GTA
Target Shooting Matches, Discussion & Events => Target Shooting Discussion Gate => Topic started by: jglover on May 30, 2012, 10:39:18 PM
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Has anyone found a source for practice targets for the CMP National Match Air Rifle (NMAR) course of fire? The only source I've been able to find is CMP itself and I really do not want to spend the cash on 250 targets Orion compatible targets just to practice in the garage. Plus i do not have 10 meters available to me so I would need a target scaled for 25 feet. Looks like the closest I can find is the AR4 BB gun targets, which has a 0.68" black bull, or 1/2" dots which would have no scoring rings. If my calculations are correct, the bull size for the Ar-SR target at 25 feet should be 0.5417", which makes the AR4 target about 30% too large. I've also yet to find free NMAR targets.
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I've got a package of pistol targets that have a .450" 10 ring. They are marked "National Rifle Association 10 Meter Air Pistol Target", but if you would like them I would let them go cheap as I don't use them. There are four bulls per page. Each page is 14"x14". PM me if interested.
Stu
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I checked and I could not find the target specs (ring diameters) for both targets.
Once you get the specs, you can adjust for shorter range.
Maybe email CMP to get the target ring diameter specs.
Interesting program, but I think more for the high power guys.
The air guys already have 10m 3p programs.
And the standard 10m AR target is NOT an easy target.
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I've got a package of pistol targets that have a .450" 10 ring. They are marked "National Rifle Association 10 Meter Air Pistol Target", but if you would like them I would let them go cheap as I don't use them. There are four bulls per page. Each page is 14"x14". PM me if interested.
Stu
Thanks for the offer Stu but I have a couple of pads of those targets. I was trying to find a close equivalent of the AR-SR. The 0.54 inch bull on this target is the 9, 10 and x rings.
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I checked and I could not find the target specs (ring diameters) for both targets.
Once you get the specs, you can adjust for shorter range.
Maybe email CMP to get the target ring diameter specs.
Interesting program, but I think more for the high power guys.
The air guys already have 10m 3p programs.
And the standard 10m AR target is NOT an easy target.
Yep, this program is supposed to simulate high power on a short airgun course. I'd like to try it one day so was just hunting about for some targets so I cold same the $40 or so on the cost from CMP. I've looked at 3P courses of fire and I just cannot do the kneeling, sitting is much easier for me these days. :) Plus my local ranges run all sorts of high power matches and I'd like to try that one of these days, so NMAR looks like a nice way to train without a Garand.
I ran the standard high power SR target specs through a spreadsheet and here's the numbers I came up with:
Rings 10m 25 feet AR5
x 0.164" 0.125" 0.0197"
10 0.383" 0.292" 0.0197"
9 0.710" 0.542" 0.217"
8 1.039" 0.792" 0.414"
7 1.367" 1.042" 0.611"
6 1.695" 1.292" 0.808"
5 2.023" 1.542" 1.005"
The AR5 10m standard air rifle target is definitely a tougher target than the NMAR so perhaps that would be the best one to practice. The AR4 BB gun target is closer to what i need so i guess i'll stay with that one.
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I found the specs for the SR and MR targets. Then similar to what you did, I down scaled them to 10 meters.
However, I do not know if the NRA's NMAR targets are simply scaled down targets (easy to duplicate) or if they are adjusted for pellet size (more complicated). I sent an email to NRA asking for the target ring specs.
The next problem is a target generating/printing program.
I have Ian Pellant's target program, but that program will not generate a X ring, because it does not provide for an X ring, only rings 1-10. It could do an X ring, but the X ring would be labeled 10, and the 10 ring would be labeled 9, etc. That would be rather confusing to use, so I would print the targets w/o the X ring.
There is program called TargetGen which is an add-in for Chairgun. But I cannot figure out how to input target ring specs for targets that are not listed on its dropdown menu.
Anyone know of another target generating program?
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There are pictures of the targets in the CMP NMAR guidebook in Section 3.0 of the guidebook. The x ring on the SR target is just a dot in the center of the target so if your target generating program can generate a center dot, that would serve as an x ring. I'm new to all this so I appreciate the information on the target generation program. i may try to run the program and just generate up a target with no x ring just to see how it looks
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So far, I have not been able to find any other target generating program, other than the old Pellant program.
The problem is Ian Pellant's site is "gone" so finding that program can be difficult.
