GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => Turkish AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Tarheel on May 10, 2012, 07:12:31 PM
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Gene has installed and tested on of JOAO's American Arms gas ram conversions in a Hatsan 125 Sniper in .22 caliber.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,30447.msg280898.html#msg280898 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,30447.msg280898.html#msg280898)
940 fps w / 14.3 gr = 28.06 fpe
832 fps w / 18.1 gr = 27.83 fpe
10 fps less than the stock spring and 35 - 40 fps faster than the Moeller "Red" gas ram w/ an Average Force of 197 lb . . . Now, we have a "baseline to compare the Moeller "Yellow" gas ram to w / an Average Force of 253.5 lb .
I don't know the extent of tuning that Gene did to the rifle, other than de-burring & cross-hatching, but the numbers are valid for comparison.
NOTE: The parts, "as delivered" did not fit and required custom machining by Gene to make the conversion kit work.
Dave
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That velocity is about what I get with my XL gas spring in the WFH....today I consistently got 961fps...or 29.3fpe with 14.3gr CPHPs. Different sized compression chamber and swept volume?
Mark
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Wonder how that will translate to the .25 cal.? I'm in the 800-804 range with 19.9 gr. H&N FT pellets,stock out the Hatsan box. My rifle was also picked and chronyed by PA and their figures match mine.
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That velocity is about what I get with my XL gas spring in the WFH....today I consistently got 961fps...or 29.3fpe with 14.3gr CPHPs. Different sized compression chamber and swept volume?
Mark
The Bore is 29mm and the Stroke is 120mm in all Hatsan 125's . . . 30mm diameter x 120mm stroke in the 135.
Dave
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Wonder how that will translate to the .25 cal.? I'm in the 800-804 range with 19.9 gr. H&N FT pellets,stock out the Hatsan box. My rifle was also picked and chronyed by PA and their figures match mine.
800 - 804 fps w /19.9 gr pellets = 28.29 - 28.57 fpe
Gene reported a 15 - 20 fps drop with Joao's kit, compared to the stock spring . . .
If a "ballpark" 15-20 fps drop is used, an 802 fps average velocity becomes a 782 - 787 fps w / 19.9 gr pellets = 27.03 - 27.37 fpe
The Moeller "Yellow" gas ram should increase performance by a "hypothetical" 14% over the "Red" gas ram . . . We need to include the drop in velocity from the stock spring when using the "Red" gas ram, as a basis for comparison . . .
Using a "theoretical" 14% increase in velocity from "Red" numbers, the new velocity with the "Yellow" gas ram in a .25 would be 863 - 868 fps w / 19.9 gr. pellets = 32.92 - 33.30 fpe . . .
Remember, this is STRICTLY "hypothetical" and only for "guesstimation" purposes . . .
Dave
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Would you get the same results with the trail ram in a 125 sniper?
That velocity is about what I get with my XL gas spring in the WFH....today I consistently got 961fps...or 29.3fpe with 14.3gr CPHPs. Different sized compression chamber and swept volume?
Mark
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Would you get the same results with the trail ram in a 125 sniper?That velocity is about what I get with my XL gas spring in the WFH....today I consistently got 961fps...or 29.3fpe with 14.3gr CPHPs. Different sized compression chamber and swept volume?
Mark
Assuming the rifles were identical, the XL gas ram would provide a 20 fps "edge" over Joao's gas ram, but we have to remember that Mark had other work done to his rifle . . .
Probably, a "toss-up" in the "real world" . . .
However, that extra 21 fps would provide an additional 1.27 fpe w / 4.3 gr pellets over Joao's gas ram numbers, making them 961 fps = 29.33 fpe w / 14.3 gr pellets and 853 fps = 32.16 fpe w / 19.9 gr pellets.
Just "hypothetical numbers" . . .
Dave
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The XL rams are not quite as consistent as they should be, I think you'll have a more consistent result from the other rams as a result of better quality control. Manufacturers of industrial gas rams are probably used to being held accountable for inconsistencies in the amount of force generated by a ram, and it's effect on machinery vs. the crosman nitro piston, which goes in a crosman gun and all the end point consumer knows is that he's got a hammer of an airgun- probably not going to check the force of the ram. But i'm only speculating on the industrial rams. I could be off by a mile...
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The XL rams are not quite as consistent as they should be, I think you'll have a more consistent result from the other rams as a result of better quality control. Manufacturers of industrial gas rams are probably used to being held accountable for inconsistencies in the amount of force generated by a ram, and it's effect on machinery vs. the crosman nitro piston, which goes in a crosman gun and all the end point consumer knows is that he's got a hammer of an airgun- probably not going to check the force of the ram. But i'm only speculating on the industrial rams. I could be off by a mile...
Bryan,
Nope, I think you are "right on target" about commercial Nitrogen Gas Springs . . .
Dave
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Moller needs to come out with a rel-low spring. One that is between the red and the yellow for just us airgunners. Then if they can get it into the Crossman price range that would be real nice.
I'd be fine with the crossman fps and fpe, sounds good to me if they last.
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Moller needs to come out with a rel-low spring. One that is between the red and the yellow for just us airgunners. Then if they can get it into the Crossman price range that would be real nice.
I'd be fine with the crossman fps and fpe, sounds good to me if they last.
All of the Nitrogen Gas Springs are adjustable in pressure . . . Get a high-pressure gas ram and "bleed off" pressure until it is lowered to the desired level.
