GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: 1377x on September 19, 2012, 08:33:05 AM
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i am using a jds tank adapter on a 2300 tube
if anyone has a similar set up,what size tank are you using?
i guess what i need to know is whats the largest tank i can use safely
planning on using a 13ci tank,if i can get away with using a 22ci tank without damaging the tube then i would use a 22ci tank.
any info and help will be appreciated
ED
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The 22ci does not weigh much more than the 13ci tank. Either will work. However, the 22ci will shift the weight further forward and make the gun more front heavy which you may or may not like.
I have used both the 13 and 22 on my QB79 and prefer the 13.
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Mostly a matter of weight. Same output pressure, so same stress inside the tube reguardless of the size of the bottle, but the .22Ci bottle is heavier and longer (so a longer lever).
JDS's tank block has been modded for a better screw location, and if installed right, should take either size tank (and doesn't he have a new one that's even longer?).
With the QB, have the option of bedding the block to the stock for a bit of support, which may help if serious bashing about it expected....but the JDS's better screw location is probably stronger.
Like the last post, found the 22 kind of over powered the thin/lite nature of Crosman conversions. Worked fine, but with the 22CI tank felt I was shooting tank with a gun attached.
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thanks for the info!
i just got the adapter last week,couldnt you if it was the old or new one???
the tube mods were done professionally,by our very own Lloyd Sikes.i'll post pics when i can
13ci tank is what im going to stick with,then. im thinking a regulated pressure of 1400 psi. i had a disco valve that shot cphp the fastest at 1100psi,960fps or mayme it was 970fps.i was using a 1377 hammer spring,light valve and rva iirc.i know with the full on mods on my other disco valve it did its best at 2100psi with a 25.4gr jsb monster and .041 music wire spring.this time the valve is bone stock. i guess im going to have to play around with different pressures to get it tuned with my pellet choice which will be 16gr either predator or jsb stratton(my favorite pellet)
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In any regulated gun, adding hammer spring preload after a certain point (depending on the pressure) will just waste air and not increase the velocity.... Once you find that plateau in velocity, back off the hammer spring until you notice the velocity starting to drop.... That is the maximum that gun will shoot in it's current form (porting, pressure, pellets).... If you back the hammer spring down a little bit more, you will lose very little velocity and the shot count will go up even more.... plus the gun will get quieter....
Bob
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In any regulated gun, adding hammer spring preload after a certain point (depending on the pressure) will just waste air and not increase the velocity.... Once you find that plateau in velocity, back off the hammer spring until you notice the velocity starting to drop.... That is the maximum that gun will shoot in it's current form (porting, pressure, pellets).... If you back the hammer spring down a little bit more, you will lose very little velocity and the shot count will go up even more.... plus the gun will get quieter....
Bob
got it!
much testing is going to be done when i get it together
rsterne,
do you have the part numbers of the belleville washers and of the shims used to increase to out put pressure on the ninja regulator?
do you know if the ninja 4500psi shp regulator fits the 13ci ninja tank?
any info will be greatly appreciated.i looked on mcmaster-carr for the size belleville washer you mentioned but couldnt find it.there was some similar but dont know if they will work
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All the Ninja regs are the same dimensions, the differences are in the burst discs and springs....
The 0.032" thick Bellevilles at McMaster Carr are # 9713K66 and a 12 pack is only $6.61....
Bob
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will be placing an order when i wake up!
thanks!
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I have the SHP 1100 PSI reg in my 13ci tank. I like this reg cause you use the adjustment collar to poistion the fill valve and gauge in the orientation you need. It is a much better solution than the old shims we had to use before.
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i have a question
this is the belleville washer and shim set up for 1450psi
) () () () () ( ( | |
the first bv washer from shim is .022 and the last one in the stack is .022
does any one know what the output pressure is if i used all .032 thick bv washers instead of the .022??? a close educated guess if fine if you know the exact pressure even better but knowing each regulator is different a close guess will be fine
hope this is clear enough of an explanation to get an answer
thanks for looking
ED
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Here is my graph....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Important/NinjaRegulators.jpg)
As you can see, there is a line for using two 0.032" Bellevilles on the ends - the black line.... It adds about 200 psi with no shims, and about 500+ psi with 0.050" of shims.... compared to two 0.022" ones on the ends....
