GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => Turkish AirGun Gate => Topic started by: WHITEFANG on September 11, 2012, 03:52:18 PM
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Any one had one of these apart lately? Also can anyone compare it to a Hatsan 135? I know they are differenent in many ways already but the same in some ways. Fixing to pull the trigger on one in .25
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I have the Webley Patriot .25, the stock is beautiful but slightly shorter, and lighter than the 135 Hat .177. Easier to cock than my 135 Hat. The grip portion of the stock is smaller and more sleek, also stock is slightly more narrow. Has more of a gloss finish too. I'm sorry I cannot speak fps, or internals. Dime size groups at 50 ft. same hole at 30 ft.deadly to large gray squirrels with one shot, my benjamin trail often took two shots (BIG GRAY Squirrels). Preditor poly pellets are best but not terribly picky. It is slightly louder than my benjamin trail np xl .22. No checkering on stock makes it slightly slippery if wet. My favorite gun and all others sit more. Hope this helps.
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I have both a Hatsan 135 and a Turkish Patriot in .25 cal. Do have some pics of when I removed the stock off my patriot and Mod 135. Soon as I register for a photo hosting account I will add the pics. I only removed the stocks, I haven't torn down into the actions as I am not too familiar with the Turkish gun internals.
First a few differences...
Receiver tube on Patriot is longer than 135 by a few mm, but when you compare the stroke, its obvious the 135 stroke is actually onger. Lined up the trigger group with stocks removed on both and 135 has a longer stroke. This concurs with the 114mm stroke listed for the patriot i see on some websites vs the 120mm for the mod 135.
My chrony test backs up my observation of the greater stroke of the 135, the 135 has a little more power than the Patriot, but it was marginal enough that it may vary from gun to gun. 19.91 gr H&N FTT 5 shot avg was 775 fps range and my 135 shot same pellet at avg of 805 fps. I also chronied 27.8gr benji domes, patriot was shooting them at 685 fps avg (29 ft lbs) but I dont recall the numbers off top of my head for the 135.
OD of both receivers was similar, thus I am fairly confident both use the same diameter piston seal, but then again, I can not confirm until both are disassembled. Breech block seems different for the two. I don't think you can swap barrels off a patriot to a Mod 135. The location of the pivot bolt seems different when you put both actions next to each other. One big surprise I had and I'm not sure if its a defect or not, but my patriot didn't have the anti bear trap linkage! I'm not sure if this was intentional or not.
A similarity is that the 135 and Patriot use the same quattro trigger block. The trigger group is retained with two pins to the receiver vs one pin on the Mod 125/ WFH/ talon
What I'm curious about of course is if the spring and piston are the same between the two.
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.Thanks for the replies. I assuming that the piston in the Patriot will be shorter due to the stroke difference. Sadly when I looked at the chart I have on airguns and got a line up on the Patriot thinking it had the same stroke which I realized after ordering the Patriot. The 135 has more swipe volume and should produce more power than the patriot.
One thing on the patriot is it has the same stroke as the RWS 350 WHICH INDICATEDS THAT A SPRING KIT FOR THE 350 MAY FIT THE PATRIOT. So there is maybe a chance that a 2g Vortek kit will fit. My 135.22 has the XL ram in it and it is a beast but smooth shooting and great grouper at 20 yards. So long story but I was hoping the Patriot with the .25 would be a powerhouse but after finding the stroke difference I think not.Do you see any difference IN quality between the guns? Does the Patriot live up to being $100.00 more than the 135 since Hatsan makes both of them.
When you removed the stocks did the Patriot remove just like the 135 does , that is is the front stock set up right hand thread as the 135?
I may have not accomplished what I set out to do with the patriot and might should have bought another 135.
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One thing on the patriot is it has the same stroke as the RWS 350 WHICH INDICATEDS THAT A SPRING KIT FOR THE 350 MAY FIT THE PATRIOT.
So there is maybe a chance that a 2g Vortek kit will fit.
You might try contacting VORTEK about a spring as they've been developing a 2G kit for the Webley/Hatsan Patriot for a while.
A complete kit is not available, however, an individual spring might be.
- HATSAN Patriot ... HPatroit Tunekit in development coming soon ... 30-32+FPE (http://vortekproducts.com/ourstore/Available-Tuning-Kits)
If the moderated H135 XRD (http://www.goldguns.ru/published/publicdata/GOLDGU29GOLD/attachments/SC/products_pictures/x_56305eae_enl.jpg) version were available you choice would have been even harder - I think.
Either way, Webley/Hatsan is sure missing the boat by not offering a moderated version of the Patriot.
I may have not accomplished what I set out to do with the patriot and might should have bought another 135.
At the very least with the Webley/Hatsan Patriot ... you'll have the better looking rifle ... pride of ownership goes a long way in my book.
