GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: bradyman1 on June 25, 2012, 02:48:12 PM
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Ok, I know it has been discussed a million times but here it goes. I will clean, and crosshatch the compression cylinder. I will apply moly to the spring ends, piston, and moving parts of the cocking system. I will use silicone oil to help aid in the installation of the seal with a very thin film of silicone oil on the seal edge.
The question.. Can I run an extremely thin film of Moly on the compression cylinder wall or do I need to use Superlube, and if so do I use the oil version or the grease version?
The gun in question is a Walther Falcon Hunter .25.
Anything else I am forgetting? I got this info from the CDT tuning guide.
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I have used moly.
Basically burnishing it in to the receiver. Then a clean rag, to wipe out excess.
See what the group consensus is, maybe CDT will post.
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Yes, use moly. Superlube is a no no in a springer. CDT's guide tells you everything you need to know. TheKid's method is perfect. Spread it in the compression chamber thin and even, and wipe it all out with something like a clean dry rag on a dowel. Enough moly will remain in the crosshatch, and the little moly you spread on the piston will keep the crosshatch loaded up. Every time you fire it gets slung around in the tube, and every time you cock it gets spread out and the seal wipes back the excess. Careful not to use too much or it will sludge up all over inside and you'll lose power
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Thanks guys. Anyone else have any comments or tips?
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This is what I tried on the last lube. If CDT or any other tuner says I am off track here. I would be happy to hear comments. I put a light coat as possible or automatic trans fluid on the cylinder wall. Being that the fluid won't burn. If there something better I am sure use it the next time.
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hey-Hey!!!,
There are a few places where moly is quite important. One is at the skirt just opposite the cocking shoe, the other is at the front, just behind the seal and on the same side as cocking shoe engagement. these places are where pressure is highest from pressure required to compress the spring. If you cover the lube requirements for these two places the rest will also be taken care of almost as a side effect. I paint a bit on the inside of the tube behind the piston before I slide in the spring and trigger...and to echo nearly every other post, it does not take very much at all.
cheers,
Douglas
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Not sure where I ever said the SuperLube was a no-no. SuperLube w/PTFE is probably one of the best things that you can use on the compression chamber walls. I used SuperLube w/PTFE all of the years that I tuned guns and would never use anything else on most guns. It is important (as with any other lubing) to remove any excess and that it should be a light film remaining on the wall. One of the best things about using it is that the PTFE has the ability to fill in many of the minute imperfections of the chamber. And... SuperLube w/PTFE is what is recommended in my tune guides on the website as well as in the GTA library.
Personally, I would never use or suggest ATF. It is too thin to be of much lubrication value, especially long term because it wipes away almost immediately and can/will cause extreme detonation just about like any other petroleum product. Years and years ago people used to put it (as well as Slick 50 and some other oils and additives) in the port and into the chamber to give the gun more power. Of course the springs and seals let go and they never knew why. ??? :o :'(
A good grade of 60 or 70% Moly is hard to beat when used in a springer. It really is to the benefit to both you and your gun to pay attention to how and what you do when tuning your gun and what you use to lube your gun. I get e-mails from people that I tuned guns for 8-10 even 12 years ago telling me that their gun is still shooting as good as the day they got it back but wondering if maybe it should be tuned again. My response to them is that …. If it is still shooting well… just keep shooting it.
Very rarely did I ever have a gun returned and the reason was that I treated every gun as if it was my own and I wanted it to be the best it could be. And it was for that reason that reputation became what it was. My intent is not to blow my own horn here but it has been said by many that I am a legend in the world of airguns or in the world of springer airguns. Believe me, the only thing that I did was learn and absorb all that I could from both other pro’s and through experimentation throughout the years and then applied what I learned. And not only did I apply it, I passed it all onto others.
Bt the way...There is a copy of the Tuning Test Data that every customer got with every tune. This data spread sheet is available to anyone who wants it. It is available in the library
Excel FPS/FPE/Trigger Work Sheet - Donated by CDT
as well as on my website in the “Airgun Info” section.
http://www.charliedatuna.com/airgun_docs/Excel%20Chrony%20Data%20Processor.xls (http://www.charliedatuna.com/airgun_docs/Excel%20Chrony%20Data%20Processor.xls)
CDT
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I have used moly.
Basically burnishing it in to the receiver. Then a clean rag, to wipe out excess.
See what the group consensus is, maybe CDT will post.
Charlie,
I really appreciate your input. You are a very valuable asset to the airgun community and I doubt there are many of us airgunners who has not learned something very valuable from your willingness to share your knowledge. Would substituting Moly (I ordered the stuff from Maccari) for Superlube as shown above in Rob's post be advisable or would you suggest sticking to the Superlube?
I guess my basic question is can Moly and Superlube be used in place of each other? Or is Superlube only for the compression chamber and Moly for all the other surfaces that require lubrication?
