GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => "Bob and Lloyds Workshop" => Topic started by: rsterne on April 26, 2012, 04:08:06 PM
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I managed to get a complete Crosman trigger group for the Marauder Pistol, with hopes of using it on either a 1322 or 1740 I am working on.... The trigger group is built on the same frame as the latest 13XX and 22XX triggers, using the plastic side plate.... It incorporates a drop sear, intermediate link with adjustments for the 1st and 2nd stage, a trigger pull weight adjustment, and an overtravel screw.... In other words, it is completely adjustable, producing a target quality trigger.... although even at minimum pull weight it is probably still a bit heavy for that use.... I would think a bit of tinkering with the springs would soon cure that.... It is much less sensitive to a change in hammer spring because of the intermediate link.... so using a heavy hammer spring won't result in a heavy trigger pull that can't be adjusted out....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/1750%20with%20DPH/PRodTriggerGroup.jpg)
The PRod uses a tube of the same dimensions as a 22XX, and as expected, the trigger "worked" when bolted up to the 2240 tube my 1740 is based on.... When bolted onto the smaller diameter 1322 tube, however, it wouldn't cock.... I determined that the problem was that the smaller tube fit slightly deeper into the recess in the top of the trigger frame, which pushed the sear down further than if it was bolted to a 22XX tube.... This made the sear interfere with the intermediate link, and the sear couldn't drop into place on that link to return to the cocked position and catch the hammer.... The solution was very simple.... I just filed a flat on the bottom of the tube just in front of the sear slot to allow the sear to move up further.... The area of the sear which interferred, and the part of the tube I filed away are circled in yellow on the photos.... I just filed the flat until it was the same width as the slot, and about 1/4" long....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/1750%20with%20DPH/1377TubeMod.jpg)
Now I had a trigger which would function on the 13XX installation.... well almost.... In order to cock the gun, you had to pull the trigger.... The same thing happened when the trigger was installed on the 22XX.... It turns out that once fired, the drop sear (the part circled in red) is lifted back into place by it's own spring, and the intermediate lever latches, holding it up.... The sear is now sitting in the groove around the middle of the hammer (similar in shape on both the 13XX and 22XX hammers).... and when you go to pull the bolt back the slope on the front part of that groove can't push the sear out of the way like it does with the spring loaded sear on the stock trigger group.... OK, so you have to pull the trigger back to cock the gun, pull back the bolt/hammer, then release the trigger to latch the hammer back.... That's a PITA, but workable.... maybe....
Now on to the next problem.... When you fire the gun, the sear pops up so quickly into that groove that it prevents the hammer from hitting the valve as hard as usual.... Even on 6 pumps, the valve was retaining air.... The solution was to grind away the bottom of the hammer behind the groove so that the sear can't hit it.... You can see the part of the hammer I ground away circled in red.... You have to grind it to nearly the same depth as the groove, for about half the length of the larger diameter.... The same modification would be required on a 22XX hammer....
What does this mean?.... Well, for use with either a 13XX or 22XX hammer, you would have to grind away part of the hammer, and the gun still can't be cocked without pulling the trigger.... This doesn't happen on the PRod because the hammer doesn't have the thinner "waist" in the center, it is cylindrical (with flat sides, but that doesn't matter).... Since it is flat on the bottom, once you pull the trigger to fire the gun, the sear stays down until the gun is recocked.... nothing for the sear to hit or prevent recocking.... An obvious solution on a 22XX would be to purchase the hammer from the PRod (or from a Challenger 2009) and install it along with the PRod trigger.... You get the extra advantage of an adjustable hammer fall, since that is a feature of both guns.... Although I have not tried it, I have heard that filling in the bottom part of the "waist" with JB Weld and filing it smooth works as well (you wouldn't grind the hammer like I did).... As long as the bottom of the hammer is smooth (no groove), this trigger will function normally, and you won't have to pull the trigger to cock the gun.... On a 13XX tube, you will still need to file a small area in front of the sear slot, however....
Those of you who were wondering about using a PRod trigger group on your 13XX or 22XX now have your answer.... It bolts up, but it's not a "bolt-on".... However, it can be made to work with other changes....
Bob
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very nice write up bob and once again there is the reason why i like crosman, their the lego's of airguns.
im using a challenger 2009 hammer in my carbine for the adjustable hammer strike.. but guys you need to order the hammer and the striker not just the hammer..
this is what bob is talking about when talks about packing the groove with jb weld. i did this for the disco hammer on my disco when i converted to the match grade mrod trigger. i have a write up in the machine shop gate and then click the top sub gate and its on page 2. mrod trigger into a disco
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy79/mizke/discohammermod.jpg)
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I have changed the triggers to the 1701P on my 1377 Carbine and 2300T and if I can do it it has to be pretty basic.They both work great and there is a big improvement even on a 2300T.
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Thanks Bob, clear and easy to read info. Even a 3rd grader (or me) can understand it.
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Agree with all the above. The 1701P/P-Rod trigger group is fabulous. Crosman ought to use this grip frame and trigger group for all their pistol.
Whether installing on a 13xx or 22xx frame, do notch out the air tube as shown by rsterne. Touch up the bare metal with some paint or primer to prevent rust.
