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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => Turkish AirGun Gate => Topic started by: gene_sc on August 02, 2012, 07:50:16 AM
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Does anyone have any information on what gas spring from N-FORCER or Moeller has been tested in the Hatsan 125's?
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Don't quite know how to answer this....but there was once someone here that was testing those units in the 125,but there were some technical issues.
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I believe the N-Forcer MF19-125 is the model used in the 125 every time I've seen it used.
I believe the N-forcer yellow is considered by most to have a little too much force at 260 Lbs. Most of this is from memory, but I think a Force around 220-240lbs was considered the max before cocking effort and durability issues arise.
The N-Forcer Red seems to have about the same force as the Crosman gas pistons that are being installed in the 125's from Pyramyd.
http://www.n-forcer.com/content/pdf/Mini.pdf (http://www.n-forcer.com/content/pdf/Mini.pdf)
The Moeller M90-TBM Yellow or Red might be a good compromise. You can also order their gas springs charged to the desired force.
http://www.moellerpunch.com/PDF/Moeller%20Nitrogen%20Gas%20Cylinders.pdf (http://www.moellerpunch.com/PDF/Moeller%20Nitrogen%20Gas%20Cylinders.pdf)
I have yet to actually try any of them myself, but once time allows I plan on some experimenting eventually.
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If a setup can be found that equals or surpasses the factory spring power,that would be a great modification. I don't think the Crosman unit is there yet.
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tarheal and mikey have all the info. but i guiess they got the boot.
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tarheal and mikey have all the info. but i guiess they got the boot.
These conversions have been done for years.
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These conversions have been done for years.
Paul,
What are the links to the websites showing the conversions to Moeller and N-Forcer gas rams?
I have tried Googling, but all of the links lead back to GTA and the information that Mike 4888blues and Tarheel posted here on the forum.
Can you please supply links to the sources of information you mentioned ?
Thanks !
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Interesting..
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I have been in touch recently with both of those guys via e-mail.
They have continued with their testing and experimentation, in spite of being removed from GTA.
Their performance numbers are far surpassing the factory numbers and even the numbers that Gene posted when he tested JOAO's gas ram conversion kit. Chrony test results showed 33.2 to 34.8 fpe, depending on caliber, and that is very impressive !
I believe they are going to manufacture and either perform conversions or sell conversion kits in the near future.
I have tried to find out which gas ram units they are using, but haven't been told anything.
Frankly, I think it's because I mentioned that I am a GTA member in my first e-mail to them.
Does anyone else have any more information ?
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Those guys were up on the rams and had good info. Seems that they stired the pot on the rams and hadothers followed suit.
Personally I have played with the conversions that WERE SOLD IN THESE GUNS. 1 WAS PUT IN A 125 TH. 25. THE CONVERSIONS RAMS DO SMOOTH OUT THE GUNS BUT ARE LOW ON THE FPS. 750 FPS IN A25. 890-900 IN. 22. TRIED THE 135. 22 AND THE SAME FPS AS THE SAME 125.
I DO NOT RECOMMEND ANYONE THAT DOES NOT HAVE EXPERIENCE IN THESE GUNS ATTEMPT THIS.
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Well, Gene simply asked which rams were used and hopefully I got em right, but since once again it seems there is some misconception that this is some pioneering or innovative work that could only be found through former members, I'll throw out two links to conversions that have been around far longer than either Mike or Tarheel's efforts. There are more, but the point should be clear.
http://www.airgunforum.ca/forums/topic23031.html (http://www.airgunforum.ca/forums/topic23031.html)
http://www.airguns.com.ar/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3468 (http://www.airguns.com.ar/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3468)
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That picture of using the lathe as a spring compressor was great! I think I have one of those.
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Paul:
I don't think there were any harm in THE mentioning of the past members personally. JMO.
RAMS HAVE BEEN OUT FOR A LONG TIME. POWER AND FPS HAS BEEN THE ULTIMATE GOAL FOR MANY.