I have an old version, PM me your email and I will email it to you.
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I'm not sure what you are trying to make in the way of targets. I found this site, maybe this can help. I use it for fun targets.
www.mindflow.com.au/targets (http://www.mindflow.com.au/targets)
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The problem is Ian Pellant's site is "gone" so finding that program can be difficult.
I have an old version, PM me your email and I will email it to you.
Thanks, I was actually able to find version 7.5.2 of the Pellant program so i'm good there. i appreciate the offer though.
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This post:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,16628.msg142578.html#msg142578 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,16628.msg142578.html#msg142578)
gives some information target scaling to a different distance and caliber. I've loads of target templates. PM me with the specs on your reference target (outer ring edge to outer edge, shooting distance and caliber) and the new target (new distance and air rifle caliber, and bull layout per page, i.e. one bull, 5, 6, 12, etc.) and I'll be happy to generate a pdf you can print at home. Looks like you've give ring sizes above already, but might as well be sure they are measured outside edge to outside edge.
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Thanks for the link, very interesting. I did send a PM but basically the targets I'm looking for are 25 foot scaled down version of the 200 yard SR target and the 600 yd MR target. The ring diameters I calculated were just churned out on an Excel spreadsheet.
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Sent you a reply PM before I saw what ac12 is checking on. Let us know if/what you hear back from NRA ac12.
Be good to know if the bullet size on the original target (0.30"?) and distance and the pellet size at the reduced air rifle distance are accounted for in creating the 10 meter scaled air rifle targets. With that information, I have a spreadsheet that will scale targets from/to any distance and/or caliber and/or ring scoring (outside, inside or removal) change. Be easier if NRA provides the target specs, but they may not do that to help support their licensed target printer.
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No reply yet from the NRA.
I got the 200 and 600 yard ring specs, and downsized them. But as you mentioned, I have no idea if they took projectile diameter into consideration in the reduction or if the target was simply distance scaled down.
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I tried contacting CMP with the same question but have not yet heard a reply. Again, the SR and MR targets could be scaled for 30 cal or maybe for 223/5.56 but as for the reduced target, who knows at this point. It would make sense to me to do so. And, I never realized scaling a target was such a big deal!! ;D Thanks guys for the help!
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I've scaled the NRA high power rifle 200 Yard SR - Military “Target, Rifle, Competition, Short Range” and 600 Yard MR-1 "Target, Rifle, Competition Mid-Range" to both 10 meters and 25 feet for 4.5mm pellets. The scaled targets are attached with a 12 bull layout (two for sight in and ten for score).
Scaled scoring ring diameters calculated accounting for a reference target bullet hole size of 0.308" and a pellet hole size of 4.5mm on the reduced distance scaled 10 meter targets follow.
Calculated SR Ring (Diameter in mm) scaled for 10 meters and 4.5mm pellet:
X(0.09), 10(5.65), 9(13.98), 8(22.32), 7(30.65), 6(38.98), 5(47.32)
Calculated MR Ring (Diameter in mm) scaled for 10 meters and 4.5mm pellet:
10(1.20), 9(3.98), 8(6.75), 7(12.31), 6(17.86), 5(23.42), 4(28.98), 3(34.53)
These targets will score equivalent to their respective high power rifle targets, and therefore should also score the same as the NMAR targets. Note the reduced 600 yard MR target image presented in the CMP NMAR Guide appears to have been enlarged by approximately one third for illustrative purposes only, based on its poor image quality relative to the SR target image presented above it.
The scaled SR target black center was extended to the scoring ring nearest in diameter to the optically scaled SR black center for sighting purposes only, i.e., distance scaling only without accounting for bullet or pellet hole size. The scaled MR target black center was extended to retain two outer white rings, as on the reference NRA high power rifle MR target.
As a point of trivia, NRA high power rifle targets reduced for 100 yards are scaled using a reference bullet hole size of 0.308" even though they may be scored using caliber specific gauges. When reference targets to be scaled have very large scoring ring diameters relative to the reference bullet holes, which is rarely the case when starting with targets originally designed for air rifle use, the reference target hole size will have negligible impact on calculated scaled scoring ring diameters. However, pellet hole size always has a very significant impact on small calculated scaled scoring ring diameters.
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Edits:
Added 10 meter SR and MR scaled for 22 pellets
And small trap versions
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Thanks to RP for doing this!