The JB Weld mod for a 13xx hammer works fine so far. As a side note, I understand Charlie Mellon (Mellonair) makes a replacement hammer that will work with the P-Rod grip on a 13xx, upon request.
You can JB Weld a 22xx hammer, or take a short cut and order a P-Rod hammer. You will need to plug the hole in the front of the P-Rod hammer where the striker would be inserted so the hammer will hit the valve stem. I used the P-Rod striker with no adverse effect. I was worth the few extra bucks.
If you have a Crosman steel breech with the new breech screw location (under the bolt), you will have to notch out the top of the hammer to clear the screw.
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i put a p-rod trigger group on my 13xx/2289
i like it. no more squishy trigger.trigger travel is very short imo gives me less room for trigger pull error.i dont have the over travel screw ,but i learned no to pull the trigger all the way to the frame.
a jb weld modded hammer was used then i got a custom hammer,it weighs more than the modded hammer by a few grams.i felt the drag so i polished the hammer and used some moly.
seems to work.i did have to do the same mod to the tube you did.i wrote about it here a few months ago.
the last i chronied my gun the numbers were the same from before and after the mod.
over on CAPOF there was a write up done on the conversion in aug 2011
it prompted me to do the conversion then.
couldnt be happier
keep in mind its not a match trigger like on a fwb 80.i wouldnt want a 17oz trigger pull myself
it is a great improvement over the stock trigger group
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I installed my PRod trigger group on my 2260 PCP Carbine Grouse Gun.... I used the hammer from a CH2009 (including the adjustable striker screw), and it works flawlessly.... By changing the hammer along with the trigger group, it becomes a bolt-in job, and with the hammer travel set at maximum (full in CCW) the velocity is unchanged from the 22XX trigger group and hammer.... I simply LOVE the 2-stage setup and the adjustablity.... and the far lighter trigger pull, especially when using a heavy hammer spring.... Anyone considering upgrading the trigger on their 22XX should have a look at the PRod trigger group and hammer assembly.... Part numbers are as follows:
PRod Trigger group - 2220-103 (mine didn't come with the safety ball and spring, but it should have, likely fell out before shipping) - Number Edited due to typo....
Hammer - CH2009A009
Striker - 1763A036
Acetal Pin - CH2009-023 (stops the striker from rotating - not necessary if you run it at max power - ie full CCW)
If you are using the trigger group on a 13XX, you will have to either modify your existing hammer as in the post above, or better yet, make a cylindrical one.... You will also need to file a small flat in the tube as above....
Bob
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i think this trigger group should be on all crosman pistols that use this style grip frame
on my 2289 i get the same numbers with this gf/tg as when the old tg/gf was on there i am using dri-slide on the hammer and a disco hammer spring.
i know something will happen to the hardening
looking at the hammer i see where the sear rides it.
could i make a groove in the hammer to help ease or eliminate any drag?
or
make a custom hammer with the groove in it?
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If you have a groove in the bottom of the hammer, you could eliminate the drag of the sear.... However, you would still have to pull the trigger to cock the gun.... The only solution to that, that I can see, is to use a hammer that is flat on the bottom (ie no waist) like the PRod/Challenger hammer....
Bob
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Sorry for being dense.....
So
Does this 1701/Prod trigger frame bolt right up and work with all the other 2240 elements?
How about a 2400kt? I have one on the way, that is slated for
Valve work or a B&A Boss
An HDD
A Hipac
A Tippman stock adaptor/power adjustor
Poly transfer
Extended bolt
Trigger work
-I am gonna attempt the valve work myself, I think. If it doesnt get me where I want, then will buy the boss.
-Hopefully, the HDD will help pay for itself since Im planning on carts at first, then may bulk next year UTILIZING the hipac.
-The tippman stock, hey...it needs an adjuster anyway, and I wanna be able to fold it up and put it on the back of the motorcycle.
-poly transfer port and extended bolt, easily done.
Now the trigger work.....are you ( I HOPE you are) telling me I can have a "close to match grade" trigger, just by ordering the whole assembly, and then bolting up?
Part number for the whole thing? Or do they get ordered individually?
God bless and thanks,
Farmer
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The PRod trigger assembly is available (only?) as a complete unit.... You will need either the PRod/Challenger hammer and striker or you can fill in the bottom of your 22XX hammer with JB Weld to eliminate the waist....
PRod Trigger group - 2220-103 (mine didn't come with the safety ball and spring, but it should have, likely fell out before shipping)
Hammer - CH2009A009
Striker - 1763A036
Acetal Pin - CH2009-023 (stops the striker from rotating - not necessary if you run it at max power - ie full CCW)
The trigger group shares the same grip frame as the later version of the 22XX trigger group (with the plastic side plate) and will bolt right up to a 22XX tube....
Bob
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you can order it part by part too
i dont have any part numbers because i go to the shop tell him what i want and he pulls it off the majik shelf
i just got an extra sear and trigger
if you try to build one off the the new grip frame, i think you will need to drill a hole so you can adjust the trigger stages
without having to take the side plate off
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The PRod trigger assembly is available (only?) as a complete unit.... You will need either the PRod/Challenger hammer and striker or you can fill in the bottom of your 22XX hammer with JB Weld to eliminate the waist....