If you go too low, you have to send it back to the manufacturer to have it re-pressurized, unless you have the necessary equipment to handle Nitrogen and pump it up over 2600 psi ( 180 bar )
Dave
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Crosman rams are not adjustable to my knowledge. The XL ram, If I received the correct ram is 1/4 shorter on the barrel and the shortness on the shaft. You need to remember I bought one of the WFH from PA a year a go with the nitro installed and after all the hype of the fire blazing withthe HATSAN have dis assembled the the gun and stripped it of the conversion. The WFH ram is not the XL. So I have 1 version of the conversion in my hands. It is proved that one can make the XL work and work safe. I can at will test the difference of the 2 rams in load carrying.
In the WFH, the gun was consistant and a gun I could grab and shoot with no issues at all. Yes the RE-BRANDED USA HATSAN, THE WALTHER!!!! EVEN AFTER A BARREL MISHAP AND A CHOP JOB THE GUN WAS STILL A KEEPER. SO THE CONVERSION HYPE HITS. i PULL THE GUN A PART AND STRIP THE RAM AND PUT THE SPRING BACK IN. Now the gun puts out more FPS but is a hand full. GUN IS ON BUT NOT A TAME GUN. So the ram helps remove the torquing,twisting and recoil with loss of FPS. As we all know speed is not always good FOR ACCURATENCY.
I am glad THAT GENE has stepped in on the conversion. As a MODERATER OF THE FORUM AND A MODDER IN THE HOBBY: He can be of help in this conversion with the main thing we need to remember SAFETY. Yes it is a given he is not going to want a maximum limitation exceeded on any mod. LIABILITY!!! RESPONSIBLITY!!!SAFETY!!!!
Maxing out anything is pushing THE safety concern and the life of what ever you are testing. Example: In my SUPERCHARGED trk I could turn more RPM'S get more HP at the rear wheels THUS MAKING THE TRK MUCH MORE QUICKER. But it is not safe for all the componets in the drivetrain.
Yes this is the same on the guns. 25 fps more in comparison to 1000 RPMS AND 25 more HP. But how long will it last. My tuner will not give me the extra 1000 RPMS for the same reason GENE WILL NOT. LIABILITY!!! RESPONSIBLITY!!!SAFETY!!!!
So there are two sides of SAFETY. Safety for your health and being and safety for the product lasting. Well so much for the SOAP BOX start of the day
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Yes I am back on the soap box!! I just thought about one more thing:
Being in a dangerous line of work, BEING A SAFETY and QC MANAGER, I am responsible for the life's of many people. My goal is to send everone home as they came to work. General industry and construction standards have different OSHA GUIDELINES. OSHA REGULATIONS AND STANDARDS ARE DIFFERENT FOR BOTH. OSHA regulations are witten in BLOOD. Someone has either been injured or killed resulting in a new safety guideline. All manufactures have warnings to not exceed manufactures recognitions. Again: SAFETY, LIABILITY AND THE LIFE OF THE PRODUCT. Anytime you exceed the warning you are assuming all of this at your own RISK. So as it is the things we do and share are great but it is not a given that the result will be the same for the next.
Joa has GENE testing or blessing his conversion for more reasons than meets the eye. As I look at 3 guns sitting on my patio loaded the last thing I want is for one to go off even with the SAFETY ON. As I have mentioned in many post; STORED ENERGY OF ANY TYPE IS NOT TO BE TAKEN FOR GRANIT!!!Safety should never sleep because danger lurks at all times NEVER SLEEPING and is around ever corner just wainting on the prime time to strike.
Sorry to bore you and the rant!!!
Please just think a little about what I have shared with all of you on the SAFETY topic and lets all use good judgement in our actions with these MODS and the air guns. These are not RED RIDERS and you can shoot your eye out.
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All of the Nitrogen Gas Springs are adjustable in pressure . . . Get a high-pressure gas ram and "bleed off" pressure until it is lowered to the desired level.
If you go too low, you have to send it back to the manufacturer to have it re-pressurized, unless you have the necessary equipment to handle Nitrogen and pump it up over 2600 psi ( 180 bar )
Dave
Whitefang makes an EXCELLENT point. SAFETY is concern #1 on GTA. DO NOT tamper with a nitrogen piston unless you have the specific equipment and the training to service them. DO NOT attempt to open, purge or adjust the contents of a nitrogen filled device!!!! PERIOD!!!!
Order the pressure you want and leave it at that. If you need a different pressure, order it filled to your specs.
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I plan on my collection having representations from different aspects of the air gun hobby. High quality springers, clones, pumpers, PCP, ect, you get the idea. I also plan on having a modified and max power category. To that end, I'm sure I'll have a couple that are past ridiculous speed, and well into "ludicrous speed!". They may not be the most reliable or accurate once I have em, but they'll be great for shocking anyone who wants to try out one of my "BB" guns lol. Safety, sure it's critically important. Modifying your personal AG's is all about personal responsibility, no one to blame but yourself if you send a spring through the wall or your head, so you'd better be sure of what you're doing. Start working on others before you truly understand what's going on though, you're on pretty shaky ground.
These are not firearms, but the same rules and level of diligence applies. Protect others above all else, and yourself next. Personally, I am deliberately taking my time working up to more complex tuning and modifications, simply because if you skip the steps between simple cleaning/lubing and all out custom fabrication, you are skipping all the hands on experience and lessons that come with it. There are too many nuances, tricks, manufacturer deviations within same models, to simply assume what you read or see others do will be sufficient. Not to mention the need to fully understand tolerances, metal properties, safety margins etc.
Nope, I'll wait until I have the confidence in my skills before I start putting AG's to the limit. Which will be around next week lol :P J/K
That said.....
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Dez is right as is Paul68 and WhiteFang. Gene and I have been following this pretty closely, discussed it several times and are greatly concerned about safety factors and how it may affect members safety.