Thanks for the help!
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I use SuperLube to prime my compression chamber walls, per CDT. The thinnest coat possible. I use my finger to squeegee out all but a thin film. I have found that it works better and is more resistant to dieseling than a thin coat of moly. Both have some volatile components that can diesel, and so does every other lube that I have tested but SuperLube is the best so far. Burnished moly might be OK, but the synthetic seals seem to like Superlube better. The moly almost feels gritty in comparison. I still use moly but usually for steel on steel applications, especially high load areas.
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The moly grease "sticks" & stays in place best on moving parts. You'll see, when you get it. ;) keep some rags handy... That's why it's used there. Superlube lubricant for the tube. Not Interchangeable lubricants. No ATF stuff.
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hey-Hey!!!,
Y'all should look at the Krytox oils for the chamber wall lube task. It is nearly impossible to remove, and it won't diesel...not even a little bit. It is Daystate Air Ranger expensive, even if you get it in 1/2-oz tubes. Worth every penny still; $3-4 of lube on a $300-600 rifle is officially peanuts.
Moly is of greatest use where speed is low and pressure is high; this is where the usual behaviour of a grease being to float the two pieces apart hydrostatically isn't possible. The moly will be acting *LIKE* ball bearings then...it is a 'like' the actual behaviour is described elsewhere; Google is your friend here.
cheers,
Douglas
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Thanks guys. It is becoming much more clear now. I like that, "superlube for the tube". Moly on the rest. So I will lube the tube with superlube, lubricate behind the piston seal with a VERY thin layer of Moly and lubricate spring ends and all the other moving parts with Moly.
Should I lubricate the edge of the seal that rides in the compression chamber with a very light coat of Superlube?
Just to be clear by light I mean wipe it on then wipe it clean until it is virtually all gone. Is this the correct process?
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The Moly and SuperLube are two completely different lubes that have their own purposes. 8) The SuperLube is used as and for part of the assembly process whereas the Moly is used as the true ongoing lube for the gun over a long period of time. The Moly is a must. ;) SuperLube is great for installing piston and seating the piston seal against the cylinder walls as it is being installed and and does help fill the imperfections with the Teflon, but it has no where near the lubing life and quality of the Moly. :( It is very important that the Moly does not have a hi viscosity or thin carrier.
Shhh ... don't tell anybody >:( but one of my secrets when tuning was to apply the SuperLube on the walls and then install the piston and seal, move it in and out the distance of travel in the compression chamber needed about a dozen times, remove the piston, wipe out the cylinder, Moly lube the the piston as usual part of the procedure and finally install it. But it is important that the cylinder has been deburred well before doing this or you will surely cut the seal.
A point of interest regarding Moly.
Moly comes in many grades with many different carriers. A good Moly does have a bit of a gritty feeling to it but that is the wonder of a good Molly. The less percentage of Moly, the less you can feel it and the more you will just feel the carrier. The Moly is like small microscopic ball bearings and is used in applications where two metal surfaces rub back and forth against each other and is not usually used in applications as a rule on rotating surfaces or things like bearing using cones or cups.
Good Moly is very expensive. The Moly I used for tuning was a 77% Moly used in the Aerospace industry and if I recall it was almost $170.00 for 14 oz a number of years ago. :o :o But.... that was enough to do close to 1000 guns, would hold up and do it's job forever. ;D That said though, JM's Moly is as good as the everyday airgun home tuner would ever need. It is well worth paying a little extra. ;) ;)
CDT
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Thanks for your help Bob. I will take your advice and I will be getting some Superlube. This whole lubing thing is becoming much more clear. :)
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Just things I do ...did ::) ::) Here he goes... bumping his gums again.. ;D ;D ;D
A quickie about lubing the piston and seal.... for what it's worth.
When mounting the seal on the piston, I would use silicone grease although you could use the SuperLube. Just remove the excess. I would apply a thin application on the back of and on the cone part of the seal then install it on the piston. Now grasp the seal and turn it back and forth on the piston several times so that the seal sets firmly and perfectly centered. 8)
You can use either the silicone grease or Moly on the outer edge of the seal when installing the piston in the gun. I would normally use the Moly unless it was not a parachute type seal.
The piston. Whatever you do, do not polish the piston. :o I chuckle to myself every time someone writes about how they polished the piston. Self defeating. In fact, if it has an extremely smooth or polished type surface you may want to rough it up just a little although that can be hard to do on some pistons because they are very hard steel. >:( Much easier to do if you have a lathe. The logic here is that the Moly will adhere to the rougher surface and will hold the Moly better and it will not fly off so readily. ;)
Look at the piston and see if there is any shiny surfaces where the piston may have been rubbing the chamber wall. This may be visible if the gun has some mileage on it. If so, scuff it just a little if you can and apply a light film of Molly here. You will usually see this on the upper opposite side of the cocking slot. 8)
Lubing the piston. The piston itself should have a coat of Molly from the back of the seated seal to about one inch behind it around the piston. Do the same with the rear of the piston. This applied lube is what is going to provide the lube for your seal and provide the fuel for the compression chamber for the life of the tune. :o 8) It should be covered well but not real heavy. Lube the cocking slot of the piston where the cocking foot/shoe rides.