PRod Trigger group - 2220-103 (mine didn't come with the safety ball and spring, but it should have, likely fell out before shipping)
Hammer - CH2009A009
Striker - 1763A036
Acetal Pin - CH2009-023 (stops the striker from rotating - not necessary if you run it at max power - ie full CCW)
The trigger group shares the same grip frame as the later version of the 22XX trigger group (with the plastic side plate) and will bolt right up to a 22XX tube....
Bob
I am planning to try to mount the p-rod assembly to a discovery. Is there anything outside of the actual trigger assembly itself that I would have to buy? (I want to do a 1 shot order from crosman).
Are the grip frame anchor holes for the discovery the same distance as the p-rod?
Looking at the exploded views, the difference that I can see is the discovery's stock lug (#22 - part 2260-012). It appears to anchor the grip frame to the tube, much like the p-rod screw (#31 - part 2220-005). Are these the same threading, so I would be able to order an extra screw and be done with it, or do I need to do something special?
And if there is anything else you can think of that will help a newbie, please let me know.
Thanks again!
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The PRod trigger group is not compatible with a Disco stock of course.... you would have to use pistol grips, a skeleton stock, or aftermarket stock.... The mounting holes are the same spacing and threads.... any 8-32 screw of the right length would work for the front screw....
You will either have to modify your hammer by filling the "waist" or get a PRod/Challenger hammer and striker as stated above....
Bob
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The PRod trigger group is not compatible with a Disco stock of course.... you would have to use pistol grips, a skeleton stock, or aftermarket stock.... The mounting holes are the same spacing and threads.... any 8-32 screw of the right length would work for the front screw....
You will either have to modify your hammer by filling the "waist" or get a PRod/Challenger hammer and striker as stated above....
Bob
you will also have to cut the lip in the prod\challenger hammer to clear the breech screw if the breech screw is in under the bolt
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Thanks Mike, I forgot that....
Bob
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Thanks Mike, I forgot that....
Bob
yup forgot that myself when i put my challenger hammer in my disco, bent my breech screw and was one of the factors that lead up to my little accident with the airtube being under pressure and me removing the fill adapter
pictures are worth a thousand words
this is a disco hammer with the waist filled in with jb weld for use on my mrod trigger group on my disco
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy79/mizke/discohammermod.jpg)
this is the lip that needs to be cut into the challenger/prod hammer.. this is the challenger/prod hammer, you also need to order the striker for it. bonus is the hammer throw is adjustable by loosening or tightening the strike through the back of the hammer with a hex head wrench.. so you can reduce or increase the hammer throw..
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy79/mizke/NewHammer.jpg)
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Thanks guys! I am getting a power adjuster for it from mr mellon (not sure if that accomplishes the same task as the striker adjusting -- I'm still a newbie).
Looks like I need to pick up a pack of jb weld - it'll save me 26 bux and the headache of trying to dremel out metal :)
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Nice explanation and pics - thanks guys.
I have another question. I Just ordered a trigger assembly, p-rod hammer and striker, acetal pin, 2 extra balls and springs (yes, I lost both of them from my 2240 already :) ), and a p-rod hammer spring and guide, just because I like having springs to play with. :)
One thing I forgot to ask about was grips - will my 2240 grips fit the p-rod assembly?
Allan
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Yes....
Bob
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Thanks Bob. I was almost ready to live with a simple lightened trigger spring until I went to a heavier hammer spring. :) Looking forward to seeing how the p-rod trigger does.
Allan
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allen
dont forget to cut the lip in the top of the hammer to clear the breech screw.. the force of the hammer will bend the breech screw that sticks down in to the tube and thats just as bad as a stripped breech screw
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Will do Mike. Thanks for your input in the thread. I may have found out about that the hard way. :)
Allan
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the 1399 stock fits also just in case you want to go carbine/rifle
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(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy79/mizke/NewHammer.jpg)
prod/challenger hammer with the lip cut for the breech screw... when ordering this order ur self the striker as well if you just plug the hole flush with the hammer you loose the extra adjustment feature for the hammer throw. adding adjustments its good if you can since it helps with tuning
im using the challenger\prod hammer in my carbine
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I talked to Dez and Gene today about the JB Weld usage and they were both concerned about it becoming brittle and crumbling over time.
So maybe I need to investigate the p-rod hammer idea.
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I talked to Dez and Gene today about the JB Weld usage and they were both concerned about it becoming brittle and crumbling over time.
So maybe I need to investigate the p-rod hammer idea.
what kind of time line are you talking about?
the jbweld i use has been holding up for 4 years in a hostile environment,with no sign of wear or degeneration.i used it to fill a missing chunk of metal in some moving parts,where the jbweld is making contact with other metal very frequently.also have some filling a long crack on an oil pan its been holing up for the last 3 years got worried when the engine was dropped on the ground but it held up.a friend is using some on a cracked intake manifold no issues
the industro version is the stuff i use for aggressive applications.i use it on a lot of metal as a weld.i dropped the parts expecting them to break and they still held up to the test of time, so far.not done on purpose
in my uneducated opinion the stuff works for everything i use it for.may be dumb luck
if you are really concerned you have other options
mellonair made me a solid hammer for my 2289g.it was cheaper than the jbweld i use
for 22xx guns there is the challenger striker set up and if you ask mellonair will more than likely make up a 22xx solid hammer
i have been using the 1701p trigger group since nov'11 and imo its the best trigger mod that can be done for the crosman pistols.nothing says aahhhh like a 2 stage trigger ;)
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My concerns are that a hammer is in quite a different enviornment than say an oil pan crack or intake manifold crack. A hammer is going to be slamming and vibrating quite a bit. I could be wrong and Dave (grumpy) made a good point that a lot depends on getting the correct mix when using it. I'm just concerned (and admit it COULD be needlessly) about any epoxy compound used in a slamming/vibrating surface inside an airgun. It may be fine, I'm just going by my experience with epoxies over the years. I would rather replace the hammer than take a chance on having a chunk of JB Weld floating around inside my airgun.