Just because Gene installed and tested one does not make it something to not be concerned about and was not his intent. The testing was nothing more than comparable differences with the ram provided and a spring as well as the modifications needed to make a conversion kit and not safety related and did not include long term field testing or making "adjustments" to rams. Do not make Gene's testing more than what it is.
This thread and all related threads are sitting on the fence and may be moved or perhaps even deleted in the not to distant future. We'll see what happens and how this progresses but we do have great safety concerns, especially when it comes to the membership.
CDT
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I found the XL ram was about 1/8 inch longer than the N-Forcer yellow 120mm. I went away from the N-forcer yellow as it did not improve the fpe by much, and was very difficult to cock...and places much higher pressures on the trigger components, and on the stock when cocking. As I am now getting about the same (+/- .5fpe) with the XL gas spring compared to the stock spring, I am happy with it for the much tamer and consistent shot cycle.
The N-Forcer gas spring got me about 2.5-3 fpe more, but, as I am approaching the age of 60, I found it extremely difficult to cock and not worth the effort to gain the couple of extra fpe. I found the cylinder hone, JM seal, polishing, deburring and proper lubrication improved the stock spring performance by about 1fpe. It did quiet it down some, but not as much as topping off the tune with the conversion to the XL piston. I am not afraid to leave the gun cocked for short periods of time with the XL piston. I was very wary and did not feel comfortable doing that with the N-Forcer installed.
If you are going to experiment, IMHO, you have to consider the power versus shooting pleasure and ease balance.
Just my $.02
Mark
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+1 Mark
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I found the XL ram was about 1/8 inch longer than the N-Forcer yellow 120mm. I went away from the N-forcer yellow as it did not improve the fpe by much, and was very difficult to cock...and places much higher pressures on the trigger components, and on the stock when cocking. As I am now getting about the same (+/- .5fpe) with the XL gas spring compared to the stock spring, I am happy with it for the much tamer and consistent shot cycle.
The N-Forcer gas spring got me about 2.5-3 fpe more, but, as I am approaching the age of 60, I found it extremely difficult to cock and not worth the effort to gain the couple of extra fpe. I found the cylinder hone, JM seal, polishing, deburring and proper lubrication improved the stock spring performance by about 1fpe. It did quiet it down some, but not as much as topping off the tune with the conversion to the XL piston. I am not afraid to leave the gun cocked for short periods of time with the XL piston. I was very wary and did not feel comfortable doing that with the N-Forcer installed.
If you are going to experiment, IMHO, you have to consider the power versus shooting pleasure and ease balance.
Just my $.02
Mark
So far different gas rams have been tested for cocking, and what power it produces,the moller yellow is next, the red was not bad, the cocking equaled the same as the wfh with its main spring producing 900 fps in a .22 using 14.3 grn pellet.
Common sense tell us if the wfh or sniper in .22 gets 950 fps with its main spring ,then we can choose to adjust the moller yellow to the same fps or a little higher.
950 fps is a very sweet spot,and 980 may be just the same, now it will come down to the over all cocking,the moller red was on par with the cocking effort of the stock Walter falcon hunter, the yellow moller ram should prove to be just a little more, either way the better news is that it is adjustable, and can be suited to individual preference.
So far the price on the moller was 60.00 plus shipping cost, Mark was fine with his Xl piston and he can buy two Xl pistons for the price of one, so it is buyers choice,and buyers choice is always a good thing!
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The XL rams are not quite as consistent as they should be, I think you'll have a more consistent result from the other rams as a result of better quality control. Manufacturers of industrial gas rams are probably used to being held accountable for inconsistencies in the amount of force generated by a ram, and it's effect on machinery vs. the crosman nitro piston, which goes in a crosman gun and all the end point consumer knows is that he's got a hammer of an airgun- probably not going to check the force of the ram. But i'm only speculating on the industrial rams. I could be off by a mile...
I think you are right as well, common sense we know how the world works, that's a valid point.
There is nothing wrong with seeking the best results for overall performance,there is something wrong when you are treated like you are a idiot and posess no working knowledge because of greed ! >:(
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All of the Nitrogen Gas Springs are adjustable in pressure . . . Get a high-pressure gas ram and "bleed off" pressure until it is lowered to the desired level.
If you go too low, you have to send it back to the manufacturer to have it re-pressurized, unless you have the necessary equipment to handle Nitrogen and pump it up over 2600 psi ( 180 bar )
Dave
Whitefang makes an EXCELLENT point. SAFETY is concern #1 on GTA. DO NOT tamper with a nitrogen piston unless you have the specific equipment and the training to service them. DO NOT attempt to open, purge or adjust the contents of a nitrogen filled device!!!! PERIOD!!!!
Order the pressure you want and leave it at that. If you need a different pressure, order it filled to your specs.
I spoke to the main teck at moller,personally and they sell the degassing tool, it screws in has a built in stem to press against the needle valve,the moller ram has a typical shrader type air valve.
I asked him if they place the rams under water and slowly let the gas out so they can see tiny bubbles, he said yes that's exactly what they do.
I asked him also about the plug size, and thread pitch, so that they can be plugged off so dibree can not enter the valve, and the valve cant leak.
he gave me that info as well The thread is a M6 X 1.
I asked the teck how good are the needle valves on the moller rams, he said it is best to make your adjustment slowly and under water to watch for your bubble size, then seal them off, and leave them alone.
If any one decides to go with that particular ram, order it to your liking,then Teflon your hex nut recessed plug, install, and leave it alone.