When VORTEK comes-out with the HPatroit Tunekit I'll be taking a second look the at the W/H Patriot.
That is, if I can't obtain a .25 caliber German springer.
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I personally think the Patriot is a better looking rifle than the 135. The 135 even with a nice muzzle brake instead of the tiny front sight is still not as sharp a looker as my patriot. The cut of the fore end of the stock that shows the breech block looks pretty dang sharp to me.
As for fit and finish, the overall package of the Turkish Patriot is a grade above the 135 in terms of overall fit and finish IMO. Hard to explain but when you get your Patriot, I think you'll see what I mean. And as for the minor stroke difference, the patriot is still putting out over 27 ft lbs, I'm a happy camper with mine. I like shooting it more than my Mod 135.
If you go to remove the stock, see if you can hit the retaining nut with some penetrating oil first. Took a lot more effort to remove the retaining nut on my patty vs other Hatsans i have had.
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i don't have a 135 to compare it to but my 25 caliber patriot is a nice shooter. it is not up to the standards of the english webleys but is a nice gun nonetheless. it settled down to about 30-31 fpe after a few hundred shots. very accurate for a springer of it's magnitude. it will stack silver bears into almost the same hole from 25 yards. i just got some h&n field target and jsb kings to try in it, but it's not necessary given the current accuracy with the bears. i think the sas system makes the gun sound twangy through the stock to the shooter. i haven't tuned it, but plan to when i reach 1k shots. overall i think it's a good buy, but wish the sights and trigger guard were made of at least pot metal for the 300+ that it costs. the stock is very nice walnut though, as most of the turkish guns are.i don't think you would be disappointed with it, as long as you aren't expecting old webley quality.
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You guys should post some pics of your Patriots for my enjoyment ;D
I've always loved those rifles and I regret not picking one up years ago.
I had the pleasure of shooting an English one a few months ago when I got together with another GTA member. It was fun slinging that .25 lead into a nice little group. Nice rifle, it was a tuned springer with a nice trigger job and it felt great!
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(http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo151/GreasyDave/WebleyPatriot25caliber003-1.jpg)
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Nice!!
What a beauuuuutiful rifle!! Very classy and nice job on the pic ;)
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watching this one
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my NPXL 1100 got stolen...thinking about a patriot or hatsan 135 as a replacement...how do they compare to the XL as far as power, hold sensitivity, accuracy etc.? .22 or .25
thanks
Josh
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i have taken both the turk/web patties apart and the hatsan 125's. i thought they would be simlialr, wolf, but i was wrong. the new version patriot is the biggest, baddest springer i have even shot or worked on. 49 coils of very thick wire if i recall correctly.......it is a beast. and heavier than the hatsans. - paul d self of rane air.
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Great to here the chadder. Thanks ranedouglas. I got 1 and it was damaged in shipping so its headed back. Glad to know your thoughts.
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i have taken both the turk/web patties apart and the hatsan 125's. i thought they would be simlialr, wolf, but i was wrong. the new version patriot is the biggest, baddest springer i have even shot or worked on. 49 coils of very thick wire if i recall correctly.......it is a beast. and heavier than the hatsans. - paul d self of rane air.
how about the 135?
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Whitefang has a few 135's, i hear they are big big big,,,,, so if your a little weak dude dont buy a 135 ....... ha
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135's are a big frame gun and perform great. They are beasty. They can be tuned and tamed.
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Wish they would have brought the 135 XRD as well when they brought the 125 Sniper though. That's the mod 135 i really wanted, kinda why I ended up putting the leftover brake i had on this 135.
But a 135 out of the box is not too bad a shooter. With all the weight of the receiver and stock, mines not too bad a shooter with less than a tin through it thus far.
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(http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo151/GreasyDave/WebleyPatriot25caliber003-1.jpg)
That is a good-looking rifle ... lovely proportions - aom22
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(http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo151/GreasyDave/WebleyPatriot25caliber003-1.jpg)
That is a good-looking rifle ... lovely proportions - aom22
Indeed!
I forgot to ask, what scope is that beast wearing?
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Appears to be a HAWKE 4-12X50 MAYBE???
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Looks pretty darned good on it too!
Nice match with the rifle.
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That was a pic I just copied off the net. Looked nice so I grabed it.
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That was a pic I just copied off the net. Looked nice so I grabed it.
Found the source of the photo ... UK Patriot.
FS: English Webley patriot .25 cal. GRAPHIC (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79574/message/1333866122/FS-++English+Webley+patriot+-25+cal-++GRAPHIC)
Hmmmm, wondering if a W/H Patriot with the right barrel treatment and walnut stock - could look ... even ... better?.