But hey, I've been wrong before and will be again.
Happy Shooting!!!!
Dave
8)
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I will post a picture of my disco hammer after about 1000 pellets there is signs of wear but its not to to bad. But yes I've got me another challeneger hammer and striker on the way from crosman... cut a lip in it for the breech screw and ur good to go, plus if ur wanting to detune a disco for more shots you adjust the hammer throw using a challenger hammer and striker..
To go another with 1377's comment about jb weld on car parts. I bought a brand new intake system for a 03-04 mustang, got sent a 94-98 intake and gave up trying to fight with the ebay seller to replace it.. the only difference between the years is the 94-98 has a sensor mount via a hole in the top of the airtube. I plugged that hole with some stick jb weld 3yrs ago. Its held up just fine, no cracks, even took the pipe of to check for how its standing up on the inside of the tube and its held up fine..
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(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy79/mizke/IMAG0061-1.jpg)
You can see the wear from the sear
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thats pretty ugly!
a couple of my applications are in slamming environments.and im mean a lot of slamming about 15 cycles per second.after 4 years of this no wear and tear on the jb weld.where the jb is located if the slamming was going to wear it out the machine will quit working.so far so good
i might add a friend has the same machine and the same part broke.he tried to fix it with the regular tubes of jb weld.i wasnt there when he mixed it applied it but it showed damage like mikes hammer and i could put a gouge in it with my fingernail
use the indistro version of jb weld it resists shock and vibration,thats what made me get it the other jbwelds didnt say that on the package
http://jbweld.net/products/industro.php (http://jbweld.net/products/industro.php)
it might be just jb weld but it has a 4-6 our set time and can be used after 15 hours but i let mine it for at least 24 hours
another thing i do is weigh the two parts so i get an even mixture.when i used the other jbwelds i would eyeball it and end up with things looking like mikes hammer.too much or too little of one part makes an inferior product
speaking of which it looks like there was an underlying issue there should be a dent only where the sear rides in this case
where did the other dent come from? there may be several things going on not cured long enough,air pocket improper mixture
i have had parts not turn out, the jbweld didnt do what it was supposed to but it was operator error that caused it.just the other day i eyeballed a mix of jb quick weld and it didnt harden properly.i ended up wasting a lot because i had to weigh it. just to get it to register on the scale i had to use more than i needed but it turned out better.another thing was it was humid and that hampered drying time
not scientific but if i can gouge it with my nail something is not right
my dad would be rolling around in his grave if he knew i wasnt being precise,with him everything was precision
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i tried the nail gouging thing back when i did this and it had dried over night and even did it right after pulling it out night before last. i can even scratch it with my nail so thats not the problem it just over time the sear dragging across it, i cant feel through the trigger so i didnt think it was catching
bottem line i order a new challenger hammer and strike and will dremel grind the lip to clear the breech screw and then i know i have a hammer and trigger/sear setup designed for each other.. no more issues
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i tried the nail gouging thing back when i did this and it had dried over night and even did it right after pulling it out night before last. i can even scratch it with my nail so thats not the problem it just over time the sear dragging across it, i cant feel through the trigger so i didnt think it was catching
bottem line i order a new challenger hammer and strike and will dremel grind the lip to clear the breech screw and then i know i have a hammer and trigger/sear setup designed for each other.. no more issues
What dremel bits and what's your setup to clamp it all down? I can dremel, but I'd like to know someone else's setup (usually I eyeball dremel stuff).
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I'm going to use the pinkish grinding stones, and use a clamp and 2in thick peice of wood. Clamp the hammer to that and then screw the wood down to a make shift work table.. it will be secure..
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I've had good luck with the JB Weld epoxy putty. You just cut off a small bit, knead it, roll it out into the shape of a rod, wrap in the waist of the hammer and start pressing. I then wet a surface with water and roll the hammer to insure the putty is well set with no airspaces. After 24 hours, I find something that fits into the spring hole of the hammer, wedge it in, chuck it in a drill or drill press and start sanding until level and smooth. If you have concerns the JB Weld needs some additional strength, put on a thin coating of cyanoacrylate (i.e. Super Glue).
To create a notch to clear the breech screw, I used a benchtop grinder. You can use a Dremel, but you will need several grinding bits. The hardened steel is, well, really hard. Work slow and dip in water if it gets too hot.