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Yes I am back on the soap box!! I just thought about one more thing:
Being in a dangerous line of work, BEING A SAFETY and QC MANAGER, I am responsible for the life's of many people. My goal is to send everone home as they came to work. General industry and construction standards have different OSHA GUIDELINES. OSHA REGULATIONS AND STANDARDS ARE DIFFERENT FOR BOTH. OSHA regulations are witten in BLOOD. Someone has either been injured or killed resulting in a new safety guideline. All manufactures have warnings to not exceed manufactures recognitions. Again: SAFETY, LIABILITY AND THE LIFE OF THE PRODUCT. Anytime you exceed the warning you are assuming all of this at your own RISK. So as it is the things we do and share are great but it is not a given that the result will be the same for the next.
Joa has GENE testing or blessing his conversion for more reasons than meets the eye. As I look at 3 guns sitting on my patio loaded the last thing I want is for one to go off even with the SAFETY ON. As I have mentioned in many post; STORED ENERGY OF ANY TYPE IS NOT TO BE TAKEN FOR GRANIT!!!Safety should never sleep because danger lurks at all times NEVER SLEEPING and is around ever corner just wainting on the prime time to strike.
Sorry to bore you and the rant!!!
Please just think a little about what I have shared with all of you on the SAFETY topic and lets all use good judgement in our actions with these MODS and the air guns. These are not RED RIDERS and you can shoot your eye out.
I have worked for over 35 yrs in the commercial , industrial world of plumbing and heating, Big , new facilities ,from the ground up, concrete stressed floor being craned into position like domino's, block walls going up, pipes going in all on schedule, big boiler sections being winched into position, etc.. I never seen or met a top notch worker or A-1 mechanic get hurt, because those types are safety conscious people, and are keen of there work environment, as well as on the ball.
I have seen guys in the field who were just there to put in there eight hrs, get hurt from time to time, needlessly, because they were not watching where they were going , took two ladder step instead of one, stupid things like that.
Bottom line is you either know what your doing or you dont, no one is redesigning anything here. The power plant is being changed from one source to another, and with in the power limits of the original spring getting 950 fps with a springer is pretty darn good in a .22, if you wound up with 980. your still good.
I dont care if you have a spring loaded suction cup dart gun, you need to be safety conscious.
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Crosman rams are not adjustable to my knowledge. The XL ram, If I received the correct ram is 1/4 shorter on the barrel and the shortness on the shaft. You need to remember I bought one of the WFH from PA a year a go with the nitro installed and after all the hype of the fire blazing withthe HATSAN have dis assembled the the gun and stripped it of the conversion. The WFH ram is not the XL. So I have 1 version of the conversion in my hands. It is proved that one can make the XL work and work safe. I can at will test the difference of the 2 rams in load carrying.
In the WFH, the gun was consistant and a gun I could grab and shoot with no issues at all. Yes the RE-BRANDED USA HATSAN, THE WALTHER!!!! EVEN AFTER A BARREL MISHAP AND A CHOP JOB THE GUN WAS STILL A KEEPER. SO THE CONVERSION HYPE HITS. i PULL THE GUN A PART AND STRIP THE RAM AND PUT THE SPRING BACK IN. Now the gun puts out more FPS but is a hand full. GUN IS ON BUT NOT A TAME GUN. So the ram helps remove the torquing,twisting and recoil with loss of FPS. As we all know speed is not always good FOR ACCURATENCY.
I am glad THAT GENE has stepped in on the conversion. As a MODERATER OF THE FORUM AND A MODDER IN THE HOBBY: He can be of help in this conversion with the main thing we need to remember SAFETY. Yes it is a given he is not going to want a maximum limitation exceeded on any mod. LIABILITY!!! RESPONSIBLITY!!!SAFETY!!!!
Maxing out anything is pushing THE safety concern and the life of what ever you are testing. Example: In my SUPERCHARGED trk I could turn more RPM'S get more HP at the rear wheels THUS MAKING THE TRK MUCH MORE QUICKER. But it is not safe for all the componets in the drivetrain.
Yes this is the same on the guns. 25 fps more in comparison to 1000 RPMS AND 25 more HP. But how long will it last. My tuner will not give me the extra 1000 RPMS for the same reason GENE WILL NOT. LIABILITY!!! RESPONSIBLITY!!!SAFETY!!!!
So there are two sides of SAFETY. Safety for your health and being and safety for the product lasting. Well so much for the SOAP BOX start of the day
I dont know what rams your talking about that would exceed the limitations,
What members have done so far was to see what the cocking effort , and fps with different calibers, while using the correct stroke gas ram for there testing, namely a 100,and a 125.
the enforcer has been eliminated, because of it not being the easiest to cock.
The Xl has been tested with good to moderate results,, the moller red, with good to moderate result of 900 fps in a .22
Now the moller yellow is next, I dont see anything going over and beyond the limitations, no different if you used premium gasoline, with a better carburetor with the best spark plug wires.
Lets bring it back to what it is, your not re boring the engine, your tuning it up''big difference.
and all with in its own design and limitation. In a .22 caliber we know the sweet spot is around 950 fps, we know that anything over 1,000 creates instability in the pellets flight. The results then we would want to see would be from 900 fps to 980 fps in a .22, anything way beyond that is defeating the purpose and I would regard as ridicules,
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Crosman rams are not adjustable to my knowledge. The XL ram, If I received the correct ram is 1/4 shorter on the barrel and the shortness on the shaft. You need to remember I bought one of the WFH from PA a year a go with the nitro installed and after all the hype of the fire blazing withthe HATSAN have dis assembled the the gun and stripped it of the conversion. The WFH ram is not the XL. So I have 1 version of the conversion in my hands. It is proved that one can make the XL work and work safe. I can at will test the difference of the 2 rams in load carrying.