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Here is 1 of my 135's. Yes that is a 12" barrel with the RWS 350 pro comapc muzzle brake on it. The brake has been moderated. That is a Hawke 4-12x50 scope.
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That's gotta be very hard to cock isn't it? Is that the one with the ram in it?
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Here is 1 of my 135's. Yes that is a 12" barrel with the RWS 350 pro comapc muzzle brake on it. The brake has been moderated. That is a Hawke 4-12x50 scope.
Wow! What a little powerhouse!
What's the total length of that rifle?
That's gotta be very hard to cock isn't it? Is that the one with the ram in it?
I'm assuming no more than 60lbs.
You get what you pay for ;D
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Yes just a tad HEAVY on the cocking but not that bad. KjUST A LITTLE harder than the 350 2g pro compac barreled guns. Yes it is gas ramed. You would be surprised, it is not that bad and the brake does make a difference in the shooting and FPS. That is the 125TH .25 barrel that was bent. Chopped at 12" over all length. The .22 barrel that really goes on that bare is the same chopped length but the muzzle brake has to be about 2 " farther up the barrel for shooting and FPS.
Here it is beside the RWS 350 .25 CHOPPED BARREL THE FACTORY LENGTH OF THE PRO COMPAC VS THE 135 .25 NOW.
With the .22 135 barrel on it and the muzzle set it is the same length as the RWS 350.
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I really like what you did with those recoil pads, adds extra protection for the butt end of the stocks. Really nice!
So what is the overall length of the shortest rifle you have there?
Reason I ask is that I'm addicted to carbines ;D
They are worth every bit of extra muscle required to cock. It beats waving a broomstick around when hunting.
BTW, that shorty 135 you have looks like a cross between a Theoben Fenman and an Evolution - I think you're on to something there ;)
Great looking trio you have there!
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THANKS!!
Not sure. I will have to check when I get home. Here are a few more of the PAC.
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That's not nice of you to make me drool over those while I'm trying to get some work done! ;D
Those look like they don't play nice!
I love high powered rifles ;)
You need an R7 in there to soften the room ;D ;D ;D
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I really like what you did with those recoil pads, adds extra protection for the butt end of the stocks. Really nice!
I think he may have shortened the butt on that 135, also. I got a Hastan 125TH because it's Pull Length is 1.4" shorter than the other 125's and many of the Hatsan rifles have a long Pull Length that interferes with Eye Relief, when using a scope.
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All the RWS stocks have been shortened and butt pads installed , And yes the the Hatsan 135 was done as well. I always had to shorten all my shotguns to get the correct fit for me. Believe it or not but the soft butt pads help me shooting all these guns. They really take the recoil out of the guns plus fit the shoulder much better. All the Hatsans I have need this done to them to get a better eye to scope fit. Offset mounts work but I really don,t like them that much. Most of the time on the offsets I have to grind between the rings for the scopes not to bind on the bottom. Most of the scopes I have are 30mm so that could be some of the interference.
FANG
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so does anybody have both a Patriot and a 135 in .22 or .25? A side by side comparison as far as power, accuracy, hold sensitivity, etc. would be awesome....both of these are on my short list to replace my benji NPXL
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Hand fitting is much better stock wise on the patriot. Thinner over all. The 135 has a robust wide stock. Power wise they are close. 135 has the same piston bore of 30mm. difference is the 135 has a 120mm stroke vs the patriot has a 114mm stroke. So the patriot would have a lighter piston weight than the 135. 135 stock has a nice forarm checkering and on the grip area vs the patriot only has checkering on the grip area. Both have very nice wood.
135 advertised weight is 9.2 lbs vs the patriot at 9.0 lbs. Advertise lenth of the 135 is overall 47.2 vs the patriot at 49.0. Brrel lengths are 17.7 on the 135 and 17.5 on the patriot. 135 has a full length stock that extend to the end of the barrel breach vs the Patriot stopping at the end of the receiver. Your patriot .25 is avetised at 820 FPS VS THE 135 .25 is advertised at 750 FPS. 135 HAS THE Weaver & 11mm dovetails SCOPE MOUNTS VS THE PATRIOTS 11mm dovetail.
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The Hatsan 155 torpedo suppose to be pretty powerful but at 11 lbs. that's to heavy some one on this thread say it's a 130 stroke.Watched a video on youtube that it shot thru a soft 2x4 didn't show the shot showed after, 22 cal.
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thanks whitefang...I was kinda hoping for somebody that has actually shot both...advertised power and real life power are sometimes totally different...lol...also accuracy, hold sensitivity etc... I'm not so worried about finish as function...It's goind to be a hunter and get scratched up anyways
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Nice work there, Fang.
Thanks for posting all this information ;)
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THANKS!!
Mpac, for some reason I thought the 155 had the same power plant as the 135, bore and stroke.