Guess I've made enough noise for one day.
CDT
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Glad you chimed in CDT.
It always helps us out...Thanks :)
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Very, Very helpful info. Thank you very much. I think I can sucessfully tackle this beast. I am feeling much more confident now!
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Does anyone know a good local source for Super lube? My local Walmart doesn't carry it.
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I used to get it at Ace Hardware but I think you can also get it at most good hardware stores and they might even have it at Home Depot and Lowes also. Not 100% sure of that though. Be sure that it has PTFE though.
CDT
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Ok. Thanks. I'll check Ace. If I can't find it i'll order it online.
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I just noticed that there is some sort of rubber, plastic style washer on the spring guide and it is cracked. Can I replace it with steel or brass? The guide is plastic and the cone spacer on top is steel.
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll180/bradyman1/IMAG1247.jpg)
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll180/bradyman1/IMAG1248.jpg)
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Wow. Looks like I caught a case of foot-mouth. Charlie, sorry for throwing that out there about the moly in conjunction with your name. I didn't even know what superlube is, and I just assumed that anybody that knows anything about spring guns uses moly exclusively, maybe silicon oil to ease installation of the seal. I guess that's what I get for being a Mr. Know-it-all. Also, Bradyman, i apologize for misinforming you. I guess I have a lot more to learn than I thought.
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No problem Brian. We all have a lot to learn, just about different subjects :)
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Here are a couple of quick and dirty sources that I have used for Superlube w/PTFE:
http://www.amazon.com/Super-Lube-31110-Multi-Purpose-Synthetic/dp/B0016GTSBY/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&coliid=I363B0Z901OAGX&colid=3TBOSOQ33PCSN (http://www.amazon.com/Super-Lube-31110-Multi-Purpose-Synthetic/dp/B0016GTSBY/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&coliid=I363B0Z901OAGX&colid=3TBOSOQ33PCSN)
http://www.amazon.com/Super-Lube-Multi-Purpose-Grease-Syncolon/dp/B0037QG4BS/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT1_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&coliid=I39G1VG5RZBS66&colid=3TBOSOQ33PCSN (http://www.amazon.com/Super-Lube-Multi-Purpose-Grease-Syncolon/dp/B0037QG4BS/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT1_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&coliid=I39G1VG5RZBS66&colid=3TBOSOQ33PCSN)
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If teflon and non-flamability are important as y'all say they are for upper chamber lube they why( besides the few $/gun price ) has nobody used Krytox GPL 205 grease? Read some of the application notes on that stuff; it was *MADE* for the use springers put it to...:)
cheers,
Douglas
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That stuff looks pretty good to me. Best you can do is try it, no way that stuff could be any worse than what some of these guns are shipped with. I'm really interested in the results of such a test.
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Hey .. not a problem Bryan. ;)
One of the best reasons PakProtector (Douglas) as with so many other things, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. ;) All of the lubes normally recommended for springers are tried and true and have been used by myself and other pro-tuners as well as a great many other DIYers over a period of many many years. They have proven to be about as good as it gets in springers, they don't fail and are not expensive. ;D The guesswork has been taken out of it and the testing and evaluation has been done over the years by some of the best airgun mechanics there ever was. :D
The question is my mind is why you seem to be pressing Krytox GPL 205 grease. ??? I looked at it and it certainly does not impress me, is very expensive, $25.00 and up for 1/2 ounce and doesn't appear to provide anything that's going to improve what is already being used by most of the people that work on guns now. ::) Why would or should anybody change? ??? My suggestion is that anybody that reads this, stick to the old proven and true. ;D ;D Ya can't go wrong there.
And until something has been tested in several hundred guns over a period of time and positive meaningful results established, I wouldn't even consider it.
And to those that read this ... stick with what you know works and you will not wonder what went wrong.
CDT
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Wow...$25.00 answered that question to me ! :o
I use Superlube in the small bottle (4oz), and it's only $7 at Home Depot. You can also use it to thin the thick factory grease in your fishing reels and makes them work much better. Catfishermen make messes of them so I've gone thru a couple bottles...
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Hey Mike... it should be the SuperLube w/PTFE grease. I didn't even know that they made it and have never seen it in an oil form.