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The CMP will be mailing me both targets, no specs.
As soon as I get the targets, I will measure the rings and post the ring dimensions here.
The limitation is that the dimensions will only be as good as I can measure them off the targets.
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Cool! Thanks for the update.
A ruler with mm marks should get you within plus or minus 0.25mm, plus or minus ;D If the SR measured rings match the calculated rings within that nebulous difference specification, I'd say we've confirmed the scaling technique. The smaller MR target rings will be harder to confirm with a ruler, but CMP indicates they are both scaled the same way, so confirm one, confirm the other?
Look forward to target arrival in your snail mail and the measurements. Be interesting to see if the MR target is as much smaller as scoring distance scaling would make it.
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Has anyone found a source for practice targets for the CMP National Match Air Rifle (NMAR) course of fire? The only source I've been able to find is CMP itself and I really do not want to spend the cash on 250 targets Orion compatible targets just to practice in the garage. Plus i do not have 10 meters available to me so I would need a target scaled for 25 feet. Looks like the closest I can find is the AR4 BB gun targets, which has a 0.68" black bull, or 1/2" dots which would have no scoring rings. If my calculations are correct, the bull size for the Ar-SR target at 25 feet should be 0.5417", which makes the AR4 target about 30% too large. I've also yet to find free NMAR targets.
I hope you can find what you are searching for. I have to question the need though because,
If you are wanting to be able to see how well you can score on these targets. A scaled version, shot
at a shorter distance is not going to help you much, if any at all. You are going to shoot
more accurately at the shorter distance. Your comparing one target to a completely different target.
Just as in the "reduced high power matches" yes, we are shooting reduced sized targets. Shooters
generally shoot higher scores on these targets than they do on the across the course matches.
I have never understood the hoo ha about scaling targets for different calibers.
High power has a 30 cal rule. the .223 guys shoots the same targets as the 30 cal guys
and as the 6mm guys and even old mike hoover over there shooting his 7mm mag bolt gun.
If your .223 round is close enough to be questioned, you take a .30 cal scoring plug gage with a .223
shaft on it and you score it.
You mentioned that you would be interested in shooting a high power match, and "practicing without
a Garand" If you are planning on practicing with a post front and rear aperture like on a Garand, trust me,
it does not matter what target you use to practice with.
If you can shoot at 25 feet or 50 feet it is not gonna matter. You are practicing your hold, sight picture,
breathing, trigger release, all the basics. (hopefully you are learning how to "call your shots" along the way)
Since most service rifle shooters use a 6:00 "punkin on a post" hold, THAT along with the basics is what
you will be practicing. Print out some 10 meter air rifle targets or some A-17 50 foot smallbore targets and
get shooting. The only thing that is going to change is your sight dope, and you have plenty of time at a match
to figure out what you need there.
Your still practicing to hold at the bottom of a black dot/circle, it does not matter how big or small
that circle is as long as you can see it.
Trust me, for longer than I have been on this planet, High Power shooters have been in their basements
shooting air rifle and smallbore targets at what ever distance they could muster
with their 10 meter air rifles to keep sharp during the winter months.
It worked for them, it will work for you.
If you are wanting to see how well you can score on a NMAR target,, print or buy some full size targets
and shoot them at the required distance. That is the only way you will actually see how you stack up.
You must compare apple to apples.
I sincerely hope you can get that Garand out and take it to a HP match, you will love it.
Our club has several "Garand only" matches throughout the year on the 100 yard reduced course.
Surplus CMP ammo is issued for these matches, it is a blast. (the only times I have gotten to shoot a
Garand)
Love that "ping" when they eject the spring clip on the last round in the rapid fire stages.
Have fun man. Now, let's go out and shoot.
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A scaled version, shot at a shorter distance is not going to help you much, if any at all. You are going to shoot more accurately at the shorter distance. Your comparing one target to a completely different target.
Just as in the "reduced high power matches" yes, we are shooting reduced sized targets. Shooters generally shoot higher scores on these targets than they do on the across the course matches.
There's wind and trajectory to dope going from a 100 yard reduced high power target to the unscaled 600 yard high power rifle target. I can appreciate how scores might improve a bit at 100 yards. But indoors, with no wind, shooting at 25 feet instead of 10 meters (33 feet)? At some point, minute of angle is minute of angle.