LOOK AT THE MAKERS OF SPRING KITS. LOOK AT ALL THE TRIGGER ASSEMBLES OFFERED.
ANYBODY THAT HAS THIS AS hobby no different than the POWDER BURNERS. MORE IS BETTER!
THE MAIN THING IN ANY GUN, CAUTION MUST BE USED IN MAKING MODS. THESE AIR RIFLES @ 900-1000FPS ARE NO TOY!!!
ANYONE THAT Takes on any mod is accepting the liability.
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Well, Gene simply asked which rams were used and hopefully I got em right, but since once again it seems there is some misconception that this is some pioneering or innovative work that could only be found through former members, I'll throw out two links to conversions that have been around far longer than either Mike or Tarheel's efforts. There are more, but the point should be clear.
http://www.airgunforum.ca/forums/topic23031.html (http://www.airgunforum.ca/forums/topic23031.html)
http://www.airguns.com.ar/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3468 (http://www.airguns.com.ar/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3468)
According to that Canadian thread they were only generating 21.5 fpe in a Hatsan 125. Pretty wimpy, if you ask me. Mike and Tarheel are getting 55 - 60% more power than that. Sure, the Canadian thread pre-dates them, but their results far eclipse those in the thread.
Now, the Argentinian thread is interesting as it pegs the Air Venturi gas ram's pressure at 157 bar, a useful reference. They don't mention velocity, but they were talking about using both Air Venturi and Brazilian gas rams ( likely the ones from JOAO's kits ). All of their gas rams are lower pressure - Certainly lower than 180 bar.
Since GTA is English only . . . I used a translator program to translate the whole thread from the Argentinian thread, so all can read it . . .
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Esteban Notapor »Mon June 13, 2011 11:04 a.m.
As you see the gas ram it comes with the coupling-guide (makes Hugo) seen in the picture in white.
The rear coupling has a cavity that allows the housing of the rear cap of the rifle and also serves to center the gas ram. Image
You need a decompressor spring to do the job.
Image
This photo shows clearly the difference between the gas precompression ram (about 3-4 mm) and the original spring (about 6 cm), given the difference in length between the two. As a final note, I commented that this does not trigger Hatsan 125 Quattro, too, this gas ram with these couplings used on any 125.
Furthermore, this ram is the same gas that can be installed on other models Hatsan large (135, 150 and 155) and models like the Stoeger X50, Bam 22, Gamo 1250, the only thing that changes is the feedback.
Greetings.
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Notapor cease pcp »Mon June 13, 2011 7:53 pm
As the day THE DREAM OF MAN held by Hughie
Hacete some groups with those rats or a mammoth.
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Notapor surfista3046 »Wed June 15, 2011 10:16 pm
High post!! well my respects there and some who have forgotten who threw mahely always, never expect anything. User avatar
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Notapor Kurupi »Sat June 18, 2011 9:08 pm
Very good laburo. :)
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surfista3046 wrote some who have forgotten who threw mahely always, never expect anything. More line.
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Notapor edgardmack »Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:40 a.m.
Anyone have the data to buy the gas spring ram?
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surfista3046 wrote: High post!! well my respects there and some who have forgotten who threw mahely always, never expect anything. lucasp
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surfista3046 wrote: High post!! well my respects there and some who have forgotten who threw mahely always, never expect anything. Esteban Notapor »Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:20 pm
The gas ram rifles for "big" as the H125 and H 135, among others, are loaded with 85 kg (some Hugo made them pay 80 and 75 kg/cm2), but most of which were installed are 85 kg. and going well.
The gas ram sold in Brazil for 125 or 135 Hatsan come in two sizes, 70 and 75 kg, except for the Magtech that are 88 kg (large), but for what I have understood, the next the will reduce to 80 kg.