CDT
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Yeah Bob. They come in a little 4 oz application bottle. Synthetic oil w/suspended PTFE additive, same as the grease. Now it's not a fine machine oil, like a sewing/business machine oil, but is good stuff. Home Depot here has it. You might take a look for it. Mike
Edit: Bottle P/N 51004
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The Moly and SuperLube are two completely different lubes that have their own purposes. 8) The SuperLube is used as and for part of the assembly process whereas the Moly is used as the true ongoing lube for the gun over a long period of time. The Moly is a must. ;) SuperLube is great for installing piston and seating the piston seal against the cylinder walls as it is being installed and and does help fill the imperfections with the Teflon, but it has no where near the lubing life and quality of the Moly. :( It is very important that the Moly does not have a hi viscosity or thin carrier.
Shhh ... don't tell anybody >:( but one of my secrets when tuning was to apply the SuperLube on the walls and then install the piston and seal, move it in and out the distance of travel in the compression chamber needed about a dozen times, remove the piston, wipe out the cylinder, Moly lube the the piston as usual part of the procedure and finally install it. But it is important that the cylinder has been deburred well before doing this or you will surely cut the seal. ...........................................................
CDT
thanks for planting this in the forum for me to dig up later . hehehe . and good to know about JM moly vs. Krytox that i've read comments about . as for the actual spring lube JM recommends " ...... Use Heavy tar on OEM guns where the guides and spring have a poor fit. Heavy tar is best at dampening. ...... " . which would seem to apply to the hatsan springers and the 34/350 "clones by xisco , and umarex/ruger .... . do you concur on that ? and what's the best application method ? a thin amount barely painted on the spring with a small art paint brush ? or spider webbing it on heavier with little strands running from coil to coil ? or some other method ?
and what to do on the spring ends . what lube do you recommend ?
also interested in your thoughts on using a piece of 2 liter soda bottle in the piston between it and the spring . i'm sure you'd use something much more professional , but is the premise sound ?
thanks .
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Ok, I know it has been discussed a million times but here it goes. I will clean, and crosshatch the compression cylinder. I will apply moly to the spring ends, piston, and moving parts of the cocking system. I will use silicone oil to help aid in the installation of the seal with a very thin film of silicone oil on the seal edge.
The question.. Can I run an extremely thin film of Moly on the compression cylinder wall or do I need to use Superlube, and if so do I use the oil version or the grease version?
The gun in question is a Walther Falcon Hunter .25.
Anything else I am forgetting? I got this info from the CDT tuning guide.
For decades piston guns have been successfully maintained by minerial oil based dieseling molly lubes and it does work well when used appropriately in minute amounts. One sure way to make a springer poi dependent on the shooting temperature is to use enough thick molly "tar" to kill spring twang/vibration because the stuff will change viscosity as the temp changes which affects the action of the piston. This applies to all "dinosaur based greases" regardless of the additives IMHO!
For a couple decades I also used only molly paste sparingly applied, then a few years ago I decided to try "diesel-less shooting" and started lubing my piston seal/piston/compression area with powdered graphite after stripping of all oils/grease. This worked just fine without issue, however since I use a home turned aluminium oring sealed piston cap in place of a factory piston seal I was a bit concerned about electrolysis between the steel piston, aluminium cap, powdered graphite, and moisture in the atmosphere. I actually did some experiments where I bolted together a steel washer and aluminium washer with powdered graphite between, then soaked the assembly in water, then set it on a shelf to dry for 3 months. After the test period I disassembled the assembly and found that the clamped together surfaces were perfectly good with only discolored aluminium and no pitting.
I kept the "non-dieseling approach" for a couple seasons using powdered graphite till I found the aerospace lube called Dupont Krytox or the Euro version called Ultimox. Finding that the Krytox/Ultimox is an excellent metal to metal lube as well as an excellent rubber/plastic lube (molly paste isn't such a good "non-steel" lube)..........plus it's completely non-dieseling, I've been using the Krytox/Ultimox ever since (a couple years now) and I've been using Krytox for ALL internal lubing of my R9!
Anywhoo....bottom line, I really wasn't pleased with the "dieseling properties" of any "dinosaur based lubes" regardless of the additives and I'm glad that I learned about the "Krytox stuff" from reading some airgun forums!
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I don't put anything on the cylinder wall. I smear moly on the piston, behind the piston seal and around the back end of the piston. This will keep too much of the lube from getting in front of the piston seal, where it will combust. I leave the piston seal itself dry. It is better for the gun in the long run and puts the lube where it is most important. Metal to metal contact is most likely to occur at the rear edge of the piston, and the smear of lube behind the piston seal provides a tiny amount of fuel for combustion every time you cock the gun. In case you are worried about corrosion, firing a few shots will get flick and smear the lube all over inside the tube. So just smear a little bit of moly on the spring ends, spring guide, tophat, and washers, and also around the rear end of the piston and in the front just behind the piston seal. I don't care for tar, but it does dampen vibration and provide a nicer shot cycle. If you use it just use a dab across the mid-section of the spring, kind of stringy looking like a spider web. Again, just use a dab. Over time, it will get slung all over the inside of your gun.
