and have fun :)
Jeff
YEP.........
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I'll be getting a larger hammer made to try and solve the issue since the bolt screw does not cause it in my case.
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I have a bnm breech on my disco which came with no sleeve between the bolt and screw.
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Sorry please remove
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No worries. On both since I'm having the same problem. Mine is part mrod at this point anyway I guess with the mrod items on my disco. A disco/mrod hybrid if you will. hehe
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I have a bnm breech on my disco which came with no sleeve between the bolt and screw.
I have a BNM breech as well, and right now I am having the same problem.
Using a long set screw to engage the hammer pin is not a good idea. Overtime the threads of the set screw will gouge the inside of the breech and shavings can get in the bolt area and jam the bolt (happened to me), so I made a new screw to replace the set screw and it helped. It eliminated the side to side play of the bolt and gave a more positive contact with the pin on the hammer.
Now that I am using an even heavier spring it is really bad. It is even worse on a new Don C. SS hammer and 2260 PCP tube that has a rough inside surface finish. This along with the bolt forcing the back of the hammer down and the front of the hammer up makes it impossible to cock the gun. I have tried sanding and polishing the inside of the tube and hammer. it helped very little.
Now I am working on a way to make the contact between the bolt and hammer pin as parallel as possible, which I believe will solve the problem. Or make a new hammer with closer tolerances might help as well. Patiently waiting on my new Sherline lathe to arrive.
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Well rj if the larger hammer works for me I'll definitely post about it here so you can try that as well. The threads of the screw shouldn't be touching the breech since the screw's head OD is larger than the threads. I have scrapes on the breech guide rails from the screw head scraping against them which has given me shavings. As for the tube I wonder if the inside can be cerakoted. If so then that may make the tube's surface more smooth for the hammer to glide on.
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Sergio shipped mine with a set screw instead of a socket head screw. I am glad he is doing that now.
I have some Durabake and I wonder if it is the same as Cerakote?
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I had that problem with mine when I first got it and found out the problem was the "cocking lug" on the left side of the receiver. The lug kept loosening and it would make the bolt darn near impossible to operate. It may not be whats wrong with your rifle but it was driving me crazy on mine. Harry (only1Harry) was having the same problem with his.
Jeff
Thank you all for your helpful suggestions.
The little allen head socket screw (#27 on the Benjamin Marauder exploded view parts list from Crosman) that screws into the front part of the bolt had backed out and become loose. A bit of loc-tite, tightened the screw back up. The rifle is shooting like butter now.
Thanks for the help. Being new to PCP's, it is nice to know that there is a resevoir of knowledge and experience out there to help a newbie.
TR
I was going to suggest that but it looks like you figured it out. Marauders come very poorly put together. If you dont tighten everything it will all rattle loose. Other then that good guns.
Ken
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After this experience, I think I will take my nice new marauder and give it a full dissassembly. that way I'll know that everything is tight and secure. I'll also be able to visualize the channel where the bolt screw engages the hammer to see if there is any damage there.
TR
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yea and use lloyd-ss method. patience and pay carefull attention to the moving parts etc. ;D
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TR same here, hence the bolt rash as pictured in my first post.
Jeff did Harry get that issue fixed or is he still having problems?
The 'cocking lug' on the left side of my .25 Mrod was very slightly loose when I first got it, and 10 days later I had to tighten it again for the 2nd time, after Jeff told me his was loose when he got his brand new .25. I am thinking Loctite now. The cocking gets maybe 10% better after tightening this screw, but I still think it's hard to cock it back, and it's always making "crunchy" noises when driving the bolt back, which many have told me is "normal". I do not have another Marauder to compare so I just live with it and accept it.
It 's not as hard to cock as yours, and it does not leave me with any marks, but I think it should be cocking smoother, and a little easier. All I have to compare it to is my 3 AF Condors that cock like butter and with ease (1 finger), and my RWS/Hammerli 850 which cocks smoothly too. With my .25 Mrod it is not a seemless movement back with the bolt. Mine requires more strength half way back, almost like it's snagging on something. It's probably burrs and such as Lloyd explained, and poor QA I guess, or an issue in the manufacturing process or tolerances, the way they make these parts, which could be stamping them out. Wouldn't it be nice if all the parts were CNC machined? :)
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I firmly believe it's the part design and tolerances that should be improved where customers don't have to do it themselves and go through months of aggravation with their products. I'm not too impressed with Crosman at this point.
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Same thing here with my .22 ... tho have massaged parts to get em sliding smoother and now we are cocking satisfactory.
*BOTH Screw in hammer and Screw in bolt have had the rough O.D. of there socket heads smoothed out & polished .
*Slot within hammer area of main tube hammer screw above slides within DEBURRED and polished along the edges.
*Cocking bolt polished on it's O.D. where in contact with receiver.
*Back end of hammers I.D. cleaned and polished.
*Hammer spring pre-load collar that runs within springs I.D. polished.
Gun cocks SUBSTANTIALLY smoother now.
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Same thing here with my .22 ... tho have massaged parts to get em sliding smoother and now we are cocking satisfactory.
*BOTH Screw in hammer and Screw in bolt have had the rough O.D. of there socket heads smoothed out & polished .
*Slot within hammer area of main tube hammer screw above slides within DEBURRED and polished along the edges.
*Cocking bolt polished on it's O.D. where in contact with receiver.
*Back end of hammers I.D. cleaned and polished.
*Hammer spring pre-load collar that runs within springs I.D. polished.
Gun cocks SUBSTANTIALLY smoother now.
I think you have just described a few of the things that make the difference between a $300 gun and a $700 gun. Good work.
Lloyd-ss
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I firmly believe it's the part design and tolerances that should be improved where customers don't have to do it themselves and go through months of aggravation with their products. I'm not too impressed with Crosman at this point.
I was never too impressed with Crosman :) They put out cheap/average guns and that's it. Most of their guns need work right out of the box, or will need work or mods soon down the road. Look at the Disco. I have read maybe 200-300 new topics on the GTA over the years, about the bolt snaping out of place when shooting, and not staying closed/locked. Crosman still has NOT fixed this problem 4.5yrs after the 1st Disco came out. Definitely a design issue and parts (selection) issue, but it looks like once they make a product that sells, they don't try to improve it, and that's wrong. They only improved their latest $2K PCP because noone was buying it. But because they sell so many $200-450 Disco & Marauders, they think everything is fine, and there is no need to fix defects or improve anything. If it weren't for airgun forums where people go to learn how to fix these guns or defects themselves, Crosman would be getting 50-100X more returns for warranty repair. They are lucky we have the Internet and ease of information exchange. Without that, they would have to hire more staff to fix them, or there would be a 4-6 month waiting period to get your Mrod back from repair.
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sorry no post.Bob
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Today I installed a hammer debounce device on my Marauder. While taking it apart, I can see the mechanics of my "bolt hard to operate" problem.
The cap screw that fastens to the left front side of the bolt (visible in the little cutout on the left of the receiver area, just behind the breech) had worked it way loose and backed itself out a little bit. When I tried to cock the bolt, the increased length of the cap screw would put pressure down on the front of the hammer, causing the hammer to bind in its raceway. The more it loosened up, the worse my problem got. After tightening up this screw, the bolt worked just fine.
Fortunately, I noted no metal shavings or wear marks in the internals of the marauder (Whew...)
The lesson learned here for me is to go through and tighten up all the fasteners on a new rifle. You never know...
TR