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i dont have access to a bench grinder so i may look around and see if i can find some one here on the gta to do this who has more capable tools
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Just a followup. I installed my p-rod trigger today in my 2240 - it's well worth the few bucks. I thought I'd mention that the p-rod hammer does not need a notch if the breech screw is in the forward location and other than lengthening the slot for the sear, the trigger assembly and hammer are plug and play. I think the the price of the hammer and striker are worth the extra cost.
HUGE difference in the two triggers! I like it. :)
Allan
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awj,
you had to make the sear longer on the 2240,why?
was the sear not catching like on a 13xx
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When using the prod trigger group you either have to enlongate the slot for the sear in the bottem of the tube or cut down a a part of the sear..
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awj,
you had to make the sear longer on the 2240,why?
was the sear not catching like on a 13xx
Not the sear, just the slot in the tube. There's a section of the sear that doesn't clear the tube and will keep the gun from cocking unless you either lengthen the slot about 1/4 inch or do something like Bob mentioned and file down the tube just in front of the slot. Kind of hard to explain without pictures, but it's readily apparent if you have the parts in your hand. It's a 5 minute job if you have a dremel and some 3/16 diameter stones.
Allan
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I found the sear worked fine on a 22XX tube, but the 13XX tube needed modifying.... Photos on page one.... YMMV....
Bob
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awj,
you had to make the sear longer on the 2240,why?
was the sear not catching like on a 13xx
Not the sear, just the slot in the tube. There's a section of the sear that doesn't clear the tube and will keep the gun from cocking unless you either lengthen the slot about 1/4 inch or do something like Bob mentioned and file down the tube just in front of the slot. Kind of hard to explain without pictures, but it's readily apparent if you have the parts in your hand. It's a 5 minute job if you have a dremel and some 3/16 diameter stones.
Allan
i know thats true for the 13xx guns but this is the first i heard it had to be done to a 22xx.i guess ill try it out when i get home
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1377x - mine has the exact issue noted by Bob's pictures (circled in yellow). That part of the sear definitely keeps the sear from engaging into the tube. Breakfastchef notes it in his post as well. Unless there's something I don't know about the assembly, it's got to be done on a 2240 as well (or at least it had to be done on mine).
Allan
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My 2240 didn't need any change to the sear slot....
Bob
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My 2240 didn't need any change to the sear slot....
Bob
So what are we seeing here Bob? Are there different versions of the trigger assembly? There has to be some physical difference in either the tube or trigger for one to need the relief and another not to need it.
When you fit the assembly to yours, does the section of the sear forward of the sear itself contact the outside of the tube? Mine extends 3/16-1/4 past the end of the slot in the tube and the only way I can even get the assembly to lay flush is to pull the trigger while I hold the two together. At that point, the sear is barely protruding thru the tube.
When I was hand fitting it together before lengthening the slot, sliding the assembly back about 1/4 inch would allow the sear to snap into place as the sear cleared the slot. Am I missing something? I can't believe the sear is supposed to be held back by the contact to the outside of the tube - there's just not enough engagement to hold the hammer at that point. The only way this gun is going to fire is to lengthen that slot or shorten the section of the sear that's interfering.
I'm confused as usual. :)
Allan
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I can't tell you if there are two different sears or not.... All I know is mine has full engagement without modding the tube on a 22XX.... If you read the first post in this thread, the problem is not the engagement, but that the gun won't cock with the PRod trigger on the 13XX tube.... The sear has to clear the intermediate lever, which is what determines the engagement.... On the 13XX tube, unless you modify the tube, the sear won't move "up" enough to allow the intermediate lever to engage it.... On my 22XX tube, once installed, the sear has free movement up against the tube and down against the intermediate lever.... Since the intermediate lever is what governs the sear height under load, then any "extra" clearance means nothing....
Bob
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Maybe I should have asked about this sooner, but when I saw the sear protruding no more than ~.020 into the tube when the assembly was bolted up (after pulling the trigger to allow it to mount flush) I assumed that wasn't going to be enough to stop the hammer. I figured that's what you were talking about in the first post. It looked a whole lot better when it was fully extended into the tube after relieving the slot. :)
One way or another, it's a great trigger and is working fine.
Allan
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The distance the sear protrudes inside the tube is goverened by the intermediate link.... As long as it engages (and if it doesn't, you can't cock the gun) then it is working properly.... The 22XX tube and the PRod tube are the same diameter and wall thickness.... To see the actual engagement height, you have to push the sear down against the intermediate lever with the trigger group bolted in place....
The fact that you had to pull the trigger to mount the trigger group up flush is disturbing, though.... I can't understand why that would happen if the intermediate link is not holding the sear up against the tube.... In any case, you did the proper thing by relieving the tube so that the trigger is functioning properly and reliable....
Bob
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i believe crosman/outsourced party have loose tolerances when it comes to parts machining.
having read posts where people are mounting the trigger group on a 13xx and no modification is needed to do so,and now someone had an issue with mounting the trigger group on a 22xx,the first i have heard of but may not be the last.thats what makes me believe there are loose tolerances
when i first mounted the trigger group on my 13xx, at the time as far as i know,im the only one who had to alter the tube for sear engagement,i asked on the forums.at the time very few had the tg or didnt come forward.now after it is common for the tg to go on the crosman pistols,i am hearing more of the tube needing to be altered.
could be sear slot loose tolerance,could be the sear or both
i know some have altered the sear,myself i would rather mod the tube since its cheaper than the sear and easier to get
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I don't think it matters which you alter, the bottom of the tube in front of the sear slot, or the top of the sear where it can contact it.... The important thing is that when the trigger group is bolted into place, the sear can wiggle vertically, up against the tube and down against the intermediate lever.... It doesn't take much, a few thou of clearance is all that is required to allow the gun to cock properly.... The sear height under load is governed by the contact between the sear and the intermediate lever.... My guess is that the height of the cast frame (from the sear and intermediate lever pivot holes to the tube cradle) is the biggest tolerance, and the one that is causing the variability in installing this trigger....