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;D
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"I really wasn't pleased with the "dieseling properties" of any "dinosaur based lubes"
were you putting on too much ? FWIU when moly is properly applied dieseling is a short term issue .
" ...... just smear a little bit of moly on the spring ends, spring guide, tophat, and washers, and also around the rear end of the piston and in the front just behind the piston seal. I don't care for tar, but it does dampen vibration and provide a nicer shot cycle. If you use it just use a dab across the mid-section of the spring, kind of stringy looking like a spider web. Again, just use a dab. Over time, it will get slung all over the inside of your gun. "
thanks 8)
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"I really wasn't pleased with the "dieseling properties" of any "dinosaur based lubes"
were you putting on too much ? FWIU when moly is properly applied dieseling is a short term issue .
" ...... just smear a little bit of moly on the spring ends, spring guide, tophat, and washers, and also around the rear end of the piston and in the front just behind the piston seal. I don't care for tar, but it does dampen vibration and provide a nicer shot cycle. If you use it just use a dab across the mid-section of the spring, kind of stringy looking like a spider web. Again, just use a dab. Over time, it will get slung all over the inside of your gun. "
thanks 8)
Yep....I know how to use "molly" and when I used it the application was VERY minute and tedious to apply. For me the ONLY purpose of molly (paste or "tar") was to break metal to metal sliding contact and when "tar" was applied to the spring it was applied so thin that the coils were "stained black" without any strings at all. I got NO dieseling after a tune, even for the first shots, however when shooting on a warm day I would occasionally get a whiff of that "Greyhound bus stop smell" after the shot. No detonation or abnormal behavior, but the smell told me there was occasional burning "dinosaur lube" that was migrating in front of the piston seal from the compression area. I always used the thin stain of "tar" on the outside of the spring coils to break the metal to metal contact when the spring squirms a bit with cocking and rubs the inside of the piston. Here is a pic of a broken Maccari spring after several years of use and 10s of thousands of shots in an R9.........
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2052014/1406300008_220672151_BrokenSpring.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=54197)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2052014/1406299783_2137884024_SpringBreak.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=54196)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
In this pic you can see where the spring coils were polished in certain areas fro "squirm" even though the spring guide had a TIGHT fit and the shot cycle was twangless/vibrationless. By the way, this was during the time I was using tar on the spring coils and you can see the "spring colored black with tar" behind the "squirm polished coils".
For me dieseling is a thing of the past with Krytox/Ultimox and I don't have to be real fussy with applying it either! When I used "molly lubes" I DIDN'T tolerate dieseling even short term a fresh tune except for an occasional FAINT diesel exhaust smell!
Anywhoo......molly bearing "dinosaur lubes" have been used SUCCESSFULLY for decades in piston guns so there is nothing wrong with your approach!
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thanks NCED .
what's your thoughts on replacements for the spring ? any experience with ARH/JM springs vs's vortek springs ? or is there a brand you prefer over them ?
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thanks NCED .
what's your thoughts on replacements for the spring ? any experience with ARH/JM springs vs's vortek springs ? or is there a brand you prefer over them ?
Well.....I've used ARH springs for a couple decades now and I'm pretty pleased with them! I started with a JM soft spring kit for my R10 a couple decades ago and saved the pellet tins and boxes to keep count of the shots. Well, after 20,000 shots my R10 was still shooting 7.9 grain pellets at 905fps and it started out at 910fps a couple years before so I stopped counting shots! Since then I bought bare springs from JM, several at a time, and since they last so darn long I'm still using the last of my stash I bought over a decade before. I'm currently using a JM spring that I think was called E-1500 many years ago and it has 34 coils of .120 wire wound with a .540 ID. I've been playing with 12-13fpe tunes for my .177 R9 for a couple seasons now, however I reinstalled my last E-1500 (I think that's what it was called) yesterday and kinda going back to my roots which was 14.5fpe-ish power level. Today I was doing some shooting from my 10-53 yards at my back yard practice lane and while the R9 cocks a bit stiffer than before with a 13fpe kit and the shot cycle is a bit sharper.......I honestly couldn't tell where the current 14.5fpe tune is less accurate than with a 13fpe tune! By the way, before shooting I chronied the R9 with my ProChrono Digital and I was shooting 8.4 grain 4.52mm JSB Exacts at 880fps. At the 2014 National Field Target match I was using the same home rolled spring kit to shoot the Exacts at 865fps, however I've added a bit more spacing this time. Well.....if I added any more spacing the gun won't latch when cocking.....LOL
A few years ago when Vortek was starting to sell the PG2 kit I bought one for the R9. That spring came with ground but unclosed spring ends with a heavy steel top hat. I installed the kit and immediately found that the velocity with my oring sealed .177 R9 was much too high for my liking with 7.9 grain CPLs clocking 950fps! I broke down the R9, removed the thick heavy top hat and cut a new thinner top hat on my lathe which reduced the velocity to a more tolerable 910fps with CPLs. After shooting a 1250count box of CPLs I noticed that my trajectory had changed and the chrony registered a velocity drop from 910fps to 880fps. I broke down the R9 again and replaced my thinner home spun top hat with the original one that came with the PG2 kit and the velocity went back to 910ish fps. Two boxes of 1250 count CPLs later the velocity had again dropped down to 880fps. Bottom line, the PG2 kit spring sagged with less than 4 boxes of CPLs for a velocity drop from 950fps to 880fps. I talked to more than a couple field target shooters that tried the Vortek kits and they reported a similar velocity degrade so I reverted back to my Maccari springs stock pile in the parts bin.