I do not know what the load pressure of the Air Venturi, but I think that 157 kg/cm2 is an exaggeration. Perhaps that is the maximum pressure that lifts the gas ram rifle mounted. The 85 kg. gas from the ram are made here, are more or less at these pressures, but with the rifle is loaded.
The Crosman Nitro Piston also come with pressures of about 75-80 kg. (Large)
Greetings.
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Re:Notapor Pajaroloco »Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:58 a.m.
Thanks for such a prompt response, according to the Brazilian forum, the relationship is this:
to a 51.2 kg spring is necessary to take pressure 100bar
for a spring NEED TO 40.0 kg is 78 bar pressure have
for a spring of 60.0 kg and 117 bar ter NEED TO pressão
to a 80.0 kg spring 156 is necessary to have bar pressure,
for a spring 85, spring kg would be 166 bar pressure.
With so in my case and I spend a few bars, because one is 180 by the other 175-b, I have to go to 140-b., I see, is that if low spring pressure, shooting will be much more stable and as the power of the camera 125 is Hatsan of 79.3 cm3 and the 135 is 84.8 cm 3 and have enough spring air with a not so strong. http://i51.tinypic.com/2ds0a6f.jpg (http://i51.tinypic.com/2ds0a6f.jpg)
I pass this link you can see the dimensions of the compression chambers of various rifles.
a greeting
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edgardmack wrote: anyone have information on where to buy the gas spring ram?
www.airgunslp.com.ar (http://www.airgunslp.com.ar)
Communicate with Hugo Jordan on page you have the phone.
Greetings.
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Re:Notapor Pajaroloco »Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:53 pm
Hi all, I presented a little higher, my question to Stephen, is if I can pass information from gas ram, measures of the same forums looking more or less I have a slight idea, but the pressure to which they are charged , bars or kg which is, that I no longer know, as here in Spain, there is, and I am looking for gas springs for testing in my Hatsan 135 sas-4, and so far I have not found an acceptable . I sent an email to Hugh Jordan, who told me that the pressure was 80 bars, but they sold the Pyramyd Air (now or will you carry the rifle and I'll ride them or not you sell it loose) for Gamo, the Air Venturi Gas Spring Conversion, is loaded at 157 bars, be if we all give me some light.
thanks
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END QUOTE:
Those two threads were interesting, but somewhat outdated. I hope there are more current threads, but as I posted before, the most recent point back to GTA.
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NVMND. :-X
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Great info! I willhave to follow up on this. The conversions offer as i said tame the guns down but are not obtaining the power that a jacked up spring KIT. Nothing is offered to exceed the springs. Everything offered is what i call just in the selling not atempting to push the maximum or close to what the guns can handle without over doing it
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That picture of using the lathe as a spring compressor was great! I think I have one of those.
Yup. I've been trying to make piston seal adapters with limited success for the last week, and pretty much have reached the conclusion that it's time for me to find a lathe as well. Just too much I could do with one now not to get one..
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Yes Hatsan is limited for the end user and home tuner in parts. Almost not worth the money when there are plenty of other guns other that offer power and parts just like an RWS, UNLIMITED POWER SORCES AND A GREAT GUN WITH MANY CAPABILITYS.
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Great info! I willhave to follow up on this. The conversions offer as i said tame the guns down but are not obtaining the power that a jacked up spring KIT. Nothing is offered to exceed the springs. Everything offered is what i call just in the selling not atempting to push the maximum or close to what the guns can handle without over doing it
If Gene is looking to do some work in this area, I'll simply prefer to wait for his results should he ever make them known since he has the experience and knowledge to lend credence to his results. I can go into my garage and make any one of my magnums push 30+ FPE easy. That's not the hard part.
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Well he has the connection and ability.
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There are others out there with info but are holding back in fear of disclosure
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think mike blues has tested the moller red and yellow and last I knew he was ordering a few custom fills to see what he likes best. might have to emial him and see what he has decided on.