Scaled targets are fascimiles of the original that may score only approximately the same, but I do not agree that they are completely different targets. They have their place in helping one to shoot with the facilities one has. There are not a lot of 600 yard ranges. This is why the NRA high power matches offer the 100 yard reduced target options. Similiarly, not every air gunner can easily make a 10 meter range, but somewhere in the house or garage there may be a usable 25 feet, or 5 meter, shooting lane.
Sure, practice is practice. But a scaled target can add to the fun factor by giving shooters a reasonable approximation of what their scores would be shooting the real thing at the real distance, when they can't easily shoot the real thing at the real distance.
I have never understood the hoo ha about scaling targets for different calibers....
Convenience. Granted, at the cost of some confusion in selecting the right target. Inexpensive as they are, everyone does not have scoring devices. Everyone does have pellets and pellet holes. That said, I have an Eagle Eye scoring gauge on order now. Happy Birthday to me!
Also, when one goes down the dubious road of scaling targets to a very reduced distance, the scoring rings can get so small that just the difference between a 177 pellet and 22 pellet hole starts to become a significant fraction of the scoring distance for the small, high scoring rings. Adjusting ring sizes for caliber can make a significant difference at this point.
If you are wanting to see how well you can score on a NMAR target,, print or buy some full size targets and shoot them at the required distance. That is the only way you will actually see how you stack up. You must compare apple to apples.
If only we could print the real thing. I've taken a shot at figuring out the real thing and posted 10 meter and 25 feet versions in my posts above, but the official ring dimension specifications on these targets appear to be a closely guarded state secret. It will be interesting to see what ac12 measures. Of course there is always buying the real thing, but the OP was looking to avoid that.
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Your right, trajectory and wind does come in to effect in shooting at
600 yards, wind more than trajectory,
(that is where the term "matches are won on your feet, and lost on your belly" came from)
the angle of the sun and the mirage can also make the target appear higher than it actually is too.
(there has been way more "clean scores" fired in the 100 yard reduced matches than in the across the course
matches)
I personally still think it is a bunch of hoo ha. But that is OK,
while you folks are crunching numbers in spread sheets and sweating over
dimensions of scaled to caliber scoring rings, I will be practicing shooting holes as close to
the centers of black circles as I can.
I was merely trying to show jglover that you do not need the scaled
targets with adjusted scoring rings to get quality practice time.
As far as seeing how well you are shooting, if the holes are dangerously
close to the center of the circle, that pretty much tells you all you need to know.
No matter what size those circles are. When they are not, you have to analyze what you
are doing that is keeping them from getting there.
If you can do that in the shelter of an indoor 25 foot range, you can do it in the shelter of
an indoor 10 meter range. Although like you said, minute of angle is minute of angle, your
scores at 10 meters will more than likely not be as good as your 25 feet scores when the dropped
points are taken away.
Enjoy your shooting, it is supposed to be fun,, try not to take it too seriously, it is just a game.
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Trust me, for longer than I have been on this planet, High Power shooters have been in their basements
shooting air rifle and smallbore targets at what ever distance they could muster
with their 10 meter air rifles to keep sharp during the winter months.
It worked for them, it will work for you.
If you are wanting to see how well you can score on a NMAR target,, print or buy some full size targets
and shoot them at the required distance. That is the only way you will actually see how you stack up.
You must compare apple to apples.
Geez, all I was doing was lookin' for some scaled targets! :)
Seriously, I'd love to be able to shoot at the required distances all the time but I'm an hour or so from the nearest high power range and I've only got about 27 feet in my garage to shoot most of the time. I can't even go out into my yard here as I've discovered that firing an air rifle in my back yard is against the city codes here, so i'm limited to shooting indoors. Still you make do with what you have. The CMP NMAR competition caught my eye and I was just asking if any targets existed anywhere, as ac12 stated the dimensions of these targets do seem to be somewhat secretive. :)
Like you said, this is fun and to me, even fooling around with the spreadsheets and scaling and all the hoo ha associated with that actually does interest me as well, mainly I suppose because I'm a geeky engineer (befor i went too kollej i culdnt spel injunere, now i are wun).
Hopefully one of these days I'll get me a Garand. I've got a Mosin but can't hit the broad side of a barn at the moment. But even shooting with NMAR targets does give the practice I need to work on the basics as you said; sight picture, hold, trigger control etc. Minus the recoil of course.......