In defense of Vortek, that was a very early kit with unclosed spring ends and now the spring ends are closed, ground and polished. While I have no PERSONAL experience with the current Vortek springs I've read quite a few glowing reviews so perhaps the wire and process has improved in the last few years. One thing I do like is that Vortek will supply a custom spring with user specified coils based of several different coil ODs and wire sizes. When my last ARH spring "bites the dust" I'll probably install another Vortek spring of my own OD, wire size and coil count to see if indeed they are "longer lived" than the early offering I used.
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I seem to remember someone saying that a small amount of dieseling was part of the power of a spring gun and the proper lube would make sure there was just enough there to keep it going. Been a few years since I was researching tuning, so my memory could be off.
Anyhow this thread has become a great refresher course and I was also wanting to know what this new Krytox stuff was. Got it all in one thread without searching ;D.
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thanks for sharing your experience nced 8) .
FWIU ...... understand dieseling isn't good . a small amount after a tune for a few to several dozen shots typically doesn't cause any real damage . but for a prolonged period or heavy dieseling it can cause damage to the piston seal and/or breach seal . it also throws off accuracy because FPS will vary greatly . just going by what i've read here .......
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Not talking about the dieseling you notice, But I remember reading something about a small amount normally occurring from very small amounts of lube on the walls. I'll have to look it up later.
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Not talking about the dieseling you notice, But I remember reading something about a small amount normally occurring from very small amounts of lube on the walls. I'll have to look it up later.
Yep true with "combusting lubes", however not so true when the R9 has been internally stripped of all "combusting lubes"!
I used only Krytox on ALL internal surfaces which (To ME) also disproves the theory that modern piston guns develop a large percentage of their velocity from combustion as I have read and "proven" by Cardew when shooting a HW35 with oil soaked leather piston seal and low velocities by modern day standards! I recently tuned my .177 R9 to shoot 8.4 grain 4.52mm JSB Exacts at 880fps using a 34 coil, .120 wire spring wound with a .540 ID and there is little/no residual "petro lubes" internally.
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My next question was whether you had a decrease in velocity if you had no chance of dieseling.
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My next question was whether you had a decrease in velocity if you had no chance of dieseling.
Yep.....as mentioned previously, about 10fps reduction.
When my brother switched from molly paste to dry graphite for lubing his R9 piston, piston seal, and receiver he got a similar reduction in velocity but gained a more consistent poi when the shooting sessions (or squirrel hunt) temps fluxuated more than 20 degrees. Obviously the mineral oil based molly paste was adding SOME "diesel boost", but the CPL velocity dropping from 910fps to 900fps wasn't an issue at all since there was a more consistent poi when shooting temps varied. I do have to mention that we both have been using my home turned oring sealed piston caps for years which helps with maintaining a consistent poi.
For the last few years I've been playing with my power levels from 11.5 to 13fpe so boosting my current power level to around 14fpe plus a bit last week using only non-combusting Krytox lubes internally has shown that I really don't NEED a "10fps diesel boost" for my style of shooting! Funny thing is that I always preferred a 12-13ish fpe power level because the R9 cocked easier, the shot cycle was a bit tamer, and I ASSUMED that the gun was easier to shoot accurately because of all this. Well....at least that's the claim of all those <12fpe pundits I've been reading lately. A couple days ago I took my R9 to my practice lane and found that my accuracy from 10 yards to 53 yards was actually very similar to when I was tuned to the 12-13ish fpe power level. Anywhoo....it remains to be seen if I stick to the higher tune level for my R9 and how my new Optisan Viper scope fares with the current tune level!
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Not to add anything else on springer lubrication, I have found it very beneficial to wear nitrile/latex gloves when working on springers as a way of avoiding direct contact of lubes from my skin. Not that I'm too totally worried about exposure,... But get a smear of moly or black tar on your hands and you'll find out they're not that easy to wash off ;)
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Question for nced- does your gun shoot noticeably flatter with the slight increase in power? Enough that you feel like it gives you a slight advantage?