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Rams are no secret. Rams are offered overseas that do not look like anything like offered in the US.Yes even for protos for RWS. GETTING ONE IS ANOTHER STORY. You just need to do a search . Many other forums offer help. Just beware that not all the reports should be taken for your use. Not all claims are backed with truthful numbers and not all facts are shared for you to duplicate and get the same results.
JOA made claims that he was going to offer the conversions but I am yet to see and thing produced. Not that I would try one. CONVERSIONS ARE AGIAN NOT FOR ANYONE THAT IS NOT EXPERENCED WITH THE PROPERTIES OF AIT GUNS.
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Hey here is a great idea , why don't the owners just ask Dave and mike to come back to gta ?? They were posting some great stuff, I loved reading their posts .....
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I'll wait for Gene to get on his project, and report his thoughts.
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If GENE is working on the ram it will be interesting what he reports.
Here is one of the rams used for the HATSAN overseas.
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I used to work with those cylinders in all sorts of sizes,during my metal stamping die builds and repairs,in the plant.
Back then I had no idea similar units were used in air rifles...this was 4 1/2 years ago.
There were smaller units that could possibly fit the springer type air pistols!
We would have to rebuild the gas rams,that could be repaired in house.
Miss those days sometimes!
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In your picture of the gas ram in the piston. It is in the wrong direction. U dont want to hammer the gas end of ram every time you shoot the gun.
I am looking into the gas ram pressures at the moment. Talking with manufacturers about them. I may be getting a ram in soon for testing but only if it works out with dimensions and overall sweep of shaft. Let me be clear, I am not promoting them but merely trying to find out as much as I can and try and physically fit one to a Hatsan 125 for testing.
Gene
If GENE is working on the ram it will be interesting what he reports.
Here is one of the rams used for the HATSAN overseas.
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Thanks Gene. Will be interesting to see what you find if you decide to post about it.
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Thanks Gene. Will be interesting to see what you find if you decide to post about it.
Paul,
I be interested in reading about the gas ram conversions you said you have done. Was it really that easy ?
Thanks !
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Paul, you did gas ram testing ? Excellent now between you and Gene we will get some real good info. ive been thinking of gas raming my walther falcon hunter 25 cal. do you have any info. on that conversion ?
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Paul, you did gas ram testing ? Excellent now between you and Gene we will get some real good info. ive been thinking of gas raming my walther falcon hunter 25 cal. do you have any info. on that conversion ?
Nope, never said I tested any gas rams.
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I can go into my garage and make any one of my magnums push 30+ FPE easy. That's not the hard part.
Paul,
I thought you meant using gas rams, since that was the topic and you gave links to some gas ram conversions.
Would you be willing to share your Spring conversions that you have used to get your rifles up over 30 fpe?
I think getting a break-barrel up into the 33+ fpe range is very interesting, particularly since my interest is hunting and I like the ability to leave the rifle cocked for extended periods of time, that a gas ram would allow.
The only person I have seen doing that with spring-powered rifles is Chris Pryjomski of C.A.P. Airgun Research.
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Not changing the subject of THIS but being a spring person and dealing mainly in the RWS 350'S i AM more interested as well in the springs. Yes PAUL share some light on THIS. HATSAN BEING NEW THERE IS LITTLE INFO ON THE SPRING THAT IS TO BECOME THE DINASOR IN THE FUTURE SO SOME SAY.
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I can go into my garage and make any one of my magnums push 30+ FPE easy. That's not the hard part.
Would you be willing to share your Spring conversions that you have used to get your rifles up over 30 fpe?
No, I wouldn't.
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I see how this WORKS!! THIS HAS BECOME A NONE SHARE CONFINALITY THING!!!
THIS IS ALRIGHT WITH ME! IT GOES BOTH WAYS AN I RESPECT YOUR DEALINGS AND THOUGHTS.
MUCH LATER!!!