My dad carried an M1 carbine along with his 1911 with him all through Korea and Vietnam and he shot expert with both at every qualification, so I hopefully have the genes to do it as well as he did!
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Was not trying to offend anyone, just wanted folks to realize it does not
really matter what you are shooting at or what distance you are shooting.
The mechanics of shooting are the same.
When I first started shooting competitively, I visited a local rifle & pistol club
towards the end of their outdoor summer season. Within a month, they moved
back to their indoor 50 foot range for the winter season. Shot 3p smallbore every
thursday night. (since most there were high power shooters, they shot sitting instead of kneeling)
Would meet with a couple of guys during the week to shoot 40 to 60 rounds for practice.
A couple of the guys kept telling me I needed to come out and shoot high power with them.
All I had was my smallbore rifle and my shooting coat. They kept telling me they had everything
I needed, just come out and shoot.
The following spring I did. One of the guys let me shoot his AR. I had done nothing to "prepare"
for this match, just showed up. Since it was a 100 yard reduced match, they
allowed a 10 minute sight in period before the standing stage started.
I fired 6 sighter shots, those were the first rounds I ever fired from an AR.
So much for preparing.
I shot a 451 of 500 possible that day. Was I happy with that? Not really. Those friends from
the club there supporting me were pretty happy though. They said, "That's 90%, that will get you
an expert card if you can keep it up" (you shoot with a temporary card until you fire the required
240 rounds for record and then receive an official classification card from the NRA)
When I shot my first across the course match, my average did drop, had trouble at 600 yards.
But by the time I got the 240 rounds in, I had managed to bring it back up and received my expert card.
My point is, I did not go out and shoot hundreds of rounds from an AR or shoot at the high power targets
before I went to shoot a match.
I simply shot allot, and paid attention to what was going on while I was doing it.
I hope you find what you are looking for, and I hope you can shoot in a high power match some day.
Should any local club decide to start holding NMAR matches. You have the option of shooting in "Match"
or "Sporter" class if you have a 10 meter air rifle. You do not need to use the AR look alike to compete.
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No offense taken Bill, I understand where you are coming from. I've just recently starting in shooting again in the last year and have been trying to find something I can shoot easily and relatively inexpensively to start. Air guns and smallbore is sort of where my interests lie at the moment but high power definitely appeals to me, especially the as issued service rifles. Conventional pistol is also an area I want to try. It'll be a bit before I get there with the high power stuff, but I've been using my air guns to sort of fill the gap.
I'd love to find someone who runs NMAR matches locally but the closest I can seem to find is Camp Perry at the moment. Almost all the air gun comps around here that I've been able to locate are ISSF olympic pistol and rifle or junior 3p. But I'm still enjoying shooting my limited garage range! :)
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I got the targets and here are the measurements, as best as I could measure them.
I used a magnifying glass to make the measurements as accurate as I could.
column 1 = ring #
column 2 = diameter, mm, measured w a ruler (accuracy no better than 1/2mm)
column 3 = diameter, inches, measured w a dial caliper
note, My practical measuring accuracy is .005 but more like .010
so do not let the 3 decimal places fool you. I can't measure that
accurately.
column 4 = diameter, mm, column 3 x 25.4 (mm/in)
column 4 should be close to column 2
ring mm in conv mm
ARSR - 200 yard reduced range target
X 0.5 0.015 0.4
10 5.5 0.210 5.3
9 13.5 0.540 13.7
8 22.0 0.875 22.2
7 30.5 1.205 30.6
6 39.0 1.530 38.9
5 47.0 1.860 47.2
ARMR - 600 yard reduced range target
10 1.0 0.045 1.1
9 3.5 0.150 3.8
8 6.5 0.260 6.6
7 12.0 0.480 12.2
6 17.5 0.700 17.8
5 23.0 0.920 23.4
4 29.0 1.140 29.0
3 34.5 1.355 34.4
Trying to get the columns to line up is PIA.
(edited)
I remeasured more targets and and corrected some of the numbers.
Usually going up by .005 or .010.
Again, my error of measurement is approximately .005
It is hard to place the caliper just on the outside edge of the lines.
