GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: vrotsos991 on July 31, 2012, 10:29:13 PM
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So i got to talking with a buddy at work and the conversation of 150+ yard shots with air rifles was brought up. Is there any gun out there that can hold tight enough groups with enough FPE to take a animal and or be able to shoot competitivly at those rances
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Depends on the size animal.... The new .223 cal 41.5 gr bullets they are using in Holland will hit a quarter consistently at 100 meters (110 yards) and they would still have over 60 FPE at 150 yards when lauched at 950 fps.... They have 1/4 to 1/5th the wind drift of a good pellet....
Bob
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At 100 yds my 470 and 350 will go through a 1 gal milk jug full of water and my condor will blow through 1/4 fiberglass boat hull at 108. At 150 im not sure havent shot that far.
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here is an marauder stock, .22 with jsb 18gr pellets at 100yds..16x scope :o 50 more yards and i think the group would be much bigger....
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Ted "edgunUSA" has a video on youtube of him taking a feral pigeon at 130 yards. The issue is not just grouping and FPE, it is also one's ability to accurately judge the distance and the amount of hold over and wind drift to account for. Long range shooting is an art as much as a science. The more of it you do, the better you get. I've got friends who routinely shoot targets at over 500 yards with revolvers. Mostly in 44 mag, 45 Colt (hot loads, Ruger only), 454 Casull, 475 and 500 Linebaugh, etc. AND they hit consistently at those distances. Me? I have a hard time reaching past 100 yards with a sixgun since I simply don't get to shoot that much and can't keep in practice. With an airgun you'd need to spend a lot of time shooting at targets over a period of time in order to be able to accurately judge the distance, wind drift, trajectory, etc. As mentioned above, there are rifles and projectiles capable of reaching those distances accurately and with plenty of power. The joker in the deck is the shooter, can he pull it off humanely?
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No question, the shooter is the biggest variable in hunting at any range.... The point I was trying to make is that our waisted pellets have a dismal Ballistics Coefficient which makes the wind drift virtually impossible to decipher at anything past 100 yards.... A bullet with a much better BC is needed, and going from a pellet with a BC of 0.032 to a bullet with a BC of 0.130 cuts the drift by 75%.... not to mention a flatter trajectory and far better retained energy.... The limit currently is not the airgun, but the projectile....
Bob
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No question, the shooter is the biggest variable in hunting at any range.... The point I was trying to make is that our waisted pellets have a dismal Ballistics Coefficient which makes the wind drift virtually impossible to decipher at anything past 100 yards.... A bullet with a much better BC is needed, and going from a pellet with a BC of 0.032 to a bullet with a BC of 0.130 cuts the drift by 75%.... not to mention a flatter trajectory and far better retained energy.... The limit currently is not the airgun, but the projectile....
Bob
And that is why I'm VERY interested in cast "pellets" and the rifles capable of launching them accurately. You might say I've got a bit of angst going concerning the issue. I've got one shot at picking up a PCP this fall and don't want to flub the choice. :-) So far the 25 caliber is foremost in my thoughts. A 25 caliber mold is fairly easy to come by, not too hard to cut down should it be too long and there's a choice or two as well as the possibility of going to a full out custom mold by LBT. The rifle, now, that is the question. I'm following along on your AT44 build with great interest. The BT65 is another option and then there's the Sumatra. I don't know if the Marauder will generate enough velocity with the heavier projectiles or not. But all these are probably not going to be very effective over 100 meters, that is I don't believe they'll get the FPS necessary to have a usable trajectory much past that range. The search for info goes on.
Then there's the 22 caliber. I've not seen a mold yet that looks like it'd cast a "pellet" for the rifles I've been considering. perhaps with some milling down, I don't know. The thought of a Marauder in 22 using a 25 caliber valve has crossed my mind. That might boost the heavier pellets along their way - or would it be counter productive?
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If you are going .25 cal with cast bullets, I would suggest the BT65 over the AT44, to get the extra power for the heavier bullets.... The obvious choice missing from your list, however, is the Condor in .25 cal.... You are going to want to drive a 60 gr. slug in .25 cal at ~950 fps.... and that means 120 FPE.... That will give you comparable ballistics to the 41.5 gr. bullet in .223 cal at the same velocity, but it "only" requires 80 FPE to get there....