In the WFH, the gun was consistant and a gun I could grab and shoot with no issues at all. Yes the RE-BRANDED USA HATSAN, THE WALTHER!!!! EVEN AFTER A BARREL MISHAP AND A CHOP JOB THE GUN WAS STILL A KEEPER. SO THE CONVERSION HYPE HITS. i PULL THE GUN A PART AND STRIP THE RAM AND PUT THE SPRING BACK IN. Now the gun puts out more FPS but is a hand full. GUN IS ON BUT NOT A TAME GUN. So the ram helps remove the torquing,twisting and recoil with loss of FPS. As we all know speed is not always good FOR ACCURATENCY.
I am glad THAT GENE has stepped in on the conversion. As a MODERATER OF THE FORUM AND A MODDER IN THE HOBBY: He can be of help in this conversion with the main thing we need to remember SAFETY. Yes it is a given he is not going to want a maximum limitation exceeded on any mod. LIABILITY!!! RESPONSIBLITY!!!SAFETY!!!!
Maxing out anything is pushing THE safety concern and the life of what ever you are testing. Example: In my SUPERCHARGED trk I could turn more RPM'S get more HP at the rear wheels THUS MAKING THE TRK MUCH MORE QUICKER. But it is not safe for all the componets in the drivetrain.
Yes this is the same on the guns. 25 fps more in comparison to 1000 RPMS AND 25 more HP. But how long will it last. My tuner will not give me the extra 1000 RPMS for the same reason GENE WILL NOT. LIABILITY!!! RESPONSIBLITY!!!SAFETY!!!!
So there are two sides of SAFETY. Safety for your health and being and safety for the product lasting. Well so much for the SOAP BOX start of the day
I dont know what rams your talking about that would exceed the limitations,
What members have done so far was to see what the cocking effort , and fps with different calibers, while using the correct stroke gas ram for there testing, namely a 100,and a 125.
the enforcer has been eliminated, because of it not being the easiest to cock.
The Xl has been tested with good to moderate results,, the moller red, with good to moderate result of 900 fps in a .22
Now the moller yellow is next, I dont see anything going over and beyond the limitations, no different if you used premium gasoline, with a better carburetor with the best spark plug wires.
Lets bring it back to what it is, your not re boring the engine, your tuning it up''big difference.
and all with in its own design and limitation. In a .22 caliber we know the sweet spot is around 950 fps, we know that anything over 1,000 creates instability in the pellets flight. The results then we would want to see would be from 900 fps to 980 fps in a .22, anything way beyond that is defeating the purpose and I would regard as ridicules,
Bear with me here Mike as it's not a dig or attack.
Just answer this simple question.
Do you know what the stress failure point is for the Hatsan Quatro Trigger?
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"Do you know what the stress failure point is for the Hatsan Quatro Trigger?"
This should be known by Hatsan . But I doubt they will tell you due to liability issues. Brent
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It can also be discovered by tuners as well, fairly easily. But that's not the point I want Mike to understand.
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Crosman rams are not adjustable to my knowledge. The XL ram, If I received the correct ram is 1/4 shorter on the barrel and the shortness on the shaft. You need to remember I bought one of the WFH from PA a year a go with the nitro installed and after all the hype of the fire blazing withthe HATSAN have dis assembled the the gun and stripped it of the conversion. The WFH ram is not the XL. So I have 1 version of the conversion in my hands. It is proved that one can make the XL work and work safe. I can at will test the difference of the 2 rams in load carrying.
In the WFH, the gun was consistant and a gun I could grab and shoot with no issues at all. Yes the RE-BRANDED USA HATSAN, THE WALTHER!!!! EVEN AFTER A BARREL MISHAP AND A CHOP JOB THE GUN WAS STILL A KEEPER. SO THE CONVERSION HYPE HITS. i PULL THE GUN A PART AND STRIP THE RAM AND PUT THE SPRING BACK IN. Now the gun puts out more FPS but is a hand full. GUN IS ON BUT NOT A TAME GUN. So the ram helps remove the torquing,twisting and recoil with loss of FPS. As we all know speed is not always good FOR ACCURATENCY.
I am glad THAT GENE has stepped in on the conversion. As a MODERATER OF THE FORUM AND A MODDER IN THE HOBBY: He can be of help in this conversion with the main thing we need to remember SAFETY. Yes it is a given he is not going to want a maximum limitation exceeded on any mod. LIABILITY!!! RESPONSIBLITY!!!SAFETY!!!!
Maxing out anything is pushing THE safety concern and the life of what ever you are testing. Example: In my SUPERCHARGED trk I could turn more RPM'S get more HP at the rear wheels THUS MAKING THE TRK MUCH MORE QUICKER. But it is not safe for all the componets in the drivetrain.
Yes this is the same on the guns. 25 fps more in comparison to 1000 RPMS AND 25 more HP. But how long will it last. My tuner will not give me the extra 1000 RPMS for the same reason GENE WILL NOT. LIABILITY!!! RESPONSIBLITY!!!SAFETY!!!!
So there are two sides of SAFETY. Safety for your health and being and safety for the product lasting. Well so much for the SOAP BOX start of the day
I dont know what rams your talking about that would exceed the limitations,
What members have done so far was to see what the cocking effort , and fps with different calibers, while using the correct stroke gas ram for there testing, namely a 100,and a 125.
the enforcer has been eliminated, because of it not being the easiest to cock.
The Xl has been tested with good to moderate results,, the moller red, with good to moderate result of 900 fps in a .22
Now the moller yellow is next, I dont see anything going over and beyond the limitations, no different if you used premium gasoline, with a better carburetor with the best spark plug wires.