Regarding the varying and opposing theories on deiseling, I don't know if you are 100% on the money. With the average mid-powered springer of today, a oil-soaked piston seal made of leather would result in violent detonation and extremely high, wildly fluctuating velocities and probably would break your spring within a tin of pellets. If you were lucky that is probably all that would happen, lol. But I do wonder, if your R9 currently running at 14.5 fpe was properly honed and lubed with superlube and moly paste per the guide from CDT, if it might shoot in the ballpark of 16 fpe. You would probably give up a little bit of accuracy in .177 because you are already at the top end of the sweet spot the way it shoots now. But in .20 or .22 it could potentially be an advantage. If the extra 1-1.5 fpe gives you a noticeable advantage in trajectory. Even an extra 5 yards would be nice insurance for hunting purposes. Obviously between 14-16 fpe there is very little to absolutely zero real advantage in knock down power, stretch it out to 50 yards and the energy levels will probably about identical on target, maybe an extra half an fpe on target with the 16 fpe gun. I have a .25 cal xs28m with a tune from Mike Melick, and althought they are typically a 22-23 fpe shooter in .25, after a few tins of pellets mine climbed to 27 fpe and it is pretty doggone accurate and shootable for such a powerful spring gun. Even after a couple thousand rounds down the pipe, it still smokes just a tiny little bit. I feel that one of the reasons it shoots so hard is because Mike has figured out that perfect balance of hone and lube, and that I am actually getting an extra 3-4 fpe purely out of perfectly balanced combustion. And in this case, that definitely yields little bit flatter trajectory and better impact at range. To be sure, I guess I'd have to clean the gun out and lube it with krytox, but I'm really not willing to do that because it is such an awesome rifle. I don't want to mess around much with what Mike has done. Just wanted to throw my own personal experience out there, for comparison...
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does your gun shoot noticeably flatter with the slight increase in power?
Nope! The difference is the fact that the gun is indeed less temperature sensitive with non-dieseling lubes!
if your R9 currently running at 14.5 fpe was properly honed and lubed with superlube and moly paste per the guide from CDT, if it might shoot in the ballpark of 16 fpe.
LOL.....now why would I want my R9 to shoot at 16fpe when my preferred power level is 13-14fpe? Keep in mind that SuperLube is simply a petro based lube with ptfe suspended particles. My question to you is.......will SuperLube "diesel violently" if you get a wad of it in front of the piston? If the gun diesels noticeably as I suspect it would then this alone is enough of an "issue" for me to stay clear of the stuff. Please review this MSDS (Material Data Safety Sheet):
http://www.super-lube.com/files/pdfs/SDS_SuperLube_%20Grease_EN.pdf (http://www.super-lube.com/files/pdfs/SDS_SuperLube_%20Grease_EN.pdf)
Here is a partial cut-n-paste showing some of it's ingredients......
Composition/information on ingredients
9002-84-0 Polytetrafluoroethylene 2.5-10%
Polypropylene Glycol ≤ 2.5%
9003-27-4 Polyisobutylene ≤2.5%
Chemical characterization: Mixtures Description:
Mixture of the substances listed below with nonhazardous additions.
Dangerous Components: 68611-44-9 Fumed Silica STOT SE 3, H335 2.5-10%
41484-35-9 Antioxidant Acute Tox. 3, H331 ≤2.5%
8042-47-5 Mineral Oil 10-25%
151006-63-2 Polyalphaolefin 50-100%
Please note Minerail oil content is 10-25% which is a rather large variation in this diesel prone ingredient. Anywhoo.....I PERSONALLY would prefer to go "old school" with mineral oil based molly lubes if I had a choice between the two! Do you really believe that simply lubing with a different minerial oil based lube than plain ole molly paste would increase my velocity 70fps from what I'm getting now? LOL...for decades I used molly paste as a lube and can indeed verify that my reduction in velocity using non-doeseling Krytox is only around 10fps which is insignificant and even environmental factors (like humidity and temperature) can/will give this amount of variation! You can easily test this out yourself by lubing your springer with "old school" molly paste and SuperLube and see if there is indeed a difference ASSUMING the SuperLube isn't migrating past the piston seal and dieseling.
Even after a couple thousand rounds down the pipe, it still smokes just a tiny little bit.
Hummm....this is a "feature" that I don't have and really don't want!
I feel that one of the reasons it shoots so hard
This is of ABSOLUTELY no import to my shooting since I can easily exceed my preferred muzzle velocity if I wanted WITHOUT "smoke in the hole"! I'm only interested in stability and consistency of the poi along with a useable trajectory! LOL.....I'm currently getting 880fpe with a 8.4 JSB Exact pellet using a spring with 34 coils of relatively thin .120 wire wound with a .540 coil ID using non-dieseling Krytox! Concerning stability........when I upped my JSB Exact velocity from 830fps to 880fps using a home rolled spring kit based on the mentioned .120 wire spring I chronied the velocity (how I knew it was 880fps). The R9 then sat un-shot for two days and then I chronied the very first shot and here was the result........