Bob
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Is there any gun out there that can hold tight enough groups with enough FPE to take a animal and or be able to shoot competitivly at those rances
There is a U tube video of a chick shooting a 12 pound gun 250 yards and hitting her target.
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If you mean 12 FPE, the retained energy would be, at best, about 2 FPE at 250 yards.... and the drop is over 36 FEET below a 100 yard sight in.... In a 1 MPH crosswind (you can't even feel that on your face), the drift would be over 13".... If the gun was capable of maintaining 1 MOA at that range, the groups would be 2.5"....
Yes, I'm sure she can hit a target, with a lot of practice, and a scope shimmed/adjusted for the purpose.... Is it practical for hunting?.... Not a chance.... Triple the energy and the retained energy triples to 6 FPE.... The drop with a 100 zero to a mere 12 feet.... and the wind drift to "only" about 8 "....
I am assuming she is using waisted pellets, of course, in the above calculations....
Bob
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.............................. Long range shooting is an art as much as a science. The more of it you do, the better you get. ................................
Excellent observation!
Lloyd-ss
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Back when the "Jarrett bean field" long-range deer rifles were so popular, a well-respected gun mag writer told of a conversation he had which went something like this - Fellow up and states "I've got a 400 yard rifle!" To which the writer replied, "Yes, but are you a 400 yard shot?" There's a world of difference between hunting and benching/paper punching. Mike Venturino is well known for shooting 1,000 yard black powder cartridge guns - a real life Quigley. Writing in a recent Rifle magazine, he confessed that his best offhand hunting accuracy was about 140 yards, and that for deer.
I know guys who won't take a 150 yard shot with a .22lr. Trying with a diablo pellet of less mass and speed? OK if your target is an old frying pan but not OK if you intend to put it into a frying pan. Just my two cents, plain. ;-)
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If you are going .25 cal with cast bullets, I would suggest the BT65 over the AT44, to get the extra power for the heavier bullets.... The obvious choice missing from your list, however, is the Condor in .25 cal.... You are going to want to drive a 60 gr. slug in .25 cal at ~950 fps.... and that means 120 FPE.... That will give you comparable ballistics to the 41.5 gr. bullet in .223 cal at the same velocity, but it "only" requires 80 FPE to get there....
Bob
Thanks, Bob. That's about the conclusion I've come to, the BT65. I've looked at the Condor, but can't warm up to it. It does not look very ergonomic on one hand and looks too "bellicose" on the other. We've few laws regarding air power here yet but I don't want to rock the boat too much, hence my interest in more traditional looking air guns. A limiting factor in the repeaters may be over all length of the projectile. If it won't fit into the feeding device then it doesn't matter how hard the rifle could theoretically push it. So far I haven't found any dimensions on the length of the cylinders that are being used in these rifles. The Condor, of course, should prove more flexible in this area. Thanks for the feedback.
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Is there any gun out there that can hold tight enough groups with enough FPE to take a animal and or be able to shoot competitivly at those rances
There is a U tube video of a chick shooting a 12 pound gun 250 yards and hitting her target.
One thing is hitting it, another thing is putting it down humanely. I have shot an inch group at 50 meters out of my IZH46M pistol. The pellets made the distance fine but stuck in the cardboard backing the target. Oh, and they didn't hit the target either. I was holding up the entire front sight above the rear sight and holding that against the top of the backer and the pellets were still hitting about 15" or so below the point of aim. I was shooting for the fun of it, just got a wild hair and decided to give it a whirl, the CFX just wasn't enough of a challenge that day. I was pleased with the tight group, especially since there was little point of reference to maintain consistent hold from shot to shot shooting that way. But it would not be ethical to try and take even a starling at that distance with that pistol as I could not guarantee a clean kill.
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Clean kills are always my first priority. I was just curious because i heard of people shooting 50g bullets out of a condor over 1000fps.