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Whitefang: I just looked up on Hawke Chairgun Pro and it would take a 14.3 gr. pellet at 979 fps to get 30.5 ft.lbs.of energy. I just got a new F1 chrony today and my new Hatsan Mod 95 replacement rifle ( tuned by Rick) was going 808 fps using a 14.3 pellet for 20 ft lbs energy. My recently purchased RAM ( tuned by MM ) was only doing 680 fps using the same 14.3 pellet which to me was very surprising ( and disappointing). But it is what it is. I will not be surprised when the same people that won't share info will be the first to dispute info provided by someone else by saying that person is not qualified or something to that effect. I've seen it over and over, really getting tired of the child's play. Sorry for the rant. Dale
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I was not aware that I had an obligation to answer each and every question put to me. I was also unaware that hints were so hard to understand these days.
I choose not to enter into discussion with certain members for personal reasons. Also, I have answered Fang privately.
To be blunt, I've gone wayyyyyy above and beyond the realm of simply "sharing", to the point of fabricating and providing parts to members on my own time and dime, spending hours putting together how to manuals, and a whole *(&^ of a lot more that is really no ones business. I don't appreciate the unfounded "rants" regarding how I wont share, particularly when those making them have no idea whatsoever what it is they are commenting on.
Satisfied?
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Paul68. I understand crystal clear and I am totally satisfied. Have a great day. Dale
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Paul,
I sincerely hope your comments weren't directed at me.
I am very interested in gas ram conversions and merely asked you questions, based on what you have posted. Since you mentioned it, I felt you would be willing to show what you have worked on and talk about it. Obviously, I was wrong about that.
I'm sorry if I touched a nerve or made you uncomfortable by asking you to share more information about your projects. I hope you'll reconsider sharing your data in the future.
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Paul mellow out man....Whats the big secret to telling how you got a few springer's over 30 ft lbs. Should be able to tell use so we can all give it a go. I think your being to carefull, these guys know what they are doing especially the wolfman.
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Gene simply wanted to know which gas springs have been used. I tried to answer. Then suddenly, yet another gas spring thread gets ridiculous.
I never said in any way shape or form that I was doing conversions of any kind. Thus, nothing for me to "share", explain ect.
The second a thread about these comes up, it's as if someone started bleeding in a shark tank. Reason and sanity goes out the window.
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gene, i found that the 180bar works OK,but will stretch the cocking arm over time and it won't catch the seer.also that the np that mike and Dave are using were the moeller 180 bar and they achieved the power they were looking for ,but that the shot cycle was too harsh,so they took out some pressure and believed to be 170bar now and only lost a small amount of fps and is much smoother ,the np in my talon was originally installed by itpro,and he grind-ed the name off it,only thing left was 180bar made in Sweden,i have since reinstalled that np and spaced it properly to get 3/8 tention on the piston when installed,as i said the cocking arm has stretched 5000 or so shots now. and i had to re bend it but once it stretch i kept having to bend it back till finally i took out some gas,now it is shooting 28.3gr eunjins over the crony i just bought from {johnnyreb}that's another story},at 700 fps {average} ::) , and has not stretched again yet .i hope the info is helpful for you oh and i am using a [JM 28mm red seal ].its not what it use to be for sure but it does alright,easier to cock,for sure now.good luck with your project,keep us posted. ;D
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Supertech excellent post, gas ram conversions are the way to go for sure.
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I have since reinstalled that np and spaced it properly to get 3/8 tension on the piston when installed.
So, you re-installed with 3/8" of pre-load ?
How much pre-load did it originally have ?
Where is the guy you called "ITPRO" ? I'd like to contact him and ask him some questions, is he a GTA Member ?
Thanks !