Lets bring it back to what it is, your not re boring the engine, your tuning it up''big difference.
and all with in its own design and limitation. In a .22 caliber we know the sweet spot is around 950 fps, we know that anything over 1,000 creates instability in the pellets flight. The results then we would want to see would be from 900 fps to 980 fps in a .22, anything way beyond that is defeating the purpose and I would regard as ridicules,
Bear with me here Mike as it's not a dig or attack.
Just answer this simple question.
Do you know what the stress failure point is for the Hatsan Quatro Trigger?
Paul as we speak'' That information for the new Quattro trigger will be sent out and tested, I will be giving detailed dimensions, thickness of trigger pieces, trigger pins, trigger block etc. for a complete analysis.
If a trigger is designed for a magnum rifle and getting 950 fps in a . 22 ''mechanically speaking'' ""how strong do you think that design is? how strong? whats your best guess for possible failure?
1-1/2 to 2 x the entire Load? My guess is you would not be able to cock the rifle if the piston was so strong that it would cause trigger failure.
what we are talking about is the 950 fps mark with the spring, and not over 1,000 fps in a .22 with a gas ram, That is 50 fps additional. 50 ft additional. Let me remind everyone that a new J M seal installed with out adjustment, was able to knock off 50 fps, in a recent post you do the math.
I
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Getting the Quattro trigger tested should provide accurate, objective data as to it's strengths and weaknesses. We should be able to see the forces and loads on each component, throughout the mechanism. This kind of information should be extremely useful to all tuners, whether dealing with stock or aftermarket springs, as well as gas ram conversions.
With gas rams, most likely, being the way of the future in break-barrel rifles, we might want to think about having similar testing done on other trigger assemblies, too!
Safety is the most important thing and this will go a long way towards making things safer for everyone who works on these rifles.
Thanks, Mike !
Dave
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"My guess is you would not be able to cock the rifle if the piston was so strong that it would cause trigger failure."
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I don't know about that. There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs. There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally. Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction. Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head. You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring. Definitely not on the maps...
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I would rather have reliable data . . . Estimates are OK for predicting performance.
Dave
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I would rather have reliable data . . . Estimates are OK for predicting performance.
Dave
Precisely.
The trigger assembly is the most critical aspect here when increasing potential energy.
As well as the wear properties of the metal and the maximum load bearing capability of the sear contact area, you also have to take into account the entire trigger assembly as a unit. Perhaps the load at the sear and piston contact point will become enough to overcome the spring tension on the sear, causing a serious hair trigger and random release condition. This is much more likely to happen before actual structural failure of the sear occurs.
Manufacturers generally have a safety margin built into their failure rates for devices, which if I am not mistaken is usually the actual failure point multiplied. By how much, don't know.
Point is, if you don't know the actual failure point of a device, then it is impossible to say a modification is certifiably safe until you can demonstrate a preserved margin of safety. Worse, the added stresses in this case will definitely affect wear rates, which means your safety margin is going to shrink prematurely compared to a factory design.
For all you guys know, going to a high pressure gas spring could be putting just enough stress on the trigger group to be a serious hazard, but only a month or so down the road.
Its not enough to assume the factory designed the trigger to withstand the weight of a battleship and call it "good". They designed it for the load the original spring would create, nothing else. You have to find out just how much your alterations are going to affect it.
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I don't know about that. There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs. There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally. Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction. Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head. You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring. Definitely not on the maps...
I don't know about that. There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs. There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally. Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction. Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head. You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring. Definitely not on the maps...
well we were talking about the quattro trigger, not any others
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For all you guys know, going to a high pressure gas spring could be putting just enough stress on the trigger group to be a serious hazard, but only a month or so down the road.
Its not enough to assume the factory designed the trigger to withstand the weight of a battleship and call it "good". They designed it for the load the original spring would create, nothing else. You have to find out just how much your alterations are going to affect it.
Which is precisely why the entire Quattro trigger mechanism is being evaluated.
Dave
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X 2
I would rather have reliable data . . . Estimates are OK for predicting performance.
Dave
Precisely.
The trigger assembly is the most critical aspect here when increasing potential energy.
As well as the wear properties of the metal and the maximum load bearing capability of the sear contact area, you also have to take into account the entire trigger assembly as a unit. Perhaps the load at the sear and piston contact point will become enough to overcome the spring tension on the sear, causing a serious hair trigger and random release condition. This is much more likely to happen before actual structural failure of the sear occurs.
Manufacturers generally have a safety margin built into their failure rates for devices, which if I am not mistaken is usually the actual failure point multiplied. By how much, don't know.
Point is, if you don't know the actual failure point of a device, then it is impossible to say a modification is certifiably safe until you can demonstrate a preserved margin of safety. Worse, the added stresses in this case will definitely affect wear rates, which means your safety margin is going to shrink prematurely compared to a factory design.
For all you guys know, going to a high pressure gas spring could be putting just enough stress on the trigger group to be a serious hazard, but only a month or so down the road.
Its not enough to assume the factory designed the trigger to withstand the weight of a battleship and call it "good". They designed it for the load the original spring would create, nothing else. You have to find out just how much your alterations are going to affect it.
We dont know what they designed that trigger load for, just because it is installed does not make it designed for that exact load producing 950fps ,we can not assume that the trigger is maxed out at that given power load as well.
We cant assume that 50 fps more above the snipers 950 fps is going to produce any wear on any parts., Until the testing is done on the trigger, I would be adjusting my ram only another 30 fps, above the average of 950fps that it normally generates making it a total of 980fps in a .22
When you consider you can loose 50 fps when using a new un adjusted j m piston seal,
The 30 fps above the snipers average in all probability should have no effect at all.
We shall see,the triggers mechanism, is designed very well, it had many variations leading up to the quattro trigger, there is nothing wimpy about it.