Bob
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The distance the sear protrudes inside the tube is goverened by the intermediate link.... As long as it engages (and if it doesn't, you can't cock the gun) then it is working properly.... The 22XX tube and the PRod tube are the same diameter and wall thickness.... To see the actual engagement height, you have to push the sear down against the intermediate lever with the trigger group bolted in place....
The fact that you had to pull the trigger to mount the trigger group up flush is disturbing, though.... I can't understand why that would happen if the intermediate link is not holding the sear up against the tube.... In any case, you did the proper thing by relieving the tube so that the trigger is functioning properly and reliable....
Bob
Out of the box, on my trigger assembly, the sear cannot be pushed down unless the trigger is pulled. I don't know if that's normal or not. The section of the sear that you circled in yellow sits well forward of the end of the slot and is proud of the radius in the assembly that contacts the radius of the tube - they must interfere when you pull them together. Pulling the trigger at that point allows the sear to drop and everything snugs up nicely. The thing I didn't like about that is that the sear is at its maximum travel up - it can't go any higher because of the contact with the tube.
It just seemed rational that the sear should be able to use its entire range of travel and have more than the very small amount of contact available (seriously, ~.020) that I saw inside the tube. At that point, it can only go down - it's not able to move up any higher into the tube. After the slot relief, it pops up another .040-.050 of an inch into the tube (I'm guessing about that number, but it's a substantial amount). It just felt "right" to see it using the full range and it felt "right" not to have to pull the trigger to get it to mount.
On the other hand, I'm still a newbie, so what do I know? ;D
Allan
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Out of the box, on my trigger assembly, the sear cannot be pushed down unless the trigger is pulled.
You mean it doesn't move AT ALL vertically?.... There is a spring holding it up, and if you push it down against that spring, it should move down slightly before contacting the intermediate lever.... Not far, maybe only a few thou, but if it doesn't move at all, I don't see how it can even cock reliably.... I'm not talking about being bolted to the gun, just the trigger group sitting on the bench.... It seems to me your trigger group may have a problem....
Bob
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Sorry Bob, yes, there's a small amount of movement vertically and then it stops hard. That's the point where I need to pull the trigger to allow it any further movement.
Allan
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With a solid hammer, you would not have to pull the trigger to cock the gun.
Sorry Bob, yes, there's a small amount of movement vertically and then it stops hard. That's the point where I need to pull the trigger to allow it any further movement.
Allan
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With a solid hammer, you would not have to pull the trigger to cock the gun.
We're talking about the assembly off the gun. No problem when it's on. :)
Allan
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With a solid hammer, you would not have to pull the trigger to cock the gun.
That is a separate issue, relating to the waisted area of the trigger.... We're talking about the sear engaging with the intermediate lever when the trigger group is off the gun.... Since it does that, with a small amount of play, then the problem is likely the tolerance on the grip casting.... The top of the cradle is too close to the pivot pins, so that is why it was necessary for AllanWJ to modify the tube....
Bob
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so would it be a good idea for me to try the gripframe before i buy it?
i get all my crosman parts locally,try before i buy wont be a problem
the one i have on my 2289g,modded tube, is great it even surprised my local ag smith when he pulled the trigger.
now i need one for my 2240 but will move it to the ccs gun when i get it
i have extra triggers and sears just in case already
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1377x - It sounds like one of those "YMMV" things. The grip frame should work fine but you may have to relieve the slot. You can lay the trigger assembly up against the bottom of tube, line up the mounting holes, and just look at the portion of the sear circled in yellow. If it extends past the end of the slot and it's sitting above the bottom of the radius in the asembly, then it will have to interfere. How much I guess is the question. Mine was alot - enough to where I had to pull the trigger to free the sear before I could get the two pieces to come together. At that point, you can look down the tube and see the sear. Mine was barely visible and at that point would not be able to move any further up.
Even if you need to relieve the tube slot, it's an easy thing to do and the trigger functions as advertised. It's worth it. :)
Allan
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oh yeah i know its worth it
i have had a 1701p/p-rod trigger group on my 1377 since november 2011 and havent looked back.just got a 2240 and will be getting another trigger group and 1701p/p-rod striker.i should have went to the shop today and picked one up its just too dang hot out there,ill stay inside until the temps drop a few degrees
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best tool you guys can buy for airgun related stuff is a decent rotary tool
autozone sells a nice CHEAP quality built rotary tool that has a nice quality case, adjustable power, some attachments and its only $20 bucks and it also accept all dremel accessories.. even the flex shaft hobby extension thingy that gives it a smaller handle, a long flexable shaft so you can hung the rotary tool and use a small light weight peice to work with and not the bulk rotary tool
i can vouche for this tool because i own it and have had it running for han hour non stop before and it has taken all the hours of abuse and use and begs for more..