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his name is frank and i think he too was band from gta,and origanally it had about 3/4 of a inch,and had some washer's welded on the rod,and the weld came undone and it got real noisy inside like a dish sound breaking each time i would shoot it,so i took it apart myself and fixed it the way i thought it would get its max volume,and even tried it with np in tube but that did not work for long till the plastic end plug started to deform from being pushed against the housing pins,even bent the 1st pin, i found when i took it apart again and turned np around and lasted 5k shots or so till it would not cock after it hit the garage floor cocking arm first,while trying to crony it for the 1st time,and from that point , it would not catch the seer,and the pellet hit the steel rod on the crony {and well that is why i now own a crony}and is a story i will save for another time,, as i explained in last post,with what i did from there.i harbor no hard feelings toward itpro at all.he did at the time what he thought would work,i look at it as he got me started playing with the np.now i got the talon,yep its not as strong as before,but that's OK,i got a wfh too now in 22cal,some day if i need/want too i may convert it,but it is dead nut accurate with the 14.3 at 950 fps now,and i got the r.a.m with the talon spring hitting 725fps with 25.4gr beeman,s( smooth as butter shot cycle on all 3 magnum air guns},i been that power hungry air gunner,and i learned that smooth and accurate and fun to shoot is far better than UN controlled power,IMO,i would not hesitate to grab any of those 3 guns to hunt with cause i know i can hit where i point it on all 3 and with the fpe there at not many small to medium game it couldn't drop with in 40yards,i also believe that with his knowledge and experience and contacts,if anyone could make one of these np air magnums do a 1kfps with 20+ gr pellets smoothly and accurately it would be gene.IMO,maybe bob,or Loyd,orEd ,or MM,too.but at what cost? ;D
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I have since reinstalled that np and spaced it properly to get 3/8 tension on the piston when installed.
So, you re-installed with 3/8" of pre-load ?
How much pre-load did it originally have ?
Where is the guy you called "ITPRO" ? I'd like to contact him and ask him some questions, is he a GTA Member ?
Thanks !
he had a post in china gate a long time back 7months on the tf-87 np conversion
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his name is frank and i think he too was banned from gta
So, Itpro, Mike4888blues, and Tarheel were all working with high-power gas ram conversions and all three of them were banned from GTA, yet people are still using their data to continue doing the same thing. Am I missing something here ?
I really don't understand why there is so much secrecy about projects like these and folks get so uptight when questions are asked about them. I think that gas rams will eventually replace springs in the future.
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Part of the problem, IMO, was the lack of "hard data" at the time, using how far a pellet would penetrate things, and observations about how hard it would knock things over, instead of Chrony numbers.... Plus, they wanted to be quite secretive about what they were doing to get the results they claimed, and didn't really appreciate questions about the shooting characteristics.... Now I'm not saying they didn't do what they claimed, but with no hard numbers, and no way for others to duplicate their results.... it kind of became a gong show.... It's really too bad, because some good things went down the tube, lost with all the hype....
Bob
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?****? The problem is fiction vs true facts. Hum!! Is all that is reported true? Do they even have a chrony? is this a seat of pants report? A piston slamming will make a gun feel like power. A overlubed gun will throw out FPS!
SO IT IS UP TO YOU TO SORT OUT THE FICTION AND THE TRUTH.
I HAVE THE TRUTH IN MY HANDS. DO YOU? I'M NOT A GENE OR BOB. No harm ment. THIS Is JUNK YARD AIR GUNS AND I DO HAVE A CHRONY. AND YES I HAVE SHOT MY CHRONY!! YOU GOT YOVE IT!!
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Can I add that popcorn eating smily face here.....cause I enjoy reading this drama about the gas ram conversions and the secret society that surrounds them! ;D
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No one WILL believe me anyway. Rams have been A HOT TOPIC ON THIS TURKEY SITE FOR A WHILE AND IT IS UNDERNEATH EVERYONES EYES. PUFF!! MAGIC!!
NO DIFFERENT THAN ONE WHO DESIRES SPEED. JUST HOW FAR ARE YOU WILLING TO GO? THE SIMPLY THINGS ARE ALWAYS OVERLOOKED. what's a tenth of a second worth $$ wise or 20- 50 FPS? THAT'S WHY WE HAVE UNDERDOGS IN THIS WORLD. JUST SIMPLE PEOPLE WITH SIMPLE WAYS!!