All the stored energy inside a snug fitting trigger block,with solid sear and mechanism parts, locked in with solid pins, then the entire trigger block is mounted with two large retaining pins, It is well designed, and well made work of art.
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I don't know about that. There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs. There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally. Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction. Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head. You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring. Definitely not on the maps...
I don't know about that. There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs. There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally. Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction. Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head. You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring. Definitely not on the maps...
well we were talking about the quattro trigger, not any others
So what's your point? I was, too. Actually, pretty much any trigger. Sorry to offend you with a little bit of caution, best of luck to you
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X 2
I would rather have reliable data . . . Estimates are OK for predicting performance.
Dave
Precisely.
The trigger assembly is the most critical aspect here when increasing potential energy.
As well as the wear properties of the metal and the maximum load bearing capability of the sear contact area, you also have to take into account the entire trigger assembly as a unit. Perhaps the load at the sear and piston contact point will become enough to overcome the spring tension on the sear, causing a serious hair trigger and random release condition. This is much more likely to happen before actual structural failure of the sear occurs.
Manufacturers generally have a safety margin built into their failure rates for devices, which if I am not mistaken is usually the actual failure point multiplied. By how much, don't know.
Point is, if you don't know the actual failure point of a device, then it is impossible to say a modification is certifiably safe until you can demonstrate a preserved margin of safety. Worse, the added stresses in this case will definitely affect wear rates, which means your safety margin is going to shrink prematurely compared to a factory design.
For all you guys know, going to a high pressure gas spring could be putting just enough stress on the trigger group to be a serious hazard, but only a month or so down the road.
Its not enough to assume the factory designed the trigger to withstand the weight of a battleship and call it "good". They designed it for the load the original spring would create, nothing else. You have to find out just how much your alterations are going to affect it.
We dont know what they designed that trigger load for, just because it is installed does not make it designed for that exact load producing 950fps ,we can not assume that the trigger is maxed out at that given power load as well.
We cant assume that 50 fps more above the snipers 950 fps is going to produce any wear on any parts., Until the testing is done on the trigger, I would be adjusting my ram only another 30 fps, above the average of 950fps that it normally generates making it a total of 980fps in a .22
When you consider you can loose 50 fps when using a new un adjusted j m piston seal,
The 30 fps above the snipers average in all probability should have no effect at all.
We shall see,the triggers mechanism, is designed very well, it had many variations leading up to the quattro trigger, there is nothing wimpy about it.
All the stored energy inside a snug fitting trigger block,with solid sear and mechanism parts, locked in with solid pins, then the entire trigger block is mounted with two large retaining pins, It is well designed, and well made work of art.
Mike, it has nothing to do with how much faster the gun shoots.
This post points out exactly what I am trying to get across Mike. Which is that you, and please don't take this the wrong way, are in over your head. I've gotten the feeling from a few of the Vets posts on this subject, that they have been trying to say the same thing, just a little more subtley.
To get an extra 50FPS, takes a LOT more stored energy, which means a lot more stress on the trigger. The increase in FPS and FPE is not parallel to ram (spring) energy. As you go higher in ram energy, your gains get smaller.
Just because you are "only" increasing speed by 50FPS in other words means nothing.
I'm not trying to tear you down. I've been watching all this for awhile along with a lot of other folks and haven't said much except to point out a few hints that perhaps you might want to slow down. But I honestly think this might be heading for some unpleasant mojo for ya.
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Exactly. There is more to boosting power than just installing a stronger spring or ram. There is a point of diminished returns, where it takes exponentially more force and speed to compress a given volume of air fast enough to give you a noticeable power increase. At 30 fpe, with the Hatsan 125, you are already pretty dang close to that point. All of the Hatsan guns come with heavy pistons and extremely stout springs. I'm willing to bet that even with a ram so strong that it required some type of mechanical assistance to cock the gun, you'd still never get very far beyond 35 fpe and i doubt the sear would hold up against such force
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I don't know about that. There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs. There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally. Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction. Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head. You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring. Definitely not on the maps...
I don't know about that. There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs. There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally. Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction. Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head. You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring. Definitely not on the maps...
well we were talking about the quattro trigger, not any others
So what's your point? I was, too. Actually, pretty much any trigger. Sorry to offend you with a little bit of caution, best of luck to you
I don't know about that. There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs. There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally. Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction. Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head. You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring. Definitely not on the maps...
I don't know about that. There are some cheap Chinese springers that have trigger failures with even just the factory springs. There is a load that will cause that trigger mechanism to fail, and there is probably a wide range at which the trigger will fail occasionally. Might not happen for, say, 2,367 shots, then on 2,368 maybe you are walking through the woods locked and cocked, and bump that thing against a tree just right, and there she goes off into any direction. Even at 100 yards, that thing has enough power to kill a small child with ease, without hitting him in the head. You never really know who, or what, is off in the distance- my favorite game lands in North Carolina were bordered by many small residential areas that you'd never know anything about without exploring. Definitely not on the maps...
well we were talking about the quattro trigger, not any others
So what's your point? I was, too. Actually, pretty much any trigger. Sorry to offend you with a little bit of caution, best of luck to you
Hi Bryan.
You did not offend me, and I did not mean to ''sound offensive to you, you made a good point, just at the time I responded to you, I was strictly focused on the quattro after reading and trying to catch up on where I last left off in this particular post.
Its all good Bryan. your input is just as valuable as everyone else .
Best regards Mike
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I just cant wait to here the results :)
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"When you consider you can loose 50 fps when using a new un adjusted j m piston seal,
The 30 fps above the snipers average in all probability should have no effect at all."