Bob
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if im reading this right i'll be around 1800psi using .032 bvw ends and the red and silver shims that come with the regulator???
so,if i use only the red thick shim and all ..32 bv washers then the regulator should be around 1600psi,right?
if i use the thin silver shim and .032 bvw then it should be around 1400psi
those shims make a huge difference.
im guessing the red shim is .020 and the silver shim is .010
this is a learning experience for me and hope im getting it.all the info is there, hope im reading it right
thanks again
ED
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The silver shims are about 0.004", the red are, indeed ~0.020".... so 1 red + 1 silver should be about 1700 psi.... Check your burst disc, if it is 1.8K do NOT go beyond ~1600 psi or you will blow the disc (and scare the he!! out of yourself)....
Bob
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The silver shims are about 0.004", the red are, indeed ~0.020".... so 1 red + 1 silver should be about 1700 psi.... Check your burst disc, if it is 1.8K do NOT go beyond ~1600 psi or you will blow the disc (and scare the he!! out of yourself)....
Bob
LMBO!
i ordered 3k burst disks just in case of that.i can imagine my reaction to the burst disk bursting.im no condition to be scaring myself.
i noticed i have 2 red shims and one silver.so the red are .020 and the silver is .004
12 bv washers stacked as shown and 1 red shim and 1 silver shim it will be @1700psi
thanks for your help it is greatly appreciated
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1700 plus or minus 100 psi.... The graph was developed using ONE particular regulator, I'm sure they vary a bit....
Bob
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1700 plus or minus 100 psi.... The graph was developed using ONE particular regulator, I'm sure they vary a bit....
Bob
got it!
took out the silver shim just in case.
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well filled my tank blew the 1.8k burst disk back to the drawing board
somewhere i think i have 12 washers in there instead of 11 like this
) () () () () ( ( |
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Is the ninja SHP the only reg that can really run above 1500psi output? I have new crossfire stealth reg off a 4500 psi 68 ci bottle that I thought maybe I could use. Obviously I would change the 1.8K burst disk to a 5K, but in looking at this thread, it seems that I would be topped out around 1100 psi maybe. I came to this conclusion as the crossfire reg uses a spring and not a washer stack as the Ninja SHP uses to load the regulator.
I wanted to make a buddy bottle for my disco as I have a 4500psi 92cu in crossfire bottle and I plan to put a 2000 psi reg on the bottle and it would be perfect range bottle to lug around when I go shoot my powder burners.
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i have seen the pure energy regulators modded like the ninja regulators in searches i did looking for the stack order of the belleville washers.
nothing popped up about crossfire
the regulators being converted in this thread are the reguler 850 regulator.i have seen the shp regulator the stack is like the )()()()()( cant remember if there was any shims
i have stack like this and it blew a 1.8k burst disk while the tank was being filled.meaning the regulator is not working properly
))()()()()((| .032 bvw .020s the regulator should be around 1600psi +/-100psi.if i have a .004 s then 1700psi +/- 100psi
if the regulator was working properly would it blew the burst disk only after the pin was pushed in?
i am making a regulator output reader from an asa valve and liquid filled gauge that reads 50psi increments.then i can experiment with using the graph as a guide
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Burst discs are not very accurate, they have about a 10% tolerance range.... so your 1.8K disc could blow at about 1600 psi.... I had one regulator that I carefully set at 1600 with an accurate gauge and about a week after installing it in a gun, and while it was just sitting on the bench, the disc blew (scared the cr_p outta me!).... I replaced the disc and have never had a problem since.... I have heard that running the tank down to very low pressure (ie well below the setpiont) will shorten the life of the burst disc from metal fatigue, and that seems reasonable.... In addition, as I told you before, that graph was for ONE specific regulator, so when you set up forf 1600, it could easily be 1700.... That plus a burst disc on the low side of the tolerance and WOOOSH!, no more disc.... That graph is for Ninja regulators only, it s NOT intended for other brands, nor do I even know if the other brands are safe at over 850 psi.... If the disc blew only after the pin valve was pushed in, the pin that pushes the valve open may be too long, or you may have assembled it incorrectly.... It shouldn't add any load to the regulator piston....