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I like the simple way! One day,when one of my air guns goes sickly,I will dig in and see what makes it tick.
For years,I build and tune my own engines,and will learn how to tune an air gun as well.
But don't throw the old spring gun in the hopper yet..they still get the job done.
As with one of my Mustangs,I keep it old school with a carb,engine driven cooling fan,and no electric fuel systems,but still manage
to have a nice quick RELIABLE 550 HP 10 second crusier. Any more and it would be a headache!
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Old school is me. Old drag boat racer, drag car and 4x4 mudder. I will not put the spring down ever. Springs are cheap and simple.
FANG
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Can I add that popcorn eating smily face here.....cause I enjoy reading this drama about the gas ram conversions and the secret society that surrounds them! ;D
x10
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This is the sort of hard data that is usefull. Thanks for coming fouth with it. Actual hands on and testing like you have done proves there is a limit to the original parts before fatigue sets in.
Thanks
Gene
gene, i found that the 180bar works OK,but will stretch the cocking arm over time and it won't catch the seer.also that the np that mike and Dave are using were the moeller 180 bar and they achieved the power they were looking for ,but that the shot cycle was too harsh,so they took out some pressure and believed to be 170bar now and only lost a small amount of fps and is much smoother ,the np in my talon was originally installed by itpro,and he grind-ed the name off it,only thing left was 180bar made in Sweden,i have since reinstalled that np and spaced it properly to get 3/8 tention on the piston when installed,as i said the cocking arm has stretched 5000 or so shots now. and i had to re bend it but once it stretch i kept having to bend it back till finally i took out some gas,now it is shooting 28.3gr eunjins over the crony i just bought from {johnnyreb}that's another story},at 700 fps {average} ::) , and has not stretched again yet .i hope the info is helpful for you oh and i am using a [JM 28mm red seal ].its not what it use to be for sure but it does alright,easier to cock,for sure now.good luck with your project,keep us posted. ;D
smoother ,the np in my talon was originally installed by itpro,and he grind-ed the name off it,only thing left was 180bar made in Sweden,i have since reinstalled that np and spaced it properly to get 3/8 tention on the piston when installed,as i said the cocking arm has stretched 5000 or so shots now. and i had to re bend it but once it stretch i kept having to bend it back till finally i took out some gas,now it is shooting 28.3gr eunjins over the crony i just bought from {johnnyreb}that's another story},at 700 fps {average} ::) , and has not stretched again yet .i hope the info is helpful for you oh and i am using a [JM 28mm red seal ].its not what it use to be for sure but it does alright,easier to cock,for sure now.good luck with your project,keep us posted. ;D
[/quote]
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Your comments here AG4E are not promoting this post. I think you have two strikes against you already for these kind of posts. Non productive and agitating. Back Off.
Gene
his name is frank and i think he too was banned from gta
So, Itpro, Mike4888blues, and Tarheel were all working with high-power gas ram conversions and all three of them were banned from GTA, yet people are still using their data to continue doing the same thing. Am I missing something here ?
I really don't understand why there is so much secrecy about projects like these and folks get so uptight when questions are asked about them. I think that gas rams will eventually replace springs in the future.
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The cocking rod is a weak point without any mod on the HATSAN with the bend for the SAS. The rod is easily bent by exerting to much pressure when cocking without a ram or heavy spring. Same design as the WFH.
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In your picture of the gas ram in the piston. It is in the wrong direction. U dont want to hammer the gas end of ram every time you shoot the gun.
I am looking into the gas ram pressures at the moment. Talking with manufacturers about them. I may be getting a ram in soon for testing but only if it works out with dimensions and overall sweep of shaft. Let me be clear, I am not promoting them but merely trying to find out as much as I can and try and physically fit one to a Hatsan 125 for testing.