X 2
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If you look at the cutaway of the quattro trigger you can see how it works. It was designed so the sear could not release unless the trigger is pulled as long as you don't add longer screws and prevent it from fully locking up. Once properly locked up the sear cannot be jarred loose because the lever configuration blocks the sear from coming down until the trigger is pulled rearward. This is an improvement over the older design that could release if jarred just right from what I remember reading. Sloppy tolerances could cause it not to be as safe as designed though.
Lever #1 in the diagram holds the piston when cocked. From what I am seeing you would have to shear the catch off the top of lever 1 or break the steel pin holding lever one in place to release the piston without pulling the trigger.
This is all housed in a hefty steel frame. No Sure bet, but it's a beefy design and IMHO the odds are in favor of it holding up fine. Also the yellow gas ram has been installed in at least one, maybe 2 WFH's already if I remember right.
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"I am not getting ahead of anything,"
Keep on rockin Mike. There are allot of members watching your progress, should be very cool. 950-980 fps excellent.
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Like I said dude, good luck. Members have already installed 180 bar rams, with pretty fan freakin' tastic results. I wouldn't take it any further
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"Bad mojo for having a open forum discussion on the topic at hand ?, "
No Mike, bad mojo as in having a barrel slam shut or a random trigger as has already happened with at least one Hatsan "mod", or someones fingers getting lopped off or a skull cracked, or someone getting shot.
Others have already installed the heavy gas spring yeah, and removed it as well because if I remember correctly it made them umcomfortable.
As has been said, have at it. Keep in mind though the difference between personal responsibility and being responsible for others.
Good luck.
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Guys,
Emotions are running a little high . . .
We all have a passion for airguns, of one type or another . . . Some of us are satisfied with "stock" rifles, while others are looking to increase the power levels of their rifles. There are also folks who "detune" their rifles, reducing power to pursue accuracy over power.
Many people like to work on and "tinker" with rifles . . . That is probably where many of the great innovations in airguns have come from, over the years, in my opinion.
As long as we practice our hobby safely, and work together to help each other out, hobby air-gunning should continue to expand and improve.
I think that taking the steps to mechanically evaluate the Quattro trigger are a very good thing. I believe it would be worth having triggers made by other manufacturers similarly tested (RWS, GAMO, "Chinese",etc ).
Even if we are not talking about gas ram conversions, swapping springs is a common practice in "springers". The same situation, by installing a different or custom spring, could be encountered in any air rifle.
I am looking forward to seeing what the evaluation of the Quattro trigger says. Based on the empirical data, it will either sound a warning or ease concerns over possible mechanical failure. Either way, the outcome is a good thing.
Dave
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Had it not been for Elmer Keith's wild power loading expierments with the .38 and .44 Special,the.357 and .44 Magnums may not have evolved.
Had the "net" been around back then I sure he would have been telling all what he was doing too.
Just because someone goes beyond,does not mean it's an OK for everyone to try....just use your own personal judgement as to how far you feel safe to go.
Before I got into air rifles,again, I was machining up wooden bullets powered by primer caps,to shoot at my garage target box,using my different caliber handguns. Worked really well from 20 ft. Would penetrate 1/2 gal. water filled milk jugs easily. However,due to local laws,I could not do this in the backyard...hence the airgun hobby.
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Well, once again an otherwise informative thread has become polluted and will be locked down. We here at "jerk water USA" support our own. Those that have PROVEN themselves, not those that come in here with trumpets blaring proclaiming they are the "NEW" guard and we owe it to them to support them. We as a group/community/family WILL support you once you prove yourself. But DO NOT come to GTA with an attitude that turns almost every post into a verbal battle. I'm tired of seeing it and it just is NOT in the spirit of this great forum. We are here to ENJOY the sport and we should not come here only after strapping on our boxing gloves and being prepared to bob & weave through the threads. It ends here and now.
I will not stand by and have anyone make a statement that GTA cares nothing about honesty and integrity and that we are here only to promote the few to make money. That is a slap in the face of all that has been built here by the fantastic members. We promote our own, but only AFTER they have proven themselves with many years of service to the sport. If you want to call that favortism, so be it. We call it protecting our members and recommending those that have EARNED it.
Those that have been around GTA for any time will know that I do not make it a habit of posting this type of message. I prefer posting more informative and enjoyable messages. But when we are attacked in public forum, you will hear from me.
Now let's get back to airgunning and enjoying the sport.
Happy Shooting!!!!
Dave
8)
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And one FINAL thought. Evaluating a trigger group? Checking it's limits or limitations? Folks, airgun manufacturers HAVE engineers and designers. A company cannot just throw an item together and toss it out on the market without testing and evaluating. NO company can afford the lawsuits that could stem from an improperly built or unsafe product. These companies have engineers and designers for a reason. If you feel they are not doing ALL they can do, then contact the manufacture or better yet, apply for a job in their engineering department. I believe what they produce and make available to us consumers are products that are designed and built in the safest configuration available. Otherwise the product will be recalled. Yes, modifying is possible. Improvements CAN be made. But tuning is not all about power. It's about making an airgun perform smoother, more consistant and accurate. When you start pushing the limits or looking for the limits of a product outside of a controlled envoirnment, you are playing in unsafe territory.
Hmmm....might that be WHY you aren't hearing all of the PROFESSIONAL tuners step forward? Because they know and understand these points. Too bad everyone doesn't.
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Thank you Dave and all well said from me, the staff and the members on the forum.
It is because of Dave and the rest of our strong administrative staff that our forum is what it is today. It can be a tough call at times and might even upset some but there are times that we do what we need to do to maintain what the GTA represents to our membership and the airgun community.
Our team have both Genes and my support.
Thank you again Dave (ezman604.. aka: Dez)
CDT