When you make up your regulator test rig, make sure you have a way to bleed of the air in the ASA valve or you won't be able to remove it.... or it will at least be difficult to unscrew to the point where the O-ring uncovers the vent hole.... When that happens, if the pressure is high, you have a good chance of blowing the O-ring.... NEVER try and remove an ASA that doesn't have a vent hole while it is under pressure....
Bob
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i hear you after you told me the first time it could be +/- 100 psi thats what i took into consideration
the burst disk blew as the gun was being filled.does that mean my regulater is stuck? what could it mean?
the regulator tester im building does bleed off
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CO2-ASA-FILL-STATION-ADAPTER-REMOTE-ON-OFF-DEGAS-WHEN-UNSCREW-AMERICAN-MADE-/271025805417?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1a659869 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CO2-ASA-FILL-STATION-ADAPTER-REMOTE-ON-OFF-DEGAS-WHEN-UNSCREW-AMERICAN-MADE-/271025805417?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1a659869)
this gauge needs adapter 1/4" npt female to 1/8" npt male adapter.if you believe this gauge wont work,please let me know and if you have any suggestions i'm listening
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Hydraulic-Liquid-Filled-Pressure-Gauge-0-3000-PSI-/261107990546?pt=Pneumatic_Hydraulic_Valves_Parts&hash=item3ccb3fc012 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Hydraulic-Liquid-Filled-Pressure-Gauge-0-3000-PSI-/261107990546?pt=Pneumatic_Hydraulic_Valves_Parts&hash=item3ccb3fc012)
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Your regulator could be stuck, or you could just have too much spring tension and the pressure is more than what the burst disc will take.... I see no reason that ASA adapter and gauge won't work, with a 1/4 - 1/8 adapter in between....
Bob
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ok took the regulator apart today inside i found the stack order to be correct and a red shim
going by the gragh that put the regulator @ 1600psi +/-100psi.
being that close to 1.8k the burst disk was sure to blow.
i removed the red shim and put it back together.im going to get a scuba tank on friday to fill the ninja tank.hopefully the parts for the regulator tester will be in soon.
if i replace the burst disk with a 3k burst disk and the tank still blow while filling does that mean there is a problem with the regulator?
what i should do is put it back to stock and fille it with a 1.8k burst disk in place. then if it blows the disk as its being filled there is a problem with the regulator
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I've made internal regs many times before. If your not familiar with the workings of the disc springs it would be helpful. You have two ways of stacking them, series and parallel. Series increases travel while parrallel increases force. I make mine as flow through regs and apply opposing force principels to get desired closing of the reg at a desired output psi. This can be a bit challenging when you don't know what the force the springs are capable of. You may have some of them parallel when it should be series or have differing thickness disc springs paralleled with each other.
That's probably not much help but a good place to start.
Bill
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its helps some
i didnt realize the stacks were parallel and series
similar hooking up speakers in a car audio system.running the speakers in parallel drops the ohms lower creating a louder volume but at the same time it stresses the amp and creates more heat.
what do you mean by flow through regs? does that mean they dump all 3k psi at once?
what is the opposing force principal you are talking about?
iirc the springs force is listed in the description these are the bv washers im using 9713K66
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/118/1229/=jo636o (http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/118/1229/=jo636o)
i have them stacked like rsternes graph shows
))()()()()(( i take it thats p s s s s p ?
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That all looks correct. The question I would have is, are all of the disc springs the same gauge? If they aren't, perhaps you got a mis-match in one or both of the parallel sets. Just a point to investigate. Also inspect the inside of the valve body to see if there are any marks that look like ribs. If the tolerances are a bit loose, this can allow the disc springs to shift incorrectly during a cycle, eventually wearing the inner valve body. This can ultimatley lead to a sticking reg as Bob suggested. This is particularly true with the pass through design I make.