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Thank you for that ac12. That is a lot of precise measuring work. And I likewise took no offense at all in a great exchange of ideas. For the record, Bill's right. I find the spreadsheet work way too amusing, and know in my heart I should just go shoot ;D
The diameters of these rings are so small it is a challenge to measure with enough precision to obtain 3 or 4 significant figures. Another approach is to use photo editing software to count the number of pixels inside a scoring ring, including the scoring ring line thickness, from a high resolution target scan. The diameter of the outside edge of the scoring ring is that of a circle with the same area as the total for the square pixels. This averages out the choppiness of circles drawn with square pixels (albeit very, very small square pixels), provides the average ring diameter measured across every possible location, and the large number of pixels provides more significant figures.
ac12 was kind enough to send me targets so I could give this alternate approach a try. Measured ring diameters based on counting 600 DPI pixels follow. The ring diameters include the thickness of the scoring ring lines, i.e., the diameters are from the outside edge of the scoring ring line to the opposite outside edge of the scoring ring line.
SR Ring (Diameter in mm):
X(0.32), 10(5.47), 9(13.82), 8(22.32), 7(30.62), 6(38.95), 5(47.28)
MR Ring (Diameter in mm):
10(1.09), 9(3.86), 8(6.63), 7(12.21), 6(17.77), 5(23.49), 4(29.04), 3(34.60)
Using the same approach, the thicknesses of the scoring ring lines on both targets measure 0.10 mm thick inside the black bull, and 0.16mm thick outside the black bull.
So there you have it. Independent confirmation that ac12 can measure as good as a computer, or vice-versa!
For the higher scoring rings inside the black bull of both SR and MR targets, and ignoring the SR "X" ring for a moment, these measured dimensions are ~0.2mm smaller on the SR target and ~0.1mm smaller on the MR target than the ring sizes I calculated by scaling the 200 yard and 600 yard targets based on 0.308" bullet holes in the reference 200 and 600 yard targets, and 4.5mm pellet size holes in the 10 meter 177 caliber targets. Not bad at all, but still slightly more difference than I expected, and in a direction that is very slightly less challenging.
Perhaps the reduced NMAR SR target rings inside the black bull were made very slightly more challenging to compensate, in part, for things Bill mentioned can happen to bullets from 10 meters to 200 or 600 yards, but do not at 10 meters, by scaling these rings based on 4.5mm bullet holes in the reference 200 yard high power rifle target, instead of 0.308” holes. And consistent with this approach, perhaps the NMAR MR rings inside the bull were scaled based on 200/600*4.5mm, or 1.5mm bullet holes in the reference 600 yard target. Reduced 10 meter target ring diameters calculated based on this conjecture would essentially eliminate the very small differences noted above. Or maybe the rings inside the black bulls measured smaller because the ink bled in a little bit! Truly, the agreement is so close it is a hair splitting exercise.
Regarding the SR "X" ring, I calculated a scaled diameter at 10 meters for 4.5mm pellets of 0.09mm, so that is the dimension I listed on the targets I posted. Only because I had to, I cheated when I defined this ring in drawing software. If I did not define the ring to be 0.4mm in the drawing software, speaking of ink bleeding, it could not be seen when the target was printed on card stock. Scoring on a 0.09mm ring at 10 meters is equivalent to a 1.6 MOA group, and on a 0.4mm ring it is equivalent to a 1.7 MOA group. I think we can safely ignore both that 0.31mm difference, and the 0.1mm to 0.2mm differences noted above. It appears the CMP made a similiar "X" ring decision, and also slightly increased the diameter of the "X" ring so that it could be seen.
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I used a training target where all you have is the black bull, NO RINGS.
The idea is to train yourself to shoot the black and forget about scores.
Your eye can see how well you group, and your eye can also tell you how centered the group is.
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Understood. I was letting the third decimal place fool me. I don't plan on revising the targets for a few tenths of a mm in any case. They will remain scaled assuming 0.308" holes in the original targets, and pellet sized holes in the scaled targets.
Safe to say, we now understand the NMAR targets as near as they can be measured or printed.
Thanks again for the measurements!
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The good thing about this exercise is, now I have the ring dimensions to put into my Pellant target program, so I can duplicate the targets to fit my smaller trap.
BTW, the regulation ISSF 10m AR target is HARDER than the AR-SR 200yd target, but not as hard as the AR-MR 600yd target (except for the 10 ring which is smaller on the ISSF target).
5 ring size on
ISSF target = 25.5mm
NMAR SR = 47.2
NMAR MR = 23.4
8 ring size
ISSF target = 10.5 mm
NMAR SR = 22.2
NMAR MR = 6.6