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Great-Neck-Rotary-tool-with-35-pcs-accessory-kit/_/N-25hs?itemIdentifier=945261_0_0_ (http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Great-Neck-Rotary-tool-with-35-pcs-accessory-kit/_/N-25hs?itemIdentifier=945261_0_0_)
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best tool you guys can buy for airgun related stuff is a decent rotary tool
autozone sells a nice CHEAP quality built rotary tool that has a nice quality case, adjustable power, some attachments and its only $20 bucks and it also accept all dremel accessories.. even the flex shaft hobby extension thingy that gives it a smaller handle, a long flexable shaft so you can hung the rotary tool and use a small light weight peice to work with and not the bulk rotary tool
i can vouche for this tool because i own it and have had it running for han hour non stop before and it has taken all the hours of abuse and use and begs for more..
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Great-Neck-Rotary-tool-with-35-pcs-accessory-kit/_/N-25hs?itemIdentifier=945261_0_0_ (http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Great-Neck-Rotary-tool-with-35-pcs-accessory-kit/_/N-25hs?itemIdentifier=945261_0_0_)
I'll second this. I bought a nice dremel for $100 and the $40 dremel stand. Makes it so fun to mess with your own stuff. So far I've shortened a few stainless screws that I put in my disco, attempted an aluminum single shot tray (unsuccessfully, but fun trying) and plan to put the proper sized recess in the prod hammer I have coming (jbweld isn't holding up the best).
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best tool you guys can buy for airgun related stuff is a decent rotary tool
autozone sells a nice CHEAP quality built rotary tool that has a nice quality case, adjustable power, some attachments and its only $20 bucks and it also accept all dremel accessories.. even the flex shaft hobby extension thingy that gives it a smaller handle, a long flexable shaft so you can hung the rotary tool and use a small light weight peice to work with and not the bulk rotary tool
i can vouche for this tool because i own it and have had it running for han hour non stop before and it has taken all the hours of abuse and use and begs for more..
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Great-Neck-Rotary-tool-with-35-pcs-accessory-kit/_/N-25hs?itemIdentifier=945261_0_0_ (http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Great-Neck-Rotary-tool-with-35-pcs-accessory-kit/_/N-25hs?itemIdentifier=945261_0_0_)
I'll second this. I bought a nice dremel for $100 and the $40 dremel stand. Makes it so fun to mess with your own stuff. So far I've shortened a few stainless screws that I put in my disco, attempted an aluminum single shot tray (unsuccessfully, but fun trying) and plan to put the proper sized recess in the prod hammer I have coming (jbweld isn't holding up the best).
ya i didnt put super glue over the jb weld on my disco hammer.. the og guy who i got the idea from used super glue as a final coat over the jb weld.. but that may be the secret to making the jb weld work
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yep! a rotary tool can be used for a lot of things outside of airguns as well
my cordless dremel was good until i lost the charger,then i got a rotary tool with a cord it has put in a lot of work the last couple of years
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Just stock up on bits, and remember the rotary tool from autozone is just as good as the real dremel and it uses ALL of the dremels attachments
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Mike, I just dremel'ed out the hammer. I used a couple of different bits (two different carbide ones and a regular sander). It took me about 15 minutes of grinding. I know to a machinist that is forever, but hey, I'm a dremel dude :D
[smg id=951]
[smg id=952]
[smg id=953]
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lol junky yours looks a thousand times better then mine. i wanted to make darn sure i cleared that breech screw because ive had a challenger hammer bend a breech screw.. if mine works and clears just fine i might in a couple of months order another one and give it a go at a nicer result..
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In case anyone needs it, here is a little guide on cutting down the prod hammer for non-machinists :)
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,33127.msg308213.html (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,33127.msg308213.html)
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i know this a 13xx thread but since i see posts of the striker and stock 22xx hammer together
one question please
what is the weight difference between the striker assembly and the hammer?
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the strike adds to the weight.. i like lloyd said the other day during a phone call that the challenger hammer and strike combo is 54grams or something like that.. their very close to the disco hammer
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since it was asked in another thread,i decided to mod a phase 1/2 1377 hammer assembly for use with the p-rod/1701p grip frame and trigger group
did the jbweld mod. charged and discharged the gun 250x with no wear to the jbweld .i dont know if it hits the sear
there is a lip in the front of the hammer and the back of the hammer is the same size of the lip. the middle doesnt really touch, if it does it is very little.
the tube mod or sear mod would be necessary to mount the gf successfully.i chose to mod the sear, if anything goes wrong with the sear i have a couple back-ups
i put the jbweld together with haste but let it cure for 48 hours.it could be smoother but dont know if it would make a difference
(http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt211/edf73/PC290371.jpg)
heres the gf/tg mounted to a phase 2 1377 tube
(http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt211/edf73/PC290363-1.jpg)
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what is the price tag on a prod trigger group?
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Just stock up on bits, and remember the rotary tool from autozone is just as good as the real dremel and it uses ALL of the dremels attachments
Thanks for that tip. To add to it, I bought a cheapy "dremel" from Harbor Freight many years ago. I still have it but barely use it because it has only one speed...high.