The pass through design is one that allows air to pass through the piston that controls the action. The piston has a small hole through its axis. the piston is .5" at low psi end and .250' at the hi psi side. There are orings at both ends. The disc springs rest between the orings, around the .250" piston shaft behind the .500" piston head. There is a valve seat at the small end of the piston usually mounted in an adjustable fixture to allow tuning the reg within designed psi ranges. The disc springs hold the piston stem off of the valve seat thus allowing air to pass through the piston. Once the air begins to equalize at the low pressure side, the disc springs are overcome and allow the piston to move toward the hi pressure side. This allows the small end of the piston to contact the valve seat thus stopping flow. The regulated psi is the difference between incoming psi minus spring rate at set deflection. Very simple design but ussually requires a vent to atmosphere to operate reliably for long periods of time. I'm really surprised that more people don't make them. The Marauder kind of defeats itself with regaurd to regulating. The design puts the gauge block in the way of the valve causing a reduced plenum. That is why you have to mod the gauge block and valve so much to reg the .22. The .25 is really a waste of time to reg but the .177, I'd say it is a perfect candidate for a reg. Ive been toying around with a way to keep a gauge for hi pressure reading while still having a reg, which isn't possible with my reg. Originally, I was trying to come up with one that didn't need to vent but reliability was a Big issue. This evolved into a design that keeps the gauge for reservoir psi but requires no drilling of the reservoir tube. The reg really simplifies tuning and efficiency and would be awesome for the marauder of all three calibers if the reservoir where larger and the gauge was relocated. I'm thinking on that one as well and have a good idea but need to refine it a bit.
Bill
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the bv washers should all be the same size unless they mixed them up at warehouse or where ever they come from.i did line them all up on the table to see if one was higher than the other and if one was lower.my unscientific measuring leads me to believe they are the same size.
i put the washers on the piston dry.should have i used some silicone grease when installing them?on the piston? or the washers?
when i did look inside i had this stack order with 1 red shim... ))()()()()((|shim(red).rsterne measured a red shim he has and it came back as .020
according to rsternes graph,that put me at 1600psi which could easily be 1700psi or 1500psi with a 1.8k burst disk
heres where i am confused
being this close to 1.8k could that be the reason the burst disk blew while filling? what makes a disk burst while filling?
he mentioned he had a disk blow while the tank was at rest.what does that mean? i get that the disks are not accurate and can become fatigued
Burst discs are not very accurate, they have about a 10% tolerance range.... so your 1.8K disc could blow at about 1600 psi.... I had one regulator that I carefully set at 1600 with an accurate gauge and about a week after installing it in a gun, and while it was just sitting on the bench, the disc blew (scared the cr_p outta me!).... I replaced the disc and have never had a problem since.... I have heard that running the tank down to very low pressure (ie well below the setpiont) will shorten the life of the burst disc from metal fatigue, and that seems reasonable.... In addition, as I told you before, that graph was for ONE specific regulator, so when you set up forf 1600, it could easily be 1700.... That plus a burst disc on the low side of the tolerance and WOOOSH!, no more disc.... That graph is for Ninja regulators only, it s NOT intended for other brands, nor do I even know if the other brands are safe at over 850 psi.... If the disc blew only after the pin valve was pushed in, the pin that pushes the valve open may be too long, or you may have assembled it incorrectly.... It shouldn't add any load to the regulator piston....
When you make up your regulator test rig, make sure you have a way to bleed of the air in the ASA valve or you won't be able to remove it.... or it will at least be difficult to unscrew to the point where the O-ring uncovers the vent hole.... When that happens, if the pressure is high, you have a good chance of blowing the O-ring.... NEVER try and remove an ASA that doesn't have a vent hole while it is under pressure....
Bob
the post saying the spring pressure could be too much for the disk to handle
Your regulator could be stuck, or you could just have too much spring tension and the pressure is more than what the burst disc will take.... I see no reason that ASA adapter and gauge won't work, with a 1/4 - 1/8 adapter in between....