As far as hold and shooting the 135 IS MUCH MORE OF A BEAST VS THE PATRIOT. Patriot was great shooting. Trigger on the patriot was stiff and heaver pulling but they both have the same trigger. I did like the safety set up better on the patriot.
I really could not do a true comparison between the 2. The trigger has been polished and the 135 has the ram. So that gun is sweet. Plus they were real close on the FPS or the same but the patriot seamed to have a bad piston seal by the chrony numbers being up to par to way below par. Numbers were not consistant on the patriot. Numbers on the 135 are within 5-10 FPS AT THE MOST. Don't get me wrong as always there will be a much lower number due to the pellet sizing ever once and a while with any gun.
The Patriot was nice but you have to ask yourself is it really worth a $100.00 more. I went back to the 135 .25. I may have made a mistake in doing it. But I am use to the heavy beasty 135. Trust me both guns are good and both guns are not for ever one. They both are magnum true guns.
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You don't have a Patriot anymore, Fang?
Why'd you get rid of it?
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I just backed out the 2nd screw 1 full turn out on my trigger and it breaks good factory set was to hard and hurt my finger.Haven't shot a Patriot so I wouldn't know the difference ,my 135 isn't bad at all when shot.The 155 showed converted over to gas ram was a 130mm stroke.
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Thanks fang and Mpac...so basically what I'm getting is that both preform about the same but the patriot is $100 more worth of pretty. Is that about right? heck I might just go pcp this time around...oh well...I have plenty of time
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Yes I saw that to. I did not mess with the trigger settings on it. I have sweet triggers on all the Hatsans. I thought that article used the same ram for the 125 135 as well. But looking at the drawing Yu can see some counter sinking work might explain the 130mm.
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Here is 1 of my 135's. Yes that is a 12" barrel with the RWS 350 pro comapc muzzle brake on it.
The brake has been moderated.
WHITEFANG, do you think a Diana 350 Pro Comp muzzle brake (http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/rws.html#350ProCompact) would fit a Webley/Hatsan Patriot?
Or, do you think a Hatsan 125 Sniper moderator could be fitted to a Webley/Hatsan Patriot?
It would be extremely interesting to know whether an H135 XRD moderator (http://www.hatsan.com.tr/airguns_mod_135.asp) could be fitted to a WH Patriot (http://www.webleyandscott.com/shop/proddetail-airguns.php?prod=WRPAT25FAC).
If only the H135 XRD were currently available in America.
It is a travesty that spare parts for Hatsan airguns are not available in the USA.
And, to a certain extent this shortcoming limits the ability of tuners and customizers to ply their trade or experiment
to bring the best out of Hatsan airguns.
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well Gee thanks Mpac...had to go throwing the 155 torpedo into the mix lol....very nice looking rifle....well what say yall about the 155?
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Here is 1 of my 135's. Yes that is a 12" barrel with the RWS 350 pro comapc muzzle brake on it.
The brake has been moderated.
WHITEFANG, do you think a Diana 350 Pro Comp muzzle brake (http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/rws.html#350ProCompact) would fit a Webley/Hatsan Patriot?
Or, do you think a Hatsan 125 Sniper moderator could be fitted to a Webley/Hatsan Patriot?
It would be extremely interesting to know whether an H135 XRD moderator (http://www.hatsan.com.tr/airguns_mod_135.asp) could be fitted to a WH Patriot (http://www.webleyandscott.com/shop/proddetail-airguns.php?prod=WRPAT25FAC).
If only the H135 XRD were currently available in America.
It is a travesty that spare parts for Hatsan airguns are not available in the USA.
And, to a certain extent this shortcoming limits the ability of tuners and customizers to ply their trade or experiment
to bring the best out of Hatsan airguns.
Yes it will fit. As for chopping a barrel contact FLYING DRAGON and he can do this for you. Raine air as well. Many out there. Hatsan parts for the 125 can be bought from Umerex usa. They are mostley the same as the WFH and THE WFT. Barrels will interchange for the most from the 125 to the 135.
Sniper could be made to fit as well but would take much effort. I would construct one of my own before making the sniper fit.
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As for chopping a barrel contact FLYING DRAGON and he can do this for you.
Raine air as well.
Many out there.
Any airgunsmith choking Hatsan barrels?
WHITEFANG ... thanks for your response and information.
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Any time. Got some materal laid out for some new brakes.
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mike melick can cut and choke barrels like the fang stated before, just call him.
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As for chopping a barrel contact FLYING DRAGON and he can do this for you.
Raine air as well.
Many out there.
mike melick can cut and choke barrels like the fang stated before, just call him.
Sorry, but I didn't quite catch the choke barrels part from what WHITEFANG said.
Either way, I guess an email to Mike Melick might be in-order.