Gene
If GENE is working on the ram it will be interesting what he reports.
Here is one of the rams used for the HATSAN overseas.
Hey Gene!! Weren't the Air Ventrui rams backwards as well in the beginning? The thing on the one in the picture, which I assume you have seen before, has two seals and it appears that the ram tube is the piston as well.
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Hey Gene!! Weren't the Air Ventrui rams backwards as well in the beginning? The thing on the one in the picture, which I assume you have seen before, has two seals and it appears that the ram tube is the piston as well.
I've done a number of conversions and a scratch built rifle using gas springs. It seems like they should be installed piston rod forward. But in reality, I have found no real difference. I now mount them in whichever direction is the most convenient or most practical for a particular rifle. The weight of the body and the weight of the piston are not much different so total moving mass is about the same regardless of the direction.
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The piston on the Hatsan break barrels are solid steel. When they slam home it is quite an impact. The piston will bounce some and so will the gas ram when installed with gas chamber in piston. The impact is much greater than when the gas ram is set so the shaft goes in the piston. The shaft takes the abuse and will compress some when it hits bottom.
It is my opinion that the life of the ram will be cut short if installed with chamber in pison.
Guys lets not get carried away here and trash this thread. I did not start this thread for it to get trashed. Super Tech has answered the biggest part of my questions about the size of gas ram. No need to carry this thread any further.
Gene
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To answer Gene's original question about gas rams used in the Hatsan 125:
From what I have read in threads here on GTA, both the N-FORCER MF19-125-YW and the MOELLER M90-125-YW gas rams have been tested in the Hatsan 125.
The Hatsan 125 has a 120mm stroke and those rams have a maximum 125mm stroke.
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Scotchmo provided some very good info on conversions he worked with nearly a year ago, with the the gas springs he determined worked well. Very good thread.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,20192.0.html (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,20192.0.html)
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Well I may now have some access to these gas rams again. I start next week,on a flexible part time basis,helping a company in their
Tool&Die dept. Pick up a few bucks to help with retirement.
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Part of the problem, IMO, was the lack of "hard data" at the time, using how far a pellet would penetrate things, and observations about how hard it would knock things over, instead of Chrony numbers.... Plus, they wanted to be quite secretive about what they were doing to get the results they claimed, and didn't really appreciate questions about the shooting characteristics.... Now I'm not saying they didn't do what they claimed, but with no hard numbers, and no way for others to duplicate their results.... it kind of became a gong show.... It's really too bad, because some good things went down the tube, lost with all the hype....
Bob
to be fair mike does have a chrono and is using it in his testing and has got away from the real heavy pistons because they were just not fun to shoot, also I believe him or tarheel were getting the trigger parts stress tested to see what they can handle before they got the boot. not arguing hear just some info. mike has been testing like crazy
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Well, Gene simply asked which rams were used and hopefully I got em right, but since once again it seems there is some misconception that this is some pioneering or innovative work that could only be found through former members, I'll throw out two links to conversions that have been around far longer than either Mike or Tarheel's efforts. There are more, but the point should be clear.
Hey cool, that first link is ME :) haha....
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I have had a Hatsan 125 and 85 running a gas spring for some time. The latchup on these old style guns is shyte so needs fixing to get decent results.
With a hollow piston they are a natural for gas springs.
Walter....
BTW was put onto these by Airgunsmith back when he was an innovator. Is his site still up?
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Well, Gene simply asked which rams were used and hopefully I got em right, but since once again it seems there is some misconception that this is some pioneering or innovative work that could only be found through former members, I'll throw out two links to conversions that have been around far longer than either Mike or Tarheel's efforts. There are more, but the point should be clear.
airgunforum.ca/forums/topic23031.html
Paul, you making me famous here!!!!!! lol
21.5fpe from a .177 springer is pretty fair IMO running conservative pressure as my N2 tank was low at the time.
Need to revisit this.....