Bob
if i had a 5k burst disk in there would have it bursted? or a 3k for educations sake being the regulator is set to 1500-1700psi
i could understand that if the 1.8k burst disk blew with it being set at 850psi that would indicate a problem with the regulator.
after re-reading mr.sterne's posts, i am under the impression that the 1.8k disk would blow while filling because the output pressure of the regulator was close to the disks pressure rating or higher
if i put a disk with a higher pressure reading in the output part of the tank it may not blow during filling because it is capable of handling that pressure.
now if i put a 3k output disk in and it blows that may indicate either a faulty regulator or its close to the 3k pressure rating.i have read the 3k burst disks can blow at 2100psi
if i put a 5k output burst disk in and it blows thats another story because the input disk is 5k with a 3000psi fill neither should blow unless defective
tell me if im understanding this correctly or not.if not then where am i confused at?
thanks for the time you are all taking to help me understand this better.i know i have a lot more to learn and this is a start
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There is no reason to use more than a 3K burst disc on the output side.... They should not blow below 2700 psi, just like a 1.8K should not blow below about 1600 psi.... If you use a 3K disc you can have the full 3000 psi in the tank end up in the gun if the regulator bypasses (leaks internally).... If your gun is not built to withstand 3000 psi I would recommend you stay with the 1.8K burst disc and find out why it is blowing.... Try the BV stack you have with NO shims and see what happens.... Once you have your tester built you can be sure the reg isn't bypassing and what the output pressure actually is....
Bob
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There is no reason to use more than a 3K burst disc on the output side.... They should not blow below 2700 psi, just like a 1.8K should not blow below about 1600 psi.... If you use a 3K disc you can have the full 3000 psi in the tank end up in the gun if the regulator bypasses (leaks internally).... If your gun is not built to withstand 3000 psi I would recommend you stay with the 1.8K burst disc and find out why it is blowing.... Try the BV stack you have with NO shims and see what happens.... Once you have your tester built you can be sure the reg isn't bypassing and what the output pressure actually is....
Bob
thos numbers i threw out up there was for my understanding.really need to know if im on the right page.lets leave safety to the side because thats a given
what i need for someone who knows to confirm im on the right page and i am not confusing what im reading.my main issue is why does the burst disk pop upon filling and if im reading this correctly,its because the output pressure of the regulator is to close or over the 1.8k pressure rating of the burst disk
i like to learn for the most part dont have any trouble learning just need to hear from someone with experience im on the right page
the 1.8k burst disk will blow on filling if the output pressure is close to the 1.8k rating using 1700psi as an example
if the regulator is set at 1750psi the burst disk will blow upon filling, correct?
if the regulator is a faulty it can blow the regulator upon filling?
im guessing this will let all the air out of the tank
from what i saw at the paintball shop it vents all the air out when the disk pops
with the output pressure of the tank set at a safe presrure of lets say 1500psi then the 1.8k burst disk will not pop upon filling the tank,correct?
my first test was going to be the be washers stacked without the shims and i read somewhere the ninja stack order is ()()()()() iirc 10 washers in series.
bottom line is if i am well under the safety rating of the burst disk ,the disk will not pop while the tank is being filled
if it does pop then im either to close or over the pressure rating or there is an issue with the regulator
i hope i sound clear this is pretty much how i can explain it.if my presumptions are incorrect please correct them
thanks again
ED
i ask a lot of questions because its the best way for me to come to the understanding of what im asking
thanks for your patience
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if it does pop then im either to close or over the pressure rating or there is an issue with the regulator
Absolutely correct.... The stock Ninja stack is 10 BV washers 0.032" thick in series, ) () () () () ( .... To that they add a single 0.022" BV in parallel to the end ones, on one or both ends.... For their very high pressure setups, they use a 0.032" BV in parallel with the end ones, to end up )) () () () () (( with a total of 12 BV washers of 0.032" thick.... That should give you about 1300 psi plus or minus 100 psi with NO shims....
Bob
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thanks! now i can rest easy knowing im getting to understand the regulator a little better. i still have a long way to go before i can build them like you or jds.from what i have been reading around the paintball forums his regulators are fairly precise and stable.
your regulator work is also floating around the paintball scene if you didnt know that already.
glad i can get help like yours and bill's.let the journey continue
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your regulator work is also floating around the paintball scene if you didnt know that already.
I had no idea.... I hope they know what they are doing and take proper precautions when working with HPA....
Bob
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oh yeah, there are some other regulator modders like jds airman and expert hpa they talk about also
they showed some of your belleville washer stacking from CAF
i googled ninja regulator belleville washer stack order
there are quite a few people modding pure energy regulators,also.the stack order is almost the same
one forum they dissected the jds regulators fom verious output pressures and measured the bv washers and shims,then posted the order
the one thing they kept mentioning was safety