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/222015/1422048216_227757013_R91stShotJan232015.JPG) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=65261)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
The very next shot also measured 882fps.
Here is a recent 50 yard target I shot HFT style (sitting on a bucket resting the R9 on cross sticks) where 4 out of 5 Exacts went into a 3/8" ctc group and the second shot opening the group to 5/8" ctc...
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/3142014/1415743451_1738447830_50yardNov112014.JPG) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=61840)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
Here are a couple more "Krytox lubed R9 50 yard groups" using only Krytox lubes........
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2352014/1408920655_1975447583_KrytoxVAC50Y1_29_2013.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=56426)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
The next 5 shots on paper.......
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2362014/1408970392_1754303378_Windy50yGroup12_20_12.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=56429)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
10 shots in a row in a 3/8" ctc high x 1" wide group and I'm pretty certain that the "horizontal spread" of the shots has more to do with my sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks than anything else unless it was the light variable breeze the day I was shooting!
I'm personally pleased with my "un-honed but polished receiver ID with oiled 600 wet-or-dry abrasive, non-dieseling synthetic lube, and oring sealed piston. A few months ago I experimented with a new design factory HW piston seal in my "really smooth" receiver ID using Krytox and there was very little difference between the factory piston seal velocity and my oring sealed velocity even though the R9 receiver was set up for oring sealing (600 grit hone followed by a 000 steel wool buff). LOL.....I really don't know where the "requirement of the crosshatch" originated, but it certainly is one of the unspoken rules for tunes!
To be sure, I guess I'd have to clean the gun out and lube it with Krytox, but I'm really not willing to do that because it is such an awesome rifle. I don't want to mess around much with what Mike has done.
and
Just wanted to throw my own personal experience out there, for comparison...
Peace my friend!!!! No harm/no foul! Changing a lube scheme to Krytox isn't really a light matter to consider because Krytox requires a rather pricey solvent to strip if you ever want to remove the stuff! LOL....this feature alone is one reason I was drawn to it after experiencing the out-gassing of the minerial oil carrier in molly paste! Also, since Krytox is inert and won't combine with "dinosaur oil" it will leach residual "petro lubes" from minute nooks and crannies to mix with the Krytox and migrate past the piston seal. I notice this when I first started using Krytox in my R9 even though the receiver tube was stripped with brake cleaner and allowed to dry.........and at first it was a puzzle. While there was no dieseling however I would occasionally get a slight whiff of a strange smell with random shots. I broke down the R9 to find grey molly paste residue mixed with the white Krytox. I again stripped the receiver tube, relubed with Krytox and shot a box 1250 count box of CPLs, then broke the R9 down again for a "look-see" just for grins and again found a BIT of grey mixed with the white. Further inspection revealed this......
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2452014/1409768024_568136007_R9BrazeReceiver.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=56881)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
You can see voids in the braze joint between the receiver "fork and tube" where molly paste was driven deeply with the heat and pressure of 10s of thousands of shots!
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Not talking about the dieseling you notice, But I remember reading something about a small amount normally occurring from very small amounts of lube on the walls. I'll have to look it up later.
Yep true with "combusting lubes", however not so true when the R9 has been internally stripped of all "combusting lubes"!
I used only Krytox on ALL internal surfaces which (To ME) also disproves the theory that modern piston guns develop a large percentage of their velocity from combustion as I have read and "proven" by Cardew when shooting a HW35 with oil soaked leather piston seal and low velocities by modern day standards! I recently tuned my .177 R9 to shoot 8.4 grain 4.52mm JSB Exacts at 880fps using a 34 coil, .120 wire spring wound with a .540 ID and there is little/no residual "petro lubes" internally.
seems to me that since the dieseling couldn't be controlled that it would cause the FPS spread to be huge causing significant vertical stringing , kissing accuracy bye bye . FWICT ..... a little initial dieseling seems ok , significant or long term can cause damage to the power plant .
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nced- you missed it my friend. When I asked about your gun at 14.5 fpe I wasn't asking in regards to moly vs. krytox or whatever. I want to know if the extra 1.5 fpe you have in the current state of tune with no deiseling lubes yields a flatter trajectory. In regards to the question about a slight boost in power with a good moly based lube and proper hone, well if you read the whole thing I already alluded to how it's obviously not advantageous in a .177 that is already shooting in the sweet spot. In .20, or .22, it might make a difference. As far as temperature sensitivity goes, I'd like to see a comparison of them with no tar being used. Tar is the bane of springers in cold weather, not moly. Well, maybe it would be at sub-zero temps, but I'll probably never find out, lol.
D14Jeff- you obviously can't control dieseling by adding oil to the chamber directly or lubing pellets. It will never turn out the way you want it to. But there is a long and documented history of successfully using a honed cylinder wall in conjunction with moly in the right places, and my XS28M that still smokes a little bit keeps about an 11 fps extreme spread in the velocity with JSB Kings.