I have no issue at all with HF and bought a bunch of stuff from there, but Mike's pick is a much better option OMHO.
I would not recommend a non variable speed of any type.
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what is the price tag on a prod trigger group?
@$38.00
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what is the price tag on a prod trigger group?
@$38.00
nice! thanks, probably my next mod on my 55fpe 22xx, currently almost use a prybar because of my mad hammer spring.
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these can only be purchase from crosman right?
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these can only be purchase from crosman right?
Grip frame: 2220-103
Hammer: CH2009A009 - (or you can modify your existing hammer)
Striker: 1763A036 - (Or you can make one from a set-screw and LockTite it in place if using the above hammer and have no need to make stroke adjustments)
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i also use the p-rod tube cap. it needs to be drilled and tapped to fit the rear breach screw . the p-rod uses 2 screws on the sides instead of one in the center. and always remember to shorten the rear breach screw if not using a rear site. using the cap allows for the hammer and striker adjustments without any disassembly.
peace
kj
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The rear cap from a Challenger fits the Disco/22XX tube, doesn't need any changes to mount the breech, and you can get it with the velocity adjuster screw (which is drilled for the stroke adjustment) and it even comes with a spring (at least mine did).... Part # CH2009-120 for the complete assembly....
Bob
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Gota Love GTA!!! it's amazing the info you can get by simply reading.
Bob, you just saved me some work, in the morning, I was going to order the P-rod end cap(and other parts) then drill it for the extra breach screw.... not now ;)
THANKS!!!
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The PRod trigger assembly is available (only?) as a complete unit.... You will need either the PRod/Challenger hammer and striker or you can fill in the bottom of your 22XX hammer with JB Weld to eliminate the waist....
PRod Trigger group - 2220-103 (mine didn't come with the safety ball and spring, but it should have, likely fell out before shipping)
Hammer - CH2009A009
Striker - 1763A036
Acetal Pin - CH2009-023 (stops the striker from rotating - not necessary if you run it at max power - ie full CCW)
The trigger group shares the same grip frame as the later version of the 22XX trigger group (with the plastic side plate) and will bolt right up to a 22XX tube....
Bob
Dear rsterne,
I am planning to do the PRod trigger into a 2240. Before I call Crossman, would like to confirm that I need:
PRod Trigger group - 2220-103
Hammer - CH2009A009
Striker - 1763A036
Acetal Pin - CH2009-023
Plan on adding a power adjuster in the future.
Thank you !
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Instead of all the separate hammer parts, just order the assembly - CH2009‐110.
The PA also can be ordered as an assembly - CH2009‐120.
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Hello, excuse my english !! did as on my picture (surrounded in green) no need to press the trigger even with the hollow hammer:
(http://www.image-heberg.fr/files/1524474213215584728.jpg)
(http://www.image-heberg.fr/files/15244742541885220204.jpg)
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This is a great thread. Looks like I need to tinker with my 1377...
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That should work, I have thought of it before.... The only drawback is that the hammer must be withdrawn further to cock because of the sear sliding back.... This is only a problem if you are trying to achieve (or maintain) greater hammer travel, of course....
Bob
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OK, thanks !! I do not want to lighten my hammer too much! I can just make a hack down the hammer! it's possible? (http://www.image-heberg.fr/files/15247380641067909745.jpg)
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You can grind away part of a hammer to lighten it.... but unless you remove quite a large amount of metal you will not notice any significant difference....
Bob
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ok thank you very much bob! in fact I have a discovery with prod trigger group and prod hammer with bnm breech! I have MAGNUM VALVE for DISCOVERY! can you tell me if I put an ultra-light spring valve, it will work! or I have to lighten the hammer ,,,? I filled my disco with 2900 psi! There are custom valve screws on it !!
my question is: if I put an ultralight spring valve, I have to lighten the hammer?
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A lighter valve spring will make very little difference, most of the closing force on the poppet comes from air pressure, not the spring.... but you may have to reduce the hammer strike slightly to keep the same velocity.... Using a lighter valve spring in unregulated PCPs usually shortens up the usable pressure range for a given ES, so you may lose some shot count.... In regulated PCPs, you only need enough valve spring to seal the valve for your initial fill from empty....
Bob
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ok I understand ! thank you bob ;)
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one more thing ! if I reduce the hammer to lighten it by keeping the spring oem of the valve! I will not lose fps?
what are the best settings for a discovery and custom valve, 3000psi and power adjust and prod trigger group, prod hammer?
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Yes, lightening the hammer with no other changes will lose velocity.... Usually a turn more preload on the hammer spring will gain it back again.... There is no such thing as "best settings", that depends entirely on your goal, and the pellet weight used.... If you are going to use 3000 psi instead of 2000, you will likely need a heavier hammer, not lighter, and will probably need a much stronger hammer spring as well.... If the ports in the custom valve are large, then most likely you will need even more hammer strike to open it.... If you go far enough, the gun will become nearly impossible to cock....
There is a definite relationship between the FPE output of the gun and the hammer strike needed to produce that.... Unless you use a balanced valve design, more power means the gun will be harder to cock.... and in fact that can become the limiting factor on FPE and caliber for any PCP design....
Bob
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thank you bob for your information! I will try